I struggle to understand all the hate in Update 24

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

redspecter23 wrote: »

Negative progression is not a good thing for many players. A nerf may be seen as good for balance but many just see it as a set back in terms of months or even years of progress. Why chase that 1% or 2% increase when you just lost 30%. It's absolutely demoralizing.

Absolute truth. I wish someone at ZOS can read this. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Nerhesi · September 2019

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.

DoT did not become BIS universally. It became a feature in 50% of builds... which was better than 0%.

Yet somehow - going back to having no viable DoT Builds in an RPG is a good thing? You're ok it seems with the most homogeneous RPG Builds of any MMO era because of the lack of class identity and the availability of skills.

_ The game was lacking in class identities -.

And it always will because of availability of general (weapon, world, guild etc) skill lines that actually provide ability.
You want class identity? Give classes superior tools - dots or otherwise.

You want variety? The meta needs to be more than just spammable-CC-ult. You need to have dots, you need to have attrition, you need to have DPS unable to heal themselves to any comparable level, etc etc

The game had taken one step forward in introducing something OTHER than spammable-DD.
It had to start taking more steps in that direction to help identity and variety.

It didnt - it went back 2 steps.

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

Nerhesi wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.

DoT did not become BIS universally. It became a feature in 50% of builds... which was better than 0%.

Yet somehow - going back to having no viable DoT Builds in an RPG is a good thing? You're ok it seems with the most homogeneous RPG Builds of any MMO era because of the lack of class identity and the availability of skills.

_ The game was lacking in class identities -.

And it always will because of availability of general (weapon, world, guild etc) skill lines that actually provide ability.
You want class identity? Give classes superior tools - dots or otherwise.

You want variety? The meta needs to be more than just spammable-CC-ult. You need to have dots, you need to have attrition, you need to have DPS unable to heal themselves to any comparable level, etc etc

The game had taken one step forward in introducing something OTHER than spammable-DD.
It had to start taking more steps in that direction to help identity and variety.

It didnt - it went back 2 steps.

I was talking about both PVE and PVP, so even with Update 24, DOTs will still be extremely relevant.
Also, when have we ever reached 0% DOT builds in PVP? I don't think we have ever even reached 10% or 20%, not with how Templar and DK kits work.

Varana · September 2019

- 100k parses were not the norm. The large majority of players never hit anything close to that; even really good endgame players missed it by quite a bit. Also, the iron target dummy has absolutely nothing to do with ingame reality. It overbuffs your damage numbers to a ridiculous extent. The only justification for using its numbers was comparison between parses on this dummy.
- Sure. But spammables are nice and shiny but you only ever use exactly one. Also, see next point.
- They didn't just make AoE DoTs more expensive. They nerfed them at the same time - and that was something no one needed. AoE DoTs were not overperforming; in fact, the "DoT meta" of last patch should've been more precisely called "single target DoT meta". They gave absolutely no reason why AoEs were not only made more expensive but also got a considerable nerf.

And that is the reason for the "hate". They didn't just adjust overperforming skills to reasonable levels, they slashed damage in general. Without ever explaining why. (They didn't even say "damage was too high". That would've been a reason. They didn't bother to do even that.)

daedalusAI · September 2019

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.
_ AOE DOTs has no clear disadvantage to single target DOTs, especially in PVE -> ZOS implement the rule so that AOE DOTs will always cost much more than single target one.
_ The game was lacking in class identities -> ZOS... well... they tried, I guess? Not sure how these changes will turn out, but I'm 100% not into throwing turd 5 times with my stamDK (Don't you dare tell me that tiny black piece of crap is a "stone fist")
As someone who play both PVE and PVP, and have witness tons of "this game is dead" post for the last 3 years or so, this time with Update 24, I'm just lost. Funny enough, people in my guilds and discord are quite ok with this patch and they at least understand why these changes got made. I'm not sure what it is, but this forum is 1000x times more toxic than the actual in-game community, and you guys really cannot make up your mind. This is, by far, the most flip-flop forum I've ever seen in any online game I've ever played.
That being said, reading all the salty posts for how "this theory crafting I've just made 5 mins ago is so OP" or "This game is dead because it's not going the way I want" is pretty hilarious at times, honestly.

