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State Comparison of Echoing/Resolving Vigor to Live and other similar heals

  • The_Last_Titan
    The_Last_Titan
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    Rapid Regen should actually heal more than Vigor. A few reasons why:

    1. Rapid Regen is gated behind the restoration staff, so if you use Rapid Regen it needs to be on a defensive bar. This forces you to slot a defensive weapon on one of your bars. Vigor does not have the same issue. You don’t need to slot sword-and-board to use it.

    2. The fact that you need a restoration staff to use Rapid Regen also makes it impossible to really use Rapid Regen on your front bar—which is problematic for a heal that only lasts 5 seconds. Again, Vigor does not have this issue. You can put it on the front bar no matter what.

    3. Rapid Regen can go to someone else instead of you, which makes it much less reliable as a self-heal.

    4. The game is sort of balanced around Magicka classes being better at healing than Stamina classes. In exchange, those stamina classes get certain advantages that the Magicka classes don’t have. Those advantages depend on what class we are talking about, but examples include that certain classes only have an execute if they go Stamina, some classes only have a gap closer if they go Stamina, there are classes that have far superior options to stun with Stamina (and this will be even more true after the changes to Destructive Touch), you generally have the capability to be tankier with Stamina due to having sword and board and not being in light armor. None of this is to say that Stamina classes are actually way better or anything. I personally prefer Magicka classes. But there is clearly meant to be a tradeoff, in which the big advantage for Magicka classes is superiority in healing. If Vigor were better than Rapid Regen, then that balance gets thrown off a lot.

    ok so lets reduce rapid regenerations heal by 30% and make it guarantee hit on caster, but id rather not ask for nerfs..

    edit: this would just about even the heal per second for the stats OP gave, rapid would still have 1 more second....
    Edited by The_Last_Titan on August 7, 2019 2:27AM
  • katorga
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    For DW for only about a 1% dps loss just slot Bloodthirst instead of rapid strikes. Same exact character and gear just those 2 different and I got lucky with rng for a good comparison.
    v0lmu7vtmhb8.png

    2wqi3j9zijkt.png

    with those numbers you can save stam by switching for a very minmal loss and heal for over 5k every spammable so not too bad a trade off. Throw down Circle if you think you need a hot with the benefit of 3% dps for it being slotted.

    Bloodthirst is a gem, and pretty much assured of any proc'ing any set with a damage done requirement. Too bad the DW "gap closer" is such garbage.
    susmitds wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    Crixus8000 wrote: »
    akray21 wrote: »
    We want to change the heavy armor meta? This does the opposite, it reinforces the HA meta.

    Exactly.

    When the first patch notes came out I was actually happy about finally playing medium, and then every new patch note made medium less of an option, to the point now where I wouldn't even consider it. They nerfed survivability and healing, while buffing overall damage.

    I tend to agree. Ironically when all of this shakes out the top pvp classes will be NB and MagSorc.
    Lol, what. Have you even dueled in PTS after 5.1.4? The strongest specs are by far magplar and magdk.

    Just watch. The cries will be about NB and Sorc's dotting players up at max range then running away. Dots and kiting have a long history in mmos. Once a group of players stacks 5-6 dots on you it is over. Dueling isn't the same.

    Edited by katorga on August 7, 2019 4:05AM
  • Anyron
    Anyron
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    I thought it was always like this.

    While magicka had better heals and shields stamina had better Damage, movement options (snare and root immunity) and utility options - dodge, block, sprint

    Now you are surprised magicka and stamina heals are not even? Why is that?

    It is same like with Race against time - it was nerfed from 4s immunity to 2s because everyone have easy access to this skill

    Everyone can slot vigor with any weapon. While resto staff has to be equipped to use RR (rapid regen) and RR (radial regen)
    Edited by Anyron on August 7, 2019 4:41AM
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Anyron wrote: »
    I thought it was always like this.

