The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
This Should Be Stopped Before It Starts (Update 24)
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Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.
I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.
So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.
You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.
People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.
I swear if they nerf entropy magnecro will be back to even worst pvp mag spec than now. It's the only damn reliable thing in a build to damage someone. I guess it will get nerfed since you've been calling this for weeks and they usually listen to that.
This just seems like a weird thing to argue considering it’s generic. “If we lose entropy, we got nothing!” - argue for the actual class skills to be viable. Both the stupid tethers should be completely reworked for instance.
Well considering it is the only source(outside of pots) of a key buff available it does become a defacto magcro skill. Asking magcros to not care about entropy is like asking stamsorcs to not care about dizzy. It's a key part of the class, for better or worse it is the balance method ZoS has gone with to keep weapon skills and guild skills relevant.
My point of arguing to buff useless necro skills still stands. You are saying it’s because of a buff that entropy is needed... not the fat dot that it applies. You want them both tho.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I hope they meant ground based aoes and not target based aoe dots.
That would be more understandable, although that’s fairly specific and easily said and they didn’t make that distinction. Still though it’s not like any of them really need a buff/cost increase. I’m just curious what their angle is.
They do if you´re looking at pvp vs pve balancing.
Previously the games pve dmg inflation was somewhat mitigated in pvp by core pve skills being grounddots that are easily outmaneuvered/mitigated in pvp.
This got removed with scalebreaker to the effects we currently see in pvp.
I hope/think zos made the same observation is merely planning to go back to the old state of singletarget dots and ground aoes.
There aren´t even that many targetted aoe dots are there?
Jabs
Radial Sweep?
reflective?
Fiery breath
lotus fan
Tether?
Swarm?No, @ZOS_BrianWheeler is absolutely right!
AoEs in PvP is absolutely rubbish right now. Most of them are stationary and can be avoided relatively easy.
Stationary, but only stationary, AoEs should deal much more damage than they do now, but it sounds fair that it comes at a high resource cost.
If I manage to grab you with my talons or if you walk into my graveyard or step on my deadric mines, it should hurt.
What we don't need a is a buff to mobile AoEs like jabs, sap essence, inhale, whirlwind etc.
I for one am looking forward to this.
We’re gonna have to disagree on this one. Mines, talons are CC skills and on top of that can CC multiple people. We already had the hold block and AoE damage meta we don’t need another.
But the problem is not AoE, but AoE DoTs. Those skills being stationary are quite unappealing.
Blockade, Endless hail, Eruption, Liquid Lightning, Twisting Patch, Shards, etc...Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.
I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.
So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.
You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.
People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.
I swear if they nerf entropy magnecro will be back to even worst pvp mag spec than now. It's the only damn reliable thing in a build to damage someone. I guess it will get nerfed since you've been calling this for weeks and they usually listen to that.
This just seems like a weird thing to argue considering it’s generic. “If we lose entropy, we got nothing!” - argue for the actual class skills to be viable. Both the stupid tethers should be completely reworked for instance.
Well considering it is the only source(outside of pots) of a key buff available it does become a defacto magcro skill. Asking magcros to not care about entropy is like asking stamsorcs to not care about dizzy. It's a key part of the class, for better or worse it is the balance method ZoS has gone with to keep weapon skills and guild skills relevant.
My point of arguing to buff useless necro skills still stands. You are saying it’s because of a buff that entropy is needed... not the fat dot that it applies. You want them both tho.
My point was that regardless of what happens to magcro entropy will still concern them unless they are provided another source of major sorcery. So buff necro all you want it still won't justify nerfing entropy back into the ground.
And the "fat dot" isn't the problem at all. Sure maybe it could be tweeked by 5% and the heal and mag return removed but there is no dot apocalypse. Burst is still king. Dots are just finally worth slotting instead of being utility skills only. So people just aren't used to seeing them and dealing with them. No, if entropy and soul trap receive a nerf it should be a counter play nerf first as the damage numbers are actually pretty standard compared to other games. Make it a projectile you can dodge. Add more means of cleansing. Don't do the same thing they did with roots and snares to where they nerfed them into Oblivion before they realized adding immunity skills and root CD solved it.1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
So entropy is overloaded and Rally/Forward Momentum aren't? Would you trade away the burst heal and snare/root immunity for a DOT that does ~1k damage every 2 seconds? I somehow doubt that very many Stamina players would want to make that trade, even though it would give them an ability that is "overloaded af."I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.
I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.
So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.
You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.
People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.
I swear if they nerf entropy magnecro will be back to even worst pvp mag spec than now. It's the only damn reliable thing in a build to damage someone. I guess it will get nerfed since you've been calling this for weeks and they usually listen to that.
This just seems like a weird thing to argue considering it’s generic. “If we lose entropy, we got nothing!” - argue for the actual class skills to be viable. Both the stupid tethers should be completely reworked for instance.
Well considering it is the only source(outside of pots) of a key buff available it does become a defacto magcro skill. Asking magcros to not care about entropy is like asking stamsorcs to not care about dizzy. It's a key part of the class, for better or worse it is the balance method ZoS has gone with to keep weapon skills and guild skills relevant.
All classes rely on certain abilities to get something vital which isn't accessible through the class itself. However that's not a reason for those abilities to be overloaded af and currently entropy falls into that category.
Rally and Forward Momentum have been stellar abilities for a long time, and that's perfectly fine. But god forbid we get a couple weeks where Entropy isn't trash.3 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
So entropy is overloaded and Rally/Forward Momentum aren't? Would you trade away the burst heal and snare/root immunity for a DOT that does ~1k damage every 2 seconds? I somehow doubt that very many Stamina players would want to make that trade, even though it would give them an ability that is "overloaded af."I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.
I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.
So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.
You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.
People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.
I swear if they nerf entropy magnecro will be back to even worst pvp mag spec than now. It's the only damn reliable thing in a build to damage someone. I guess it will get nerfed since you've been calling this for weeks and they usually listen to that.
This just seems like a weird thing to argue considering it’s generic. “If we lose entropy, we got nothing!” - argue for the actual class skills to be viable. Both the stupid tethers should be completely reworked for instance.
Well considering it is the only source(outside of pots) of a key buff available it does become a defacto magcro skill. Asking magcros to not care about entropy is like asking stamsorcs to not care about dizzy. It's a key part of the class, for better or worse it is the balance method ZoS has gone with to keep weapon skills and guild skills relevant.
All classes rely on certain abilities to get something vital which isn't accessible through the class itself. However that's not a reason for those abilities to be overloaded af and currently entropy falls into that category.
