Does Crystal Fragments Needs Adjustment?

Chelo

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Your comparison doesn't make sense. Crystal Fragments belongs to the family of instant cast hard hitting abilities. These abilities require a condition to be met.
Some abilities from this family:
- Grim Focus, needs 5 light attacks before being able to fire the arrow
- Bound Armaments, need at least one light attack before being able to fire a dagger. The more LAs you do, the more daggers you are able to fire at once, up to 4
- Crystal Fragments, needs to keep casting other abilities while on the bar with CF until you get the proc. Statisticaly, every fifth ability is a guaranteed proc.

And when do the right comparison (Grim Focus vs Bound Armaments vs CFrags) you'll see there is nothing wrong with CF. It has easier proc condition, but does less damage and has no additional effects.

Glad finally someone said it... His comparison was wrong from the start. No idea why people keep arguing if the whole premise is false...

f047ys3v3n

Trying to balance individual skills instead of overall class effectiveness is what has gotten us in the mess we are currently in.

Remember:
Sure, cheap, high damage, high heal, funnel healths were an overpowered skill on a nb. Of course, NB's DOT's were garbage as was it's execute and ultimates (PVE.) I'm not exaggerating when I say that, for a long while, before the multi-procing merciless resolve, the funnel health group utility was the soul reason to bring them to raids and they were worth bringing. ZOS fixed the funnel health "problem" but NB needed had it to offset other deficiencies. It's hot garbage now and I haven't run it in PVE for more than a year because it doesn't do anything well.

Comparing frag to one particular Templar skill and trying to make it the same is not balance it is equalization. Yes, frags is basically better than dark flare, so what. Mages wrath is a useless PVE execute and radiant oppression is BIS. Better nerf that. All this line of thinking will get you to is having no class identity. We are getting closer to that and it is not much fun.

Zabagad

Bergzorn wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Aside from that, I don't think there is a condition or mechanic for crystal fragment that garntee proc after every 5th cast.

They said statistically guaranteed (without defining it properly, however). Not getting a proc from casting five abilities on the frag bar has a probability of about 12.5%, we could call that insignificant and neglect it for the sake of the argument.

At least for me this is a huge difference.
It sounds like 7 out of 8 is something you can "neglect", but for me the "bad part" on it is not the 1 out of 8.
If I would get extra dmg in 7 of 8 cases, I would agree to your "neglect" statement.

But the "bad part" for me is, if I have a 100% proc after using 5 skills, I can make a "perfect" rotation which relies on Frag as the 6th skill.
But like it is, I have to react proper to the actual status on frags during that rotation. So that will cost me at least something to decide: Can I use it, or not?
Otherwise I start hardcasting frags and lose time. (or have to react fast to cancel it - but lose again some time)

So I'm affected in 8 of 8 cases - not just in 1.

All that is maybe not much for you, but for me (untalented AvA lvl 14 and so still a learning player and I guess with not the best reaction times) this is a big difference and i cant "neglect" it all.
I assume that even for the "Top-Player" with a faster reaction time there is at least a difference?
Even if not - then this is at least a seperator between the good and the bad...

My answer to OP: NO - stop touching frags at all.

WrathOfInnos

While I can see how you would compare the unmorphed versions of these skills, the morphed Crystal Fragments and Dark Flare are very different skills. Nobody does a hard cast of Crystal Frags, it exists as a random proc for a high-damage, low-cost burst. It is effectively the same thing as Nightblade’s Assassin’s Will/Scourge or Stam Sorc’s new Bound Armaments. Keep in mind that Frags has some RNG that the other skills do not rely on, and that it does not really proc after 1/3 of skills because you must be on the same skill bar when casting another Magicka ability. Frags also can only proc from skills that cost Magicka (not Barbed Trap, Dark Exchange, Spell Sym, Ele Drain, etc.) while other similar skills build up charges after anything with a GCD. Best case you are looking at a Frag Proc every 5-6 skills on average, vs 5 on Assassin’s or 4 on Armaments. And the other skills have additional effects, while Frags is only damage (not counting effects from skill line passives).

Edit: To answer the question, I don’t really think it needs an adjustment. If any adjustment is made, it should be a minimum of 14% damage increase to bring it in line with Merciless Resolve, possibly more to account for the lack of secondary effects (mitigation and healing).

jcm2606

"This isn't a nerf thread, I want the damage reduced, but it isn't a nerf thread, I promise!"