Labeling criticism as "hate" already gets you a place on my "questionable individual" list.

ZOS blew the DoT scaling out of proportion with U23, and now they have to make a 180° in getting it down to 1.25x instead of 2.5x scaling - which just screams inability/laziness/no scope etc. to me
If using spammables is the designed scope of ESO's combat why are there even DoTs, which now will receive quite hefty downscaling as far as their damage is concerned? ZOS is just forcing the spammable playstyle and not considering that DoT-builds are also viable builds
ZOS destroyed the AoE scaling of DoTs, just to revert it 1 patch later, but now with additional costs. Yet again utter inability being forced to make a 180° yet again
"They tried for class balance" is just an euphemism for "they failed spectacularly"
I hope the "You guys can't make up your mind" is directed as ZOS too, because they're doing 180° game changes every major patch it seems, with no clear idea of direction this game is supposed to go

Tannus15 · September 2019

Dots are now useless.

the best way to build is minimal dots and to stack your CP into direct damage.

Ground dots now utterly kill your sustain.

My main is a Breton mag sorc running false god and absorb mag front bar enchant and vampire and I can't sustain on the 21m if I'm running unstable wall and lightning flood.

My mag drain has jumped 400pts a second to 1700+ and at the same time as i've lost regen from degeneration, the patch after they nerf regen food.

MartiniDaniels · September 2019

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.
_ AOE DOTs has no clear disadvantage to single target DOTs, especially in PVE -> ZOS implement the rule so that AOE DOTs will always cost much more than single target one.
_ The game was lacking in class identities -> ZOS... well... they tried, I guess? Not sure how these changes will turn out, but I'm 100% not into throwing turd 5 times with my stamDK (Don't you dare tell me that tiny black piece of crap is a "stone fist")
As someone who play both PVE and PVP, and have witness tons of "this game is dead" post for the last 3 years or so, this time with Update 24, I'm just lost. Funny enough, people in my guilds and discord are quite ok with this patch and they at least understand why these changes got made. I'm not sure what it is, but this forum is 1000x times more toxic than the actual in-game community, and you guys really cannot make up your mind. This is, by far, the most flip-flop forum I've ever seen in any online game I've ever played.
That being said, reading all the salty posts for how "this theory crafting I've just made 5 mins ago is so OP" or "This game is dead because it's not going the way I want" is pretty hilarious at times, honestly.

Lol, Liko's parses in real trial setup only hits around 100k, so where 100k became a norm lol? Also trial dummy is trial dummy, plz show me somebody 70k self-buffed 6M parse to verify that power creep really happened? Also this is mostly about single target damage and I'm sure we can adapt to do agreeable ST damage but what about real content and AOE?I'm just wondering how you gonna deal with stack&burn adds when ALL aoe was nerfed in oblivion, so it does miserable damage and has 4-5k costs.

daedalusAI · September 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

Dots are now useless.

the best way to build is minimal dots and to stack your CP into direct damage.

Ground dots now utterly kill your sustain.

My main is a Breton mag sorc running false god and absorb mag front bar enchant and vampire and I can't sustain on the 21m if I'm running unstable wall and lightning flood.

My mag drain has jumped 400pts a second to 1700+ and at the same time as i've lost regen from degeneration, the patch after they nerf regen food.

I got it!
The scope is do force Heavy-Attacks in between every rotation or less, you know, for build diversity?

That's about the only educated actual guess I can make based on the patch notes.

Rungar · September 2019

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

100k dps as a norm? Only top elite players did that. I'm almost sure 80% (probably more) of players struggle to reach 30k. The nerfs will hurt the casual/progression majority, and the guys who achieve 100k will somehow, after the nerfs, reach 110k. That's how it has been for long. Ultra-no lifers pushing dps boundaries higher each patch. If ZOS really wanted to fix things, Animation cancelling would be eliminated, and skills could be balanced then.

