PTS Dragonhold Feedback Notes for Class Rep Meeting

Sporvan · September 2019

The answer about the "change fatigue" is to constantly change and tweak everything in this game. Weapon skills, race passives, class skills, all of it... create the expectation that every patch will have some tweak on popular and unpopular builds.

But here's the key word - TWEAK.

Not some berzerk pendulum swing that has everyone nauseated from the aftermath.

Blizzard does this sort of balancing effortlessly in all their games and their playerbase embraces it. Sure there's some whining now and then but in general people love their tweaks as they refine their games. I get the impression that ESO doesn't really know what it wants to do with skills so they just try things and lay it out for the public to test. Instead they should do a major overhaul where they do everything they've wanted to accomplish over several patches at once. Then tweak what they have. Instead of constant big changes that they can't seem to make their minds up about.

The current strategy is not working.

Royalthought · September 2019

Darsaga wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Darsaga wrote: »

Also if you do start bringing power back to NBs the real problem needs to be fixed and that is cloaks uptime. It should be an exponential cost like dodge roll or streak. Magblades if used properly have the mag pool to sustain it, and Stam blades cant abuse it. All the old things could be given back as far as I’m concerned as long as the fight can’t be reset every 6 seconds.

An exponential cost increase on cloak would punish magblade harder than stamblade. The superior mobility of the latter and the ability to alternate between cloak and dodge reduces the need to actually spam that skill.

I don’t want to open a separate discussion so I will only reply this chat once.

The scenario it becomes a problem is when it is spamed. It is already used how you mentioned and isn’t a problem, but if done incorrectly before the fatigue it should cost you something. It’s a little too dummy proof for the power it provides, which is resetting the fight. This goes for both mag and stam. Hurt magblades more? I can’t agree. It would be no different than a Sorcs streaking themself out of mag. They use dark deal and lose their stam to get back the mag. The NB would just wait for the fatigue to run out in stealth with is passive recovery and no stamina loss.

Cloak =/= streak or dodgeroll.

Cloak for nightblades are what shields are for sorc.

You know why shields don't have a fatigue? Because it's an awful idea. Same for cloak.

On Topic:

Glory wrote: »

Reducing the duration or damage of Colossus ultimate probably will not deter raid teams wanting to stack their entire roster with Stamina Necromancers. Decently-coordinated groups will have no trouble rotating Colossus ultimates and the disparity between Necromancer and the other classes will still be present. Perhaps a cooldown to Major Vulnerability like Off-Balance immunity would be more of an appropriate change than damage reduction or duration in this case as this would still require Necromancers to be brought to raids but pointless to stack 8-9 of them. EDIT: some have pointed out dislike for a CD: this is just one option the community has propsed, also have seen those who prefer toning down the value and pre-lengthening the
[/list]

Necromancer:
The uptime of Major vulnerability is what matters in pve. In Pvp however it's effect being applied on the first hit is what matters. If not it becomes a dead ult.

Glory wrote: »

The Nightblade class seems to be focusing a lot more on mitigation and healing while losing out on damage.
[/list]

Why are nightblades forced to choose between best class heal or cloak? Best class burst(bow) or mitigation? Imagine if hardened ward was the other morph of streak. Or if breath of life was the other morph of backlash. This is very limiting.

Also, allow abilities to count towards grim focus stacks or reduce the required amount. Its the hardest to proc burst, yet nb lose mitigation when it's fired.

Glory wrote: »

Templar, Warden and Necromancer have a class purge. Suggestion that Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Nightblades also get class purges.

[/list]

+1 This actually makes sense. Dots are getting destroyed and will need a buff. True. But purge is a counter and limiting which classes have access isn't balance. Break free, block, dodgeroll, shield and purge all fall in that category yet 1 is partially exclusive.

But keep any added to caster only. That way Templars will still be top for Aoe purge.

idk · September 2019

It is good to see change fatigue mentioned. However, this has been an issue for years now. Zos should have just implemented this new "vision" in one update and gotten it over with. The piece meal approach with the lack of communicating the big picture does not instill confidence that management of combat in this game will improve.

Of course I realize communication has been one of the pain points with Zos from the start. One they have acknowledged on more than one occasion. However, it is good to see some feedback from the class reps.

Sanguinor2 · September 2019

Glory wrote: »

Templar, Warden and Necromancer have a class purge. Suggestion that Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Nightblades also get class purges.

Lots of the stuff you listed sounds good, but can we please not give every class a class purge? Or if we do can templar get cloak or shimmering or streak in return?

katorga · September 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Templar, Warden and Necromancer have a class purge. Suggestion that Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Nightblades also get class purges.