Basically sums up this thread in a nutshell.

In short...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyU1a4c1Tdk

@f047ys3v3n hit the nail on the *** head. You're not balancing, you're equalising, you're homogenising. The game has seen enough of that, and we are in this spot because people keep crying about every little thing that kills them in this game, comparing to alternatives in pure vacuums, not taking into consideration the interaction between the rest of the kit, or even how the damn skill is used in the first place.

I'm getting real tired of coming on the forums, and seeing a new nerf thread about something that has never been complained about, because the OP refuses to L2P, and wants the entire game to revolve around them.

Your OP reads exactly like one of those threads, complete with the pure vacuum comparisons to a skill another class has, with no consideration of the rest of the kit or how the skill is used, that is aimed squarely at nerfing Frags.

You can say it isn't a nerf thread, but when you say you want the damage reduced or whatever to bring it in line with Dark Flare (no matter how wrong the comparison even is), it is a nerf thread. You can maybe convince yourself that it isn't, but you sure as hell ain't convincing anybody else.

So, again, in short, no, no, hell no, no, no, I refu-- no, no, *** off.

Zer0_CooL

Yes, it needs! Nerf it asap

Vapirko

No, it is absolutely fine as is. The only thing in need of an adjustment is the mentality of this community.

coradaelu

Your Thoughts It's the opposite as Dev wants, they already nerfed the damage on the cast time but increase the damage on proc for balance.. because that's the way they want it to be used also they removed the stun too, a skill with good damage should not have CC (except ultimates), Sorc they used to be more tanks before so they increase the damage slighly (that's was mentioned for the damage shield changes), they are doing a good balance but I doubt what this thread proposes, is not in the right direction.

Juhasow

Vahrokh wrote: »

Does Crystal Fragments Needs Adjustment?

Yes, it should get the stun back.

It really shouldnt. Game balance is not a vacuum. Lot of thngs have changed since crystal frag stun was removed and giving it back right now would make it kinda broken and also would go against ZoS's idea of high burst damage ability not being tied to CCs. Lets be honest it was fun to use but also extremly powerfull combo and currently when we recived abilities like Elemental Weapon and overload changes plus many other things it would be just too much. I mean many people is complaining about tank meta but tank meta exists also because combos like that are possible so people wants to prevent themselves from dying to it and basically everyone who isnt a tank would simply die to combo of curse+overload+frag+ele weapon+overload+endless fury all in 1 second while enemy is also stunned.

Alienoutlaw

works fine leave it alone

Nordic__Knights

Ill give you the only change it needs YOU LEAVING THE GAME zenimax should remove everyone who ask for NURFS to any skill but listen to them that ask for skills to be BUFFED at an small amount to help it improve an CLASS or for something that that CLASS is Missing be added to an skill
The only person that should beable to say hey this skill an lil to much is CLASS reps that should be their pay out for the work they do as they could then use open feedback to help development make an better game for us to enjoy ok ty now you may go bye

Chilly-McFreeze

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

Ill give you the only change it needs YOU LEAVING THE GAME zenimax should remove everyone who ask for NURFS to any skill but listen to them that ask for skills to be BUFFED at an small amount to help it improve an CLASS or for something that that CLASS is Missing be added to an skill
The only person that should beable to say hey this skill an lil to much is CLASS reps that should be their pay out for the work they do as they could then use open feedback to help development make an better game for us to enjoy ok ty now you may go bye

Ironic

Stibbons

Dark Flare is really underperforming. It needs a buff.

Juhasow

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

Ill give you the only change it needs YOU LEAVING THE GAME zenimax should remove everyone who ask for NURFS to any skill but listen to them that ask for skills to be BUFFED at an small amount to help it improve an CLASS or for something that that CLASS is Missing be added to an skill
The only person that should beable to say hey this skill an lil to much is CLASS reps that should be their pay out for the work they do as they could then use open feedback to help development make an better game for us to enjoy ok ty now you may go bye

Buffs and nerfs are equally important for game balance. Not understanding that is not understanding the balance itself. Buffs to one build may be very often nerfs to another since balancing is not happening in the vacuum. It's not as simple as "buffs good , nerfs bad".

Also I think still many people dont understand what are the duties of class reps.

MCBIZZLE300

I don't play magsorc but i thing they should give the stun back to frags since flame reach has been butchered. Magsorcs arent very good anymore in pvp.

