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This Should Be Stopped Before It Starts (Update 24)

  • InvictusApollo
    InvictusApollo
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    Players: Single target DOTs are doing far too much damage in PvP.
    ZOS: We hear you. Lets increase AOE dots damage as well.
  • Insco851
    Insco851
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    Players: Single target DOTs are doing far too much damage in PvP.
    ZOS: We hear you. Lets increase AOE dots damage as well.

    Bringing the single target dmg down. And aoe dots you just walk out of.

    Unless this is aoe bgs fest. This makes no difference
  • iCaliban
    iCaliban
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    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.
  • Insco851
    Insco851
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    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    “Things like” - I’m a magicka main fwiw.
  • Akinos
    Akinos
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    Kosbert wrote: »
    It is a bad step into the wrong direction. It is a cleary step back to Zerg Gameplay.

    That's exactly what ZO$ wants. They won't stop making such changes until everybody and their mom is in a 24 man raid on the daily.
    PC NA | @AkinosPvP
    GM of Vanguärd
    1vX/Small Scaler, Raid Leader, Youtuber and sometimes Streamer.
    OG 2 handed sword heavy armor Magplar
    Magplar, MagDK, Magden, Magblade & Magnecro PvP/Build videos & more
    twitch.tv/akinospvp
  • Gaggin
    Gaggin
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    Vapirko wrote: »

    The did not say ground AoE dots, do you have more info on this not available in the combat update? Also there’s negative feedback every patch.

    AoE ground dots are what was nerfed last patch(wall, caltrops, etc). Single target dots were buffed. Regular aoes(power extraction, proxy, etc) were mostly untouched along with radial dots(perma, EoS, etc). The combat update is discussing increasing gound aoe dots back to what they were again at an increased cost, and nerfing single target dots.

    And yes all patches have some negative feedback, but some patches like this one(and Morrowind) had some very negative changes.
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Instead of constantly calling for adjustments; how about telling us where they should be?

    Like should AoE DoTs be 50% less damage than single target DoTs?
    Should the totality of a single DoT compare to the totality of a spammable in a single cast?

    I keep seeing people being unhappy; but I have no idea where happy would be.
    Gamer tag: ShenronNacht NA Xbox One
    1100+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er
    Shepherd of Rot - Stamina Necromancer BG Archer - No Gank
  • brandonv516
    brandonv516
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    If they lower the damage of ST DoTs by a little and then raise AoE DoTs to the same damage but at a much higher cost...most will probably L2P.
  • Rohamad_Ali
    Rohamad_Ali
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    To be reasonable , hardly any pvp players enjoy a AOE Meta based update . It's a no skill approach to raising damage , which needs to be substantial in order to avoid laggy tank battles where healing is also over compensating . We want some skill involved in winning ZoS .
  • NuarBlack
    NuarBlack
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    Instead of constantly calling for adjustments; how about telling us where they should be?

    Like should AoE DoTs be 50% less damage than single target DoTs?
    Should the totality of a single DoT compare to the totality of a spammable in a single cast?

    I keep seeing people being unhappy; but I have no idea where happy would be.

    The problem is out of context death recaps as it is standard practice in about every game ever for single target dots to do more damage per cast/use than spammed direct damage skills. But then be able to do more damage over the course of the dot by spamming the direct damage spammable which is where the game is at for the most part now and people just aren't used to it. If you break that balance it makes one or the other not worth using.

    ST dots could be toned down by 10% max, not no 40-60% like some are calling for. If dots don't offer significantly more bang for your buck per cast but spread out over time then they are not worth slotting. It's why the old entropy felt so second rate as a means of major sorcery as it felt like a waste of a global. You have to think in terms of the global CD not just tooltips and dps. What is going to be worth the global. Dots are finally worth the global but people just haven't adjusted to that fact.

