Does Crystal Fragments Needs Adjustment?

universal_wrath · October 2019

First of all, my first toon every on ps4 was mag sorc and I was playing for 3 years since launch and moved to pc and I still create my sorc second toon there 2 years ago. By no mean I'm not asking for nerfs, and i don't have any peoblem with the skill. I like the skill a lot and I think it is inteeesting. I just want poeple to think a bit about what I'm saying. This thread is only for sharing thoughts which is why I have a question on title.

Solar flare is the closest thing to the original skill, different is first skill is plain and second grant empower. Real different is morphs

First one have a chance for stronger and cheaper instant cast skill, second grant empower and major defile.

For crystal fragment why does the proc make more dmg than the cast time part? I understand the cost decrease, but the dmg increase is just making the skill without the proc useless; bound armament mostly sloted for the passive and not the active making half of the skill useless, crystal fragment is sloted for the proc rather than the original skill making half of the skill useless as well.

I will just state my honest opinion and and feel free to disagree and try to convince me even.

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people can anticipite you attack and prepare a counter because they see you cocking the crystal fragment. The proc part does not have any risk reward thing, it is just reward for not using the original skill. I totally understand that the proc has a chance to proc. I had many fights were the skill procs 1 rime during whole fight and other instances it procs after any cast of a different skill. This still does not a good reason for people to use the proc over the cast time of crystal fragments.

Please let me know if I posted wrong information or if something not clear.

idk · October 2019

universal_wrath wrote: »

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people canar.

Why, because it does. One could argue that the amazing power that came to be granting the instant cast also increased the damage.

Regardless, the overall picture of the skill, how damage averages out, is what is more important. If you are going to compare skills that big picture is all that matters. Judging from what I have read here making a very biased comparison by focusing on the proc and ignoring the average of the skill.

The big part you are ignoring is a Templar will use Dark Flare when they want to. A skilled sorc will ignore frags until it procs which changes its usefulness.

sfpiesb14_ESO · October 2019

No. Crystal shard is fine the way it is. Reducing the damage would make this skill absolutely useless. Dark flare has 2 additional effects. Empower and defile. Cristal frags is just damage and that’s it so the damage should be high.

Iskiab · October 2019

Answer to the question depends on if you’re a sorc or not. I wouldn’t expect impartial answers on this forum.

Lokey0024 · October 2019

universal_wrath wrote: »

First of all, my first toon every on ps4 was mag sorc and I was playing for 3 years since launch and moved to pc and I still create my sorc second toon there 2 years ago. By no mean I'm not asking for nerfs, and i don't have any peoblem with the skill. I like the skill a lot and I think it is inteeesting. I just want poeple to think a bit about what I'm saying. This thread is only for sharing thoughts which is why I have a question on title.

Solar flare is the closest thing to the original skill, different is first skill is plain and second grant empower. Real different is morphs

First one have a chance for stronger and cheaper instant cast skill, second grant empower and major defile.

For crystal fragment why does the proc make more dmg than the cast time part? I understand the cost decrease, but the dmg increase is just making the skill without the proc useless; bound armament mostly sloted for the passive and not the active making half of the skill useless, crystal fragment is sloted for the proc rather than the original skill making half of the skill useless as well.

I will just state my honest opinion and and feel free to disagree and try to convince me even.

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people can anticipite you attack and prepare a counter because they see you cocking the crystal fragment. The proc part does not have any risk reward thing, it is just reward for not using the original skill. I totally understand that the proc has a chance to proc. I had many fights were the skill procs 1 rime during whole fight and other instances it procs after any cast of a different skill. This still does not a good reason for people to use the proc over the cast time of crystal fragments.

Please let me know if I posted wrong information or if something not clear.

Sorc nerf? Here come the essays on how your wrong and it needs a buff.

the1andonlyskwex · October 2019

I think a more interesting comparison to Dark Flare is Crystal Blast. Crystal Blast does the same base damage as Dark Flare, but stuns the target and does AoE damage (equal to it's single target damage). I think those are way better than AoE Defile and one buffed light attack.

Given that, it's notable that Crystal Blast is practically considered a dead morph that nobody uses.

Personally, I would say that Dark Flare needs a buff, if Templars weren't already so strong because of the rest of their kit.

Celestro · October 2019

Uh. You mention not wanting to nerf the skill but then that's basically what the change you suggested does.