You shouldn't say animation cancelling because that includes block, roll dodge and interrupt which are all wonderful. You should say animation cancelling for dps aka weaving, bash cancelling and bar cancelling.

i do agree with you though, nothing can be balanced until that is fixed. Not even performance. Why zos chooses to remain oblivious to it i don't know.

nobody talks much about it anymore because they all left for other games. Anytime you find someone who doesn't play eso anymore you always get back the same answer: shoddy combat system aka the weaving system.

tbh, ZOS have already shot themselves in the foot. They cannot pull back animation canceling at any cost at this point, since it is now a "feature" of this game's core combat mechanic. Forget about class identity or nerf hammer, eliminating animation canceling is a 1 way ticket to bankruptcy for ZOS. It doesn't matter whether anyone hate it or not at this point, animation canceling is here to stay.

That isn't true at all. The number of people who use this mechanic is related to the number of people who can access vet trials and vet dlc dungeons which is beyond abysmal. The number of people that it keeps away from this content is no small number. At least in pvp if you don't use it you get wrecked from time to time but you can still play. I imagine they have lost more over this one thing than all other issues combined. I also think getting rid of it will bring alot of people back.

do i care if 2% of players find it boring. No. Didnt they all quit last month anyway?

TelvanniWizard · September 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.
_ AOE DOTs has no clear disadvantage to single target DOTs, especially in PVE -> ZOS implement the rule so that AOE DOTs will always cost much more than single target one.
_ The game was lacking in class identities -> ZOS... well... they tried, I guess? Not sure how these changes will turn out, but I'm 100% not into throwing turd 5 times with my stamDK (Don't you dare tell me that tiny black piece of crap is a "stone fist")
As someone who play both PVE and PVP, and have witness tons of "this game is dead" post for the last 3 years or so, this time with Update 24, I'm just lost. Funny enough, people in my guilds and discord are quite ok with this patch and they at least understand why these changes got made. I'm not sure what it is, but this forum is 1000x times more toxic than the actual in-game community, and you guys really cannot make up your mind. This is, by far, the most flip-flop forum I've ever seen in any online game I've ever played.
That being said, reading all the salty posts for how "this theory crafting I've just made 5 mins ago is so OP" or "This game is dead because it's not going the way I want" is pretty hilarious at times, honestly.

Labeling criticism as "hate" already gets you a place on my "questionable individual" list.
ZOS blew the DoT scaling out of proportion with U23, and now they have to make a 180° in getting it down to 1.25x instead of 2.5x scaling - which just screams inability/laziness/no scope etc. to me

If using spammables is the designed scope of ESO's combat why are there even DoTs, which now will receive quite hefty downscaling as far as their damage is concerned? ZOS is just forcing the spammable playstyle and not considering that DoT-builds are also viable builds

ZOS destroyed the AoE scaling of DoTs, just to revert it 1 patch later, but now with additional costs. Yet again utter inability being forced to make a 180° yet again

"They tried for class balance" is just an euphemism for "they failed spectacularly"

I hope the "You guys can't make up your mind" is directed as ZOS too, because they're doing 180° game changes every major patch it seems, with no clear idea of direction this game is supposed to go

This post is so damm right

SFDB · September 2019

Mary Poppins said that a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down.

ZoS has decided medicine is just fine, thank you very much.

One of my other MMOs had a nerf recently, but it came with a bunch of new and interesting combat stuff as well. If we had something like that, then at least the nerfs would be a bit easier to swallow.

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.
_ AOE DOTs has no clear disadvantage to single target DOTs, especially in PVE -> ZOS implement the rule so that AOE DOTs will always cost much more than single target one.
_ The game was lacking in class identities -> ZOS... well... they tried, I guess? Not sure how these changes will turn out, but I'm 100% not into throwing turd 5 times with my stamDK (Don't you dare tell me that tiny black piece of crap is a "stone fist")
As someone who play both PVE and PVP, and have witness tons of "this game is dead" post for the last 3 years or so, this time with Update 24, I'm just lost. Funny enough, people in my guilds and discord are quite ok with this patch and they at least understand why these changes got made. I'm not sure what it is, but this forum is 1000x times more toxic than the actual in-game community, and you guys really cannot make up your mind. This is, by far, the most flip-flop forum I've ever seen in any online game I've ever played.
That being said, reading all the salty posts for how "this theory crafting I've just made 5 mins ago is so OP" or "This game is dead because it's not going the way I want" is pretty hilarious at times, honestly.

