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Update 24 and the Dragonhold DLC Game Pack are both now available for testing on the PTS! Experience the amazing conclusion to the Season of the Dragon saga. You can find the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts

This Should Be Stopped Before It Starts (Update 24)

Vapirko
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From the combat preview for Update 24

We’ve also adjusted our standards of Area of Effect-based DoTs to once again do similar damage to single target counterparts, but with a much greater cost.

From a PvP perspective we just barely got out of the worst iteration of the AoE pain train meta. It was a bad meta, it was not fun and really only one play style was viable. Granted snares are lessened and counter play to snares is up, but I really have a hard time seeing how back tracking and bringing high levels of indiscriminate AoE damage up to single target levels makes sense. They say it's going to come at a much greater cost. Ok, well, that might affect very small scale groups who want to use this style of play but it won't do much or anything at all to the big groups and zergs which is where this style of play really becomes a problem. Not to mention encouraging this AoE stacking bogs down the server worse than anything else. Higher costs, unless they're so astronomical as to drain your entire mag or stam pool, are not going to hinder big groups that are having the most negative impact on gameplay and performance. Now, I realize that they also said they're going to rein in dot damage overall, and Im not entirely sure what that will look like/Im not here to create a panic, but with this particular point in the combat update I feel like it might be worth getting a discussion started early because it seems dangerously close to stepping straight back into a place that was arguably one of the least fun metas that PvP has ever seen. In my personal opinion, AoE dots are in a good spot and cost is not a good way to "balance them" (can you really balance something that doesn't need it?). This will likely have the effect of putting them out of reach for solo and small scale players and firmly within the grasp of large scale groups and zergs.

Again I realize it's a bit early but I also think this change could be insanely one sided in what type of gameplay it benefits.
Edited by Vapirko on September 10, 2019 4:51AM
  • Morgul667
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    Yeah

    That does not feel like a smart move ZOS
  • Kosbert
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    It is a bad step into the wrong direction. It is a cleary step back to Zerg Gameplay.
  • Solariken
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    Agreed, it's about to get silly (and laggy) all over again.
  • Fuzzy_Fish
    My opinion is back tracking in any game is a bad idea it was changed for a reason, you don't fix a current problem by trading it with a old one.
    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you're involved in, whether it's a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

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  • NBrookus
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    I'm not sure self-applied AOE skills are truly the driver of pain trains. It's not like Solar Barrage and Hurricane were big zerg group mainstays.

    Now that Rapids is much less the group get out of jail free skill spam that it was, large groups can't move at top speed with impunity while stacking Sleet and Destro Ult and root spam. Well, at least not as easily as they were.

    Whatever they do I doubt it will be a straight reversion... more like the Three Cup Shuffle.
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  • Vapirko
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    I'm not sure self-applied AOE skills are truly the driver of pain trains. It's not like Solar Barrage and Hurricane were big zerg group mainstays.

    Now that Rapids is much less the group get out of jail free skill spam that it was, large groups can't move at top speed with impunity while stacking Sleet and Destro Ult and root spam. Well, at least not as easily as they were.

    Whatever they do I doubt it will be a straight reversion... more like the Three Cup Shuffle.

    Agreed for the most part, but Im pretty sure that if they do this as it sounds people will find a way to bring back that meta. Also, we dont know how far theyre going with this, but for example Stamsorcs dont want to see hurricane cost greatly increased. Im pretty sure thats not a good idea and with the way they've been changing all skills to be the same that seems likely. Who wants to have to pop hurricane at like 1.5-2x the cost when ur already low on stam kiting a few players.
    Edited by Vapirko on September 10, 2019 8:35AM
  • Vapirko
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    I am not sure at which point skills like elemental blockade, liquid lightning, spear shards, eruption or volley are bad for PvP...just walk out of it.

    Well it really depends on how they handle it and it’s more things like circular AoE dots. They’re already strong but to buff them will give people reasons to start making groups that stack them. I’m not gonna explain how PvP works in detail. But as far as I know skills like volley and liquid lightning of WoL don’t need buffs in PvE anyway where dps is probably way to high anyway. I just can’t see the point.
    Edited by Vapirko on September 10, 2019 10:59AM
  • crazywolfpusher
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    I am not sure at which point skills like elemental blockade, liquid lightning, spear shards, eruption or volley are bad for PvP...just walk out of it.

