Does Crystal Fragments Needs Adjustment?

MasterSpatula

Yes, it needs to be adjusted so that there's a maximum number of times you can cast abilities on the bar before it procs.

Because Frags procs on straight RNG (something I tend to think competent developers in 2019 are incapable of relying upon), there's no actual guarantee it will ever proc. In actual practice, I've taken to counting the number of abilities it takes to proc. Yes, it sometimes procs after one cast. And, considering how pattern-prone ESO's RNG is, you can go through runs of it procing after every ability for three or more times in a row. On the other hand, it's also pretty common for you to have to cast 12 abilities for it to proc. If you're doing 12 casts on the same bar, you're probably seriously screwing up your rotation. I've never gone past 17 abilities before accidentally hard-casting Frags, so I don't know how high it can go.

But 12 ability casts to proc a 33% ability is something that should be, at best, extremely rare. 17 casts, in my opinion, simply isn't something good designers would allow.

JinMori

My god, did you seriously say that since you only use the proc, you are basically using half of the skill?

The whole point of this morph is the proc, like wtf are you even saying?

JinMori

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Your comparison doesn't make sense. Crystal Fragments belongs to the family of instant cast hard hitting abilities. These abilities require a condition to be met.
Some abilities from this family:
- Grim Focus, needs 5 light attacks before being able to fire the arrow
- Bound Armaments, need at least one light attack before being able to fire a dagger. The more LAs you do, the more daggers you are able to fire at once, up to 4
- Crystal Fragments, needs to keep casting other abilities while on the bar with CF until you get the proc. Statisticaly, every fifth ability is a guaranteed proc.

And when do the right comparison (Grim Focus vs Bound Armaments vs CFrags) you'll see there is nothing wrong with CF. It has easier proc condition, but does less damage and has no additional effects.

Correct.

If anything they should make something out of crystal blast, and move it over as a stamina skill, could be like stonefist, only called crystal fist, could be either a spammable, or a proc like fragments, but unlikely since bound armaments seems to be really good.

Also while i'm at it, zos, if you want to see this game get better, you actually need to tackle the problem in a way that will not *** off players.

Why is cp a problem at the moment? Because you didn't really account for it, you just brought in a cool system, and then thought to yourself, well, now we are gonna nerf abilities and sustain and everything from time to time to keep power creep at bay, well, lemme tell you zos that is as *** as a solution as you could find, by the way cp has already been massively nerfed, remember when you used to get resources as you put points into trees up to almost 60% more resources at lvl 3600? That doesn't happen anymore, you only get about 20% at lvl 300, that's it.

And cp isn't even the only problem, sets new weapons etc, all play a part into this, are the sets and cp the problem? NO, the problem is YOU ZOS, you let this happen! This happened because you slaked, this happened because you decided that nerfs were better than making new systems to counter the exponential power gain, and why is that the case? The only thing i can think of is money, because nerfing is more cost effective in your eyes, and yes, maybe in the short term it is, but after repeated nerfs, people are clearly getting turned off, you can keep posting those bs numbers like recently when you reached 12 million registered accounts, like that matters in any *** way, but the results speak clearly.

I will not play a mediocre game, which is why i left, but i hope that you zos will decide to make it better.

Once and for all.

So yea zos, it's either improve the game for real, or forever be a decent to good game, but never great, when you take a look at the bigger picture, who gives a *** about nerfs, when the nerfs are caused by the problem mentioned before, and it will happen again, because new sets will come stronger than ever, and then we will have dragonhold 2.0, or morrowind 2.0, by the way, performance wasn't even talked about, because you could write a book on how trash eso general performance is.

If your solution is to keep nerfing, then iv'e got bad news for you, because that shows that you are not willing to make the game better, you will lose players.