    Probably better to leave dots alone for a minute and just add more means of dealing with them or the same thing will happen that happened roots where now roots are worthless and control builds non existent because they kept nerfing them instead of just providing tools of dealing with them sooner. But I doubt ZoS or the community will be up for that.
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    Instead of constantly calling for adjustments; how about telling us where they should be?

    Like should AoE DoTs be 50% less damage than single target DoTs?
    Should the totality of a single DoT compare to the totality of a spammable in a single cast?

    I keep seeing people being unhappy; but I have no idea where happy would be.

    As I said I think they’re fine as they are.
    Edited by Vapirko on September 11, 2019 1:09AM
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.
  • wheem_ESO
    wheem_ESO
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.
    Your numbers on Entropy-vs-Rending Slashes are off, going by all of the actual in-combat data I've seen since Scalebreaker released. There have been many cases where I've seen Rending Slashes do >= 150% the typical damage of Entropy (which, again, is usually somewhere around 900 - 1.1k/tick in no-CP BGs). Is that only due to certain sets and/or weapons? Perhaps, but that doesn't make it a non-issue, since there aren't any comparable things available to buff up Entropy in the same way.

    That "theme" is consistent across the board when it comes to DOTs, by the way: Stamina DOTs do more damage than their magicka counterparts (even when comparing Soul Trap against itself, since it's possible for Stam builds to get weapon damage numbers that are so much higher). The only exception to this rule is every-other-cast of a Magicka Warden's Fetcher Infection, which can indeed reach some really big damage numbers...50% of the time. 'Course, I see that DOT far less often than I do pretty much any of the rest, including class-specific things like Venomous Claw (which, again, I've seen reach ~150% of Entropy's damage).

    It's also worth noting that Poison Injection should be compared against Destructive Reach, rather than Entropy. Both come from weapon lines, and both are basically identical, except that Poison Injection has execute scaling and Destructive Reach doesn't. And Entropy needed some kind of buff, and has for a very long time: prior to Scalebreaker it was liquid garbage compared to Rally or Forward Momentum.
  • Drako_Ei
    Drako_Ei
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    Honestly, if they nerf pve DPS sustain, only to enforce EVEN MORE breton as meta i would just quit, Monster hunter's MMO is actually looking nice...
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.
    Your numbers on Entropy-vs-Rending Slashes are off, going by all of the actual in-combat data I've seen since Scalebreaker released. There have been many cases where I've seen Rending Slashes do >= 150% the typical damage of Entropy (which, again, is usually somewhere around 900 - 1.1k/tick in no-CP BGs). Is that only due to certain sets and/or weapons? Perhaps, but that doesn't make it a non-issue, since there aren't any comparable things available to buff up Entropy in the same way.

    That "theme" is consistent across the board when it comes to DOTs, by the way: Stamina DOTs do more damage than their magicka counterparts (even when comparing Soul Trap against itself, since it's possible for Stam builds to get weapon damage numbers that are so much higher). The only exception to this rule is every-other-cast of a Magicka Warden's Fetcher Infection, which can indeed reach some really big damage numbers...50% of the time. 'Course, I see that DOT far less often than I do pretty much any of the rest, including class-specific things like Venomous Claw (which, again, I've seen reach ~150% of Entropy's damage).

    It's also worth noting that Poison Injection should be compared against Destructive Reach, rather than Entropy. Both come from weapon lines, and both are basically identical, except that Poison Injection has execute scaling and Destructive Reach doesn't. And Entropy needed some kind of buff, and has for a very long time: prior to Scalebreaker it was liquid garbage compared to Rally or Forward Momentum.