Rally and Forward Momentum have been stellar abilities for a long time, and that's perfectly fine. But god forbid we get a couple weeks where Entropy isn't trash.
Hold on there sailor.
Entropy gives: major sorcery + very high dot damage + heal + 2% max mag + 2% mag recovery
Rally gives: major brutality + conditional burst heal that is not on demand + minor endurance (now this is not necessarily better than 2% recovery because its a minor buff which means it overlaps with say repentance which also gives it)
Forward Momentum gives: major brutality + snare immunity + minor endurance (again can easily overlap with another source).
So however you cut it Entropy gives more unique bonuses AND its not tied to a weapon skill line. Rally would come close if instead of minor fortitude it just gave you a flat percentage buff to either max stam or recovery.
I see your tricky wording trying to make it sound like you get both the burst heal and snare immunity from the same skill. One thing for sure, Id be happy to trade minor endurance for the entropy dot. But the way you're twisting the wording here is exactly the way people like to defend or ask for nerfs on these forums. Because when you lay it out it becomes quite clear which skill adds more overall benefits pound for pound.Edited by Vapirko on September 14, 2019 5:40AM1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The "very high dot damage" that you speak of generally averages out to ~1k damage every 2 seconds. The highest damage-per-tick on Entropy that I've ever seen on a death recap was exactly 6,600 damage over 5 ticks, which averages out to 1,320 damage every 2 seconds. 'Course, the exact same player, on the exact same screenshot, hit me with a Crystal Frag for 8,139 damage. But yea DOTs are totally the problemHold on there sailor.
Entropy gives: major sorcery + very high dot damage + heal + 2% max mag + 2% mag recovery
It's not just about the number of bonuses a skill adds - how useful said bonuses are matters a lot more. This is why, pre-Scalebreaker, you'd see Stamina Wardens running either Rally or Forward Momentum all the time, but literally 0 Magicka Wardens using Entropy. A terrible DOT, terrible HOT, +2% max magicka, and +2% magicka regen aren't worth the bar slot when you had a non-garbage option for Major Sorcery. But Rally and Forward Momentum's other bonuses were good enough to justify that skill, even if you didn't "have" to use it in order to gain an incredibly important buff. For that matter, there have been magicka builds that made use of Forward Momentum in the past...despite the opportunity costs involved, and total lack of benefit from Major Brutality.So however you cut it Entropy gives more unique bonuses AND its not tied to a weapon skill line. Rally would come close if instead of minor fortitude it just gave you a flat percentage buff to either max stam or recovery.
My wording wasn't tricky at all, I just assumed that those who are reading this thread on the PvP forums have enough basic knowledge to understand the differences between the two morphs.I see your tricky wording trying to make it sound like you get both the burst heal and snare immunity from the same skill. One thing for sure, Id be happy to trade minor endurance for the entropy dot. But the way you're twisting the wording here is exactly the way people like to defend or ask for nerfs on these forums. Because when you lay it out it becomes quite clear which skill adds more overall benefits pound for pound.
Lets be honest, Entropy, Rally, and Forward Momentum all have 2 main purposes, which stand head-and-shoulders above other bonuses. For Entropy, this is Major Sorcery and the DOT. For Rally, it's Major Brutality and the burst heal, and for Forward Momentum it's Major Brutality and the mobility.
If you want to remove the Minor Endurance portion of Rally/Forward Momentum, in exchange for a passive that provides +2% max stam and stam regen on your 2h bar, then there's an argument to be made there. But just picking and choosing one bonus to trade for another bonus, as though they were actually all equal, is a bit silly.
Just ask yourself the following two questions:
1) If Rally and Forward Momentum were nerfed and completely lost the Minor Endurance buff, with no "compensation" of any kind, how many players would ditch the skill?
2) If Entropy were nerfed and had the DOT portion completely removed, with no "compensation" given, how many players would ditch the skill?
The answer(s) should be pretty obvious...Stamina players would be annoyed if #1 happened, but they'd all keep running Rally or Forward Momentum just like they do right now, while Entropy would go back to the trash heap and only be used by those that don't have other options that are actually viable.7 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
The "very high dot damage" that you speak of generally averages out to ~1k damage every 2 seconds. The highest damage-per-tick on Entropy that I've ever seen on a death recap was exactly 6,600 damage over 5 ticks, which averages out to 1,320 damage every 2 seconds. 'Course, the exact same player, on the exact same screenshot, hit me with a Crystal Frag for 8,139 damage. But yea DOTs are totally the problemHold on there sailor.
Entropy gives: major sorcery + very high dot damage + heal + 2% max mag + 2% mag recovery
It's not just about the number of bonuses a skill adds - how useful said bonuses are matters a lot more. This is why, pre-Scalebreaker, you'd see Stamina Wardens running either Rally or Forward Momentum all the time, but literally 0 Magicka Wardens using Entropy. A terrible DOT, terrible HOT, +2% max magicka, and +2% magicka regen aren't worth the bar slot when you had a non-garbage option for Major Sorcery. But Rally and Forward Momentum's other bonuses were good enough to justify that skill, even if you didn't "have" to use it in order to gain an incredibly important buff. For that matter, there have been magicka builds that made use of Forward Momentum in the past...despite the opportunity costs involved, and total lack of benefit from Major Brutality.So however you cut it Entropy gives more unique bonuses AND its not tied to a weapon skill line. Rally would come close if instead of minor fortitude it just gave you a flat percentage buff to either max stam or recovery.
My wording wasn't tricky at all, I just assumed that those who are reading this thread on the PvP forums have enough basic knowledge to understand the differences between the two morphs.I see your tricky wording trying to make it sound like you get both the burst heal and snare immunity from the same skill. One thing for sure, Id be happy to trade minor endurance for the entropy dot. But the way you're twisting the wording here is exactly the way people like to defend or ask for nerfs on these forums. Because when you lay it out it becomes quite clear which skill adds more overall benefits pound for pound.
Lets be honest, Entropy, Rally, and Forward Momentum all have 2 main purposes, which stand head-and-shoulders above other bonuses. For Entropy, this is Major Sorcery and the DOT. For Rally, it's Major Brutality and the burst heal, and for Forward Momentum it's Major Brutality and the mobility.
If you want to remove the Minor Endurance portion of Rally/Forward Momentum, in exchange for a passive that provides +2% max stam and stam regen on your 2h bar, then there's an argument to be made there. But just picking and choosing one bonus to trade for another bonus, as though they were actually all equal, is a bit silly.