Celestro

universal_wrath wrote: »

Celestro wrote: »

The way I see it, if it was instant it would probably receive a decent damage decrease and/or a cost increase, opposite to the proc condition. That 35% chance to proc is effectively 11.55% (.35 * 33%) additional damage and 17.5% (.35 * 50%) cost reduction, which could factor into the hypothetical instant Crystal Fragments version. I dunno what the end result would be exactly but I'd still see it doing less damage and costing a bit more. Now imagine if you could only benefit from using it 35% of the time. I'd expect a condition like that to come with something special, like more damage and/or less cost, which is the current Crystal Fragments and in a different way operate like Grim Focus, Bound Armaments, etc.

On another note, the morph could've just been extra damage and lower cost like some other skill morphs work but I guess they wanted to make it unique (good thing too since then both cast time skill morphs probably wouldn't be used).

In theory it would only proc 35% of the time, but that is far from accurate. Sometime the skill would proc almost 80-100%, and on different occasions the skill proc almost never.

Yeah I know, just trying an explanation from a different angle lol. I dunno man. When it comes down to it, without that particular morph ability, you're basically casting the base ability Crystal Shard, which would be even less useful (and used) than Crystal Blast despite it's technically powerful morph capabilities. I don't feel making it only instant and 50% cost reduction is noteworthy enough in comparison.

idk

universal_wrath wrote: »

idk wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people canar.

Why, because it does. One could argue that the amazing power that came to be granting the instant cast also increased the damage.

Regardless, the overall picture of the skill, how damage averages out, is what is more important. If you are going to compare skills that big picture is all that matters. Judging from what I have read here making a very biased comparison by focusing on the proc and ignoring the average of the skill.

The big part you are ignoring is a Templar will use Dark Flare when they want to. A skilled sorc will ignore frags until it procs which changes its usefulness.

That what I'm saying, why would use the cast time part of crystal fragment over the proc part?

That is not really what you are saying.

An experienced player would not use the skill unless it proced. With your idea an experienced player would not use the skill at all because it would be a DPS loss.

universal_wrath

JinMori wrote: »

My god, did you seriously say that since you only use the proc, you are basically using half of the skill?

The whole point of this morph is the proc, like wtf are you even saying?

So what us the point of the cast time part, why not just remove it and nake the skill "while sloted, activate other skill have chance to proc x dmg crystal frag"?

universal_wrath

idk wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

idk wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people canar.

Why, because it does. One could argue that the amazing power that came to be granting the instant cast also increased the damage.

Regardless, the overall picture of the skill, how damage averages out, is what is more important. If you are going to compare skills that big picture is all that matters. Judging from what I have read here making a very biased comparison by focusing on the proc and ignoring the average of the skill.

The big part you are ignoring is a Templar will use Dark Flare when they want to. A skilled sorc will ignore frags until it procs which changes its usefulness.

That what I'm saying, why would use the cast time part of crystal fragment over the proc part?

That is not really what you are saying.

An experienced player would not use the skill unless it proced. With your idea an experienced player would not use the skill at all because it would be a DPS loss.

I know, "never cast time crystal fragments" moto. That is the problem, why do i get punished hard fir cast timing crystal fragment, and get all the cool stuff for instant cast, since I can be inturepted in pvp, and can't use heals, pots, or other skills while cast time. There is zero reasons for anyone to use the cast time part of crystal fragments in both pve and pvp. Just my thoughts

pieratsos

universal_wrath wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Answer to the question depends on if you’re a sorc or not. I wouldn’t expect impartial answers on this forum.

OP is making a comparison as though frags is proced 100% of the time and that is false no matter what class you prefer to play. It is just a bad comparison from the foundation due to poor methodology.

I did mention that crystal fragments works on luck purely. I did the comparison while I have that in mind. How would compare it if you were me? And on what basis?

On the basis that the frag proc should be compared with other prooced skills like grim focus which was already mentioned to you. Not with freaking cast time skills.

Here is the thing, you identified a problem, hard casting frags never being used and you are correct, no one is hard casting frags. But the problem is that you completely fail to identify the root of that problem. The problem isnt that the frag proc hits harder than the hard cast frag. The problem is that cast time abilities simply suck and that why hard casting frags is useless. Period.