Besides that, I kind of see where you're coming from but ultimately, what it amounts to is that Crystal Shard and its morphs just don't have a lot going for them, especially when comparing them to Solar Flare and its morphs. Besides the abilities present within the skills themselves, the passive skills when using Dark Flare (ult gen , increased duration and Minor Sorcery) vs Crystal Fragment (or even Crystal Blast which is a better comparison given its disposition towards PvP with a heal scaling off max Health, 2% weapon/spell damage and Minor Prophecy) are better as well when using Dark Flare. Even just one Empowered Light attack following causes Dark Flare to effectively provide more damage dealt overall after every use, but Crystal Fragments proc only benefits 35% of the time.

There are more suitable stun options that aren't attached to a cast time ability for sorcs as far as Crystal Blast goes and Major Defile is pretty desirable in PvP. I see more people using Crystal Fragments in PvP than the other morph, so it all kind of speaks for itself.

universal_wrath · October 2019

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

No. Crystal shard is fine the way it is. Reducing the damage would make this skill absolutely useless. Dark flare has 2 additional effects. Empower and defile. Cristal frags is just damage and that’s it so the damage should be high.

You reverting back the stun make it viable?

universal_wrath · October 2019

idk wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people canar.

Why, because it does. One could argue that the amazing power that came to be granting the instant cast also increased the damage.

Regardless, the overall picture of the skill, how damage averages out, is what is more important. If you are going to compare skills that big picture is all that matters. Judging from what I have read here making a very biased comparison by focusing on the proc and ignoring the average of the skill.

The big part you are ignoring is a Templar will use Dark Flare when they want to. A skilled sorc will ignore frags until it procs which changes its usefulness.

That what I'm saying, why would use the cast time part of crystal fragment over the proc part?

GrimTheReaper45 · October 2019

just leave, *** frag alone. sorc needs at least 1 *** skill that doesnt suck

universal_wrath · October 2019

Celestro wrote: »

Uh. You mention not wanting to nerf the skill but then that's basically what the change you suggested does.

Besides that, I kind of see where you're coming from but ultimately, what it amounts to is that Crystal Shard and its morphs just don't have a lot going for them, especially when comparing them to Solar Flare and its morphs. Besides the abilities present within the skills themselves, the passive skills when using Dark Flare (ult gen , increased duration and Minor Sorcery) vs Crystal Fragment (or even Crystal Blast which is a better comparison given its disposition towards PvP with a heal scaling off max Health, 2% weapon/spell damage and Minor Prophecy) are better as well when using Dark Flare. Even just one Empowered Light attack following causes Dark Flare to effectively provide more damage dealt overall after every use, but Crystal Fragments proc only benefits 35% of the time.

There are more suitable stun options that aren't attached to a cast time ability for sorcs as far as Crystal Blast goes and Major Defile is pretty desirable in PvP. I see more people using Crystal Fragments in PvP than the other morph, so it all kind of speaks for itself.

As I said, this is a discussion, thoughts sahring thread, I'm not call for nerfs. As for passives, if you disregard them, how would you fare the two skill? Because as far as passive, sorcerers passives are obsolete in comperison to other classes.

universal_wrath · October 2019

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

just leave, *** frag alone. sorc needs at least 1 *** skill that doesnt suck

Invalid

universal_wrath · October 2019

Celestro wrote: »

Uh. You mention not wanting to nerf the skill but then that's basically what the change you suggested does.

Besides that, I kind of see where you're coming from but ultimately, what it amounts to is that Crystal Shard and its morphs just don't have a lot going for them, especially when comparing them to Solar Flare and its morphs. Besides the abilities present within the skills themselves, the passive skills when using Dark Flare (ult gen , increased duration and Minor Sorcery) vs Crystal Fragment (or even Crystal Blast which is a better comparison given its disposition towards PvP with a heal scaling off max Health, 2% weapon/spell damage and Minor Prophecy) are better as well when using Dark Flare. Even just one Empowered Light attack following causes Dark Flare to effectively provide more damage dealt overall after every use, but Crystal Fragments proc only benefits 35% of the time.

There are more suitable stun options that aren't attached to a cast time ability for sorcs as far as Crystal Blast goes and Major Defile is pretty desirable in PvP. I see more people using Crystal Fragments in PvP than the other morph, so it all kind of speaks for itself.

