I struggle to understand all the hate in Update 24

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.
_ AOE DOTs has no clear disadvantage to single target DOTs, especially in PVE -> ZOS implement the rule so that AOE DOTs will always cost much more than single target one.
_ The game was lacking in class identities -> ZOS... well... they tried, I guess? Not sure how these changes will turn out, but I'm 100% not into throwing turd 5 times with my stamDK (Don't you dare tell me that tiny black piece of crap is a "stone fist")
As someone who play both PVE and PVP, and have witness tons of "this game is dead" post for the last 3 years or so, this time with Update 24, I'm just lost. Funny enough, people in my guilds and discord are quite ok with this patch and they at least understand why these changes got made. I'm not sure what it is, but this forum is 1000x times more toxic than the actual in-game community, and you guys really cannot make up your mind. This is, by far, the most flip-flop forum I've ever seen in any online game I've ever played.
That being said, reading all the salty posts for how "this theory crafting I've just made 5 mins ago is so OP" or "This game is dead because it's not going the way I want" is pretty hilarious at times, honestly.

VaranisArano · September 2019

Power Creep - No one likes to get nerfed. Moreover, power creep effects different tiers differently. Progression groups often take the brunt of nerfs while the top tier DPS keeps climbing.

Other than that, we're on Stage 1 and 2: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483874/5-stages-of-patch-note-grief

Azyle1 · September 2019

No one likes negative progression. No one wants to lose 15 - 25K dps.

When Elswyr dropped, people were doing 90 - 100k dps (This is before the DoT buffs). Now, we are going to be weaker than 4 months ago.

Swiftnoodle · September 2019

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.
_ AOE DOTs has no clear disadvantage to single target DOTs, especially in PVE -> ZOS implement the rule so that AOE DOTs will always cost much more than single target one.
_ The game was lacking in class identities -> ZOS... well... they tried, I guess? Not sure how these changes will turn out, but I'm 100% not into throwing turd 5 times with my stamDK (Don't you dare tell me that tiny black piece of crap is a "stone fist")
As someone who play both PVE and PVP, and have witness tons of "this game is dead" post for the last 3 years or so, this time with Update 24, I'm just lost. Funny enough, people in my guilds and discord are quite ok with this patch and they at least understand why these changes got made. I'm not sure what it is, but this forum is 1000x times more toxic than the actual in-game community, and you guys really cannot make up your mind. This is, by far, the most flip-flop forum I've ever seen in any online game I've ever played.
That being said, reading all the salty posts for how "this theory crafting I've just made 5 mins ago is so OP" or "This game is dead because it's not going the way I want" is pretty hilarious at times, honestly.

Thank you for posting this! I agree 100%

I played a lot of MMOs and in every one of them, the forums contain the worst most toxic and selfish!
In-game community is not bad though.

Darkenarlol · September 2019

if ZOS will start to use x10 more

presice numbers in balancing

a.k.a 5% nerf/buff instead of 50%

the amount of hate will be

approximately 10 times lower

tsaescishoeshiner · September 2019

Post titles from the Dark Forums:

"This DoT Meta Is Under Control"

"The Competent Devs Are Once Again Revitalizing This Game"

"Really, ZoS? All My Guildmates Will Keep Playing Next Patch"

"Can We Get Fewer Frost Damage Morphs for Warden?"

The Devs have also improved at communication, giving us more short posts about what they're working on and why they make certain changes—and even adding a new Natch Pote stream. So hopefully people are able to start feeling more heard

Lughlongarm · September 2019

I agree completely.

Players upset because Entropy will have only have a 20k tooltip instead of a 40k tooltip.
If I was to tell ppl 6 mouths ago that Entropy will have a 20k tooltip, they would have screamed YES PLZZ / OP .
Dots in patch 24 are much more balanced and competitive compared to 6 mouths ago and you have much more options for dot builds(for both magicka and stamina), they are just not mandatory like how they used to be in patch 23 nor cancer like bleeds were in 21&22.

I benched myself for patch 23 and I'm happy to return for patch 24.

SeaUnicorn · September 2019

You forgot to mention yet another unwarranted nerf to ground aoes and increase in skill cost by a whooping 50%!

karios525 · September 2019

Are you for real? Employed by zos undoubtedly. As a tank of isn't difficult to see that the gap between normal dps and the 0.0000001% is going to increase exponentially. The whole combat system is a joke as it is not a wonder why so many players are going back to bdo. All they have done is increased the challenge of managing resources and ruined most builds. Luckily my dps builds are non meta as I expect to get screwed over by every patch as zos have no clue when it comes to balancing anything let alone fix anything. It just gets tiring watching zos ruin their own game. Maybe it is just me but everything became increasingly worse since woeler sold out and became a zos employee

Galarthor · September 2019

I agree! Overall I like this patch very much. It is correcting a lot of the mistakes that were made in the past - i.e. DoT and overall DPS being out of control.