    While magicka had better heals and shields stamina had better Damage, movement options (snare and root immunity) and utility options - dodge, block, sprint

    Now you are surprised magicka and stamina heals are not even? Why is that?

    It is same like with Race against time - it was nerfed from 4s immunity to 2s because everyone have easy access to this skill

    Everyone can slot vigor with any weapon. While resto staff has to be equipped to use RR (rapid regen) and RR (radial regen)

    It's not about RR against vigor, it's RR against absolutely any healing in the game. Basically it ticks in 2 seconds on the level of burst heals like BoL or Coagulating and then ticks 3 times more while it costs like 40% cheaper. So two times more healing for much cheaper cost while still being bursty.

    I agree that 5.1.0 vigor was OP for PVE, and it should've been nerfed, but other means of healing for stamina in PVP should be provided before vigor nerf. Same with magicka, if ZOS wants us to outheal this new dots, this should be done through distributed healing means, not by one OP ability.
    Restart your router
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Think about it. Healers werent wanted in BGs apart from premades. Maybe we could switch this.

    There is not many changes really for pvp stamina. We will heal more or less the same in less time; stamina will do the same: vigor + dodge and not getting any damage till full Vigor goes up. With just a single dodge, it will close to the full healing. Sure, we will miss Rally the ones who use 2H ,which are not everyone.

    It will be true if not for 2 powerful 28m+ undodgeable dots.

    I think two uses of Vigor will more or less kept the dots (and the dots need that time to deal full damage).

    You can spam vigor all you want. It will not outheal the dots

    Depends on the build, a build with no mitigation probably not.

    Wich is the majority of all players in medium armor, oof.
    Altmer Sorceror, magicka
    Bosmer Nightblade, stamina.
    Imperial Templar, stamina
    Redguard Warden, stamina

    Aldmeri Dominion!
    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Hexquisite
    Hexquisite
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    I feel like the team that made these changes don't pvp in open world, esp the 30 day CP campaign.

    1. 4 seconds on Vigor is too short with the desync and lag spikes that often happen. It is too short of an offensive window, esp outnumbered, which you will 99% of the time be in the CP 30 Day.

    2. I have seen the future, and it is painful, I run a high mitagation Templar, and if you get caught by 2 people running the new dots, it is very hard to keep up with the incoming damage/and cleanse the dots, esp if one is a NB. Besides the dots they will be run combos of bleeds, ravaging health, creeping health and the Vulnerability, Ravage Magicka and Ravage Stamina damage potion. It is prob hard with one person as well, but open world you never see just one person 99% of the time.

    3. If you play in open world, you know your RR is going to go someone else first...I don't think that I will carry this, as it is too expensive to have to cast to try and get it on yourself over and over..and really during a fight, in open world 30 day cp campaign, often times bar swapping doesn't even work. RR is just not reliable in that scenario, maybe it will be good for BGs.

    4. None of these changes will affect ball groups, they will adapt, and find something even more cancerous, but perahaps it will help with some of the CP 30 Day Lag.
    Edited by Hexquisite on August 7, 2019 6:23PM
    PC NA
    ~Ethereal Traders Union~
    ~Spicy Economics~


  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
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    Can I just get a reduction to Cooldown on Potions by 50% while on Stamina char? Seems legit...
    Xbox One X - NA
    CP 910+


    ~Mains~
    Jabs Giggity - Stamplar
    Fap to my Sweeps - Magplar
    George W AmBush - Stamblade