May I should have put the thread somewhere else like in general dusicssion or combat and stuff instead of PTS.

Olupajmibanan · October 2019

Your comparison doesn't make sense. Crystal Fragments belongs to the family of instant cast hard hitting abilities. These abilities require a condition to be met.
Some abilities from this family:
- Grim Focus, needs 5 light attacks before being able to fire the arrow
- Bound Armaments, need at least one light attack before being able to fire a dagger. The more LAs you do, the more daggers you are able to fire at once, up to 4
- Crystal Fragments, needs to keep casting other abilities while on the bar with CF until you get the proc. Statisticaly, every fifth ability is a guaranteed proc.

And when do the right comparison (Grim Focus vs Bound Armaments vs CFrags) you'll see there is nothing wrong with CF. It has easier proc condition, but does less damage and has no additional effects.

LiquidPony · October 2019

universal_wrath wrote: »

First of all, my first toon every on ps4 was mag sorc and I was playing for 3 years since launch and moved to pc and I still create my sorc second toon there 2 years ago. By no mean I'm not asking for nerfs, and i don't have any peoblem with the skill. I like the skill a lot and I think it is inteeesting. I just want poeple to think a bit about what I'm saying. This thread is only for sharing thoughts which is why I have a question on title.

Solar flare is the closest thing to the original skill, different is first skill is plain and second grant empower. Real different is morphs

First one have a chance for stronger and cheaper instant cast skill, second grant empower and major defile.

For crystal fragment why does the proc make more dmg than the cast time part? I understand the cost decrease, but the dmg increase is just making the skill without the proc useless; bound armament mostly sloted for the passive and not the active making half of the skill useless, crystal fragment is sloted for the proc rather than the original skill making half of the skill useless as well.

I will just state my honest opinion and and feel free to disagree and try to convince me even.

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people can anticipite you attack and prepare a counter because they see you cocking the crystal fragment. The proc part does not have any risk reward thing, it is just reward for not using the original skill. I totally understand that the proc has a chance to proc. I had many fights were the skill procs 1 rime during whole fight and other instances it procs after any cast of a different skill. This still does not a good reason for people to use the proc over the cast time of crystal fragments.

Please let me know if I posted wrong information or if something not clear.

What are you even talking about?

Frags is stronger because it's a proc. You say you "understand that the proc has a chance to proc", but clearly you don't.

You're comparing to the wrong skills. Compare to the proc from Grim Focus morphs or from Bound Armaments.

bound armament mostly sloted for the passive and not the active making half of the skill useles

lolwutt? Have you even used the new Bound Armaments on PTS? The "active" part of the skill, the proc, is incredibly strong.

Vahrokh · October 2019

Does Crystal Fragments Needs Adjustment?

Yes, it should get the stun back.

ealdwin · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Does Crystal Fragments Needs Adjustment?

Yes, it should get the stun back.

Second that motion.

Derra · October 2019

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I think a more interesting comparison to Dark Flare is Crystal Blast. Crystal Blast does the same base damage as Dark Flare, but stuns the target and does AoE damage (equal to it's single target damage). I think those are way better than AoE Defile and one buffed light attack.

Given that, it's notable that Crystal Blast is practically considered a dead morph that nobody uses.

Personally, I would say that Dark Flare needs a buff, if Templars weren't already so strong because of the rest of their kit.

^ this one here gets the picture.

NyassaV · October 2019

Frags is the one sorc skill that should never be touched again.

idk · October 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Answer to the question depends on if you’re a sorc or not. I wouldn’t expect impartial answers on this forum.

OP is making a comparison as though frags is proced 100% of the time and that is false no matter what class you prefer to play. It is just a bad comparison from the foundation due to poor methodology.

universal_wrath · October 2019

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Your comparison doesn't make sense. Crystal Fragments belongs to the family of instant cast hard hitting abilities. These abilities require a condition to be met.
Some abilities from this family:
- Grim Focus, needs 5 light attacks before being able to fire the arrow
- Bound Armaments, need at least one light attack before being able to fire a dagger. The more LAs you do, the more daggers you are able to fire at once, up to 4
- Crystal Fragments, needs to keep casting other abilities while on the bar with CF until you get the proc. Statisticaly, every fifth ability is a guaranteed proc.

And when do the right comparison (Grim Focus vs Bound Armaments vs CFrags) you'll see there is nothing wrong with CF. It has easier proc condition, but does less damage and has no additional effects.