RighteousBacon

universal_wrath wrote: »

First of all, my first toon every on ps4 was mag sorc and I was playing for 3 years since launch and moved to pc and I still create my sorc second toon there 2 years ago. By no mean I'm not asking for nerfs, and i don't have any peoblem with the skill. I like the skill a lot and I think it is inteeesting. I just want poeple to think a bit about what I'm saying. This thread is only for sharing thoughts which is why I have a question on title.




Solar flare is the closest thing to the original skill, different is first skill is plain and second grant empower. Real different is morphs




First one have a chance for stronger and cheaper instant cast skill, second grant empower and major defile.

For crystal fragment why does the proc make more dmg than the cast time part? I understand the cost decrease, but the dmg increase is just making the skill without the proc useless; bound armament mostly sloted for the passive and not the active making half of the skill useless, crystal fragment is sloted for the proc rather than the original skill making half of the skill useless as well.

I will just state my honest opinion and and feel free to disagree and try to convince me even.

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people can anticipite you attack and prepare a counter because they see you cocking the crystal fragment. The proc part does not have any risk reward thing, it is just reward for not using the original skill. I totally understand that the proc has a chance to proc. I had many fights were the skill procs 1 rime during whole fight and other instances it procs after any cast of a different skill. This still does not a good reason for people to use the proc over the cast time of crystal fragments.

Please let me know if I posted wrong information or if something not clear.

Crystal frag is great rn, it adds a unique play style to sorc. Someone who is asking for it to be looked at obviously hasn’t been around for long and shouldn’t be taken too seriously in my opinion.

idk

universal_wrath wrote: »

idk wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people canar.

Why, because it does. One could argue that the amazing power that came to be granting the instant cast also increased the damage.

Regardless, the overall picture of the skill, how damage averages out, is what is more important. If you are going to compare skills that big picture is all that matters. Judging from what I have read here making a very biased comparison by focusing on the proc and ignoring the average of the skill.

The big part you are ignoring is a Templar will use Dark Flare when they want to. A skilled sorc will ignore frags until it procs which changes its usefulness.

That what I'm saying, why would use the cast time part of crystal fragment over the proc part?

An experienced player would not. However, it is theoretically balanced with the current design of the skill. Further, if this is what you are attempting to say then the comparison to the Templar skill is even more out of place as there really is little that is similar.

PhoenixGrey

Iskiab wrote: »

Answer to the question depends on if you’re garbage at the game or not. I wouldn’t expect impartial answers on this forum.

I cannot stress this enough

universal_wrath

jcm2606 wrote: »

"This isn't a nerf thread, I want the damage reduced, but it isn't a nerf thread, I promise!"

Basically sums up this thread in a nutshell.

In short...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyU1a4c1Tdk

@f047ys3v3n hit the nail on the *** head. You're not balancing, you're equalising, you're homogenising. The game has seen enough of that, and we are in this spot because people keep crying about every little thing that kills them in this game, comparing to alternatives in pure vacuums, not taking into consideration the interaction between the rest of the kit, or even how the damn skill is used in the first place.

I'm getting real tired of coming on the forums, and seeing a new nerf thread about something that has never been complained about, because the OP refuses to L2P, and wants the entire game to revolve around them.

Your OP reads exactly like one of those threads, complete with the pure vacuum comparisons to a skill another class has, with no consideration of the rest of the kit or how the skill is used, that is aimed squarely at nerfing Frags.

You can say it isn't a nerf thread, but when you say you want the damage reduced or whatever to bring it in line with Dark Flare (no matter how wrong the comparison even is), it is a nerf thread. You can maybe convince yourself that it isn't, but you sure as hell ain't convincing anybody else.

So, again, in short, no, no, hell no, no, no, I refu-- no, no, *** off.

I never mentioned I have problem playing against the skill. In fact it is one of my favorite skills in game, but I guess everyone who doesn't share your opinion is a *** or noob, and need to L2P, right?

I have been playing sorcerer for 4 years now and I now everything that class offers as both magicka DD, stamina DD, tank and healer. L2P is simply ignorant comment.

universal_wrath

Vapirko wrote: »

No, it is absolutely fine as is. The only thing in need of an adjustment is the mentality of this community.