A global cooldown dealing 2.5 times the damage than its equivalents might make for great DPS numbers, but it is just not balanced as anybody with some rudimentary math skills can see. In addition, the fact that AoE DoTs are BiS for single target DPS is indicative of how overpowered these DoTs are.

Sure people going purely by their DPS values will be disappointed their DPS decreases, but as long as this is happening consistently across classes there is nothing wrong with it as ZOS is simply correcting / fixing past mistakes.

I also like the changes to streak in theory. I will be testing how well the stun now works on mobile targets in PvP. Nonetheless, making the 2 morphs more distinct and both viable at the same time is something that has been overdue for years now. In addition, no longer getting stunned when streaking and as a result dying is a big plus!

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

slofwnd wrote: »

You forgot to mention yet another unwarranted nerf to ground aoes and increase in skill cost by a whooping 50%!

I actually did

Amoureros · September 2019

I agree completely. ZOS got the direction to a healthy way, cutting down things for the great result. Now I can slot utility skills for certain scenario. In this way, the game will be more fun to play.

TelvanniWizard · September 2019

100k dps as a norm? Only top elite players did that. I'm almost sure 80% (probably more) of players struggle to reach 30k. The nerfs will hurt the casual/progression majority, and the guys who achieve 100k will somehow, after the nerfs, reach 110k. That's how it has been for long. Ultra-no lifers pushing dps boundaries higher each patch. If ZOS really wanted to fix things, Animation cancelling would be eliminated, and skills could be balanced then.

SeaUnicorn · September 2019

My progression team is struggling to compete sunspire hard mode, hasn't got past lokkestiz. Average on the team player on the team pulls about 75k for mag, 85 for stam on a trials dummy. Now we get 20% damage nerf and will never complete sunspire hard mode... What did we ever do to ZOS to deserve such treatment I don't know.

CaffeinatedMayhem · September 2019

Agree completely with OP. With all the “make overland harder!” posts, losing DPS will make overland a bit more challenging.
(or just don’t allocate CP, you can decide level of challenge)

Overall I’m happy with U24. Still think Templar is going to be OP in PvP, but at least my Warden can compete again. And my stamDK can use class damage skills.

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

karios525 wrote: »

Are you for real? Employed by zos undoubtedly. As a tank of isn't difficult to see that the gap between normal dps and the 0.0000001% is going to increase exponentially. The whole combat system is a joke as it is not a wonder why so many players are going back to bdo. All they have done is increased the challenge of managing resources and ruined most builds. Luckily my dps builds are non meta as I expect to get screwed over by every patch as zos have no clue when it comes to balancing anything let alone fix anything. It just gets tiring watching zos ruin their own game. Maybe it is just me but everything became increasingly worse since woeler sold out and became a zos employee

Not sure about you, but most of my trial guildmates find that figuring out and adapting to the meta is the true endgame. It's kinda like theory crafting, except we actually grind and enjoy the ride.
Also, if there different between a top tier dps and a bottom tier one is getting wider, for an MMORPG, that's a big win.
Then again, those are just my opinions. YO ZOS! WHERE'S MY PAYCHECK??? I DON'T BECOME A SHILL FOR NOTHING!

Dottzgaming · September 2019

I'm going to steal my response from another thread. I think the hate stems from the fact that people are getting burnt out and exhausted because of the extreme balance swings we've seen in 2019.

While people can always argue the validity of a change, whether it's good or bad, etc, the fact of the matter is the game has been seeing increasingly dramatic buff/nerfs swings (i mean just look at these %'s on the patch notes the last 2 patches) and people are getting tired of it.

Dottzgaming wrote: »

Honestly, if this keeps happening, they will continue to drive more and more players away from their game.

If you look at Elsweyr, Scalebreaker, and Dragonhold, it looks like 3 totally different games with 3 totally different intended playstyles combat wise.

They need to just pick a direction and run with it, because this constant ping ponging of intended design philosophy is exhausting and burning their player base out.

Sarousse · September 2019

I'm fine with the dot nerfs, but for PvP it's too much. 20 to 30% would have been ok.