Lots of the stuff you listed sounds good, but can we please not give every class a class purge? Or if we do can templar get cloak or shimmering or streak in return?

With the tone of most of the comments in the forums, many players don't think it is "fair" that damage is not exactly the same, that classes don't have exactly the same capabilities as other classes, or that any class has anything unique from other classes.

Not saying it is the correct or incorrect direction, but it seems obvious to me that ZOS hears it and is moving to implement it, and they made multiple references to similar ideas in the ESO Live related to 5.2 PTS notes.

Glory · September 2019

Hi all,

Thanks for your comments and thoughts. The disagreements about many of the notes we have goes to show that the community is truly diverse - I don't agree with many of the points either! Overall, we are trying to highlight some of the biggest concerns that groups in the community are seeing (in this instance, about the patch notes produced for Dragonhold). If you don't agree, know that we are still reading and understand that there is rarely going to be a consensus on how changes and gameplay feel (example: pushback on cleanse mechanics for other classes).

cheifsoap wrote: »

What's the process for submitted feedback to class reps?
When you guys receive this feedback; how do you determine what goes forward in your summary?

In general, I'm curious about the process you all use to interact with the rest of the user base?

I think it varies from rep to rep to be honest. My personal feedback channels that I try to pull from include:

Reading the Class Feedback threads here on the forums (Y NO NECRO THREAD )
Reading the discussions here on the forums (I troll through PTS, General/Combat, Recent, Dev Tracker, Bug Reports, Roleplaying, and the PvP threads a lot personally)
In game guild/group discussions (events where I show up to PvP, dueling tournaments, guild chats, etc.)
Lurking in too many Discords
Participating in many discords (here is one that I frequent, beware of memecromancers: https://discord.gg/PxS7Hs)
Reading reddit posts

As you can guess, all of these channels result in a deluge of feedback (much of it conflicting). To pick out what goes into my notes/lists for feedback, I look for comments that have a consistent perception from the community (example: the changes to DoTs seen over the last 2 patches) and/or things that are discussed at length (is X skill OP or is it balanced), bug reports that I can repro, and honestly a lot of testing that I do both on live and the PTS.

Royalthought · September 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Templar, Warden and Necromancer have a class purge. Suggestion that Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Nightblades also get class purges.

Lots of the stuff you listed sounds good, but can we please not give every class a class purge? Or if we do can templar get cloak or shimmering or streak in return?

I understand where you're coming from.

I remember when nightblades where known for having cloak and purge. They took the purge away and gave everybody invisibility.

Now templars actually have invisibility and purge. Your wish, already granted. Pretty awesome class tbh.

Sanguinor2 · September 2019

Royalthought wrote: »

I understand where you're coming from.

I remember when nightblades where known for having cloak and purge. They took the purge away and gave everybody invisibility.

Now templars actually have invisibility and purge. Your wish, already granted. Pretty awesome class tbh.

Where is templars on demand invis with no cooldown actually? Cant remember having such a Thing in the class skill trees or even the non class skill trees.
On the other Hand I do remember something akin to a purge being in the AvA skill line, it even is called purge. Fancy that.

Jodynn · September 2019

Would like to reiterate if there is any testing or anything I can do from a magDK perspective let me know, I am more than happy to give a flood of information you would like me to test to give real results.

Darsaga · September 2019

[/quote]

Cloak =/= streak or dodgeroll.

Cloak for nightblades are what shields are for sorc.

You know why shields don't have a fatigue? Because it's an awful idea. Same for cloak.[/quote]

Cloak does not equal streak or dodgeroll, its an addition to them. No NB says well I have cloak guess I’m not dodge rolling anymore or vice versa.

It is also not the equivalent of shields. At one time shields were the only life line for light armor builds. Cloak isn’t the life line or the shield equivalent. Someone just spamming cloak to get away and doesn’t shield or vigor or rally dies. So I don’t understand your argument.

Again shields don’t have fatigue because it is the source of survival for those builds. Unfortunately you can now have 30k resists and 40% damage mitigation on top of shields. Which in itself is a problem.