Just ask yourself the following two questions:
1) If Rally and Forward Momentum were nerfed and completely lost the Minor Endurance buff, with no "compensation" of any kind, how many players would ditch the skill?
2) If Entropy were nerfed and had the DOT portion completely removed, with no "compensation" given, how many players would ditch the skill?
The answer(s) should be pretty obvious...Stamina players would be annoyed if #1 happened, but they'd all keep running Rally or Forward Momentum just like they do right now, while Entropy would go back to the trash heap and only be used by those that don't have other options that are actually viable.
Not sure what game you’re playing but Entropy was good before it got the huge dot damage.1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No, it wasn't. The DOT was terrible, the HOT was terrible, and the duration on Major Sorcery was only 20 seconds (vs 33 for Rally/Forward Momentum).
The "very high dot damage" that you speak of generally averages out to ~1k damage every 2 seconds. The highest damage-per-tick on Entropy that I've ever seen on a death recap was exactly 6,600 damage over 5 ticks, which averages out to 1,320 damage every 2 seconds. 'Course, the exact same player, on the exact same screenshot, hit me with a Crystal Frag for 8,139 damage. But yea DOTs are totally the problemHold on there sailor.
Entropy gives: major sorcery + very high dot damage + heal + 2% max mag + 2% mag recovery
It's not just about the number of bonuses a skill adds - how useful said bonuses are matters a lot more. This is why, pre-Scalebreaker, you'd see Stamina Wardens running either Rally or Forward Momentum all the time, but literally 0 Magicka Wardens using Entropy. A terrible DOT, terrible HOT, +2% max magicka, and +2% magicka regen aren't worth the bar slot when you had a non-garbage option for Major Sorcery. But Rally and Forward Momentum's other bonuses were good enough to justify that skill, even if you didn't "have" to use it in order to gain an incredibly important buff. For that matter, there have been magicka builds that made use of Forward Momentum in the past...despite the opportunity costs involved, and total lack of benefit from Major Brutality.So however you cut it Entropy gives more unique bonuses AND its not tied to a weapon skill line. Rally would come close if instead of minor fortitude it just gave you a flat percentage buff to either max stam or recovery.
My wording wasn't tricky at all, I just assumed that those who are reading this thread on the PvP forums have enough basic knowledge to understand the differences between the two morphs.I see your tricky wording trying to make it sound like you get both the burst heal and snare immunity from the same skill. One thing for sure, Id be happy to trade minor endurance for the entropy dot. But the way you're twisting the wording here is exactly the way people like to defend or ask for nerfs on these forums. Because when you lay it out it becomes quite clear which skill adds more overall benefits pound for pound.
Lets be honest, Entropy, Rally, and Forward Momentum all have 2 main purposes, which stand head-and-shoulders above other bonuses. For Entropy, this is Major Sorcery and the DOT. For Rally, it's Major Brutality and the burst heal, and for Forward Momentum it's Major Brutality and the mobility.
If you want to remove the Minor Endurance portion of Rally/Forward Momentum, in exchange for a passive that provides +2% max stam and stam regen on your 2h bar, then there's an argument to be made there. But just picking and choosing one bonus to trade for another bonus, as though they were actually all equal, is a bit silly.
Just ask yourself the following two questions:
1) If Rally and Forward Momentum were nerfed and completely lost the Minor Endurance buff, with no "compensation" of any kind, how many players would ditch the skill?
2) If Entropy were nerfed and had the DOT portion completely removed, with no "compensation" given, how many players would ditch the skill?
The answer(s) should be pretty obvious...Stamina players would be annoyed if #1 happened, but they'd all keep running Rally or Forward Momentum just like they do right now, while Entropy would go back to the trash heap and only be used by those that don't have other options that are actually viable.
Not sure what game you’re playing but Entropy was good before it got the huge dot damage.
There were 2 reasons that Entropy was somewhat widespread in PvP before Scalebreaker: 1) Some classes literally didn't have any other option for Major Sorcery, unless they wanted to burn up a ton of potions + deal with the opportunity costs that involved, and 2) It was cheap, and some class-based sources of Major Sorcery were very expensive and provided dubious secondary benefits (ie, Molten Armaments' cost is very high, and many Mag DK builds don't do enough heavy attacking to justify its morph bonus).
Revert Entropy to what it was pre-Scalebreaker, then tack 33 seconds of Major Sorcery onto Race Against Time and see how many people actually use that "good" version of Entropy.9 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
No, it wasn't. The DOT was terrible, the HOT was terrible, and the duration on Major Sorcery was only 20 seconds (vs 33 for Rally/Forward Momentum).
The "very high dot damage" that you speak of generally averages out to ~1k damage every 2 seconds. The highest damage-per-tick on Entropy that I've ever seen on a death recap was exactly 6,600 damage over 5 ticks, which averages out to 1,320 damage every 2 seconds. 'Course, the exact same player, on the exact same screenshot, hit me with a Crystal Frag for 8,139 damage. But yea DOTs are totally the problemHold on there sailor.
Entropy gives: major sorcery + very high dot damage + heal + 2% max mag + 2% mag recovery
It's not just about the number of bonuses a skill adds - how useful said bonuses are matters a lot more. This is why, pre-Scalebreaker, you'd see Stamina Wardens running either Rally or Forward Momentum all the time, but literally 0 Magicka Wardens using Entropy. A terrible DOT, terrible HOT, +2% max magicka, and +2% magicka regen aren't worth the bar slot when you had a non-garbage option for Major Sorcery. But Rally and Forward Momentum's other bonuses were good enough to justify that skill, even if you didn't "have" to use it in order to gain an incredibly important buff. For that matter, there have been magicka builds that made use of Forward Momentum in the past...despite the opportunity costs involved, and total lack of benefit from Major Brutality.So however you cut it Entropy gives more unique bonuses AND its not tied to a weapon skill line. Rally would come close if instead of minor fortitude it just gave you a flat percentage buff to either max stam or recovery.
My wording wasn't tricky at all, I just assumed that those who are reading this thread on the PvP forums have enough basic knowledge to understand the differences between the two morphs.I see your tricky wording trying to make it sound like you get both the burst heal and snare immunity from the same skill. One thing for sure, Id be happy to trade minor endurance for the entropy dot. But the way you're twisting the wording here is exactly the way people like to defend or ask for nerfs on these forums. Because when you lay it out it becomes quite clear which skill adds more overall benefits pound for pound.
