Combat changes destroyed end-game population.

MehrunesFlagon · September 2019

Think we need to define what end game is.Craglorn trials I would say no.vMOL and any thing beyond that I would consider end game.HM also needs to be considered as well.

Nyladreas · September 2019

slofwnd wrote: »

General direction, or better to say lack of direction where combat is going during Scalebreaker and Dragonhold destroyed end-game pve population.
It's increasingly hard to find trial groups and guolds lately due to the fact that players just left the game and do not want to play anymore.
Scalebreaker healer and geiund dots nerfs were padded by single target dot buffs, so we were able to keep up the dps in trial groups. Once 5.2 patch notes were released I can't fill a trial roster in the last active trial guild I had.
Is that what developers want the game to be? Drive away players who were loyal to the game for years?

I honestly don't care if the salty veterans outright leave the game. Some of them are really nice but most?

They're all like grumpy old farts that have a problem with everything, all cynical doomsayers that refuse to adjust and man up to the changes. All that while also being hypocrites for they're the ones I heard the most calling for new refreshing changes to keep the game interesting.

Now they all cry and try to treathen ZOS that they'll leave just because they won't be able to hit ridiculous DPS numbers anymore that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

Let them go, they will be replaced by new players eventually.

I've been around for many years myself and I love the changes cause it forces me to switch up, experiment, find something new and re-learn the game that was already getting boring. If I can do it why not them?

MehrunesFlagon · September 2019

slofwnd wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Yes.

I don't know how it is in all guilds, but in my guilds ton of people vanished after those leaked notes of scalebreaker, and now even those who remained are completely disoriented and even ongoing raids are messy with crazy mix of players of different level.

And of course nobody wants to play, I mean what reason to improve your PVE rotation or PVP builds while all this will be entirely, absolutely disintegrated within a month.

Exactly. I have one member of my core who literally just mastered his all dot rotation. They were very resistant to change. I feel so bad they need to relearn all over again

Some haven't even mastered it yet.

Jaimeh · September 2019

Speaking from my own perspective, I can attest to what the OP is saying; our vSS progression group disbanded right before Scalebreaker because a few people, inlcusing the lead, wanted to take a break from ESO, and I know of several other people across guilds and discord servers that I am part of, who are taking breaks, or have left the game entirely, plus guilds that became inactive during this time. The end-game community is small as it is, and shifts like this become easily obvious. As for experienced players adapting, at some point it becomes tiring having to learn new rotations every so often--end-game players are used to chasing the meta, but farming gear is frustrating enough, without adapting to new rotations, especially for those who like to play with multiple dps toons.

Ekzorka · September 2019

I see it as another kick back to the progress I've made 1 year ago. The community has always requires a bit too much DPS to allow anyone to visit content. I can't deal the same DPS with ping 150-220 as the guy with ping 80-100. I'm forced to seek people with my "level" and same aspiration for months for Dungeon achievements. DLC vet Trials in most of guilds are closed for me because they don't like my class or DPS. And nerfs just hurt my progress more than some kind of Top-players'. ZOS want to nerf Top-players but nerfing all who is between "top" and "newbie".

MartiniDaniels · September 2019

Nyladreas wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

General direction, or better to say lack of direction where combat is going during Scalebreaker and Dragonhold destroyed end-game pve population.
It's increasingly hard to find trial groups and guolds lately due to the fact that players just left the game and do not want to play anymore.
Scalebreaker healer and geiund dots nerfs were padded by single target dot buffs, so we were able to keep up the dps in trial groups. Once 5.2 patch notes were released I can't fill a trial roster in the last active trial guild I had.
Is that what developers want the game to be? Drive away players who were loyal to the game for years?

I honestly don't care if the salty veterans outright leave the game. Some of them are really nice but most?

They're all like grumpy old farts that have a problem with everything, all cynical doomsayers that refuse to adjust and man up to the changes. All that while also being hypocrites for they're the ones I heard the most calling for new refreshing changes to keep the game interesting.