WrathOfInnos

universal_wrath wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

My god, did you seriously say that since you only use the proc, you are basically using half of the skill?

The whole point of this morph is the proc, like wtf are you even saying?

So what us the point of the cast time part, why not just remove it and nake the skill "while sloted, activate other skill have chance to proc x dmg crystal frag"?

That’s effectively how the skill is used by every Sorcerer I know. It’s been a running joke for years that any Sorcerer hard casting Frags or Blast has no clue what they’re doing. It would actually be preferable IMO to make the skill do nothing if it did not have a proc, since this would prevent the situations where you think it is ready but it turns out to be a UI bug and you get stuck hard casting Frags.

idk

universal_wrath wrote: »

idk wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

idk wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

I think the proc part of crystal fragment should be weaker than the cast time part of the skill, otherwise, nobody is cast time crystal fragments. 15-20% weaker, or even dealing same dmg, and still 50% cheaper. It just makes sinse to me that instant cast should be weaker the cast time sense tou are risking being interupted and people canar.

Why, because it does. One could argue that the amazing power that came to be granting the instant cast also increased the damage.

Regardless, the overall picture of the skill, how damage averages out, is what is more important. If you are going to compare skills that big picture is all that matters. Judging from what I have read here making a very biased comparison by focusing on the proc and ignoring the average of the skill.

The big part you are ignoring is a Templar will use Dark Flare when they want to. A skilled sorc will ignore frags until it procs which changes its usefulness.

That what I'm saying, why would use the cast time part of crystal fragment over the proc part?

That is not really what you are saying.

An experienced player would not use the skill unless it proced. With your idea an experienced player would not use the skill at all because it would be a DPS loss.

I know, "never cast time crystal fragments" moto. That is the problem, why do i get punished hard fir cast timing crystal fragment, and get all the cool stuff for instant cast, since I can be inturepted in pvp, and can't use heals, pots, or other skills while cast time. There is zero reasons for anyone to use the cast time part of crystal fragments in both pve and pvp. Just my thoughts

First, this is not what you were suggesting in the OP. Maybe your OP was an incomplete thought.

The answer is pretty obvious. It is a good skill as it is. It offers good damage per cast when it is proced and that is balanced with the idea that you have to wait for a proc. If you reduce the damage of the proc as you have suggested the skill becomes utter trash and you will get punished for using the skill every time.

If you do not like the skill as it is use the other morph or do not use it at all. Please do not suggest making the skill worthless for everyone.

Vahrokh

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Does Crystal Fragments Needs Adjustment?

Yes, it should get the stun back.

It really shouldnt. Game balance is not a vacuum. Lot of thngs have changed since crystal frag stun was removed and giving it back right now would make it kinda broken and also would go against ZoS's idea of high burst damage ability not being tied to CCs. Lets be honest it was fun to use but also extremly powerfull combo and currently when we recived abilities like Elemental Weapon and overload changes plus many other things it would be just too much. I mean many people is complaining about tank meta but tank meta exists also because combos like that are possible so people wants to prevent themselves from dying to it and basically everyone who isnt a tank would simply die to combo of curse+overload+frag+ele weapon+overload+endless fury all in 1 second while enemy is also stunned.

I had lots of fun with original Crystal Fragmens. I could solo amazing things in Craglorn, back when it was hard.

Oh, wait, you think about PvP, that is the thing that ruins this game for everybody but 0.5% of players, right?

Zippy81

An idea:
1 second cast time - the ability is AoE damage
proc cast - as it is now

The other morph:
scales off stamina and deals physical damage. Same rules apply.

Juhasow

Vahrokh wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Does Crystal Fragments Needs Adjustment?

Yes, it should get the stun back.