Lets be honest, Entropy, Rally, and Forward Momentum all have 2 main purposes, which stand head-and-shoulders above other bonuses. For Entropy, this is Major Sorcery and the DOT. For Rally, it's Major Brutality and the burst heal, and for Forward Momentum it's Major Brutality and the mobility.
If you want to remove the Minor Endurance portion of Rally/Forward Momentum, in exchange for a passive that provides +2% max stam and stam regen on your 2h bar, then there's an argument to be made there. But just picking and choosing one bonus to trade for another bonus, as though they were actually all equal, is a bit silly.
Just ask yourself the following two questions:
1) If Rally and Forward Momentum were nerfed and completely lost the Minor Endurance buff, with no "compensation" of any kind, how many players would ditch the skill?
2) If Entropy were nerfed and had the DOT portion completely removed, with no "compensation" given, how many players would ditch the skill?
The answer(s) should be pretty obvious...Stamina players would be annoyed if #1 happened, but they'd all keep running Rally or Forward Momentum just like they do right now, while Entropy would go back to the trash heap and only be used by those that don't have other options that are actually viable.
Not sure what game you’re playing but Entropy was good before it got the huge dot damage.
There were 2 reasons that Entropy was somewhat widespread in PvP before Scalebreaker: 1) Some classes literally didn't have any other option for Major Sorcery, unless they wanted to burn up a ton of potions + deal with the opportunity costs that involved, and 2) It was cheap, and some class-based sources of Major Sorcery were very expensive and provided dubious secondary benefits (ie, Molten Armaments' cost is very high, and many Mag DK builds don't do enough heavy attacking to justify its morph bonus).
Revert Entropy to what it was pre-Scalebreaker, then tack 33 seconds of Major Sorcery onto Race Against Time and see how many people actually use that "good" version of Entropy.
Lmao now you want a skill that does snare removal, Major expedition and minor force and major sorcery for 33 seconds lol. Well obviously people would use that but that’s *** up OP.0 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I was being flippant and making a comparison to Forward Momentum. But fine, I'll get super specific, just for you. Note that just like in my last post, the following suggestion's purpose is simply to make a comparison to a particular Stamina ability, and not an actual request for ZOS to make the listed changes:
No, it wasn't. The DOT was terrible, the HOT was terrible, and the duration on Major Sorcery was only 20 seconds (vs 33 for Rally/Forward Momentum).
The "very high dot damage" that you speak of generally averages out to ~1k damage every 2 seconds. The highest damage-per-tick on Entropy that I've ever seen on a death recap was exactly 6,600 damage over 5 ticks, which averages out to 1,320 damage every 2 seconds. 'Course, the exact same player, on the exact same screenshot, hit me with a Crystal Frag for 8,139 damage. But yea DOTs are totally the problemHold on there sailor.
Entropy gives: major sorcery + very high dot damage + heal + 2% max mag + 2% mag recovery
It's not just about the number of bonuses a skill adds - how useful said bonuses are matters a lot more. This is why, pre-Scalebreaker, you'd see Stamina Wardens running either Rally or Forward Momentum all the time, but literally 0 Magicka Wardens using Entropy. A terrible DOT, terrible HOT, +2% max magicka, and +2% magicka regen aren't worth the bar slot when you had a non-garbage option for Major Sorcery. But Rally and Forward Momentum's other bonuses were good enough to justify that skill, even if you didn't "have" to use it in order to gain an incredibly important buff. For that matter, there have been magicka builds that made use of Forward Momentum in the past...despite the opportunity costs involved, and total lack of benefit from Major Brutality.So however you cut it Entropy gives more unique bonuses AND its not tied to a weapon skill line. Rally would come close if instead of minor fortitude it just gave you a flat percentage buff to either max stam or recovery.
My wording wasn't tricky at all, I just assumed that those who are reading this thread on the PvP forums have enough basic knowledge to understand the differences between the two morphs.I see your tricky wording trying to make it sound like you get both the burst heal and snare immunity from the same skill. One thing for sure, Id be happy to trade minor endurance for the entropy dot. But the way you're twisting the wording here is exactly the way people like to defend or ask for nerfs on these forums. Because when you lay it out it becomes quite clear which skill adds more overall benefits pound for pound.
Lets be honest, Entropy, Rally, and Forward Momentum all have 2 main purposes, which stand head-and-shoulders above other bonuses. For Entropy, this is Major Sorcery and the DOT. For Rally, it's Major Brutality and the burst heal, and for Forward Momentum it's Major Brutality and the mobility.
If you want to remove the Minor Endurance portion of Rally/Forward Momentum, in exchange for a passive that provides +2% max stam and stam regen on your 2h bar, then there's an argument to be made there. But just picking and choosing one bonus to trade for another bonus, as though they were actually all equal, is a bit silly.
Just ask yourself the following two questions:
1) If Rally and Forward Momentum were nerfed and completely lost the Minor Endurance buff, with no "compensation" of any kind, how many players would ditch the skill?
2) If Entropy were nerfed and had the DOT portion completely removed, with no "compensation" given, how many players would ditch the skill?
The answer(s) should be pretty obvious...Stamina players would be annoyed if #1 happened, but they'd all keep running Rally or Forward Momentum just like they do right now, while Entropy would go back to the trash heap and only be used by those that don't have other options that are actually viable.
Not sure what game you’re playing but Entropy was good before it got the huge dot damage.
There were 2 reasons that Entropy was somewhat widespread in PvP before Scalebreaker: 1) Some classes literally didn't have any other option for Major Sorcery, unless they wanted to burn up a ton of potions + deal with the opportunity costs that involved, and 2) It was cheap, and some class-based sources of Major Sorcery were very expensive and provided dubious secondary benefits (ie, Molten Armaments' cost is very high, and many Mag DK builds don't do enough heavy attacking to justify its morph bonus).
Revert Entropy to what it was pre-Scalebreaker, then tack 33 seconds of Major Sorcery onto Race Against Time and see how many people actually use that "good" version of Entropy.
Lmao now you want a skill that does snare removal, Major expedition and minor force and major sorcery for 33 seconds lol. Well obviously people would use that but that’s *** up OP.
1) Revert Entropy to what it was pre-Scalebreaker.
2) Remove Major Expedition and Minor Force from Race Against Time.
3) Increase the duration of snare/root immunity on Race Against Time by 100%, so that it matches up with Forward Momentum.
4) Add Major Sorcery and Minor Intellect to Race Against Time, with a duration that matches up exactly with that provided by Forward Momentum. (Used to be 33 seconds, was adjusted downwards with Scalebreaker).
