State Comparison of Echoing/Resolving Vigor to Live and other similar heals

ThePedge

Iskiab wrote: »

I think the rationale is to kill ball groups in pvp.

Changing healing springs and vigor... those are the two primary healing tools.

True, but the change of being only on yourself or weaker AoE already does that, especially if they dont stack.

Healing yourself doesn't effect ball groups except make it easier for them to kill others

Qbiken

Iskiab wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Think about it. Healers werent wanted in BGs apart from premades. Maybe we could switch this.

There is not many changes really for pvp stamina. We will heal more or less the same in less time; stamina will do the same: vigor + dodge and not getting any damage till full Vigor goes up. With just a single dodge, it will close to the full healing. Sure, we will miss Rally the ones who use 2H ,which are not everyone.

It will be true if not for 2 powerful 28m+ undodgeable dots.

I think two uses of Vigor will more or less kept the dots (and the dots need that time to deal full damage).

You can spam vigor all you want. It will not outheal the dots

Depends on the build, a build with no mitigation probably not.

Sure, people can build towards more tankiness, and most people will probably do that as well with next patch going live (due to how much DoT´s are getting buffed). However, I´m going to guess most people want to move away from the "tank-meta", not being forced into it.

Iskiab

ThePedge wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think the rationale is to kill ball groups in pvp.

Changing healing springs and vigor... those are the two primary healing tools.

True, but the change of being only on yourself or weaker AoE already does that, especially if they dont stack.

Healing yourself doesn't effect ball groups except make it easier for them to kill others

Yea, but that’s why I think they hit echoing. After the resto pass echoing was the best group heal, so they buffed mutagen and brought echoing vigor down to mutagen level.

Resolving technically is a little more HPS on yourself then live, but with buffed damage it might be too much of a nerf. Then they left rapid regen strong since for pve healing not all classes have a good ST heal, so this will let other classes compete with NB and Templar for ST healing.

I can see the intent, but can also see it going poorly because the values might be off. It depends on how things play out in pvp with so many changes.

J18696

My mind is blown as to why they would even consider nerfing vigor and it's morphs if you actually played stam in a real situation other than sitting in a player house trying to cheese a tooltip the healing was fine

TheUndeadAmulet

Sandman929 wrote: »

I've seen a lot of people using the word "adapt" since 5.1.1.
Fewer using it now.

It's hard to adapt when there is no other option to adapt to. The main reason why vigor was so powerful was because it was the only reliable burst heal that stamina classes outside of warden had.

In PvE, this isn't much of an issue. It just reinforces the role that healers should have, which is healing. I like this. The main issue that people are having is that stamina has nothing to fall back for a reliable (key word) burst heal in solo/smallscale PvP. The heal is weaker, the duration is weaker, the cost is higher. It's a triple nerf and stamina classes (except wardens) have no other options. They just have to accept a weaker heal.

Magicka can use resto staff. Or their class heals. Stamina has nothing.

Sandman929

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I've seen a lot of people using the word "adapt" since 5.1.1.
Fewer using it now.

It's hard to adapt when there is no other option to adapt to. The main reason why vigor was so powerful was because it was the only reliable burst heal that stamina classes outside of warden had.

In PvE, this isn't much of an issue. It just reinforces the role that healers should have, which is healing. I like this. The main issue that people are having is that stamina has nothing to fall back for a reliable (key word) burst heal in solo/smallscale PvP. The heal is weaker, the duration is weaker, the cost is higher. It's a triple nerf and stamina classes (except wardens) have no other options. They just have to accept a weaker heal.

Magicka can use resto staff. Or their class heals. Stamina has nothing.

Oh I get it. After 5.1.1, healers gave lots of examples of why they couldn't simply "adapt" too and there was lots of laughing and "good healers will be fine", but now vigor got a weird nerf (which I hate too by the way) and the sky is falling for the same people who were telling others to "git gud" before.

Just gives me a giggle.

RandomKodiak

For DW for only about a 1% dps loss just slot Bloodthirst instead of rapid strikes. Same exact character and gear just those 2 different and I got lucky with rng for a good comparison.




with those numbers you can save stam by switching for a very minmal loss and heal for over 5k every spammable so not too bad a trade off. Throw down Circle if you think you need a hot with the benefit of 3% dps for it being slotted.

Insco851

Iskiab wrote: »

I think the rationale is to kill ball groups in pvp.

Changing healing springs and vigor... those are the two primary healing tools.

Would make sense if they didn’t buff RR/Mut but.....

NBrookus

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

Magicka can use resto staff. Or their class heals. Stamina has nothing.

Resto staff isn't a reliable heal, unless you think your RR/Ward going to the AFK guy at full health stealthed up behind a tree is reliable.

ArtemisPrime81

Well, I *WAS* going to make a necro stam healer for sh*ts and grins....but I may not now. Just rude.