It really shouldnt. Game balance is not a vacuum. Lot of thngs have changed since crystal frag stun was removed and giving it back right now would make it kinda broken and also would go against ZoS's idea of high burst damage ability not being tied to CCs. Lets be honest it was fun to use but also extremly powerfull combo and currently when we recived abilities like Elemental Weapon and overload changes plus many other things it would be just too much. I mean many people is complaining about tank meta but tank meta exists also because combos like that are possible so people wants to prevent themselves from dying to it and basically everyone who isnt a tank would simply die to combo of curse+overload+frag+ele weapon+overload+endless fury all in 1 second while enemy is also stunned.

I had lots of fun with original Crystal Fragmens. I could solo amazing things in Craglorn, back when it was hard.

Oh, wait, you think about PvP, that is the thing that ruins this game for everybody but 0.5% of players, right?

My point still stands. PvE also have changed during the years of game existance and now You can easily solo everything in craglorn without the need to have stun on Your bar and everything in PvE that stun would be useful against most of the time is immune to stuns. You said it Yourself "back when it was hard". Well it's no longer hard. Fact You had fun with it in the past doesnt justify need for that ability to have stun atm.

Tannus15

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

My god, did you seriously say that since you only use the proc, you are basically using half of the skill?

The whole point of this morph is the proc, like wtf are you even saying?

So what us the point of the cast time part, why not just remove it and nake the skill "while sloted, activate other skill have chance to proc x dmg crystal frag"?

That’s effectively how the skill is used by every Sorcerer I know. It’s been a running joke for years that any Sorcerer hard casting Frags or Blast has no clue what they’re doing. It would actually be preferable IMO to make the skill do nothing if it did not have a proc, since this would prevent the situations where you think it is ready but it turns out to be a UI bug and you get stuck hard casting Frags.

I would 100% use an addon which blocked me from casting frags unless it's proc'd. Hard cast frag is utter trash.

universal_wrath

pieratsos wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Answer to the question depends on if you’re a sorc or not. I wouldn’t expect impartial answers on this forum.

OP is making a comparison as though frags is proced 100% of the time and that is false no matter what class you prefer to play. It is just a bad comparison from the foundation due to poor methodology.

I did mention that crystal fragments works on luck purely. I did the comparison while I have that in mind. How would compare it if you were me? And on what basis?

On the basis that the frag proc should be compared with other prooced skills like grim focus which was already mentioned to you. Not with freaking cast time skills.

Here is the thing, you identified a problem, hard casting frags never being used and you are correct, no one is hard casting frags. But the problem is that you completely fail to identify the root of that problem. The problem isnt that the frag proc hits harder than the hard cast frag. The problem is that cast time abilities simply suck and that why hard casting frags is useless. Period.

How would you make the cast time more desireable? Because now poeple will think you are a noob or stupid of you cast time it.

universal_wrath

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

My god, did you seriously say that since you only use the proc, you are basically using half of the skill?

The whole point of this morph is the proc, like wtf are you even saying?

So what us the point of the cast time part, why not just remove it and nake the skill "while sloted, activate other skill have chance to proc x dmg crystal frag"?

That’s effectively how the skill is used by every Sorcerer I know. It’s been a running joke for years that any Sorcerer hard casting Frags or Blast has no clue what they’re doing. It would actually be preferable IMO to make the skill do nothing if it did not have a proc, since this would prevent the situations where you think it is ready but it turns out to be a UI bug and you get stuck hard casting Frags.

It would make senae then, but as of now, that is not the case. And I'm totaly fine if they such thing. For me atleast, it is very frustrating when I see something I'm use and benefit from but it is useless and cast you more than you want, thhat was the case for me as well with bound armaments active part on live server.

universal_wrath

Zippy81 wrote: »

An idea:
1 second cast time - the ability is AoE damage
proc cast - as it is now

The other morph:
scales off stamina and deals physical damage. Same rules apply.

Lots of people been asking for your second idea, bit zos is just not takning any ideas no more. As for the first one it would make more sense sense now it will do aoe vs single target.