5) Change the cost of Race Against Time so that it's 115% the cost of Forward Momentum, as is standard for Mag-vs-Stam abilities.
6) Watch as virtually no one ever slots Entropy in PvP. If they do, it's either because they don't have Summerset or ESO+, or they don't know what they're doing.
Do you get my point now? Entropy was a terrible ability prior to Scalebreaker, and that's not just my personal opinion. I've already explained why people used it before, and it's not because it was "good" - it's because they didn't have other, viable alternatives.
You should also quit overstating the impact of a DOT that does ~1k damage every 2 seconds, unless you want to simultaneously go apoplectic over Rending Slashes doing >= 150% more damage.10 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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So entropy is overloaded and Rally/Forward Momentum aren't? Would you trade away the burst heal and snare/root immunity for a DOT that does ~1k damage every 2 seconds? I somehow doubt that very many Stamina players would want to make that trade, even though it would give them an ability that is "overloaded af."I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.
I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.
So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.
You are missing rending slashes, poison injection in your analysis of overpowered dots. Im sure that was coincidental.
People keep trying to make this a thing. Firstly entropy can’t ever be put in the same category because it’s a utility skill. It offers major sorcery and 2% max mag and mag recovery along with a heal and btw rending slashes might get a 19-20k tooltip while entropy, on top of all the other stuff it does, easily hits 26-30k. Poison injection only ever gets to entropy levels maybe in execute range and that’s all it does. It’s a single target dot only. Put a heal and major brutality on it and maybe you’ll be looking at a comparison. And of course while you could compare rending and soul trap, one is ranged and the other needs to be applied in melee range.
I swear if they nerf entropy magnecro will be back to even worst pvp mag spec than now. It's the only damn reliable thing in a build to damage someone. I guess it will get nerfed since you've been calling this for weeks and they usually listen to that.
This just seems like a weird thing to argue considering it’s generic. “If we lose entropy, we got nothing!” - argue for the actual class skills to be viable. Both the stupid tethers should be completely reworked for instance.
Well considering it is the only source(outside of pots) of a key buff available it does become a defacto magcro skill. Asking magcros to not care about entropy is like asking stamsorcs to not care about dizzy. It's a key part of the class, for better or worse it is the balance method ZoS has gone with to keep weapon skills and guild skills relevant.
All classes rely on certain abilities to get something vital which isn't accessible through the class itself. However that's not a reason for those abilities to be overloaded af and currently entropy falls into that category.
Rally and Forward Momentum have been stellar abilities for a long time, and that's perfectly fine. But god forbid we get a couple weeks where Entropy isn't trash.
Comparing them and saying would you trade one over the other is dumb because they are completely different in what they do. If I wanted a heal id pick rally and if I wanted dmg I'd pick entropy. Lol.
Entropy is overloaded because it's simply doing too much. It's a utility skill that deals the same dmg as dmg skills. That's dumb and bad design. I'm not saying it didn't need a buff, it did but not this buff.
If ur entropy deals 1k every 2 seconds ur build Is problematic.0 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Entropy isn't the only skill that has both damage and utility attached to it. Dizzying Swing, Cripple, Reflective Light, Bombard, etc...all have utility + damage attached (and in Dizzying Swing's case, it'll do as much, if not more damage in 1 second than Entropy will do in 12).Comparing them and saying would you trade one over the other is dumb because they are completely different in what they do. If I wanted a heal id pick rally and if I wanted dmg I'd pick entropy. Lol.
Entropy is overloaded because it's simply doing too much. It's a utility skill that deals the same dmg as dmg skills. That's dumb and bad design. I'm not saying it didn't need a buff, it did but not this buff.
If ur entropy deals 1k every 2 seconds ur build Is problematic.
If you want to make the argument that Major Sorcery/Brutality should only be attached to skills that do 0 damage, for whatever reason, then that's fine. But you should at least make a tiny amount of effort to suggest what extra bonuses the skill should have that would keep it on the same level as Rally and Forward Momentum (and obviously, it would be usable without a target, in that case).
It's also not "my" Entropy that averages out to around 1k damage every 2 seconds, it's everyone's Entropy in no-CP. To use a previously mentioned screenshot as an example...I was getting zerged down 4v1 in a Battleground, and my death recap shows the following:
MagSorc1 - x5 Degeneration for 6,600 (this is an exception to the rule, probably due to a lot of crits)
MagSorc2 - x6 Degeneration for 6,674
MagNecro - x5 Degeneration for 5,180
MagSorc1 - x1 Crystal Fragments for 8,139
MagSorc1 - x1 Endless Fury for 3,775
I survived their DOTs (and the poor AI of the Blastbones) for a while via LOS, counter-CC, and self healing. That 8,139 Crystal Frag, plus curse(s) that didn't get listed because their total damage was lower than the DOTs, is what did me in. Had that team been two Stam Sorcs and a Stam Necro instead, all 1-button spamming Dizzying Swing with 0 DOTs, I'd have died a whole heck of a lot faster.2 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭it won't do much or anything at all to the big groups and zergs which is where this style of play really becomes a problem. Not to mention encouraging this AoE stacking bogs down the server worse than anything else. Higher costs, unless they're so astronomical as to drain your entire mag or stam pool, are not going to hinder big groups that are having the most negative impact on gameplay and performance.
Spot on.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Wayshuba✭✭✭✭✭Let's be honest here. This game is now five years in. While balance adjustments should still happen in relation to player discovered meta, wild swings for the fences overhauling the entirety of character skill based class play should not - at this point.
Because of these shoot for the wall patches ZoS keeps doing, the game is perpetually out of balance. While they say they did a skill "audit", the fact that they over compensated dots last patch, when the community gave them feedback that this was going to be the case, yet they went ahead with it anyway. Now they are saying they overcompensated dots.
This isn't a big PvP vs PvE issue here either. Most PvE does not require the same counters that PvE does. Simply pick a baseline we are shooting here for (Singe target dots at 75% of burst hits; AoE target dots at 50% of Single target Dots; skills with extra utility - such as a 3 second stun - at 75% of damage without extras; skills with slot boosters at 50% of standard damage for skill because of the perpetual boost, etc.). After that, for PvP, give specific boosts and counters.
PvE is mainly a damage output game. So boosts and damage are the important skills. PvP is more a counter match type play with one applying damage and another offsetting or eliminating damage. Balance the skills like this first, then make small adjustments.
The U23 update really put this game in a state of why even have classes at all. Or maybe, just maybe, we have enough skills in this game at this point and the only further ones that should be added should be with a new class only.