AngeredDaisy2 · September 2019

Thank you for the comprehensive list. I wish it had come from ZOS instead of a class rep, but at least we know that it will be addressed and we will be heard. You might make a suggestion that they have a customer relations team of a few people who actively participate in addressing (not fixing our guaranteeing fixes, but addressing) player feedback and concerns. I don't understand why this isn't happening. But I don't think the devs should be screamed at because people get no responses. But I do think that there needs to be people who go, "Yes, we see your anger. We hear you. We will address this and thank you for your feed back." Or "Please elaborate, we need a clearer picture of why you feel such and such is broken. 'Thanks ZOS for breaking such and such, you stinky cheese heads' doesn't help us try to figure out how you feel it's broken" would go a long way to soothing player concerns. Just knowing they are actively listening. Not just ghosting forums and shutting down conversations.

@Glory thank you again btw.

Emma_Overload · September 2019

See, this is why the "Class Reps" need to actually be reps for a SPECIFIC class:

I find it really hard to believe the only thing a true Mag Sorc rep could come up with is to beg for a Ball of Lightning NERF before it even gets buffed! LOL, WHAT?!!

How about asking for the horrible "cone" AOE to be reverted on the PTS version of Streak?

How about asking for all the horrible Clench nerfs to be reverted, including the range nerf?

How about asking for Frag procs to be fixed so they can't be LOS'd by players who are just wiggling back and forth?

How about asking for a class spammable? Maybe they could double the base damage of Mages' Fury?

How about asking for Overload light attacks to be buffed so you can actually kill stuff with them?

How about asking for a damage buff to Mines so that players are actually scared of stepping on them?

How about asking for a buff to Bound Aegis so that it actually does something useful for Mag Sorcs?

How about asking for BLOCK to apply mitigation to damage BEFORE it hits damage shields... It's about time!

This is ridiculous... when are Sorcs going to get a REP???

Royalthought · September 2019

Darsaga wrote: »

Cloak =/= streak or dodgeroll.

Cloak for nightblades are what shields are for sorc.

You know why shields don't have a fatigue? Because it's an awful idea. Same for cloak.

Cloak does not equal streak or dodgeroll, its an addition to them. No NB says well I have cloak guess I’m not dodge rolling anymore or vice versa.

It is also not the equivalent of shields. At one time shields were the only life line for light armor builds. Cloak isn’t the life line or the shield equivalent. Someone just spamming cloak to get away and doesn’t shield or vigor or rally dies. So I don’t understand your argument.

Again shields don’t have fatigue because it is the source of survival for those builds. Unfortunately you can now have 30k resists and 40% damage mitigation on top of shields. Which in itself is a problem.

"Cloak does not equal streak or dodgeroll"
^This is what this means: Cloak =/= streak or dodgeroll.

We agree on that.

"It is also not the equivalent of shields"

It's not stated to be the equivalent. What is stated is that cloak is for nb's, what shield is for sorcs.

"So I don’t understand your argument."

Damage mitigation. Sorc uses shields to do so. Nightblades use cloak to do so.

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

I understand where you're coming from.

I remember when nightblades where known for having cloak and purge. They took the purge away and gave everybody invisibility.

Now templars actually have invisibility and purge. Your wish, already granted. Pretty awesome class tbh.

Where is templars on demand invis with no cooldown actually? Cant remember having such a Thing in the class skill trees or even the non class skill trees.
On the other Hand I do remember something akin to a purge being in the AvA skill line, it even is called purge. Fancy that.

Do potions not grant invis because they have a Cool down?

Listen. What they stated was "PURGE" was considered to be made available to the other classes.

You and I know, for example, that Ritual of Retribution gives:
Heal over time
Damage over time
purge
and snares

In one of the largest AoE in the game. Are they giving all that away? Or just purge?

All classes got invis. Not every aspect of cloak. Theyre discussing purge, not every aspect of the templar skills.

techprince · September 2019

They did not classify Stonefist as a spammable. They simply buffed its damage and made it stamina. The cost remains the same and the damage is still on low side as compared to surprise attack or silver shards. Even if they have to make this is a melee only skill with 5m range in exchange for increased damage, it would be fine as nobody was using this skill in the first place.

Glory · September 2019

techprince wrote: »

They did not classify Stonefist as a spammable. They simply buffed its damage and made it stamina. The cost remains the same and the damage is still on low side as compared to surprise attack or silver shards. Even if they have to make this is a melee only skill with 5m range in exchange for increased damage, it would be fine as nobody was using this skill in the first place.

Erm...

"Reworked this ability to be a Stamina based “spammable” attack. It now deals Physical Damage (like it used to at launch, since it’s a ROCK) with a reduced range of 15 meters, down from 28."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493609/pts-patch-notes-v5-2-0#latest

techprince · September 2019

@Glory I would like to add Inferno skill to your list. Inferno skill at the base, does damage and provides Crit buff while slotted.
What if we remove the DOT component from the base skill, increase the duration to 20 seconds and shift the weapon and spell crit buff on active?