Labeling criticism as "hate" already gets you a place on my "questionable individual" list.
ZOS blew the DoT scaling out of proportion with U23, and now they have to make a 180° in getting it down to 1.25x instead of 2.5x scaling - which just screams inability/laziness/no scope etc. to me

If using spammables is the designed scope of ESO's combat why are there even DoTs, which now will receive quite hefty downscaling as far as their damage is concerned? ZOS is just forcing the spammable playstyle and not considering that DoT-builds are also viable builds

ZOS destroyed the AoE scaling of DoTs, just to revert it 1 patch later, but now with additional costs. Yet again utter inability being forced to make a 180° yet again

"They tried for class balance" is just an euphemism for "they failed spectacularly"

I hope the "You guys can't make up your mind" is directed as ZOS too, because they're doing 180° game changes every major patch it seems, with no clear idea of direction this game is supposed to go

1. ZOS do a 180 because they know that they screwed it up in Update 23, they've admitted to it, and we all know that it would happen.
2. I said spammable was irrelevant, so I'm happy that spammable is now usable again. I've never said that spammable is the true way of playing ESO.
3. Again, just like #1, ZOS know they screwed it up.
4. I've been seeing that for 4 years straight now, so I'm no longer feel anything.
5. Yep, totally.
Btw, do I get any bonus for getting into your "questionable individual" list?

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

Rungar wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

100k dps as a norm? Only top elite players did that. I'm almost sure 80% (probably more) of players struggle to reach 30k. The nerfs will hurt the casual/progression majority, and the guys who achieve 100k will somehow, after the nerfs, reach 110k. That's how it has been for long. Ultra-no lifers pushing dps boundaries higher each patch. If ZOS really wanted to fix things, Animation cancelling would be eliminated, and skills could be balanced then.

You shouldn't say animation cancelling because that includes block, roll dodge and interrupt which are all wonderful. You should say animation cancelling for dps aka weaving, bash cancelling and bar cancelling.

i do agree with you though, nothing can be balanced until that is fixed. Not even performance. Why zos chooses to remain oblivious to it i don't know.

nobody talks much about it anymore because they all left for other games. Anytime you find someone who doesn't play eso anymore you always get back the same answer: shoddy combat system aka the weaving system.

tbh, ZOS have already shot themselves in the foot. They cannot pull back animation canceling at any cost at this point, since it is now a "feature" of this game's core combat mechanic. Forget about class identity or nerf hammer, eliminating animation canceling is a 1 way ticket to bankruptcy for ZOS. It doesn't matter whether anyone hate it or not at this point, animation canceling is here to stay.

That isn't true at all. The number of people who use this mechanic is related to the number of people who can access vet trials and vet dlc dungeons which is beyond abysmal. The number of people that it keeps away from this content is no small number. At least in pvp if you don't use it you get wrecked from time to time but you can still play. I imagine they have lost more over this one thing than all other issues combined. I also think getting rid of it will bring alot of people back.

do i care if 2% of players find it boring. No. Didnt they all quit last month anyway?

As far as I know, every single legit PVPers abuse animation cancel and macro to the fullest

MartiniDaniels · September 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Dots are now useless.

the best way to build is minimal dots and to stack your CP into direct damage.

Ground dots now utterly kill your sustain.

My main is a Breton mag sorc running false god and absorb mag front bar enchant and vampire and I can't sustain on the 21m if I'm running unstable wall and lightning flood.

My mag drain has jumped 400pts a second to 1700+ and at the same time as i've lost regen from degeneration, the patch after they nerf regen food.

I got it!
The scope is do force Heavy-Attacks in between every rotation or less, you know, for build diversity?

That's about the only educated actual guess I can make based on the patch notes.

Then they should've buffed heavy attacks. If you want to have same group dps with severely nerfed dots, something else should be buffed, for example damage of light and heavy attacks... or only buff heavy attacks if that was the purpose or reduce off-balance cool down on bosses, so with big off-balance uptimes heavy attacks will be more viable.

But NOTHING was buffed, there is no single buff in this patch. So how people expect to reach same dps by "adapting" lol. No way, mathematics won't allow it. Best result you can see is people doing agreeable ST dps while aoe dps will be utter sht. Most probably groups will consist of 4 most relevant magclasses for destro ult and 4 stamcros who will keep their ulti until adds spawn and then just release all this in coordinated move.