    That’s a nice theory. I can post you a screen shot if you want. With about 4K wpn damage and 33k stam on my Stamplar rending is about 19-20k. On my mag DK with about 36k mag on my defensive SB bar with under 3k spell damage my Entropy is 24k. Can’t recall what it is on my offensive bar and never mind what it is once BSW procs. And besides it’s the fact that Entropy is a utility skill and offers way too much now. And I’m so *** tired of the stamina is stronger because weapon damage. It’s just such a dumb, idk anything argument. People way over estimate the amount of weapon damage that the average stamina build has and just ignore the fact that max magicka is always at least a few thousand higher than max stam if not in the rage of 5-8k higher. And I’m only talking about poison injection because it was brought up as over powered. But anyway this discussion isn’t about single target dots which are being nerfed anyway. But I’ll post some screenshot for you later for comparison between a typical mag and stam build.
  • Revokus
    Revokus
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.

    I swear if they nerf entropy magnecro will be back to even worst pvp mag spec than now. It's the only damn reliable thing in a build to damage someone. I guess it will get nerfed since you've been calling this for weeks and they usually listen to that.
    Edited by Revokus on September 12, 2019 3:29AM
    Playing since January 23, 2016
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    Revokus wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.

    I swear if they nerf entropy magnecro will be back to even worst pvp mag spec than now. It's the only damn reliable thing in a build to damage someone. I guess it will get nerfed since you've been calling this for weeks and they usually listen to that.

    I am sorry to hear that and again this is not a nerf entropy thread please see the OP. I do think it’s over performing but I’ve only ever posted one joke thread about it. I hear you on the mag necro thing but the class shouldn’t be hinging on one non class skill. Also to say that one skill isn’t enough to save that class rn anyway.
  • wheem_ESO
    wheem_ESO
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.
    Your numbers on Entropy-vs-Rending Slashes are off, going by all of the actual in-combat data I've seen since Scalebreaker released. There have been many cases where I've seen Rending Slashes do >= 150% the typical damage of Entropy (which, again, is usually somewhere around 900 - 1.1k/tick in no-CP BGs). Is that only due to certain sets and/or weapons? Perhaps, but that doesn't make it a non-issue, since there aren't any comparable things available to buff up Entropy in the same way.

    That "theme" is consistent across the board when it comes to DOTs, by the way: Stamina DOTs do more damage than their magicka counterparts (even when comparing Soul Trap against itself, since it's possible for Stam builds to get weapon damage numbers that are so much higher). The only exception to this rule is every-other-cast of a Magicka Warden's Fetcher Infection, which can indeed reach some really big damage numbers...50% of the time. 'Course, I see that DOT far less often than I do pretty much any of the rest, including class-specific things like Venomous Claw (which, again, I've seen reach ~150% of Entropy's damage).

    It's also worth noting that Poison Injection should be compared against Destructive Reach, rather than Entropy. Both come from weapon lines, and both are basically identical, except that Poison Injection has execute scaling and Destructive Reach doesn't. And Entropy needed some kind of buff, and has for a very long time: prior to Scalebreaker it was liquid garbage compared to Rally or Forward Momentum.

    That’s a nice theory. I can post you a screen shot if you want. With about 4K wpn damage and 33k stam on my Stamplar rending is about 19-20k. On my mag DK with about 36k mag on my defensive SB bar with under 3k spell damage my Entropy is 24k. Can’t recall what it is on my offensive bar and never mind what it is once BSW procs. And besides it’s the fact that Entropy is a utility skill and offers way too much now. And I’m so *** tired of the stamina is stronger because weapon damage. It’s just such a dumb, idk anything argument. People way over estimate the amount of weapon damage that the average stamina build has and just ignore the fact that max magicka is always at least a few thousand higher than max stam if not in the rage of 5-8k higher. And I’m only talking about poison injection because it was brought up as over powered. But anyway this discussion isn’t about single target dots which are being nerfed anyway. But I’ll post some screenshot for you later for comparison between a typical mag and stam build.
    And I can post screenshots of actual damage done by various DOTs, if you'd like. Tooltips are all fine and dandy, as long as we control for CP allocation and whatnot, but actual in-game results matter infinitely more. I have yet to see a death recap where generic Magicka DOTs did very much over 1k/tick, whereas I've seen Stamina bleeds for literally more than double that sometimes (9,092 over 4 ticks, for one example).