Now they all cry and try to treathen ZOS that they'll leave just because they won't be able to hit ridiculous DPS numbers anymore that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

Let them go, they will be replaced by new players eventually.

I've been around for many years myself and I love the changes cause it forces me to switch up, experiment, find something new and re-learn the game that was already getting boring. If I can do it why not them?

Your opinion could be right (from some point of views) in previous patches. But this PTS is just absurd one.

This is not some alpha build half-year before release game, where devs may juggle parameters as they want. This is 5 y.o. old established game in one of the key lore universes. This game is played by millions. Combat team has no rights to demolish entire game with changes like 50%/63% all-dots wide nerf. This is similar if Blizzard will decrease damage of ALL special abilities in overwatch in half in one patch. Or reduce zergling health in half. I.e. it was 35hp for 20 years and now it will be 15hp.
This changes are crazy, maybe they are pushed from some higher executives who want to make game more casual in PVP, because due to some market analysis casual PVP nets more income or whatever... or they want to reduce server load and minimize amount of dots.. anyway I guess combat team just middlemans and scapegoats for decisions made on higher levels. If not... situation is worse. Anyway, in both cases players have right to give feedback. Feedback is plain as day, magnitude of proposed changes is inappropriate, you may play your game yourselves after that.

Oh ok, you will stay and be playing and adapting with -20% ST dps and lack of non-ultimate aoe dps at all. Ok, good luck. Don't worry about QQs and goodbyes, we old farts come to forums even when we don't play a game, just to check what's up and have lulz.

Kalante · September 2019

Just look at steam charts and you will see your answer OP. Ever since Elsweyr this game has been bleeding players and it is happening on console too. Zos is actively destroying their game with all these dumb changes. Scalebreaker took the cake, the worst patch that has ever released in eso by far. To me the addition of ult delay was the last drop so I just called it quits pvp is already is a laggy mess and as a brawler medium stam nb I don't feel like playing anymore. It's funny seeing them reverting all the crazy dots that implemented last patch though, everyone told them it was too much but does zos ever listens? no. Ive never seen zos do a change that makes sense not even once. Hence the game it is where it is.

coradaelu · September 2019

Last patch was bad, they are going to the right direction now hope they follow that, people will have to adapt to the new changes.

jecks33 · September 2019

some of my (endgamers) friends stop playing when murkmire come out, other friends quit during scalebreaker and other leave Eso after reading these patch notes (it's only the first pts, but the direction is clear).
80% of my friendlist disappear and during the last 6 months we had to merge 4 raid groups into one and sometimes we have to call some random to full the list

Rittings · September 2019

The massive nerfs coming have seen my guild lose so many members it's insane. It's not just new games coming out - new games are released weekly and it only has a minor knock-on effect... this is far deeper rooted... and it's rooted in the fact the game is moving in a direction that none of the consumers asked for... but we are being forced to make a choice... and some are very clear about their choices.

code65536 · September 2019

When a game feels more exhausting than fun, when people dread patch notes instead of looking forward to them, you know it's time to get a new combat team.

Blackleopardex · September 2019

It's funny to me how I still wanna play the game, yet after craft-dailies/refill of guild-stores i just log off out of boredom... Shut down my raid-group for good last night after trying to rebuild it since early Scalebreaker. Well, creeping in the shadows waiting for pvp-magblade to improve and to actually have fun doing pve on any class...
Edit: That said I think the dot nerfs are a step in the right direction, does not mean there are not more to be done.

mikemacon · September 2019

It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.

I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).

...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Drako_Ei · September 2019

mikemacon wrote: »

It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.

I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).

...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps

Sanguinor2 · September 2019

mikemacon wrote: »

It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.

I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).