Why? What is your reasoning behind that thought?

universal_wrath

coradaelu wrote: »

Your Thoughts It's the opposite as Dev wants, they already nerfed the damage on the cast time but increase the damage on proc for balance.. because that's the way they want it to be used also they removed the stun too, a skill with good damage should not have CC (except ultimates), Sorc they used to be more tanks before so they increase the damage slighly (that's was mentioned for the damage shield changes), they are doing a good balance but I doubt what this thread proposes, is not in the right direction.

But it's cast time abilites do more dmg than instant cast? Doesn't make sense for dev to reduce their dmg because of risk of being interupt and easily dodge or blocked.

universal_wrath

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

Ill give you the only change it needs YOU LEAVING THE GAME zenimax should remove everyone who ask for NURFS to any skill but listen to them that ask for skills to be BUFFED at an small amount to help it improve an CLASS or for something that that CLASS is Missing be added to an skill
The only person that should beable to say hey this skill an lil to much is CLASS reps that should be their pay out for the work they do as they could then use open feedback to help development make an better game for us to enjoy ok ty now you may go bye

How is the class rep different from you and me? What if the class rep voted for crystal fragment nerf, would you agree then? There is no rule says people should not express their thoughts or opinions, and I simply shared mine or 4 years sorcerer. It is alright to disrgree, if we all have same thoughts then there will be no improvnent.

Chilly-McFreeze

It was said often before but I want to make sure: Do you share the opinion that the getting it to proc (or not) is the risk and the dmg and insta cast are the rewards for revolving your combo around that random proc that might not even happen when you need it?

If you want to make the cast time part more meaningful add something to that, which get's stripped off when the proc happens. Adjust cost accordingly. But honestly, the skill is fine as is.

universal_wrath

RighteousBacon wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

First of all, my first toon every on ps4 was mag sorc and I was playing for 3 years since launch and moved to pc and I still create my sorc second toon there 2 years ago. By no mean I'm not asking for nerfs, and i don't have any peoblem with the skill. I like the skill a lot and I think it is inteeesting. I just want poeple to think a bit about what I'm saying. This thread is only for sharing thoughts which is why I have a question on title.




Solar flare is the closest thing to the original skill, different is first skill is plain and second grant empower. Real different is morphs




First one have a chance for stronger and cheaper instant cast skill, second grant empower and major defile.

For crystal fragment why does the proc make more dmg than the cast time part? I understand the cost decrease, but the dmg increase is just making the skill without the proc useless; bound armament mostly sloted for the passive and not the active making half of the skill useless, crystal fragment is sloted for the proc rather than the original skill making half of the skill useless as well.

I will just state my honest opinion and and feel free to disagree and try to convince me even.

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people can anticipite you attack and prepare a counter because they see you cocking the crystal fragment. The proc part does not have any risk reward thing, it is just reward for not using the original skill. I totally understand that the proc has a chance to proc. I had many fights were the skill procs 1 rime during whole fight and other instances it procs after any cast of a different skill. This still does not a good reason for people to use the proc over the cast time of crystal fragments.

Please let me know if I posted wrong information or if something not clear.

Crystal frag is great rn, it adds a unique play style to sorc. Someone who is asking for it to be looked at obviously hasn’t been around for long and shouldn’t be taken too seriously in my opinion.

I still adds unique play style even if it's dmg reduced, or is it not? 4 years into the game as sorcerer while the game is 5 years old, I don't how long do you need me to be in order to validate my opinion. Still, it doesn't matter what happened 2 or 5 years ago or how many time CF got nerfed or buffed, what matter is now. Anyone who is playing sorcerer for atleast good 1 year or so should have a valid opinion and can express their thought of the class.

Celestro

The way I see it, if it was instant it would probably receive a decent damage decrease and/or a cost increase, opposite to the proc condition. That 35% chance to proc is effectively 11.55% (.35 * 33%) additional damage and 17.5% (.35 * 50%) cost reduction, which could factor into the hypothetical instant Crystal Fragments version. I dunno what the end result would be exactly but I'd still see it doing less damage and costing a bit more. Now imagine if you could only benefit from using it 35% of the time. I'd expect a condition like that to come with something special, like more damage and/or less cost, which is the current Crystal Fragments and in a different way operate like Grim Focus, Bound Armaments, etc.

