State Comparison of Echoing/Resolving Vigor to Live and other similar heals

susmitds

I am using mirror builds for this test.

Stamina NB - Spriggan+Shacklebreaker+Bloodspawn

Magicka NB - Spinner+Shacklebreaker+Bloodspawn

Resolving Vigor(Live) - 13587 over 5 secs - 2718 HPS
Resolving Vigor(PTS) - 11430 over 4 secs - 2857 HPS
Echoing Vigor(Live) - 10590 over 5 secs - 2118 HPS
Echoing Vigor(PTS) - 14287 over 10 secs - 1428 HPS
Rapid Regen(PTS) - 20680 over 5 secs - 4136 HPS
Radiating Regen(new Mutagen - PTS) - 20680 over 10 secs - 2068 HPS

Insco851

Went from heal meta to ruh-oh meta real quick.

Considering the FAT nerf to shields, it looks fine for RR/Mut.

Echoing better than RR on Live. Resolving over nerfed HEAVY.

olsborg

I dont get why they nerfed it like that. Sure vigor was very strong on classes with major mending , but what about those classes that dont have it...

susmitds

Issues:

1. The new Resolving Vigor is a nerf in every way. Smaller duration means lesser offensive windows. It is harder to keep up all the time and costs more second to do so.
2. Not all classes have Major Mending+healing buffs to cheese Vigor to 30k tooltips. Not all classes have class heals. Vigor is the only reliable heal for some class. For e.g., on stamblade, it is the only reliable heal we have. (Yes, Dark Cloak exists, but it still scales with Spell Critical and is weak on medium armor builds with lesser health and healing and needs us to drop Cloak).
3. No one ever complained about Echoing Vigor in live. It is now going to be way too weak for PvP.
4. With these changes, most stamina classes have literally zero ways to offheal teammates in PvP. Case in point, stamblade and stamsorc. The former class has literally zero group utility to provide in BGs/Small scale PvP now.
5. This changes goes totally against the stamina playstyle of keeping Vigor up preemptively and reacting with dodge+block. 4sec is too low for that and the opportunity cost is no longer going to be worth it.
6. This change will single handedly kill medium armor builds.
7. A single DoT can do 75% damage per second as this new Resolving Vigor. Given that we also lost Momentum HoT, this is ridiculous. Two or three DoTs can't be outhealed.
8. BTW, did I mention that Entropy and Soul Trap doesn't have a initial hit. So you can't dodge it as well. So if you don't have a class purge, rest in peace.
9. So the strongest self heal in the game is going to be one of the weakest.

susmitds

Radiating Regen(Mutagen) is now better as a self heal than Resolving Vigor given that it has more than 2xduration and 80% of the heal in spite of the fact that is it is AoE heal of 28m range.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

Insco851

susmitds wrote: »

Radiating Regen(Mutagen) is now better as a self heal than Resolving Vigor given that it has more than 2xduration and 80% of the heal.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

It took all of 3 minutes reading the latest patch to realize they didn’t put RR/MUT in line with the vigor nerfs. Imagine they know as well.

Resolving needs a buff tho regardless not nerfs for counter part heals on the other side with similar issues withstanding.

olsborg

susmitds wrote: »

Issues:

1. The new Resolving Vigor is a nerf in every way. Smaller duration means lesser offensive windows. It is harder to keep up all the time and costs more second to do so.
2. Not all classes have Major Mending+healing buffs to cheese Vigor to 30k tooltips. Not all classes have class heals. Vigor is the only reliable heal for some class. For e.g., on stamblade, it is the only reliable heal we have. (Yes, Dark Cloak exists, but it still scales with Spell Critical and is weak on medium armor builds with lesser health and healing and needs us to drop Cloak).
3. No one ever complained about Echoing Vigor in live. It is now going to be way too weak for PvP.
4. With these changes, most stamina classes have literally zero ways to offheal teammates in PvP. Case in point, stamblade and stamsorc. The former class has literally zero group utility to provide in BGs/Small scale PvP now.
5. This changes goes totally against the stamina playstyle of keeping Vigor up preemptively and reacting with dodge+block. 4sec is too low for that and the opportunity cost is no longer going to be worth it.
6. This change will single handedly kill medium armor builds.
7. A single DoT can do 75% damage per second as this new Resolving Vigor. Given that we also lost Momentum HoT, this is ridiculous. Two or three DoTs can't be outhealed.
8. BTW, did I mention that Entropy and Soul Trap doesn't have a initial hit. So you can't dodge it as well. So if you don't have a class purge, rest in peace.
9. So the strongest self heal in the game is going to be one of the weakest.