However, we have another Chapter coming next year so that means some new additions to the content. If the pattern holds, it will mean yet another skill line that will cause some kind of "balance adjustment" so that the skills are somewhat usable.0 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭Let's be honest here. This game is now five years in. While balance adjustments should still happen in relation to player discovered meta, wild swings for the fences overhauling the entirety of character skill based class play should not - at this point.
Because of these shoot for the wall patches ZoS keeps doing, the game is perpetually out of balance. While they say they did a skill "audit", the fact that they over compensated dots last patch, when the community gave them feedback that this was going to be the case, yet they went ahead with it anyway. Now they are saying they overcompensated dots.
This isn't a big PvP vs PvE issue here either. Most PvE does not require the same counters that PvE does. Simply pick a baseline we are shooting here for (Singe target dots at 75% of burst hits; AoE target dots at 50% of Single target Dots; skills with extra utility - such as a 3 second stun - at 75% of damage without extras; skills with slot boosters at 50% of standard damage for skill because of the perpetual boost, etc.). After that, for PvP, give specific boosts and counters.
PvE is mainly a damage output game. So boosts and damage are the important skills. PvP is more a counter match type play with one applying damage and another offsetting or eliminating damage. Balance the skills like this first, then make small adjustments.
The U23 update really put this game in a state of why even have classes at all. Or maybe, just maybe, we have enough skills in this game at this point and the only further ones that should be added should be with a new class only.
However, we have another Chapter coming next year so that means some new additions to the content. If the pattern holds, it will mean yet another skill line that will cause some kind of "balance adjustment" so that the skills are somewhat usable.
These are the most ignorant parameters I've ever seen. If dots only do 75% of burst spamables they will never be worth slotting as they would be a waste of a global and slot. If they do 75% of burst spamables a tick then they would be more powerful than they are on live right now. Might want to rethink them.0 -
Wayshuba✭✭✭✭✭Let's be honest here. This game is now five years in. While balance adjustments should still happen in relation to player discovered meta, wild swings for the fences overhauling the entirety of character skill based class play should not - at this point.
Because of these shoot for the wall patches ZoS keeps doing, the game is perpetually out of balance. While they say they did a skill "audit", the fact that they over compensated dots last patch, when the community gave them feedback that this was going to be the case, yet they went ahead with it anyway. Now they are saying they overcompensated dots.
This isn't a big PvP vs PvE issue here either. Most PvE does not require the same counters that PvE does. Simply pick a baseline we are shooting here for (Singe target dots at 75% of burst hits; AoE target dots at 50% of Single target Dots; skills with extra utility - such as a 3 second stun - at 75% of damage without extras; skills with slot boosters at 50% of standard damage for skill because of the perpetual boost, etc.). After that, for PvP, give specific boosts and counters.
PvE is mainly a damage output game. So boosts and damage are the important skills. PvP is more a counter match type play with one applying damage and another offsetting or eliminating damage. Balance the skills like this first, then make small adjustments.
The U23 update really put this game in a state of why even have classes at all. Or maybe, just maybe, we have enough skills in this game at this point and the only further ones that should be added should be with a new class only.
However, we have another Chapter coming next year so that means some new additions to the content. If the pattern holds, it will mean yet another skill line that will cause some kind of "balance adjustment" so that the skills are somewhat usable.
These are the most ignorant parameters I've ever seen. If dots only do 75% of burst spamables they will never be worth slotting as they would be a waste of a global and slot. If they do 75% of burst spamables a tick then they would be more powerful than they are on live right now. Might want to rethink them.
I wasn't stating it as an absolute, what I am saying was ZoS should pick a baseline and work towards it. I just used those as example. Also, it would vary depending on if there was initial damage and ticks. The point being, it seems ZoS is all over the map with these things from patch to patch. A true audit should have them outlining what they want from skills and making them conform to them. But what we have is a bunch of "hey, let's make this do that, that sounds cool". Then next patch it's "well that may have been a bit much so, even though nerfing it maybe 15% would work, we will nerf it 75% because 'reasons' "
When I used the example of the single target dots, I was referring to the initial burst damage. So, overall they may choose it to do 150% of burst, but only 75% initially. If the skill comes with a additive - such as a 3 second stun - then this damage should probably be 50% or less. Especially since the stun usually means landing a second hit.
In the end, what I was trying to say is because ZoS has approached these changes without any rhyme, reason or forethought, we are five years in getting combat skill changes that would be more like a game is still in alpha state. This should not be happening with such a broad swath in a five year old game.Edited by Wayshuba on September 15, 2019 9:27PM0 -
cmvet✭✭✭I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.
I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.
So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.
Hmm, I have not noticed my Stam based single target dot tool tips taking a 25-50% buff in scalebreaker. The tool tips are all about the same as they were before scalebreaker. So I hope they don't nerf those to that extent.
They just gave me another one in soul trap. Yes it hits too hard, and it shouldn't be an aoe as well for how hard it hits.0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I’d also be curious to know what this change/reversion is based on? Did I miss some threads asking for more AoE dot damage? I can’t see it being from PvPers and it seems like PvE dps doesn’t need help.
I believe from my understanding they will be tuned in with the single target dots AFTER they are nerfed back to earth. I imagine a 50-60% nerf on things like entropy and soul trap.
So for pve to maintain parse numbers, something has to get buffed. This also comes at no cost of healing tool tips. 12-15k entropy...? 20k rapid/mutegen.
Hmm, I have not noticed my Stam based single target dot tool tips taking a 25-50% buff in scalebreaker. The tool tips are all about the same as they were before scalebreaker. So I hope they don't nerf those to that extent.
They just gave me another one in soul trap. Yes it hits too hard, and it shouldn't be an aoe as well for how hard it hits.
Most single target dots did to get a buff. If they reign them all in some will be very weak. We find out in about 10 hours or so.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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Entropy isn't the only skill that has both damage and utility attached to it. Dizzying Swing, Cripple, Reflective Light, Bombard, etc...all have utility + damage attached (and in Dizzying Swing's case, it'll do as much, if not more damage in 1 second than Entropy will do in 12).Comparing them and saying would you trade one over the other is dumb because they are completely different in what they do. If I wanted a heal id pick rally and if I wanted dmg I'd pick entropy. Lol.
Entropy is overloaded because it's simply doing too much. It's a utility skill that deals the same dmg as dmg skills. That's dumb and bad design. I'm not saying it didn't need a buff, it did but not this buff.