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Dots are now useless.

the best way to build is minimal dots and to stack your CP into direct damage.

Ground dots now utterly kill your sustain.

My main is a Breton mag sorc running false god and absorb mag front bar enchant and vampire and I can't sustain on the 21m if I'm running unstable wall and lightning flood.

My mag drain has jumped 400pts a second to 1700+ and at the same time as i've lost regen from degeneration, the patch after they nerf regen food.

I got it!
The scope is do force Heavy-Attacks in between every rotation or less, you know, for build diversity?

That's about the only educated actual guess I can make based on the patch notes.

Oh god, not the Morrowind patch again!

Mannix1958 · September 2019

thatlaurachick wrote: »

Agree completely with OP. With all the “make overland harder!” posts, losing DPS will make overland a bit more challenging.
(or just don’t allocate CP, you can decide level of challenge)

Overall I’m happy with U24. Still think Templar is going to be OP in PvP, but at least my Warden can compete again. And my stamDK can use class damage skills.

But I've been on the PTS...the overland stuff is still easy...it was not really affected much. Now I am parsing 20-40% less on dummies and yet to see what challenges lie in World bosses, Dungeon bosses etc...but this misses the mark on making overland harder by a mile.

daedalusAI · September 2019

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.
_ AOE DOTs has no clear disadvantage to single target DOTs, especially in PVE -> ZOS implement the rule so that AOE DOTs will always cost much more than single target one.
_ The game was lacking in class identities -> ZOS... well... they tried, I guess? Not sure how these changes will turn out, but I'm 100% not into throwing turd 5 times with my stamDK (Don't you dare tell me that tiny black piece of crap is a "stone fist")
As someone who play both PVE and PVP, and have witness tons of "this game is dead" post for the last 3 years or so, this time with Update 24, I'm just lost. Funny enough, people in my guilds and discord are quite ok with this patch and they at least understand why these changes got made. I'm not sure what it is, but this forum is 1000x times more toxic than the actual in-game community, and you guys really cannot make up your mind. This is, by far, the most flip-flop forum I've ever seen in any online game I've ever played.
That being said, reading all the salty posts for how "this theory crafting I've just made 5 mins ago is so OP" or "This game is dead because it's not going the way I want" is pretty hilarious at times, honestly.

Labeling criticism as "hate" already gets you a place on my "questionable individual" list.
ZOS blew the DoT scaling out of proportion with U23, and now they have to make a 180° in getting it down to 1.25x instead of 2.5x scaling - which just screams inability/laziness/no scope etc. to me

If using spammables is the designed scope of ESO's combat why are there even DoTs, which now will receive quite hefty downscaling as far as their damage is concerned? ZOS is just forcing the spammable playstyle and not considering that DoT-builds are also viable builds

ZOS destroyed the AoE scaling of DoTs, just to revert it 1 patch later, but now with additional costs. Yet again utter inability being forced to make a 180° yet again

"They tried for class balance" is just an euphemism for "they failed spectacularly"

I hope the "You guys can't make up your mind" is directed as ZOS too, because they're doing 180° game changes every major patch it seems, with no clear idea of direction this game is supposed to go

1. ZOS do a 180 because they know that they screwed it up in Update 23, they've admitted to it, and we all know that it would happen.
2. I said spammable was irrelevant, so I'm happy that spammable is now usable again. I've never said that spammable is the true way of playing ESO.
3. Again, just like #1, ZOS know they screwed it up.
4. I've been seeing that for 4 years straight now, so I'm no longer feel anything.
5. Yep, totally.
Btw, do I get any bonus for getting into your "questionable individual" list?

Can you link me something in which they actually state "We know we failed hard", and not just a few words in the patch notes like downscaling of DoT damage from 2.5x to 1.25x?
How can you make spammables useful without nerfing DoT damage? If spammables offer no clear advantage compared to DoTs there no benefit of ever using them
You get extra scrutiny from me when I dissect your posts for being on the list, though you can redeem yourself by making logical arguments using precise language with no generalizations

Faulgor · September 2019

I agree with ZOS' intent, but the numbers aren't quite there yet.

I hope they listen to constructive feedback this patch and make some adjustments before it goes live.

Vigawatt · September 2019

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.