    It's annoying to go through and black out names on screenshots, but if you think I'm lying I can do so.
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    I hope they meant ground based aoes and not target based aoe dots.

    That would be more understandable, although that’s fairly specific and easily said and they didn’t make that distinction. Still though it’s not like any of them really need a buff/cost increase. I’m just curious what their angle is.

    They do if you´re looking at pvp vs pve balancing.

    Previously the games pve dmg inflation was somewhat mitigated in pvp by core pve skills being grounddots that are easily outmaneuvered/mitigated in pvp.
    This got removed with scalebreaker to the effects we currently see in pvp.

    I hope/think zos made the same observation is merely planning to go back to the old state of singletarget dots and ground aoes.
    There aren´t even that many targetted aoe dots are there?
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Insco851
    Insco851
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    Revokus wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.

    I swear if they nerf entropy magnecro will be back to even worst pvp mag spec than now. It's the only damn reliable thing in a build to damage someone. I guess it will get nerfed since you've been calling this for weeks and they usually listen to that.

    This just seems like a weird thing to argue considering it’s generic. “If we lose entropy, we got nothing!” - argue for the actual class skills to be viable. Both the stupid tethers should be completely reworked for instance.
  • Kadoin
    Kadoin
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    Players: Single target DOTs are doing far too much damage in PvP.
    ZOS: We hear you. Lets increase AOE dots damage as well.

    Strange, I don't think so and instead find single target direct damage to be doing too much damage. Gee, what a difference in perspective. I wonder what could be the cause?
  • Insco851
    Insco851
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    Kadoin wrote: »
    Players: Single target DOTs are doing far too much damage in PvP.
    ZOS: We hear you. Lets increase AOE dots damage as well.

    Strange, I don't think so and instead find single target direct damage to be doing too much damage. Gee, what a difference in perspective. I wonder what could be the cause?

    In reality it’s a bit of both. Especially true for Certain classes that were already strong enough in burst potential- but ended up getting passive dots that increased their dmg even further.
  • thankyourat
    thankyourat
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.

    It’s definitely a thing and shouldn’t be ignored. The skills are comparable and both do too much damage. if you add in the fact that rending does upfront damage and has one less tic the total damage of the two abilities are basically the same. that’s without factoring axe bleeds or master weapons. In which case the damage of rending would be noticeably higher. What it comes down to is entropy has damage, major sorcery, and a heal where as rending offers damage and a snare or heal depending on the morph you use. So entropy offers one more buff but at the same time it doesn’t offer the damage potential of rending.

    Entropy does however have the ability to be stacked with more dots because magicka has a lot more viable dot options than stam even though the strongest abuser of dots currently are dual Wield stam DKs, most other stam classes don’t have strong class base dots. So a nerf to rending would more negatively effect stamina than a nerf to entropy for magicka because rending is the only dot available to most stam classes. I don’t think range vs melee matters much in open world pvp. Overall though the skills are pretty comparable seeing as you are going to get a lot more damage out of rending than you are with entropy.
  • Insco851
    Insco851
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vapirko wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.

    It’s definitely a thing and shouldn’t be ignored. The skills are comparable and both do too much damage. if you add in the fact that rending does upfront damage and has one less tic the total damage of the two abilities are basically the same. that’s without factoring axe bleeds or master weapons. In which case the damage of rending would be noticeably higher. What it comes down to is entropy has damage, major sorcery, and a heal where as rending offers damage and a snare or heal depending on the morph you use. So entropy offers one more buff but at the same time it doesn’t offer the damage potential of rending.

    Entropy does however have the ability to be stacked with more dots because magicka has a lot more viable dot options than stam even though the strongest abuser of dots currently are dual Wield stam DKs, most other stam classes don’t have strong class base dots. So a nerf to rending would more negatively effect stamina than a nerf to entropy for magicka because rending is the only dot available to most stam classes. I don’t think range vs melee matters much in open world pvp. Overall though the skills are pretty comparable seeing as you are going to get a lot more damage out of rending than you are with entropy.