It will reduce the cost of crafted pots as they wont need to add weapon crit attribute in the potion. It will keep the current design of FoO intact and it would align with the pattern of "adding major buffs to the base instead of morphs". They did this with Molten Weapons and Drain Power skill of Nightblades.

Galarthor · September 2019

Glory wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

[*] New 30 Day Campaign (no faction) lock is AWESOME (recommend unhoming people
and also put it at the top for true test)

How is that a true test?

You guys claim that the campaign at the top of the list gets the most players b/c most casuals don't care about the mode and just pick the first one - implying that's the only reason the 30days faction-locked did better than the 7days unlocked. Then you say "put our campaign on top". Some really solid reasoning you got there.

This reveals just what a bunch of hypocrites you guys (those who want that change, not class reps in general) are. All you want is easy prey in the form of casuals and pugs that you can farm with your premade bomb groups. And in case you overfarmed them on one faction to be able to then farm casuals on pugs on another faction. That's just sad.

This is feedback collected by the community. This is the majority feedback we heard this cycle about the PTS note regarding adding a 30 day. I am sorry if you do not agree with this comment.

Feedback from whom? I mean pretty much the only people talking about this and / or starting threads on this matter are known bomb-group members. The fact that nobody else is writing on this topic doesn't mean the majority is asking for the unlocked campaign to be on top of the list. The proponents even say, the majority of people don't care. So why would those people be in here talking about it? Also, given that people might be quite happy with the status quo, why would they be on the forums starting threads about how it should stay the same?

The fact that all these threads come from known bomb-groups and nobody else speaks volumes.

I am not saying their claim is incorrect. But it is definitely deeply hypocritical and heavily biased, as is their proposed solution.

Wanna make it a true test? Don't show a list at all. Use a pop-up window to ask people what they want. And then assign them to the campaigns accordingly. After they have been assigned initially, you can show the list to enable switching between campaigns. Now see, THIS is an unbiased approach. Not that crap the bomb-groups and their lackeys are proposing!

techprince · September 2019

Glory wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

They did not classify Stonefist as a spammable. They simply buffed its damage and made it stamina. The cost remains the same and the damage is still on low side as compared to surprise attack or silver shards. Even if they have to make this is a melee only skill with 5m range in exchange for increased damage, it would be fine as nobody was using this skill in the first place.

Erm...

"Reworked this ability to be a Stamina based “spammable” attack. It now deals Physical Damage (like it used to at launch, since it’s a ROCK) with a reduced range of 15 meters, down from 28."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493609/pts-patch-notes-v5-2-0#latest

No spammable has that cost, its damage is still not comparable to Surprise Attack. So its not "adhering" to the standards. Hence its not properly classified as a spammable.

Jodynn · September 2019

I mean this is the first post someone who has actual contact with zos that looks like a culmination of pain points and people who care stop questioning it and do the research because what I see in @Glory Post is exactly everyone who hasn't just been crying for their own selfish gain in the macro sense as in they can't focus every thing.

Sanguinor2 · September 2019

techprince wrote: »

No spammable has that cost, its damage is still not comparable to Surprise Attack. So its not "adhering" to the standards. Hence its not properly classified as a spammable.

Keep the helping Hands passive in mind. Its effectively a 1k stam cost reduction to any earthern heart ability thats why the cost is higher than usual I imagine.

Galarthor · September 2019

@Royalthought

Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.

ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.

Jodynn · September 2019

Galarthor wrote: »

@Royalthought

Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.

ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.

I've never had a problem killing someone who cloaks period

techprince · September 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

No spammable has that cost, its damage is still not comparable to Surprise Attack. So its not "adhering" to the standards. Hence its not properly classified as a spammable.

Keep the helping Hands passive in mind. Its effectively a 1k stam cost reduction to any earthern heart ability thats why the cost is higher than usual I imagine.

Its a class passive similar to how nightblades get Major Resolve and Ward on activating any ability in that tree. This effect should be unique and this is a part of class identity. If a skill is not adhering to the standards then why create standards in the first place?

Royalthought · September 2019

Galarthor wrote: »

@Royalthought

Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.

ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.

I dont want to further derail the thread to be dominating by one discusion.

So to quickly respond. This is incorrect.

Streak and dodgeroll offer mobility. Cloak and shield do not. Neither cloak nor shield will remove you from areas of harm. They'll only mitigate damage.