On another note, the morph could've just been extra damage and lower cost like some other skill morphs work but I guess they wanted to make it unique (good thing too since then both cast time skill morphs probably wouldn't be used).

universal_wrath

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

It was said often before but I want to make sure: Do you share the opinion that the getting it to proc (or not) is the risk and the dmg and insta cast are the rewards for revolving your combo around that random proc that might not even happen when you need it?

If you want to make the cast time part more meaningful add something to that, which get's stripped off when the proc happens. Adjust cost accordingly. But honestly, the skill is fine as is.

Thank you.

MehrunesFlagon

NyassaV wrote: »

Frags is the one sorc skill that should never be touched again.

I agree with this except one part.Remove the hard cast entirely and make it dependent on proc.Add the ability to proc off of back bar as well.

universal_wrath

Celestro wrote: »

The way I see it, if it was instant it would probably receive a decent damage decrease and/or a cost increase, opposite to the proc condition. That 35% chance to proc is effectively 11.55% (.35 * 33%) additional damage and 17.5% (.35 * 50%) cost reduction, which could factor into the hypothetical instant Crystal Fragments version. I dunno what the end result would be exactly but I'd still see it doing less damage and costing a bit more. Now imagine if you could only benefit from using it 35% of the time. I'd expect a condition like that to come with something special, like more damage and/or less cost, which is the current Crystal Fragments and in a different way operate like Grim Focus, Bound Armaments, etc.

On another note, the morph could've just been extra damage and lower cost like some other skill morphs work but I guess they wanted to make it unique (good thing too since then both cast time skill morphs probably wouldn't be used).

In theory it would only proc 35% of the time, but that is far from accurate. Sometime the skill would proc almost 80-100%, and on different occasions the skill proc almost never.

Joy_Division

universal_wrath wrote: »

RighteousBacon wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

First of all, my first toon every on ps4 was mag sorc and I was playing for 3 years since launch and moved to pc and I still create my sorc second toon there 2 years ago. By no mean I'm not asking for nerfs, and i don't have any peoblem with the skill. I like the skill a lot and I think it is inteeesting. I just want poeple to think a bit about what I'm saying. This thread is only for sharing thoughts which is why I have a question on title.




Solar flare is the closest thing to the original skill, different is first skill is plain and second grant empower. Real different is morphs




First one have a chance for stronger and cheaper instant cast skill, second grant empower and major defile.

For crystal fragment why does the proc make more dmg than the cast time part? I understand the cost decrease, but the dmg increase is just making the skill without the proc useless; bound armament mostly sloted for the passive and not the active making half of the skill useless, crystal fragment is sloted for the proc rather than the original skill making half of the skill useless as well.

I will just state my honest opinion and and feel free to disagree and try to convince me even.

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people can anticipite you attack and prepare a counter because they see you cocking the crystal fragment. The proc part does not have any risk reward thing, it is just reward for not using the original skill. I totally understand that the proc has a chance to proc. I had many fights were the skill procs 1 rime during whole fight and other instances it procs after any cast of a different skill. This still does not a good reason for people to use the proc over the cast time of crystal fragments.

Please let me know if I posted wrong information or if something not clear.

Crystal frag is great rn, it adds a unique play style to sorc. Someone who is asking for it to be looked at obviously hasn’t been around for long and shouldn’t be taken too seriously in my opinion.

I still adds unique play style even if it's dmg reduced, or is it not? 4 years into the game as sorcerer while the game is 5 years old, I don't how long do you need me to be in order to validate my opinion. Still, it doesn't matter what happened 2 or 5 years ago or how many time CF got nerfed or buffed, what matter is now. Anyone who is playing sorcerer for atleast good 1 year or so should have a valid opinion and can express their thought of the class.

One reason you're getting pushback here is your idea of "unique play style" and interesting gameplay sounds about as fun as watching paint dry. I mean, I can't wait to play my class whose iconic skill does less damage when a special condition procs! Oh, boy, let me start rolling an alt right now!

It absolutely does matter how this skill functioned 2 or 5 years ago because I had fun playing the game then when abilities were genuinely interesting, unique, and impacted gameplay. Why do you think the PvP population can;t even fill up a single campaign during prime time or every PvE raid guild I've ever been in doesn;t exist any more? ESO is boring to play now compared to what it once was. I want my PvP abilities to be more than percentage damage modifiers (and you think it's cool for these to be negative!) and people don't want to spam heavy attacks in a Trial.

Tannus15

I love how "nerf" has been replaced with "needs adjustment"