Please explain what metric ZOS is using to determine that Update 23 missed the mark, and explain why they couldn't have used that metric during the 5 weeks of PTS testing. My frustration stems from the PTS. They make these decisions and change their minds in 3 months, make it seem like their combat goals are aimless, while there is a period of time meant for testing. If they boosted DOTs too much in week 1, then by week 3 dialed it back, that sounds very appropriate. But that's not what happens.

Maybe it's too much for ZOS to adjust combat changes during the same time as they are testing for new content, in which case they should separate them. Do not release new content in conjunction with a patch if you can't work on both during a PTS.

master_vanargand · September 2019

Toxic is ZOS.

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2019

thatlaurachick wrote: »

Agree completely with OP. With all the “make overland harder!” posts, losing DPS will make overland a bit more challenging.
(or just don’t allocate CP, you can decide level of challenge)

You've got to be kidding. As if the DoT nerfs would do anything to overland content. Stuff dies like flies there, no DoTs needed, All it archieves is pushing back progression groups.

jaysins · September 2019

I think people are upset at their inability to make well thought out and consistent changes as well as listen to feedback on the PTS when the issues with DOT damage, and others, were well reported on and, let's be honest here, should have been extremely obvious to anyone who plays this game or someone developing it. It creates a pendulum where things keep swinging in dramatic fashion back and forth. They buff dizzying swing and then nerf it the very next patch and then make changes that neuter the skill and then they'll probably change back next patch. This creates an unbalanced game and like a pendulum as it swings quickly side to side, it doesn't get us anywhere as back and forth we go with the same old problems. Instead of fine tuning they continue to break things over and over. It just really seems like they're throwing things at the wall to see what sticks instead of actually understanding their own game and making well thought out planned decisions, which is irritatingly careless.

daedalusAI · September 2019

Vigawatt wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.

Please explain what metric ZOS is using to determine that Update 23 missed the mark, and explain why they couldn't have used that metric during the 5 weeks of PTS testing. My frustration stems from the PTS. They make these decisions and change their minds in 3 months, make it seem like their combat goals are aimless, while there is a period of time meant for testing. If they boosted DOTs too much in week 1, then by week 3 dialed it back, that sounds very appropriate. But that's not what happens.

Maybe it's too much for ZOS to adjust combat changes during the same time as they are testing for new content, in which case they should separate them. Do not release new content in conjunction with a patch if you can't work on both during a PTS.

Well the changes don't appear aimless, they are.

In a half-decent software company feedback would be valued, evaluated and QA would actually be doing their job - but as you can see it doesn't apply to ZOS, this small indie studio.

As I'm a QA professional: how can you miss such a glaring issue like the DoT scaling in U23 PTS and do nothing about it, just to be forced a few months later to do a 180° and cut the scaling down in half for your next major update?

This clear lack of ability, integrity, scope and disregard for the customer just blows my mind.

If something like the out-of-whack DoT scaling would be my task it wouldn't get my approval in this state, not a chance in hell.

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

Vigawatt wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.

Please explain what metric ZOS is using to determine that Update 23 missed the mark, and explain why they couldn't have used that metric during the 5 weeks of PTS testing. My frustration stems from the PTS. They make these decisions and change their minds in 3 months, make it seem like their combat goals are aimless, while there is a period of time meant for testing. If they boosted DOTs too much in week 1, then by week 3 dialed it back, that sounds very appropriate. But that's not what happens.

Maybe it's too much for ZOS to adjust combat changes during the same time as they are testing for new content, in which case they should separate them. Do not release new content in conjunction with a patch if you can't work on both during a PTS.

lol you're asking the wrong person, ask ZOS for more info XD I'm just a simple guy with a bit of hope for my fav game.

WrathOfInnos · September 2019

There’s a difference between slowing/stopping power creep, and instantly taking away everything we’ve gained over the last year or more.

thermatico · September 2019

The problem is the drastic changes each patch. Going from one extreme to another. They have no idea about "middle-ground".

Builds, bar set ups, etc will all change next patch. They just changed in the previous patch.

It's just frustrating.