A sorc without streak and a nightblade without mobility are both, generally speaking, easy kills.

montiferus · September 2019

eso_lags wrote: »

Anyway this is some good feedback. Good is good, bad is bad.. I doubt they will listen though. And PotL etc should def not crit. Way too much.

The only thing this lacks is anything about pvp performance. This is the problem with have no console class reps, and im not sure about pvp main class reps. But I'd bet anything that if there was a class rep, pvp main, here on xbox that played in the 30 day campaign, they would bring it up at every meeting. Not to badger them, just to remind them that people are pretty much unable to play. Because thats what it is.

Don't agree with you about POL. Crit is fine they just need to adjust how the damage is applied (make it self applied but change cap). For small group play it is easily the least brain dead execute as compared to every other execute in the game.

I do COMPLETELY agree with you on the dearth of console dedicated PVP player reps. I can think of a few solid choices for this on Xbox NA. We need more representation in this area.

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2019

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

@Royalthought

Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.

ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.

I've never had a problem killing someone who cloaks period

Same can be said about any defensive tool.

montiferus · September 2019

ZeroXFF wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

PotL/Purifying Light shouldn’t crit AND get amps from allies.

Oh, they improved the most difficult to use delayed burst skill in the game, and even class reps are shouting "nerf!"

Either way, if it doesn't benefit from other people's damage, the cap should be removed too.

Difficult to use? Fills up automatically with damage in 6 secs, only one that allies can also activate and as of PTS, deals more than Assassin's Will. Can't be dodged, no travel time, breaks Cloak, can't be LoSed.

Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve users cries in background. Boom baby.

This is such BS. In PvP you will never do enough damage to make it better than grim focus, unless you're running with a zerg. Damage of the skill is cut twice by any form of mitigation (including battle spirit), first when you stack up the damage, then when it actually does its explosion, and you're exposed while you're trying to stack it up, because the moment you stop playing offensively, it will hit like a wet noodle.

.

Agree. Poster has no idea what he is talking about.

For solo / small group play it is easily the highest skill cap execute in the game.

Problem is this forum is mostly comprised of bad players and zergers. We need a ranking system in here to separate the wheat from the chaffe.

montiferus · September 2019

CAB_Life wrote: »

If you’d ever like to do BGs, Cyro or duel on PS4 (Xbox account still very much a baby, but getting there), feel free to add me to PSN. It sounds as if you’re primarily on Xbox, though, and having both platforms now I can tell you that the performance and woes are shared between platforms. The ‘enhanced’ consoles certainly alleviate the worst of the crashes and bugs, and the Xbox One X graphical tweaks make it the shiniest of the pack. Still, the developers have a lot to do with regards to performance and hopefully we’ll see the fruits of that labor soon.

Would be more than happy to have you join my group on Xbox whenever you want. We run in a 2-5 man group open world on the 30 day campaign for DC. I can also put you in touch with some of the dedicated PVPers from the other alliances as well.

GT montiferus

Lord-Otto · September 2019

Royalthought wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

@Royalthought

Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.

ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.

I dont want to further derail the thread to be dominating by one discusion.

So to quickly respond. This is incorrect.

Streak and dodgeroll offer mobility. Cloak and shield do not. Neither cloak nor shield will remove you from areas of harm. They'll only mitigate damage.

A sorc without streak and a nightblade without mobility are both, generally speaking, easy kills.

I'll remember that next time I cloak into a keep and bomb the flags. Invisibility is another form of mobility - positioning. Cloak, sneak away - boom, gap opener. Cloak, sneak in - boom, gap closer.
Cloak also mitigates 100% of mitigatable damage, like dodge. Shields have a fixed amount of all damage mitigated, the shield strength. Like... heals. Shields are pre-applied burst heals.

Tommy_The_Gun · September 2019

cheifsoap wrote: »

What's the process for submitted feedback to class reps?
When you guys receive this feedback; how do you determine what goes forward in your summary?

In general, I'm curious about the process you all use to interact with the rest of the user base?

I was actually gonna ask of a similar thing.
Class rep program (at least this is my assumption) was supposed to work more or less like this:
1. Players post their feedback & pain points.
2. Class reps collect that feedback.
3. Feedback goes to ZOS.

What feedback actually goes to ZOS ? Is there any feedback that is rejected by class reps & never delivered to ZOS ? How do you determine what problems & pain-points are important ?

I ask because I would like to know how does it look like from "the other side", from a class rep perspective. The thing is, we as players simply have "0" warranty and also no idea if our feedback is reaching ZOS in the same way we provided it, or is it somehow getting altered by class reps (idk, bias, "I know better" etc.)

Can some of class reps shed some light on this ?