...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What you say is only partly correct. While many dont know how lunar Phase for example works anymore (was Pretty funny to do dromathra destroyer for some People but only 3 out of 12 People knew how lunar worked) newest Content was made with Elsweyr dps in mind. You might not remember but after PTS testing of vSS hm some bosses got massive buffs in Terms of Health or on the last boss the eternal servant got his Health multiplied by 4 I believe (might be 3 not 100% sure) because they wanted to make it more difficult and more equal to current dps Levels.

MehrunesFlagon · September 2019

I think back bar vMA staff on stam builds says it all with this patch.Of all the things that could end up being bis,this is the outright stupidest.

Rungar · September 2019

Perhaps that's the goal. It actually makes sense because trials guilds folk are extremely resistant and vocal to any changes that challenges the exclusivity. Perhaps its not worth it anymore for zos.

This game would of been so much better without trials and im not knocking those that like them. Im just old school daoc.

LadyNalcarya · September 2019

mikemacon wrote: »

It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.

I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).

...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Achievement requirements say otherwise.
vMoL was designed for 2016 level of dps, all dps checks here are around 20-25k I think (if you're not skipping any mechanics). Now compare it to requirements for vSS, vAS and vCR hardmodes.
But of course, it's easier to think that all raiding guilds are actually noobs... Then why there's so few players who manage to beat those new hardmodes if any noob can do that?

TelvanniWizard · September 2019

I used to pug all trials in normal, through Belkarth grouping, before Elsweyr. There was always several groups forming for the different normal trials (and vet Crag ones), in the weekends. Now, there is almost none. Just a timid nCr from time to time

BloodMagicLord · September 2019

slofwnd wrote: »

General direction, or better to say lack of direction where combat is going during Scalebreaker and Dragonhold destroyed end-game pve population.
It's increasingly hard to find trial groups and guolds lately due to the fact that players just left the game and do not want to play anymore.
Scalebreaker healer and geiund dots nerfs were padded by single target dot buffs, so we were able to keep up the dps in trial groups. Once 5.2 patch notes were released I can't fill a trial roster in the last active trial guild I had.
Is that what developers want the game to be? Drive away players who were loyal to the game for years?

You know, once upon a time trials were actually hard, right? DDs had to run defensive ultimates and weren't pulling 100k DPS. This situation is ridiculous and it's good that ZOS is finally addressing it. Some players may dislike this and quit rather than adapt to the change, but if that's the case then they probably weren't too far from quitting anyways.

LadyNalcarya · September 2019

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

General direction, or better to say lack of direction where combat is going during Scalebreaker and Dragonhold destroyed end-game pve population.
It's increasingly hard to find trial groups and guolds lately due to the fact that players just left the game and do not want to play anymore.
Scalebreaker healer and geiund dots nerfs were padded by single target dot buffs, so we were able to keep up the dps in trial groups. Once 5.2 patch notes were released I can't fill a trial roster in the last active trial guild I had.
Is that what developers want the game to be? Drive away players who were loyal to the game for years?

You know, once upon a time trials were actually hard, right? DDs had to run defensive ultimates and weren't pulling 100k DPS. This situation is ridiculous and it's good that ZOS is finally addressing it. Some players may dislike this and quit rather than adapt to the change, but if that's the case then they probably weren't too far from quitting anyways.

Funny that you mention it... Things like vAA (just AA back in the days) are mechanically much easier than the new trials. They were mostly just stack-and-burns. With defensive ults, yes, but still easy as pie from technical standpoint.
Edit: actually, vMoL was so difficult on release partly because you couldn't just stand there, dps and mitigate stuff with veils and novas.

StackonClown · September 2019

code65536 wrote: »

>>>> when people dread patch notes instead of looking forward to them<<<<<

Nailed it!
One of the best comments I've seen in all my time on these forums.

@ZOS_GinaBruno ; @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Epicasballs · September 2019

Rungar wrote: »

Perhaps that's the goal. It actually makes sense because trials guilds folk are extremely resistant and vocal to any changes that challenges the exclusivity. Perhaps its not worth it anymore for zos.

This game would of been so much better without trials and im not knocking those that like them. Im just old school daoc.