LiquidPony

NBrookus wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

Magicka can use resto staff. Or their class heals. Stamina has nothing.

Resto staff isn't a reliable heal, unless you think your RR/Ward going to the AFK guy at full health stealthed up behind a tree is reliable.

So use Combat Prayer?

Somnilux

LiquidPony wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

Magicka can use resto staff. Or their class heals. Stamina has nothing.

Resto staff isn't a reliable heal, unless you think your RR/Ward going to the AFK guy at full health stealthed up behind a tree is reliable.

So use Combat Prayer?

for a roughly 1 magicka to 2 health ratio at best for a self heal?

That's not possible unless you're completely group healer spec and even then not efficient.

Rapid Regen or Healing Ward will be the efficient personal heals and there will always be unreliable aspects to the targeting of those. Healing Ward seems a little overtuned, but I'll likely be running RR on my nb heals along with healthy offering/illustrious/refreshing path I usually use.

pieratsos

Iskiab wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Think about it. Healers werent wanted in BGs apart from premades. Maybe we could switch this.

There is not many changes really for pvp stamina. We will heal more or less the same in less time; stamina will do the same: vigor + dodge and not getting any damage till full Vigor goes up. With just a single dodge, it will close to the full healing. Sure, we will miss Rally the ones who use 2H ,which are not everyone.

It will be true if not for 2 powerful 28m+ undodgeable dots.

I think two uses of Vigor will more or less kept the dots (and the dots need that time to deal full damage).

You can spam vigor all you want. It will not outheal the dots

Depends on the build, a build with no mitigation probably not.

Yes im sure ur 12k vigor tooltip which has to be recasted every 4 seconds is going to outheal stacked dots with 30k tooltips and triple the duration. lol

akray21

We want to change the heavy armor meta? This does the opposite, it reinforces the HA meta.

Saril_Durzam

I think this has commented already but... they´re not similar skills.

One is a general skill which can be used on any weapon.

The other is a skill from a specialized weapon, which doesnt fit on any PvE DD build.

The day Vigor becomes s&b skill, we will be able to make comparisons.

Jodynn

Vigor should remain 5 seconds, it doesn't make sense to change it to 4...

Crixus8000

akray21 wrote: »

We want to change the heavy armor meta? This does the opposite, it reinforces the HA meta.

Exactly.

When the first patch notes came out I was actually happy about finally playing medium, and then every new patch note made medium less of an option, to the point now where I wouldn't even consider it. They nerfed survivability and healing, while buffing overall damage.

The_Last_Titan

so whats a rapid regen tooltip for a stam character compared to resolving?...

But yeah the difference in healing seems massive between the two

Rikumaru

Iskiab wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Think about it. Healers werent wanted in BGs apart from premades. Maybe we could switch this.

There is not many changes really for pvp stamina. We will heal more or less the same in less time; stamina will do the same: vigor + dodge and not getting any damage till full Vigor goes up. With just a single dodge, it will close to the full healing. Sure, we will miss Rally the ones who use 2H ,which are not everyone.

It will be true if not for 2 powerful 28m+ undodgeable dots.

I think two uses of Vigor will more or less kept the dots (and the dots need that time to deal full damage).

You can spam vigor all you want. It will not outheal the dots

Depends on the build, a build with no mitigation probably not.

You will need to stack multiple HoTs together which on a stamina build is going to be pretty hard due to the lack of healing options on stam. Probably will need to go lingering pots and TK combined with vigor just to survive, but why the heck would you do that for subpar healing when you could go magicka and get infinitely more healing than a stam build while giving up less to get the healing?

Doesn't really matter what people say on the PTS, everyone can see for themselves what PvP will be like if this actually hits live.

katorga

Crixus8000 wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

We want to change the heavy armor meta? This does the opposite, it reinforces the HA meta.

Exactly.

When the first patch notes came out I was actually happy about finally playing medium, and then every new patch note made medium less of an option, to the point now where I wouldn't even consider it. They nerfed survivability and healing, while buffing overall damage.

I tend to agree. Ironically when all of this shakes out the top pvp classes will be NB and MagSorc.

brandonv516

RR was left untouched because it's not a guarantee on the caster. There are times when you need to cast it 3+ times just to hit yourself.

The self morph of Vigor is guaranteed even if it was nerfed. Good players will adjust.

All of this being said, I don't like the upcoming potency of DoTs and truly those are what will need to be toned down.

susmitds

katorga wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

We want to change the heavy armor meta? This does the opposite, it reinforces the HA meta.

Exactly.

When the first patch notes came out I was actually happy about finally playing medium, and then every new patch note made medium less of an option, to the point now where I wouldn't even consider it. They nerfed survivability and healing, while buffing overall damage.

I tend to agree. Ironically when all of this shakes out the top pvp classes will be NB and MagSorc.