The abilities you mentioned beside crystal fragments are garnteed proc, if you do this part, you get this 100% garnteed. As for crystal fragments it works purely on luck and it need to be on the bar you are castong the spells on unlike grim forcus for instant were you can back bar it if you want to. Beside that other skills mentioned deals little to no damage when activiated and you get the power of the proc when you meet the conditions. Crystal fragment already have a part that deals signeficant dmg and its proc only increase the dmg by 33%. As for actual skills effect, grim focus is plain buff to activie the proc it, the healing part almost never work because the range small and scale of max heal i think 20-25% of max HP. Crystal fragment proc effect is alread have 4 components: faster movement speed than normal crystal fragments, 50% cheaper, 33% stronger, and instnat cast.

Aside from that, I don't think there is a condition or mechanic for crystal fragment that garntee proc after every 5th cast.

Bergzorn · October 2019

universal_wrath wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Your comparison doesn't make sense. Crystal Fragments belongs to the family of instant cast hard hitting abilities. These abilities require a condition to be met.
Some abilities from this family:
- Grim Focus, needs 5 light attacks before being able to fire the arrow
- Bound Armaments, need at least one light attack before being able to fire a dagger. The more LAs you do, the more daggers you are able to fire at once, up to 4
- Crystal Fragments, needs to keep casting other abilities while on the bar with CF until you get the proc. Statisticaly, every fifth ability is a guaranteed proc.

And when do the right comparison (Grim Focus vs Bound Armaments vs CFrags) you'll see there is nothing wrong with CF. It has easier proc condition, but does less damage and has no additional effects.

Aside from that, I don't think there is a condition or mechanic for crystal fragment that garntee proc after every 5th cast.

They said statistically guaranteed (without defining it properly, however). Not getting a proc from casting five abilities on the frag bar has a probability of about 12.5%, we could call that insignificant and neglect it for the sake of the argument.

Edit: I'd also like the blockable, dodgeable stun back pls.

universal_wrath · October 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

First of all, my first toon every on ps4 was mag sorc and I was playing for 3 years since launch and moved to pc and I still create my sorc second toon there 2 years ago. By no mean I'm not asking for nerfs, and i don't have any peoblem with the skill. I like the skill a lot and I think it is inteeesting. I just want poeple to think a bit about what I'm saying. This thread is only for sharing thoughts which is why I have a question on title.

Solar flare is the closest thing to the original skill, different is first skill is plain and second grant empower. Real different is morphs

First one have a chance for stronger and cheaper instant cast skill, second grant empower and major defile.

For crystal fragment why does the proc make more dmg than the cast time part? I understand the cost decrease, but the dmg increase is just making the skill without the proc useless; bound armament mostly sloted for the passive and not the active making half of the skill useless, crystal fragment is sloted for the proc rather than the original skill making half of the skill useless as well.

I will just state my honest opinion and and feel free to disagree and try to convince me even.

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people can anticipite you attack and prepare a counter because they see you cocking the crystal fragment. The proc part does not have any risk reward thing, it is just reward for not using the original skill. I totally understand that the proc has a chance to proc. I had many fights were the skill procs 1 rime during whole fight and other instances it procs after any cast of a different skill. This still does not a good reason for people to use the proc over the cast time of crystal fragments.

Please let me know if I posted wrong information or if something not clear.

universal_wrath wrote: »

First of all, my first toon every on ps4 was mag sorc and I was playing for 3 years since launch and moved to pc and I still create my sorc second toon there 2 years ago. By no mean I'm not asking for nerfs, and i don't have any peoblem with the skill. I like the skill a lot and I think it is inteeesting. I just want poeple to think a bit about what I'm saying. This thread is only for sharing thoughts which is why I have a question on title.

Solar flare is the closest thing to the original skill, different is first skill is plain and second grant empower. Real different is morphs

First one have a chance for stronger and cheaper instant cast skill, second grant empower and major defile.

For crystal fragment why does the proc make more dmg than the cast time part? I understand the cost decrease, but the dmg increase is just making the skill without the proc useless; bound armament mostly sloted for the passive and not the active making half of the skill useless, crystal fragment is sloted for the proc rather than the original skill making half of the skill useless as well.

I will just state my honest opinion and and feel free to disagree and try to convince me even.