    I think they are useful in bg flag games
  • kylewwefan
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    They went a bit overboard with the AOE nerf hammer imo. Caltrops now does around 650 damage per second tool tips. Used to be near 2500 DPS. It could use a buff. I don’t recall this being a cheap skill to cast either. Currently it’s not even worth slotting.
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  • Vapirko
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    kylewwefan wrote: »
    They went a bit overboard with the AOE nerf hammer imo. Caltrops now does around 650 damage per second tool tips. Used to be near 2500 DPS. It could use a buff. I don’t recall this being a cheap skill to cast either. Currently it’s not even worth slotting.

    Sure Ive got no problem with a few buffs here and there, but to bring AoE dots up to par with single target dots? That makes no sense to me. Also dont forget that caltrops now applies major fracture which is a big damage boost in some instances like PvP but less in PvE where fracture is already being applied most likely.
    Edited by Vapirko on September 10, 2019 11:26AM
  • wheem_ESO
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    kylewwefan wrote: »
    They went a bit overboard with the AOE nerf hammer imo. Caltrops now does around 650 damage per second tool tips. Used to be near 2500 DPS. It could use a buff. I don’t recall this being a cheap skill to cast either. Currently it’s not even worth slotting.

    Sure Ive got no problem with a few buffs here and there, but to bring AoE dots up to par with single target dots? That makes no sense to me. Also dont forget that caltrops now applies major fracture which is a big damage boost in some instances like PvP but less in PvE where fracture is already being applied most likely.
    It's also an AOE 50% snare, which is better than Wall of Frost and doesn't require slotting a weapon that is otherwise pretty useless.
  • Royalthought
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    Hmm. It's 1 thing to have strong DoTs but right now there are so many available to be stacked, that many players feel it's too much.

    And now AoEs are going to do the same damage on top of that.

    Single target abilities should always so more than AoEs. Cost won't be enough to balance it.
    Edited by Royalthought on September 10, 2019 12:28PM
  • ChunkyCat
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    Shhh... don’t fight it.

    Just let it happen.
  • WuffyCerulei
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    The ground aoes literally weren’t a problem in Cyrodiil, BGs, or IC. You just walk out of em. Or, like, not stand in them. They’re changing it back-ish because they forced pve dps to be worse and homogenized. The whole nerfs happened because pvpers cried too loudly. Just hush, stand in the corner, and think about what yall have done.
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  • Insco851
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.

    I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.

    So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.
    Edited by Insco851 on September 10, 2019 1:22PM
  • mursie
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    Fuzzy_Fish wrote: »
    My opinion is back tracking in any game is a bad idea it was changed for a reason, you don't fix a current problem by trading it with a old one.

    see faction locks - expect backtracking
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  • katorga
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    So they said they are going to bring aoe dots up to single target levels, but they are nerfing single target. My guess is a 25-50% nerf to ST dots, so maybe a slight buff to AOE Dot to bring them to that level.

  • Vapirko
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    katorga wrote: »
    So they said they are going to bring aoe dots up to single target levels, but they are nerfing single target. My guess is a 25-50% nerf to ST dots, so maybe a slight buff to AOE Dot to bring them to that level.

    Yeah I get that but AoE dots don’t seem to be a problem now. Many seem fine as they are. For example crescent sweep is very good and doesn’t need a buff not a cost increase. It’s unique in its frequency and level of power. Caltrops which someone mentioned above doesn’t do a lot of damage but it does provide AoE major fracture and that makes sense since it is a PvP skill line. It should serve more utility than damage.
  • Derra
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    I hope they meant ground based aoes and not target based aoe dots.
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  • Vapirko
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    Derra wrote: »
    I hope they meant ground based aoes and not target based aoe dots.

    That would be more understandable, although that’s fairly specific and easily said and they didn’t make that distinction. Still though it’s not like any of them really need a buff/cost increase. I’m just curious what their angle is.
  • Major_Lag
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    Now that Rapids is much less the group get out of jail free skill spam that it was, large groups can't move at top speed with impunity while stacking Sleet and Destro Ult and root spam. Well, at least not as easily as they were.
    Wait, what?
    Mobilize your forces, granting Major and Minor Expedition to you and your group, increasing your Movement Speed by 30% and 10% respectively, for 8 seconds.