It will be incredibly hard once again to down turtle-los-abusers-heavy-armor-specs without serious DoT pression.

nafensoriel · September 2019

Darkenarlol wrote: »

if ZOS will start to use x10 more

presice numbers in balancing

a.k.a 5% nerf/buff instead of 50%

the amount of hate will be

approximately 10 times lower

Never balanced a game before?
There are no precise numbers. Everything is a snowball rolling down an infinitely tall mountain. Every action is unintended.
Balancing a video game is one part dartboard and one part voodoo mathematics.

Holycannoli · September 2019

Because they buffed DoTs to the moon last patch and nerfed them to the ground in PTS beyond even reverting the buffs. It shows a clear lack of planning and direction and meanwhile we are stuck respeccing and re-gearing yet again. They're just throwing changes out there and seeing what happens.

Give a man a 50% pay raise then lower his pay 63% the next month and see how he reacts.

I'd rather have the DoT buffs than all the nerfs in this PTS patch. Nobody likes severe nerfs and I'm not sure the team understands that. I mean they didn't even revert the previous patch's changes, they nerfed the DoTs above and beyond with cost increases.

Why? Why even bother with the August patch? Wtf.

redlink1979 · September 2019

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.
_ AOE DOTs has no clear disadvantage to single target DOTs, especially in PVE -> ZOS implement the rule so that AOE DOTs will always cost much more than single target one.
_ The game was lacking in class identities -> ZOS... well... they tried, I guess? Not sure how these changes will turn out, but I'm 100% not into throwing turd 5 times with my stamDK (Don't you dare tell me that tiny black piece of crap is a "stone fist")
As someone who play both PVE and PVP, and have witness tons of "this game is dead" post for the last 3 years or so, this time with Update 24, I'm just lost. Funny enough, people in my guilds and discord are quite ok with this patch and they at least understand why these changes got made. I'm not sure what it is, but this forum is 1000x times more toxic than the actual in-game community, and you guys really cannot make up your mind. This is, by far, the most flip-flop forum I've ever seen in any online game I've ever played.
That being said, reading all the salty posts for how "this theory crafting I've just made 5 mins ago is so OP" or "This game is dead because it's not going the way I want" is pretty hilarious at times, honestly.

The sky always falls here... At every update patch...

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

Dottzgaming wrote: »

I'm going to steal my response from another thread. I think the hate stems from the fact that people are getting burnt out and exhausted because of the extreme balance swings we've seen in 2019.

While people can always argue the validity of a change, whether it's good or bad, etc, but the fact of the matter is the game has been seeing increasingly dramatic buff/nerfs swings (i mean just look at these %'s on the patch notes the last 2 patches) and people are getting tired of it.

Dottzgaming wrote: »

Honestly, if this keeps happening, they will continue to drive more and more players away from their game.

If you look at Elsweyr, Scalebreaker, and Dragonhold, it looks like 3 totally different games with 3 totally different intended playstyles combat wise.

They need to just pick a direction and run with it, because this constant ping ponging of intended design philosophy is exhausting and burning their player base out.

Yep totally agree. I can understand that ZOS missed the mark big time in Update 23, and I commend them for admitting to it. That, however, doesn't mean they can just swing the balance back and forth like a freaking pendulum every 3 months.
If I'd have any suggestion, I think just separate the balance changes with the DLC patch. Make the balance changes happen more frequent, like every 2 weeks, but only for a small amount of change, like the rework for stamSorc pet + stamDK Turd Throw.

Witar · September 2019

Hey people were asking additional difficulty since most content was too easy. That's zos way of doing it haha. Instead of adjusting battle spirit in pvp zones to affect dots some way and leaving pve as is. I guess zos's indian coders just can't make it right.

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

Holycannoli wrote: »

Because they buffed DoTs to the moon last patch and nerfed them to the ground in PTS beyond even reverting the buffs. It shows a clear lack of planning and direction and meanwhile we are stuck respeccing and re-gearing yet again. They're just throwing changes out there and seeing what happens.

Give a man a 50% pay raise then lower his pay 63% the next month and see how he reacts.

I'd rather have the DoT buffs than all the nerfs in this PTS patch. Nobody likes severe nerfs and I'm not sure the team understands that. I mean they didn't even revert the previous patch's changes, they nerfed the DoTs above and beyond with cost increases.

Why? Why even bother with the August patch? Wtf.