If ur entropy deals 1k every 2 seconds ur build Is problematic.
If you want to make the argument that Major Sorcery/Brutality should only be attached to skills that do 0 damage, for whatever reason, then that's fine. But you should at least make a tiny amount of effort to suggest what extra bonuses the skill should have that would keep it on the same level as Rally and Forward Momentum (and obviously, it would be usable without a target, in that case).
It's also not "my" Entropy that averages out to around 1k damage every 2 seconds, it's everyone's Entropy in no-CP. To use a previously mentioned screenshot as an example...I was getting zerged down 4v1 in a Battleground, and my death recap shows the following:
MagSorc1 - x5 Degeneration for 6,600 (this is an exception to the rule, probably due to a lot of crits)
MagSorc2 - x6 Degeneration for 6,674
MagNecro - x5 Degeneration for 5,180
MagSorc1 - x1 Crystal Fragments for 8,139
MagSorc1 - x1 Endless Fury for 3,775
I survived their DOTs (and the poor AI of the Blastbones) for a while via LOS, counter-CC, and self healing. That 8,139 Crystal Frag, plus curse(s) that didn't get listed because their total damage was lower than the DOTs, is what did me in. Had that team been two Stam Sorcs and a Stam Necro instead, all 1-button spamming Dizzying Swing with 0 DOTs, I'd have died a whole heck of a lot faster.
There is a big difference between a skill having some utility and a skill being categorized as a utility skill because it gives a ton of utility. I didnt say it shouldnt deal dmg but entropy being categorized as a utility skill shouldnt have dmg capabilities to the point where it can be compared to dmg skills. You could say that its essentially 2 skills in one. I did say it should be buffed so keep the "tiny amount of effort" in an attempt to make me look like the bad guy who wants the skill nerfed to the ground for urself. This standarization project of ZOS treating every skill in the same way without looking at the abilities themselves is probably the dumbest idea they ever had.
And im not even gonna get into the comparison of dots vs burst abilities, spammables or whatever cause the mere fact that you even compare their numbers in an attempt to make the dots look balanced is laughable. Not everything is about numbers. Im gonna give you a hint. There is a big difference between afk dmg and dmg that has to be timed well in the midst of combat. And honestly even looking at the the numbers themselves anyone who cares about skilled PVP and has in depth knowledge of the mechanics can understand how Dot numbers are out of control. Simply put, single target dots being capable of doing 1k+ DPS on their own is dumb.
I mean, just looking at ur own example anyone can understand how stupid dots are. Yes a team of two stam sorcs would also be able to kill you with dizzying timed with their ults or whatever. The difference is that had those two stam sorcs been potatoes, they would probably never kill you if you are good enough and outplay them, dodge their swings or whatever and kill them while they are going full offence on you. In the other example those two sorcs could be potatoes doing that huge dot dmg to you and you would have to take it while they can go in their kitchen making coffee.
See, not everything is about the end result. It doesnt always matter whether you end up dead or actually win the fight. What matters is the fight itself. There is a big difference between dying because two players timed well their abilities and two players tagging you with two dots and you have to start running around trees and rocks spamming heals while they can /sitchair and watch you melt with their afk dmg. Guess which one of the two scenarios promotes healthy/skilled gameplay.
P.S. What i mostly like about ur argument is how you disregard dot dmg that is very high due to crits but at the same time you rush to bring those crit frags in ur comparison just to make ur point. Yeah, taking a card out of ur own playbook, next time you want to make an argument at least make a tiny bit of effort to be objective.Edited by pieratsos on September 16, 2019 8:55AM1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm not trying to make you look like "the bad guy," just asking you to actually put some effort into your nerf-calls. You want the damage nerfed, I get it - but what do you want to give the skill in return? You say that Entropy is a utility skill...but it has noticeably less utility than either Rally or Forward Momentum, and if its damage goes down very much, it'll once again be garbage in comparison to them. It's less of a "two-in-one" than it is a hybrid utility/damage skill.There is a big difference between a skill having some utility and a skill being categorized as a utility skill because it gives a ton of utility. I didnt say it shouldnt deal dmg but entropy being categorized as a utility skill shouldnt have dmg capabilities to the point where it can be compared to dmg skills. You could say that its essentially 2 skills in one. I did say it should be buffed so keep the "tiny amount of effort" in an attempt to make me look like the bad guy who wants the skill nerfed to the ground for urself. This standarization project of ZOS treating every skill in the same way without looking at the abilities themselves is probably the dumbest idea they ever had.
You quoted and referenced the numbers that I gave, then claimed double the actual DPS...Are you under the impression that Entropy ticks once per second, instead of once every two seconds? That largest-per-tick Entropy averaged 1,320 damage per tick, which means 660 DPS. The more typical number of 5,180 x5 breaks down to an average of 1,036 per tick, which means 518 DPS.And im not even gonna get into the comparison of dots vs burst abilities, spammables or whatever cause the mere fact that you even compare their numbers in an attempt to make the dots look balanced is laughable. Not everything is about numbers. Im gonna give you a hint. There is a big difference between afk dmg and dmg that has to be timed well in the midst of combat. And honestly even looking at the the numbers themselves anyone who cares about skilled PVP and has in depth knowledge of the mechanics can understand how Dot numbers are out of control. Simply put, single target dots being capable of doing 1k+ DPS on their own is dumb.
And if you think 6k+ damage in one second, instead of over 12 seconds (assuming the DOT doesn't get cleansed), is only valuable when it's "well timed in the midst of combat," then I dunno what to tell you. Most Stam builds in BGs aren't looking for some perfect, narrow window in order to hit their Dizzying Swing button...they're spamming it over and over. Same goes for Mag Sorcs, too - sitting on a Crystal Frag proc for very long is the exception and not the rule. You're exaggerating both DOT damage and the skill level required to be successful with burst abilities.
Those three Entropy casts combined did a grand total of ~1,734 DPS to me. You think I'm going to die to just that, even in no-CP? Fact is, I was surviving it just fine until they managed to burst me. Three bad players hitting Dizzying Swing over and over is much more dangerous than three bad players trying to kill me with Entropy. (As an aside, none of the three players in the screenshot are actually bad)I mean, just looking at ur own example anyone can understand how stupid dots are. Yes a team of two stam sorcs would also be able to kill you with dizzying timed with their ults or whatever. The difference is that had those two stam sorcs been potatoes, they would probably never kill you if you are good enough and outplay them, dodge their swings or whatever and kill them while they are going full offence on you. In the other example those two sorcs could be potatoes doing that huge dot dmg to you and you would have to take it while they can go in their kitchen making coffee.