DoonerSeraph

universal_wrath

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

Why?

JinMori

universal_wrath wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

My god, did you seriously say that since you only use the proc, you are basically using half of the skill?

The whole point of this morph is the proc, like wtf are you even saying?

So what us the point of the cast time part, why not just remove it and nake the skill "while sloted, activate other skill have chance to proc x dmg crystal frag"?

Because it can still be used to line up some burst in pvp at a range if you want.

Nordic__Knights

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

Ill give you the only change it needs YOU LEAVING THE GAME zenimax should remove everyone who ask for NURFS to any skill but listen to them that ask for skills to be BUFFED at an small amount to help it improve an CLASS or for something that that CLASS is Missing be added to an skill
The only person that should beable to say hey this skill an lil to much is CLASS reps that should be their pay out for the work they do as they could then use open feedback to help development make an better game for us to enjoy ok ty now you may go bye

Ironic

Yeah it is ironic isn't it I don't ask for the nurfs and I don't ask for the buffs I State reasons why people want something by my own experience playing with or against it you find me one thread that I started up that says Nerf this or buff that and I'll gladly leave this game but you'll never find one yes I will state reasons why something should be changed or shouldn't be changed but never will I get on here asking for something to be one or the other

Chilly-McFreeze

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

Ill give you the only change it needs YOU LEAVING THE GAME zenimax should remove everyone who ask for NURFS to any skill but listen to them that ask for skills to be BUFFED at an small amount to help it improve an CLASS or for something that that CLASS is Missing be added to an skill
The only person that should beable to say hey this skill an lil to much is CLASS reps that should be their pay out for the work they do as they could then use open feedback to help development make an better game for us to enjoy ok ty now you may go bye

Ironic

Yeah it is ironic isn't it I don't ask for the nurfs and I don't ask for the buffs I State reasons why people want something by my own experience playing with or against it you find me one thread that I started up that says Nerf this or buff that and I'll gladly leave this game but you'll never find one yes I will state reasons why something should be changed or shouldn't be changed but never will I get on here asking for something to be one or the other

Huh? Aren't you on the forefront telling everyone how OP dizzy and sweeps are? That using the former is pure "cheese" etc.?
Stating reasons why something should be changed for the worse is effectively asking for nerfs. If those are justified is another question but there's no reason to beat around the bush.

Nordic__Knights

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

Ill give you the only change it needs YOU LEAVING THE GAME zenimax should remove everyone who ask for NURFS to any skill but listen to them that ask for skills to be BUFFED at an small amount to help it improve an CLASS or for something that that CLASS is Missing be added to an skill
The only person that should beable to say hey this skill an lil to much is CLASS reps that should be their pay out for the work they do as they could then use open feedback to help development make an better game for us to enjoy ok ty now you may go bye

Ironic

Yeah it is ironic isn't it I don't ask for the nurfs and I don't ask for the buffs I State reasons why people want something by my own experience playing with or against it you find me one thread that I started up that says Nerf this or buff that and I'll gladly leave this game but you'll never find one yes I will state reasons why something should be changed or shouldn't be changed but never will I get on here asking for something to be one or the other

Huh? Aren't you on the forefront telling everyone how OP dizzy and sweeps are? That using the former is pure "cheese" etc.?
Stating reasons why something should be changed for the worse is effectively asking for nerfs. If those are justified is another question but there's no reason to beat around the bush.

Yes you are correct I am stating reasons behind the request for things a hundred percent guaranteed but my comment was to the person asking for a very unnecessary change to something and once again like I said find one place that I asked for it 1 thread started by me

Nordic__Knights

@Chilly-McFreeze
And never had i once said dizzy was op i have and will stand behind the fact that the knockback along with stun was and is 🧀 and I've also never said sweeps/ jabs was op i have said they are both overloaded due to passives so before trying to put words into things speak on what they are really saying or that not fit here since your trying to make an point that doesn't exist