Lol, what. Have you even dueled in PTS after 5.1.4? The strongest specs are by far magplar and magdk.

No_Division

susmitds wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

We want to change the heavy armor meta? This does the opposite, it reinforces the HA meta.

Exactly.

When the first patch notes came out I was actually happy about finally playing medium, and then every new patch note made medium less of an option, to the point now where I wouldn't even consider it. They nerfed survivability and healing, while buffing overall damage.

I tend to agree. Ironically when all of this shakes out the top pvp classes will be NB and MagSorc.

Lol, what. Have you even dueled in PTS after 5.1.4? The strongest specs are by far magplar and magdk.

then again nobody did open world tests against outnumbered/group fights lol.
If you think the heals are bad, wait till you get hit with 10X soul trap lol.

Iskiab

Rikumaru wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Think about it. Healers werent wanted in BGs apart from premades. Maybe we could switch this.

There is not many changes really for pvp stamina. We will heal more or less the same in less time; stamina will do the same: vigor + dodge and not getting any damage till full Vigor goes up. With just a single dodge, it will close to the full healing. Sure, we will miss Rally the ones who use 2H ,which are not everyone.

It will be true if not for 2 powerful 28m+ undodgeable dots.

I think two uses of Vigor will more or less kept the dots (and the dots need that time to deal full damage).

You can spam vigor all you want. It will not outheal the dots

Depends on the build, a build with no mitigation probably not.

You will need to stack multiple HoTs together which on a stamina build is going to be pretty hard due to the lack of healing options on stam. Probably will need to go lingering pots and TK combined with vigor just to survive, but why the heck would you do that for subpar healing when you could go magicka and get infinitely more healing than a stam build while giving up less to get the healing?

Doesn't really matter what people say on the PTS, everyone can see for themselves what PvP will be like if this actually hits live.

You’re right. The problem with standardizing abilities is stamina doesn’t have access to as many healing abilities. An ‘OP’ vigor was the crutch used to even the playing field.

Hopefully something like a second heal is in the works, like a stamina heal from a bardic skill line or something like that.

artal

Rikumaru wrote: »

You will need to stack multiple HoTs together which on a stamina build is going to be pretty hard due to the lack of healing options on stam. Probably will need to go lingering pots and TK combined with vigor just to survive, but why the heck would you do that for subpar healing when you could go magicka and get infinitely more healing than a stam build while giving up less to get the healing?

Doesn't really matter what people say on the PTS, everyone can see for themselves what PvP will be like if this actually hits live.

I went on pts to test, magnb vs stam sorc. Entrophy, soul trap, debilitate and reach dot without any direct dmg, just dots, thats 110k tooltip of dots. Gl healing with *** vigor

RiskyChalice863

Rapid Regen should actually heal more than Vigor. A few reasons why:

1. Rapid Regen is gated behind the restoration staff, so if you use Rapid Regen it needs to be on a defensive bar. This forces you to slot a defensive weapon on one of your bars. Vigor does not have the same issue. You don’t need to slot sword-and-board to use it.

2. The fact that you need a restoration staff to use Rapid Regen also makes it impossible to really use Rapid Regen on your front bar—which is problematic for a heal that only lasts 5 seconds. Again, Vigor does not have this issue. You can put it on the front bar no matter what.

3. Rapid Regen can go to someone else instead of you, which makes it much less reliable as a self-heal.

4. The game is sort of balanced around Magicka classes being better at healing than Stamina classes. In exchange, those stamina classes get certain advantages that the Magicka classes don’t have. Those advantages depend on what class we are talking about, but examples include that certain classes only have an execute if they go Stamina, some classes only have a gap closer if they go Stamina, there are classes that have far superior options to stun with Stamina (and this will be even more true after the changes to Destructive Touch), you generally have the capability to be tankier with Stamina due to having sword and board and not being in light armor. None of this is to say that Stamina classes are actually way better or anything. I personally prefer Magicka classes. But there is clearly meant to be a tradeoff, in which the big advantage for Magicka classes is superiority in healing. If Vigor were better than Rapid Regen, then that balance gets thrown off a lot.

MartiniDaniels

Difference of tooltips on no-CP hybrid (magicka and stamina, WD/SD are exactly the same):




Difference is 18936/11835 = 66%. Looks balanced and carefully thought out.
(no)

MartiniDaniels

@ZOS
Please replace "battle cry" in vigor's description for "pitiful cry" or "desperate cry" or something fitting.

MartiniDaniels

Ok, RIP Vigor, stamina can roll-dodge, okay. Tooltip of coagualating in same conditions:


So RR will heal in 2 seconds for same amount as coagualting blood in 1 second, but RR costs 2 times less.

SenpaiNFT

Who would’ve thought that stam would actually have less healing then live in a patch where damage got buffed across the board.