    ~Alts~
    I Got Electrolytes - Magsorc
    Rhaegeon - MagDK
    Covetous Shen - Magblade - Master Crafter
    Cream Pie Jewelz - Stamden
  • Madhatten512
    Madhatten512
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    I had high hopes for this combat team I really did, but one horrible decision after another listening to whoever screams the loudest on the forums, making changes no one asked for and ignoring the community feedback when we say we don't want it... They refuse to explain the thought process behind these horrible decisions and leave us to just argue amongst ourselves.. Magic takes unexplained nerf stam cheers, Stam gets destroyed mag cheers and so on and so on.. Hides most of the real issues like the game is unplayable 90% of the time in PVP and PVE.. Trails are buggy and pvp is a so laggy that by 3pm eastern you might as well log off.... I don't even care anymore Borderland 3 comes out next month so go ahead and destroy what is left of your game Zenimax there wont be anyone around to tell you how incompetent you are here soon..
  • The_Last_Titan
    The_Last_Titan
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    i can't believe the rapid regen/resolving vigor disparity went live nvm there were tweaks from the last pts notes to live, they are very close now
    Edited by The_Last_Titan on August 12, 2019 11:03PM
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    i can't believe the rapid regen/resolving vigor disparity went live

    Where is disparity? I just checked on my no-CP hybrid (SD/WD the same), regeneration and resolving have almost the same tooltip:
    y5pcalg76fal.jpg
    5p2otr209yzp.jpg

    Restart your router
  • Kaysha
    Kaysha
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    i can't believe the rapid regen/resolving vigor disparity went live

    Where is disparity? I just checked on my no-CP hybrid (SD/WD the same), regeneration and resolving have almost the same tooltip:
    y5pcalg76fal.jpg
    5p2otr209yzp.jpg

    amen

    and now tell me what is better for open world. A heal a long period, that most of the time does not even hit you, or a heal with the same amount of healing in less than half the time that hits you 100% of the time?

    dear stam players, please stop whining.
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Kaysha wrote: »
    i can't believe the rapid regen/resolving vigor disparity went live

    Where is disparity? I just checked on my no-CP hybrid (SD/WD the same), regeneration and resolving have almost the same tooltip:
    y5pcalg76fal.jpg
    5p2otr209yzp.jpg

    amen

    and now tell me what is better for open world. A heal a long period, that most of the time does not even hit you, or a heal with the same amount of healing in less than half the time that hits you 100% of the time?

    dear stam players, please stop whining.

    Well, quite obvious that magicka have RR morph which I don't have opened and which will heal for same amount in 5 seconds and also benefit from resto passives. So RR will still be slightly better, but not ~50% better how it was at 5.1.4.
    Restart your router
  • Kaysha
    Kaysha
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    Kaysha wrote: »
    i can't believe the rapid regen/resolving vigor disparity went live

    Where is disparity? I just checked on my no-CP hybrid (SD/WD the same), regeneration and resolving have almost the same tooltip:
    y5pcalg76fal.jpg
    5p2otr209yzp.jpg

    amen

    and now tell me what is better for open world. A heal a long period, that most of the time does not even hit you, or a heal with the same amount of healing in less than half the time that hits you 100% of the time?

    dear stam players, please stop whining.

    Well, quite obvious that magicka have RR morph which I don't have opened and which will heal for same amount in 5 seconds and also benefit from resto passives. So RR will still be slightly better, but not ~50% better how it was at 5.1.4.

    but still not a guaranteed selfheal...
  • The_Last_Titan
    The_Last_Titan
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    those numbers are quite different from the posters numbers. I dont have any chars atm built for switching primary stat, but those are very different numbers, so one is probably misleading. nvm, they increased resolvings heal
    Edited by The_Last_Titan on August 12, 2019 11:03PM
  • Daedric_NB_187
    Daedric_NB_187
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    Can somebody post a pic of how it looks now on live? I'm a console pleb.
  • The_Last_Titan
    The_Last_Titan
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    Wait a second..
    Difference of tooltips on no-CP hybrid (magicka and stamina, WD/SD are exactly the same):

    nWZDmHz.jpg
    787nEFY.jpg

    Difference is 18936/11835 = 66%. Looks balanced and carefully thought out.
    (no)

    i can't believe the rapid regen/resolving vigor disparity went live

    Where is disparity? I just checked on my no-CP hybrid (SD/WD the same), regeneration and resolving have almost the same tooltip:
    y5pcalg76fal.jpg
    5p2otr209yzp.jpg


    so buff in between the last pts to live? Those are both after the last iteration correct?
  • The_Last_Titan
    The_Last_Titan
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    So this was on the over all "complete" live patch notes, they did apparently rebuff vigor again, kinda sneaked it in for me. I guess there could be even more we wouldn't know unless compared previous pts notes to live ones if the pts values are still ingrained in our brains