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people can anticipite you attack and prepare a counter because they see you cocking the crystal fragment. The proc part does not have any risk reward thing, it is just reward for not using the original skill. I totally understand that the proc has a chance to proc. I had many fights were the skill procs 1 rime during whole fight and other instances it procs after any cast of a different skill. This still does not a good reason for people to use the proc over the cast time of crystal fragments.

Please let me know if I posted wrong information or if something not clear.

What are you even talking about?

Frags is stronger because it's a proc. You say you "understand that the proc has a chance to proc", but clearly you don't.

You're comparing to the wrong skills. Compare to the proc from Grim Focus morphs or from Bound Armaments.

[quoote]bound armament mostly sloted for the passive and not the active making half of the skill useles

lolwutt? Have you even used the new Bound Armaments on PTS? The "active" part of the skill, the proc, is incredibly strong.[/quote]

I'm not talking about the PTS version of bound armaments, I'm talking about the live version. Yes, you are correct, the new PTS bound armament is strong both active amd passive. Itried in both pvp and pve, beside the noisy sound for each proc, the active padt makes the skill complete.

Even if I compare crystal fragments to bound armaments PTS version or grim focus, it still would not make any sense. Bound armament and grim focus have 0 zero dmg when you first use the skill and you get amount of dmg when they proc, you cannot keep spamming boun armament or grim focus and expect to do dmg unlike crystal fragments were you do a lot of dmg, provided that it is a cast time. See my point yet?

Emma_Overload · October 2019

universal_wrath wrote: »

idk wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people canar.

Why, because it does. One could argue that the amazing power that came to be granting the instant cast also increased the damage.

Regardless, the overall picture of the skill, how damage averages out, is what is more important. If you are going to compare skills that big picture is all that matters. Judging from what I have read here making a very biased comparison by focusing on the proc and ignoring the average of the skill.

The big part you are ignoring is a Templar will use Dark Flare when they want to. A skilled sorc will ignore frags until it procs which changes its usefulness.

That what I'm saying, why would use the cast time part of crystal fragment over the proc part?

It doesn't matter what the damage is, nobody is going to use either morph with a cast time in PvP. I've tried it recently to see if there were any improvements, and it DOES NOT WORK. You can't hit ANY moving targets with a cast Frag. They don't even have to dodge because the Frag never even leaves your hands!

ZOS would need to rework how cast Frags work to make them viable, and they would probably have to make them uninterruptible, too.

universal_wrath · October 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

Frags is the one sorc skill that should never be touched again.

I totaly disagree

universal_wrath · October 2019

idk wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Answer to the question depends on if you’re a sorc or not. I wouldn’t expect impartial answers on this forum.

OP is making a comparison as though frags is proced 100% of the time and that is false no matter what class you prefer to play. It is just a bad comparison from the foundation due to poor methodology.

I did mention that crystal fragments works on luck purely. I did the comparison while I have that in mind. How would compare it if you were me? And on what basis?

universal_wrath · October 2019

Everyone that play sorcerer and uses crystal fragments skill know the the cast time part of the skill is useless and waste of time, because the proc is way stronger.

idk · October 2019

universal_wrath wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Answer to the question depends on if you’re a sorc or not. I wouldn’t expect impartial answers on this forum.

OP is making a comparison as though frags is proced 100% of the time and that is false no matter what class you prefer to play. It is just a bad comparison from the foundation due to poor methodology.

I did mention that crystal fragments works on luck purely. I did the comparison while I have that in mind. How would compare it if you were me? And on what basis?

Your comparison is solely based on the proc and nothing else.

There really is not an easy way to compare them as the skills are very different. One is at will. The other is when it procs which is not always when one wants it. You are comparing apples to oranges.

sfpiesb14_ESO · October 2019

universal_wrath wrote: »

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

No. Crystal shard is fine the way it is. Reducing the damage would make this skill absolutely useless. Dark flare has 2 additional effects. Empower and defile. Cristal frags is just damage and that’s it so the damage should be high.

You reverting back the stun make it viable?

I never mentioned the stun. I said it’s fine the way it is.

CambionDaemon · October 2019

Because the proc is 'random' it should have its stun back and possibly it's damage increased. Skills with cast times could be made undodgeable (but still blockable).

Joy_Division · October 2019

Yes, it needs to be adjusted to how it was at Launch.