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.
_ AOE DOTs has no clear disadvantage to single target DOTs, especially in PVE -> ZOS implement the rule so that AOE DOTs will always cost much more than single target one.
_ The game was lacking in class identities -> ZOS... well... they tried, I guess? Not sure how these changes will turn out, but I'm 100% not into throwing turd 5 times with my stamDK (Don't you dare tell me that tiny black piece of crap is a "stone fist")
As someone who play both PVE and PVP, and have witness tons of "this game is dead" post for the last 3 years or so, this time with Update 24, I'm just lost. Funny enough, people in my guilds and discord are quite ok with this patch and they at least understand why these changes got made. I'm not sure what it is, but this forum is 1000x times more toxic than the actual in-game community, and you guys really cannot make up your mind. This is, by far, the most flip-flop forum I've ever seen in any online game I've ever played.
That being said, reading all the salty posts for how "this theory crafting I've just made 5 mins ago is so OP" or "This game is dead because it's not going the way I want" is pretty hilarious at times, honestly.

Labeling criticism as "hate" already gets you a place on my "questionable individual" list.
ZOS blew the DoT scaling out of proportion with U23, and now they have to make a 180° in getting it down to 1.25x instead of 2.5x scaling - which just screams inability/laziness/no scope etc. to me

If using spammables is the designed scope of ESO's combat why are there even DoTs, which now will receive quite hefty downscaling as far as their damage is concerned? ZOS is just forcing the spammable playstyle and not considering that DoT-builds are also viable builds

ZOS destroyed the AoE scaling of DoTs, just to revert it 1 patch later, but now with additional costs. Yet again utter inability being forced to make a 180° yet again

"They tried for class balance" is just an euphemism for "they failed spectacularly"

I hope the "You guys can't make up your mind" is directed as ZOS too, because they're doing 180° game changes every major patch it seems, with no clear idea of direction this game is supposed to go

1. ZOS do a 180 because they know that they screwed it up in Update 23, they've admitted to it, and we all know that it would happen.
2. I said spammable was irrelevant, so I'm happy that spammable is now usable again. I've never said that spammable is the true way of playing ESO.
3. Again, just like #1, ZOS know they screwed it up.
4. I've been seeing that for 4 years straight now, so I'm no longer feel anything.
5. Yep, totally.
Btw, do I get any bonus for getting into your "questionable individual" list?

Can you link me something in which they actually state "We know we failed hard", and not just a few words in the patch notes like downscaling of DoT damage from 2.5x to 1.25x?

How can you make spammables useful without nerfing DoT damage? If spammables offer no clear advantage compared to DoTs there no benefit of ever using them

You get extra scrutiny from me when I dissect your posts for being on the list, though you can redeem yourself by making logical arguments using precise language with no generalizations

1. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492415/update-24-combat-preview#latest
2. Well the other option is to buff spammable, which will only feed into the power creep problem, which will probably cause more harm than good. I know that nerfing is not an ideal solution, and nobody wants to see their characters got butchered, yet this is the most effective way (if done correctly) to balance multiplayer games in general.
3. Ummmm, can I get a refund? Cause I'm pretty sure I've just generalized in section #2.

price101610 · September 2019

This may reduce the top player below 100k DPS again, but for all of us scrubs that were happy to finally break 60k on an iron, or were approaching 30k on a 3mil, I have a feeling we will be in for a rude awakening with U24. I’m on console, so I can’t hop on pts and test, but common sense would say a nerf of 50-67% on the major damage skills my DPS classes use is going to hurt...a lot. Guess my friends and fam will be happy that I’ll be playing Borderlands with them now.

Edit: if I have to change rotation, nbd, but I hope I can change it up and still maintain what I hit last patch.

Narvuntien · September 2019

With the kind of screeching that goes on every patch, I'd completely understand if they just never listened to anyone in this forum about how to make their game

This negativity, it's unbearable.

I was fully expecting that last patch was just a stepping stone for more changes later, so perhaps I ran off and grabbed a few extra skyshards and leveled up the mages guild or whatever in case I continued to need the skills.

last patch my dps jumped, my sustain was insanely high (too high) but I also ran out of space on my bar and struggled to find time in my rotation to use any spamables.

How few meta changes have you people been through these changes have been pretty consistently happening for years.

Alcast · September 2019

karios525 wrote: »

Maybe it is just me but everything became increasingly worse since woeler sold out and became a zos employee

I am fairly sure @Woeler is NOT working at ZOS.