    Vigor: Adhered this ability to our AoE HoT standards.
    Increased the duration to 8 seconds from 5 seconds, but decreased the tick frequency to 2 seconds from 1 second.
    Increased the healing per tick by approximately 33%.
    Reduced the cost to 2984 from 3511.
    Resolving Vigor (morph): This morph doubles the frequency, halves the duration, and increases the healing per tick by approximately 43%, but now only targets your character.
    Echoing Vigor (morph): This morph continues to increase the radius, but also increases the duration per rank, up to 10 seconds at rank IV, allowing for 1 additional heal tick. It also no longer ranks up in 1.1% healing per rank.

  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Wait a second..
    Difference of tooltips on no-CP hybrid (magicka and stamina, WD/SD are exactly the same):

    nWZDmHz.jpg
    787nEFY.jpg

    Difference is 18936/11835 = 66%. Looks balanced and carefully thought out.
    (no)

    i can't believe the rapid regen/resolving vigor disparity went live

    Where is disparity? I just checked on my no-CP hybrid (SD/WD the same), regeneration and resolving have almost the same tooltip:
    y5pcalg76fal.jpg
    5p2otr209yzp.jpg


    so buff in between the last pts to live? Those are both after the last iteration correct?

    First post was from PTS 5.1.4, second from live.
    Restart your router
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    Sandman929 wrote: »
    I've seen a lot of people using the word "adapt" since 5.1.1.
    Fewer using it now.

    People say adapt when Zos's changes dont nerf their build or inconvenience their preferred playstyle.

    Truth. Its a desperate attempt to avert attention away from something that is probably too good or OP that benefits them.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    i can't believe the rapid regen/resolving vigor disparity went live

    Where is disparity? I just checked on my no-CP hybrid (SD/WD the same), regeneration and resolving have almost the same tooltip:
    y5pcalg76fal.jpg
    5p2otr209yzp.jpg

    Hmm... and I already was on to use a Pelinals build with Life Giver and Rapid Regen instead of Vigor.

    Is the UESP build editor currently reliable? I just played around to test it with even stats and the result backs your's up.

    5.7k weapon/spell damage, 26.8k stam and mag
    Vigor: 20.187 health over 4s = ~5.046 hps
    RR: 24.232 health over 5s = ~4.846 hps

    Seems like it isn't worth it to go pelinal stam with Resto for a better heal. Except maybe for Light's Champion but then you don't need the hybrid approach.
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on August 13, 2019 9:22AM
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    i can't believe the rapid regen/resolving vigor disparity went live

    Where is disparity? I just checked on my no-CP hybrid (SD/WD the same), regeneration and resolving have almost the same tooltip:
    y5pcalg76fal.jpg
    5p2otr209yzp.jpg

    Hmm... and I already was on to use a Pelinals build with Life Giver and Rapid Regen instead of Vigor.

    Is the UESP build editor currently reliable? I just played around to test it with even stats and the result backs your's up.

    5.7k weapon/spell damage, 26.8k stam and mag
    Vigor: 20.187 health over 4s = ~5.046 hps
    RR: 24.232 health over 5s = ~4.846 hps

    Seems like it isn't worth it to go pelinal stam with Resto for a better heal. Except maybe for Light's Champion but then you don't need the hybrid approach.

    Yep, I had one curious setup with resto in mind, but thanks to vigor buff we can ditch it, lose of damage output with resto was very noticeable in no-CP. Though with pelinal you can have both RR and Vigor at 5k SD/WD :trollface:
    Restart your router
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