You don't need to be a mathematician to realize that critting on big damage is a heck of a lot better than critting on much smaller hits. The 8,139 damage Crystal Frag required one crit, while the 6,600 over-5-ticks required...probably at least three or four crits. That many crits in a row on Crystal Frag would be vastly more powerful than "wasting" them on Entropy ticks.P.S. What i mostly like about ur argument is how you disregard dot dmg that is very high due to crits but at the same time you rush to bring those crit frags in ur comparison just to make ur point. Yeah, taking a card out of ur own playbook, next time you want to make an argument at least make a tiny bit of effort to be objective.3 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm not trying to make you look like "the bad guy," just asking you to actually put some effort into your nerf-calls. You want the damage nerfed, I get it - but what do you want to give the skill in return? You say that Entropy is a utility skill...but it has noticeably less utility than either Rally or Forward Momentum, and if its damage goes down very much, it'll once again be garbage in comparison to them. It's less of a "two-in-one" than it is a hybrid utility/damage skill.There is a big difference between a skill having some utility and a skill being categorized as a utility skill because it gives a ton of utility. I didnt say it shouldnt deal dmg but entropy being categorized as a utility skill shouldnt have dmg capabilities to the point where it can be compared to dmg skills. You could say that its essentially 2 skills in one. I did say it should be buffed so keep the "tiny amount of effort" in an attempt to make me look like the bad guy who wants the skill nerfed to the ground for urself. This standarization project of ZOS treating every skill in the same way without looking at the abilities themselves is probably the dumbest idea they ever had.
You quoted and referenced the numbers that I gave, then claimed double the actual DPS...Are you under the impression that Entropy ticks once per second, instead of once every two seconds? That largest-per-tick Entropy averaged 1,320 damage per tick, which means 660 DPS. The more typical number of 5,180 x5 breaks down to an average of 1,036 per tick, which means 518 DPS.And im not even gonna get into the comparison of dots vs burst abilities, spammables or whatever cause the mere fact that you even compare their numbers in an attempt to make the dots look balanced is laughable. Not everything is about numbers. Im gonna give you a hint. There is a big difference between afk dmg and dmg that has to be timed well in the midst of combat. And honestly even looking at the the numbers themselves anyone who cares about skilled PVP and has in depth knowledge of the mechanics can understand how Dot numbers are out of control. Simply put, single target dots being capable of doing 1k+ DPS on their own is dumb.
And if you think 6k+ damage in one second, instead of over 12 seconds (assuming the DOT doesn't get cleansed), is only valuable when it's "well timed in the midst of combat," then I dunno what to tell you. Most Stam builds in BGs aren't looking for some perfect, narrow window in order to hit their Dizzying Swing button...they're spamming it over and over. Same goes for Mag Sorcs, too - sitting on a Crystal Frag proc for very long is the exception and not the rule. You're exaggerating both DOT damage and the skill level required to be successful with burst abilities.
Those three Entropy casts combined did a grand total of ~1,734 DPS to me. You think I'm going to die to just that, even in no-CP? Fact is, I was surviving it just fine until they managed to burst me. Three bad players hitting Dizzying Swing over and over is much more dangerous than three bad players trying to kill me with Entropy. (As an aside, none of the three players in the screenshot are actually bad)I mean, just looking at ur own example anyone can understand how stupid dots are. Yes a team of two stam sorcs would also be able to kill you with dizzying timed with their ults or whatever. The difference is that had those two stam sorcs been potatoes, they would probably never kill you if you are good enough and outplay them, dodge their swings or whatever and kill them while they are going full offence on you. In the other example those two sorcs could be potatoes doing that huge dot dmg to you and you would have to take it while they can go in their kitchen making coffee.
You don't need to be a mathematician to realize that critting on big damage is a heck of a lot better than critting on much smaller hits. The 8,139 damage Crystal Frag required one crit, while the 6,600 over-5-ticks required...probably at least three or four crits. That many crits in a row on Crystal Frag would be vastly more powerful than "wasting" them on Entropy ticks.P.S. What i mostly like about ur argument is how you disregard dot dmg that is very high due to crits but at the same time you rush to bring those crit frags in ur comparison just to make ur point. Yeah, taking a card out of ur own playbook, next time you want to make an argument at least make a tiny bit of effort to be objective.
Entropy has comparable utility to rally without even counting the dmg it does. Rally has a conditional burst heal and a minor regen buff. Dunno where you see that "noticeably less". In any case the dmg it does is too much.
I am not claiming double the DPS of the skill. Im just not using ur own numbers as the end all be all standard of how much dmg the skill can do. You want to use the lowest common denominator of no CP no crits mediocre dmg for ur example be my guest. Just dont expect me to use this as the standard of how much dmg it can do. I talked about capabilities and they sure as hell can do way more dmg than that.
And yes you dont have to use frags or dizzy timed in the midst of combat. But im talking about actually skilled gameplay. Only potatoes and target dummies die to someone spamming frags or dizzy and only dead people try to spam them. Im not exaggerating anything, there is a clear distinction between afk dmg that you have to eat from a freaking utility skill and skills that have to be timed well and actually have the primary function of being dmg skills.
And yea almost 2k DPS of afk dmg that allows them to do anything they want in the meantime is actually a lot of dmg. Maybe if those dumb dots didnt do that much dmg you wouldnt probably have to spam heals and be able to counter the burst and turn the fight around. If you dont understand what it means to be under the constant pressure of almost 2k DPS in a PVP environment then im the one who dont know what to tell you. So yeah by all means keep defending them because they were not the killing blow.
And you dont need to be a mathematician to realize that losing a crit on one skill is also a hell of a lot easier on losing crits on all six ticks. You dont seem to know how probabilities work so im really not gonna bother to teach you. Just google it.
You keep failing to grasp the point. The issue isnt whether frags or entropy does more dmg. The issue is that DOTs doing afk while being packed with utility are even comparable to skills with high skill cap and primary focus of doing dmg.Edited by pieratsos on September 16, 2019 6:51PM0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Game is dying, devs are *** and don’t listen, just play WOW classic..... at least blizzard deserves my money.
I would be if their simulated spell batching wasn't breaking hunter's right now. You can't reliably FD then Frost trap like you could back in Vanilla due to how the spell batching works. Your pet can still be counted as "in combat", and causes it to fail half the time, which pretty much means in PVP I can't rely on FD + trap or FD + shadowmeld, etc.0