    Lots of people are going to come throw poison inject in your face about this post.

    But not many viable PvP builds are running DW/Bow to stack these. Most stam classes are tied to 2H for either the burst heal or the CC immunity/Major brutality.
    Edited by Insco851 on September 12, 2019 2:24PM
  • Gaggin
    Gaggin
    ✭✭✭
    Rending is melee while entropy is ranged, that is an important distinction. Tbh befote this patch the overall dot dmg was fine, only a few skills needed tweaking, not the stupid high tooltips these single target dots have.
  • NuarBlack
    NuarBlack
    ✭✭✭
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Revokus wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.

    I swear if they nerf entropy magnecro will be back to even worst pvp mag spec than now. It's the only damn reliable thing in a build to damage someone. I guess it will get nerfed since you've been calling this for weeks and they usually listen to that.

    This just seems like a weird thing to argue considering it’s generic. “If we lose entropy, we got nothing!” - argue for the actual class skills to be viable. Both the stupid tethers should be completely reworked for instance.

    Well considering it is the only source(outside of pots) of a key buff available it does become a defacto magcro skill. Asking magcros to not care about entropy is like asking stamsorcs to not care about dizzy. It's a key part of the class, for better or worse it is the balance method ZoS has gone with to keep weapon skills and guild skills relevant.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    NuarBlack wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Revokus wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Insco851 wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.

    You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.

    People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.

    I swear if they nerf entropy magnecro will be back to even worst pvp mag spec than now. It's the only damn reliable thing in a build to damage someone. I guess it will get nerfed since you've been calling this for weeks and they usually listen to that.

    This just seems like a weird thing to argue considering it’s generic. “If we lose entropy, we got nothing!” - argue for the actual class skills to be viable. Both the stupid tethers should be completely reworked for instance.

    Well considering it is the only source(outside of pots) of a key buff available it does become a defacto magcro skill. Asking magcros to not care about entropy is like asking stamsorcs to not care about dizzy. It's a key part of the class, for better or worse it is the balance method ZoS has gone with to keep weapon skills and guild skills relevant.

    All classes rely on certain abilities to get something vital which isn't accessible through the class itself. However that's not a reason for those abilities to be overloaded af and currently entropy falls into that category.
  • Baphomet
    Baphomet
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, @ZOS_BrianWheeler is absolutely right!

    AoEs in PvP is absolutely rubbish right now. Most of them are stationary and can be avoided relatively easy.

    Stationary, but only stationary, AoEs should deal much more damage than they do now, but it sounds fair that it comes at a high resource cost.

    If I manage to grab you with my talons or if you walk into my graveyard or step on my deadric mines, it should hurt.

    What we don't need a is a buff to mobile AoEs like jabs, sap essence, inhale, whirlwind etc.

    I for one am looking forward to this.

    - The Psijic Order
    - TKO
    - Dominant Dominion
    - The Noore
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Baphomet wrote: »
    No, @ZOS_BrianWheeler is absolutely right!

    AoEs in PvP is absolutely rubbish right now. Most of them are stationary and can be avoided relatively easy.

    Stationary, but only stationary, AoEs should deal much more damage than they do now, but it sounds fair that it comes at a high resource cost.

    If I manage to grab you with my talons or if you walk into my graveyard or step on my deadric mines, it should hurt.

    What we don't need a is a buff to mobile AoEs like jabs, sap essence, inhale, whirlwind etc.

    I for one am looking forward to this.

    We’re gonna have to disagree on this one. Mines, talons are CC skills and on top of that can CC multiple people. We already had the hold block and AoE damage meta we don’t need another.
  • Gprime31
    Gprime31
    ✭✭✭✭
    Game is dying, devs are *** and don’t listen, just play WOW classic..... at least blizzard deserves my money.
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