Wait...

An MMO with no group content... go back to skyrim then. What's the point of an MMO with no group content?

Even dungeons that get released have had there rewards removed. I dont now anyone who has done speed/no death/hm since Moonhunter because the rewards are gone in newly released dungeons.

Now you want them to remove trials... what would be left? Once you clear quests you just play something else. MMOs are about community and working together towards a goal. Sadly the rewards for doing such are being stripped from the game. That new skin in the crown store should been earned in game. ZOS is selling their game short. Selling us short.

Earning skins and personalities from trials and dungeons gives a sense of accomplishment. It also forms bonds among players. You need others to help you earn those things strengthening community ties. You want to end that?... sadly dungeons have already lost these rewards. All we have left are trials.

SodanTok · September 2019

So many patches ESO has, so many game changing patches people dislike yet people always stop playing the most at the same time. Is ZoS intentionally releasing end-game pop destroying patches at this time? Or are people just stopping playing at this time for different reason? Lets not find out and assume its patches to drive the narrative.

Vahrokh · September 2019

I play(ed) in 3 trials guilds at the same time, until Scalebreaker. Done hm vMOL and above.

Since Murkmire the game is sinking DOWN and crashing harder than a crazed Titanic.

The highest level of these trial guilds (we downed vCR + 2 at day 0 of the guild creation...) has already shut down.
The second, much more casual, used to have 2 trials a week, now it's down to one because we can't find enough people any more. We are not "elite" here, there's just a grinding halt to new members applications.
The 3rd, they used to do hm vMOL and above, now I don't really see doing anything above vMOL any more. Most top players quit in the last few months.

Scalebreaker has been the tipping point. I play the same zones since beta and since Scalebreaker it's become so desert you can't even find a damn soul to do world bosses dailies and similar (unless you are in Summerset / Elsweyr).

BAD gameplay. BAD server performance. AWFUL PvP. BAD classes loss of identity and fun.

What else to say?

ATM I am unsubbed and enjoying Classic WoW. THAT is a proper, awesome MMO. All about being social, team player, FAIR challenge.

No asinine "today we nerf XYZ by 70%, tomorrow we rebuff it to +190%, the next day we nerf it again by 200%.

ESO: approaching game over, fast.

Dagoth_Rac · September 2019

mikemacon wrote: »

It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.

I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).

...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The problem though is that often the mechanic is DPS. In a lot of ESO content, if your DPS is above "X" (and that number can vary from Trial to Trial and boss to boss), the content is fairly easy. If your DPS is blow "X", you wipe. It is a very black and white approach to mechanics. If the loss of DPS made people say, "Oh geez, killing boss A is gonna take 20 minutes now instead of 10 minutes," or, "Oh geez, we are gonna see that mechanic 5 times now instead of 3, which gives us 2 extra times to mess it up," I think there would be less outrage. But people see these changes and are like, "Oh geez, if our guild's average in-Trial DPS drops from 35k to 28k, it is not gonna take us longer to get a clear, or require us to handle more or new mechanics, it is going to be impossible."

The DPS obsession in this game is because there are so many bright-line DPS walls. It is rare that content is harder because of lowered DPS. Content becomes impossible. This is no fun for high-end groups, either! This whip-sawing back and forth between easy and impossible based on hard DPS checks all over the content is why there is such a disconnect between some forum goers saying "game too easy" and others saying, "my guild is collapsing because game is impossible."

ziaodix · September 2019

They're just following the old mantra, "You have to break it before you can fix." Granted they've been "breaking" it for quite some time now and we're all still wondering when the "fix" it phase begins, but I digress.

SeaUnicorn · September 2019

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

mikemacon wrote: »

It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.

I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).