Well written. Agreed.

Derra

I think you can dodge entropy initial hit- atleast you can on live.
Haven’t tested that on pts.

Vapirko

olsborg wrote: »

I dont get why they nerfed it like that. Sure vigor was very strong on classes with major mending , but what about those classes that dont have it...

Because whiners who posted cheesed tooltips, a better question is why they listened to those people/apparently didn’t do the math or look at the effects on PTS themselves.

Thanks @susmitds great work as always. What would we do without you.

vesselwiththepestle

I'll try echoing vigor in pve. Resolving vigor seems completely pointless.

Derra

Vapirko wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

I dont get why they nerfed it like that. Sure vigor was very strong on classes with major mending , but what about those classes that dont have it...

Because whiners who posted cheesed tooltips, a better question is why they listened to those people/apparently didn’t do the math or look at the effects on PTS.

Same what happened to shields really.
We can only hope that it goes live and is terrible instead of mediocre.
Mediocre never gets fixed. Terrible in 3 to 6 months.

susmitds

@Derra I doubt someone in ZoS understands the concept of offensive windows in the first place, looking at these changes at large.

Derra

I think they understand it perfectly fine. They just don’t want good players to have one against bad players outnumbering them on a scale where the latter might feel embarrassed for losing.

susmitds

Derra wrote: »

I think they understand it perfectly fine. They just don’t want good players to have one against bad players outnumbering them on a scale where the latter might feel embarrassed for losing.

That will just push the good players towards tankier builds. Or go to straight up gank builds, so you can kill in one or two GCDs.
For me, at least main reason to play brawlerblade was the group utility and the healing power to maintain offensive when outnumbered, especially in BGs where AoE stacked everywhere. Now, with both group utility of healing and offensive window gone, I see no reason not to go full on burst build, possibly with permacloaking capabilities.

Saril_Durzam

Looks like ZoS want heals to be handed by actual healers, huh?

The issue with Vigor in PTS was that healers werent much needed. This change puts Vigor on par with other non-resto staff heals. Okay, probably it´s still better.

Ive been playing my Warden with just Vigor as heal (and Foward Momentum on Pvp), having an entire healing skill line to use. That means something.

So, as a conclussion, we have seen this patch many heals/class heals nerfed. Healing on DD Sorcs? not anymore. Healing on stamina classes? Not as OP anymore. Healing on 2H? Nope. What´s left then for serious healing?

Healers.

I think we were crying that healers werent needed anymore. I think ZoS want them to be worthy again, let´s see if changes will work.

Right now i think Pvp wise they´re good, and pve wise, horrible.

susmitds

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Looks like ZoS want heals to be handed by actual healers, huh?

The issue with Vigor in PTS was that healers werent much needed. This change puts Vigor on par with other non-resto staff heals. Okay, probably it´s still better.

Ive been playing my Warden with just Vigor as heal (and Foward Momentum on Pvp), having an entire healing skill line to use. That means something.

So, as a conclussion, we have seen this patch many heals/class heals nerfed. Healing on DD Sorcs? not anymore. Healing on stamina classes? Not as OP anymore. Healing on 2H? Nope. What´s left then for serious healing?

Healers.

I think we were crying that healers werent needed anymore. I think ZoS want them to be worthy again, let´s see if changes will work.

Right now i think Pvp wise they´re good, and pve wise, horrible.

Except apart from Warden and to an extent, StamDK, no stam class has that kind of healing power.
Pushing healers on PvP is a ridiculous change. Every class should have enough healing power to survive without dedicated healers.

Saril_Durzam

Think about it. Healers werent wanted in BGs apart from premades. Maybe we could switch this.

And not every class will have healing power, thats for sure. Mag classes without resto staff wont have efficient healing except Templar and Warden. Stamina classes will have few healing but still much efficient.