To be fair, ZOs admitted that Update 23 "missed the mark", aka total failure of a patch. For that alone, we all knew that Update 24 will be a complete 180 compare to Update 23, but I can understand that not every single person playing this game should, or could follow every bit of news.
That being said, I'd be somewhat pissed if my boss pull this kind of bullcrap to my salary XD

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

redlink1979 wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I mean, isn't this what we asked for when Update 23 came out?
_ Power creep is out of control with 100k dps as a norm -> ZOS tone down the dps scale.
_ Single target DOTs became BIS and spammable became irrelevant -> ZOS admit that Update 23 missed the mark and nerf DOTs so spammable can shine.
_ AOE DOTs has no clear disadvantage to single target DOTs, especially in PVE -> ZOS implement the rule so that AOE DOTs will always cost much more than single target one.
_ The game was lacking in class identities -> ZOS... well... they tried, I guess? Not sure how these changes will turn out, but I'm 100% not into throwing turd 5 times with my stamDK (Don't you dare tell me that tiny black piece of crap is a "stone fist")
As someone who play both PVE and PVP, and have witness tons of "this game is dead" post for the last 3 years or so, this time with Update 24, I'm just lost. Funny enough, people in my guilds and discord are quite ok with this patch and they at least understand why these changes got made. I'm not sure what it is, but this forum is 1000x times more toxic than the actual in-game community, and you guys really cannot make up your mind. This is, by far, the most flip-flop forum I've ever seen in any online game I've ever played.
That being said, reading all the salty posts for how "this theory crafting I've just made 5 mins ago is so OP" or "This game is dead because it's not going the way I want" is pretty hilarious at times, honestly.

The sky always falls here... At every update patch...

What have the sky ever done to you....?

Rungar · September 2019

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

100k dps as a norm? Only top elite players did that. I'm almost sure 80% (probably more) of players struggle to reach 30k. The nerfs will hurt the casual/progression majority, and the guys who achieve 100k will somehow, after the nerfs, reach 110k. That's how it has been for long. Ultra-no lifers pushing dps boundaries higher each patch. If ZOS really wanted to fix things, Animation cancelling would be eliminated, and skills could be balanced then.

You shouldn't say animation cancelling because that includes block, roll dodge and interrupt which are all wonderful. You should say animation cancelling for dps aka weaving, bash cancelling and bar cancelling.

i do agree with you though, nothing can be balanced until that is fixed. Not even performance. Why zos chooses to remain oblivious to it i don't know.

nobody talks much about it anymore because they all left for other games. Anytime you find someone who doesn't play eso anymore you always get back the same answer: shoddy combat system aka the weaving system.

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

Witar wrote: »

Hey people were asking additional difficulty since most content was too easy. That's zos way of doing it haha. Instead of adjusting battle spirit in pvp zones to affect dots some way and leaving pve as is. I guess zos's indian coders just can't make it right.

lol what have the Indian ever done to you?

Witar · September 2019

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Witar wrote: »

Hey people were asking additional difficulty since most content was too easy. That's zos way of doing it haha. Instead of adjusting battle spirit in pvp zones to affect dots some way and leaving pve as is. I guess zos's indian coders just can't make it right.

lol what have the Indian ever done to you?

They are famous for outsourcing and bad code. Eso have plenty of both.

Pr0Skygon · September 2019

Rungar wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

100k dps as a norm? Only top elite players did that. I'm almost sure 80% (probably more) of players struggle to reach 30k. The nerfs will hurt the casual/progression majority, and the guys who achieve 100k will somehow, after the nerfs, reach 110k. That's how it has been for long. Ultra-no lifers pushing dps boundaries higher each patch. If ZOS really wanted to fix things, Animation cancelling would be eliminated, and skills could be balanced then.

You shouldn't say animation cancelling because that includes block, roll dodge and interrupt which are all wonderful. You should say animation cancelling for dps aka weaving, bash cancelling and bar cancelling.

i do agree with you though, nothing can be balanced until that is fixed. Not even performance. Why zos chooses to remain oblivious to it i don't know.

nobody talks much about it anymore because they all left for other games. Anytime you find someone who doesn't play eso anymore you always get back the same answer: shoddy combat system aka the weaving system.

tbh, ZOS have already shot themselves in the foot. They cannot pull back animation canceling at any cost at this point, since it is now a "feature" of this game's core combat mechanic. Forget about class identity or nerf hammer, eliminating animation canceling is a 1 way ticket to bankruptcy for ZOS. It doesn't matter whether anyone hate it or not at this point, animation canceling is here to stay.

redspecter23 · September 2019

Negative progression is not a good thing for many players. A nerf may be seen as good for balance but many just see it as a set back in terms of months or even years of progress. Why chase that 1% or 2% increase when you just lost 30%. It's absolutely demoralizing.

SeaUnicorn · September 2019

They can dial down la damage to mitigate the impact of it