...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The problem though is that often the mechanic is DPS. In a lot of ESO content, if your DPS is above "X" (and that number can vary from Trial to Trial and boss to boss), the content is fairly easy. If your DPS is blow "X", you wipe. It is a very black and white approach to mechanics. If the loss of DPS made people say, "Oh geez, killing boss A is gonna take 20 minutes now instead of 10 minutes," or, "Oh geez, we are gonna see that mechanic 5 times now instead of 3, which gives us 2 extra times to mess it up," I think there would be less outrage. But people see these changes and are like, "Oh geez, if our guild's average in-Trial DPS drops from 35k to 28k, it is not gonna take us longer to get a clear, or require us to handle more or new mechanics, it is going to be impossible."

The DPS obsession in this game is because there are so many bright-line DPS walls. It is rare that content is harder because of lowered DPS. Content becomes impossible. This is no fun for high-end groups, either! This whip-sawing back and forth between easy and impossible based on hard DPS checks all over the content is why there is such a disconnect between some forum goers saying "game too easy" and others saying, "my guild is collapsing because game is impossible."

Absolutely agree. Take vMOL HM. My group is currently progressing through it. 5 pad burn is alright, on 6th pad it turns into horrendous cancer of tether prog, ppl are dying like flies. Se we opted to bring as many stamcros as possible because we just can't deal with the mechs after 5th pad...

Czekoludek · September 2019

ziaodix wrote: »

They're just following the old mantra, "You have to break it before you can fix." Granted they've been "breaking" it for quite some time now and we're all still wondering when the "fix" it phase begins, but I digress.

Problem is, if they increase dmg of certain abilities by a lot while ppl saying it's too much, and next patch they destroyed the same abilities by even more giant nerfs while ppl still learning new rotations and also saying the nerfs are too big, you will start to question dev understanding of the game.
What is sad, the game was at very good state in Elsweyr. They should adjust dots by a little, work on some underperforming classes, balance stam vs mag issue and never let necros have so op ulti. But they choose to play buff/nerf rollercoaster and meta players hate that game. It is good to change things but not every 2-3 months.

Calm_Fury · September 2019

slofwnd wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

mikemacon wrote: »

It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.

I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).

...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The problem though is that often the mechanic is DPS. In a lot of ESO content, if your DPS is above "X" (and that number can vary from Trial to Trial and boss to boss), the content is fairly easy. If your DPS is blow "X", you wipe. It is a very black and white approach to mechanics. If the loss of DPS made people say, "Oh geez, killing boss A is gonna take 20 minutes now instead of 10 minutes," or, "Oh geez, we are gonna see that mechanic 5 times now instead of 3, which gives us 2 extra times to mess it up," I think there would be less outrage. But people see these changes and are like, "Oh geez, if our guild's average in-Trial DPS drops from 35k to 28k, it is not gonna take us longer to get a clear, or require us to handle more or new mechanics, it is going to be impossible."

The DPS obsession in this game is because there are so many bright-line DPS walls. It is rare that content is harder because of lowered DPS. Content becomes impossible. This is no fun for high-end groups, either! This whip-sawing back and forth between easy and impossible based on hard DPS checks all over the content is why there is such a disconnect between some forum goers saying "game too easy" and others saying, "my guild is collapsing because game is impossible."

Absolutely agree. Take vMOL HM. My group is currently progressing through it. 5 pad burn is alright, on 6th pad it turns into horrendous cancer of tether prog, ppl are dying like flies. Se we opted to bring as many stamcros as possible because we just can't deal with the mechs after 5th pad...

I agree with the DPS nerfs, but this is what kills population when nerfs happen.

I remember vividly my beginner guild progressing Crag Trials HM and speed runs before Morrowind. We were all really close, getting to 15-10% and 1-2 minutes before wiping. Then the patch hit and we felt like we went back 4-5 weeks in time.

This might be needed, but it is demoralizing all the same.

I think ZOS themselves have NO IDEA whatsoever of what DPS ceiling they want.

They should have an internal goal, something like "The max DPS a player can hit in a trial dummy should be 75k". And then, instead of letting players hit 110k and then nerfing, they should always, with every patch and set, make sure that ceiling is not broken.