    It no longer cancels due to dealing or receiving damage, and it gives both Minor and Major Exp.
    So all that's needed is 1 "Rapids monkey" per 24-man raid. Unless there's a hidden cap on the # of groupmembers buffed?

    If that skill is not a huge mobility buff to large groups, then I don't know what is.
  • katorga
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    So they said they are going to bring aoe dots up to single target levels, but they are nerfing single target. My guess is a 25-50% nerf to ST dots, so maybe a slight buff to AOE Dot to bring them to that level.

    Yeah I get that but AoE dots don’t seem to be a problem now. Many seem fine as they are. For example crescent sweep is very good and doesn’t need a buff not a cost increase. It’s unique in its frequency and level of power. Caltrops which someone mentioned above doesn’t do a lot of damage but it does provide AoE major fracture and that makes sense since it is a PvP skill line. It should serve more utility than damage.

    Well, they ruined them for PVE. I think they mean dots like caltrops, wall of elements, shards, boneyard. And where do multi-target single target dots like Soul Splitting Trap and Reflective Light, or cone aoe dots like DK Fiery Breath fit into this? Their pronouncements are always hard to decipher.

    Either way, all dots are going to get ruined, because...ZOS.

  • HaruKamui
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    What is up with the constant back and forth of the balance these days? Does the new balance team actually have a direction/overall plan?

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  • Joy_Division
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    Organized guilds don't rely on AoE DoTs.

    It doesn't matter what ZOS does with DoTs as long as we crash evry 15 mintues and performance is so bad it's more frustrating than fun to play.
  • Gaggin
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    OP is completely off on this. They are talking about ground targeted dots, not aoes in general The only that really was prevelant in pvp that i can think of is wall, and i wouldnt call that broken. They didnt nerf the pvp aoes at all(perma, proxy, destro ult, etc).

    Do you really feel performance IMPROVED this patch? The opposite happened. THIS patch is the least fun, I believe the overwhelmingly negative feedback people have been giving confirms this.
  • Vapirko
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    Gaggin wrote: »
    OP is completely off on this. They are talking about ground targeted dots, not aoes in general The only that really was prevelant in pvp that i can think of is wall, and i wouldnt call that broken. They didnt nerf the pvp aoes at all(perma, proxy, destro ult, etc).

    Do you really feel performance IMPROVED this patch? The opposite happened. THIS patch is the least fun, I believe the overwhelmingly negative feedback people have been giving confirms this.

    The did not say ground AoE dots, do you have more info on this not available in the combat update? Also there’s negative feedback every patch.
  • NBrookus
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    Major_Lag wrote: »
    NBrookus wrote: »
    Now that Rapids is much less the group get out of jail free skill spam that it was, large groups can't move at top speed with impunity while stacking Sleet and Destro Ult and root spam. Well, at least not as easily as they were.
    Wait, what?
    Mobilize your forces, granting Major and Minor Expedition to you and your group, increasing your Movement Speed by 30% and 10% respectively, for 8 seconds.

    It no longer cancels due to dealing or receiving damage, and it gives both Minor and Major Exp.
    So all that's needed is 1 "Rapids monkey" per 24-man raid. Unless there's a hidden cap on the # of groupmembers buffed?

    If that skill is not a huge mobility buff to large groups, then I don't know what is.

    It used to remove snares and roots as well. So Rapids was also a kind of purge. Now you can have 8 seconds of Major Expedition, but you aren't guaranteed your whole group will be able to use it, they also have to have their own snare removal, break roots, etc. and/or extra purge to tackle those.

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  • Major_Lag
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    It used to remove snares and roots as well. So Rapids was also a kind of purge.
    Ahh, fair enough. That was well before I started playing.

    Still, Rapids is quite a powerful skill in its current form, especially compared to how it worked before Elsweyr.

    And purge in ballgroups is rarely an issue AFAIK, since any decent ballgroup already has a dedicated "purge monkey" or 2.
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