There is not many changes really for pvp stamina. We will heal more or less the same in less time; stamina will do the same: vigor + dodge and not getting any damage till full Vigor goes up. With just a single dodge, it will close to the full healing. Sure, we will miss Rally the ones who use 2H ,which are not everyone.

Basically every magicka who wants to be healed in PvP will have to slot Resto staff, and stamina players will keep slotting Vigor. So magicka will have less DPS options with just one bar for DPSing but will have better HPS, and shields nerfs will mean that healing will be more important. And let´s not forget tanks nerfs for pvp aswell...

Overall i doubt things will change much in Pvp. Magicka will keep being squishy, stamina will keep using dodge to avoid most damage, and tanks will be used mostly for... tanking.

PvE wise that´s another issue. Content will be harder, which imho is good, as you can pug easily even some vet trials...

Crixus8000

So stam healing and survivability this patch was nerfed while dot damage was increase and they changed onslaught to give 12 seconds of ignoring pen...

This patch isn't looking very fun. Solo/smallscale in no cp will be so hard to survive.

MartiniDaniels

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Think about it. Healers werent wanted in BGs apart from premades. Maybe we could switch this.

There is not many changes really for pvp stamina. We will heal more or less the same in less time; stamina will do the same: vigor + dodge and not getting any damage till full Vigor goes up. With just a single dodge, it will close to the full healing. Sure, we will miss Rally the ones who use 2H ,which are not everyone.

It will be true if not for 2 powerful 28m+ undodgeable dots.

killingspreeb16_ESO

So they remove the hot from rally/fm and made vigor worse than live with every dot buffed,yeah make sense to me./sarcasm

Rapid on the other hand heal 2 time more than vigor and can heal even more if we add the two passive and BR staff.

Good thing classic is coming out soon i guess.

Saril_Durzam

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Think about it. Healers werent wanted in BGs apart from premades. Maybe we could switch this.

There is not many changes really for pvp stamina. We will heal more or less the same in less time; stamina will do the same: vigor + dodge and not getting any damage till full Vigor goes up. With just a single dodge, it will close to the full healing. Sure, we will miss Rally the ones who use 2H ,which are not everyone.

It will be true if not for 2 powerful 28m+ undodgeable dots.

I think two uses of Vigor will more or less kept the dots (and the dots need that time to deal full damage).

Durham

Overkill on the nerf

Sandman929

I've seen a lot of people using the word "adapt" since 5.1.1.
Fewer using it now.

Iskiab

I think the rationale is to kill ball groups in pvp.

Changing healing springs and vigor... those are the two primary healing tools.

Murador178

Iskiab wrote: »

I think the rationale is to kill ball groups in pvp.

Changing healing springs and vigor... those are the two primary healing tools.

To do that u would need to just cap group size at 8. And make every aoe scale like proxy det. 4 people stacking 2 steel tornados --> 4 players less.

Iskiab

Murador178 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think the rationale is to kill ball groups in pvp.

Changing healing springs and vigor... those are the two primary healing tools.

To do that u would need to just cap group size at 8. And make every aoe scale like proxy det. 4 people stacking 2 steel tornados --> 4 players less.

Why? Stamwardens with vigor and healing springs are the two main healing tools. Ground effects were buffed which are only effective in pve. Aoe caps were removed. I don’t think you’ll see much stacking in pvp after the patch.

Looks like vigor was over nerfed, but the reasoning I think is one things a lot of players have been asking for.

Aztlan

I think the OP makes an excellent point about the negative impact of reducing the duration of Vigor from 5 to 4 seconds. The new Resolving Vigor will give you slightly more healing per second than it does now, but in practice it's going to be harder to keep up, especially if you backbar it. So medium armor builds will be more vulnerable if they stay on the offensive for more than 3 seconds, especially in melee range.

Iskiab

Aztlan wrote: »

I think the OP makes an excellent point about the negative impact of reducing the duration of Vigor from 5 to 4 seconds. The new Resolving Vigor will give you slightly more healing per second than it does now, but in practice it's going to be harder to keep up, especially if you backbar it. So medium armor builds will be more vulnerable if they stay on the offensive for more than 3 seconds, especially in melee range.

4 seconds means frontbar.

I think this is what happens when people go crazy after PTS changes. Every healing increase had complaints; Ward Ally, Rapid Regen, Vigor, ritual of retribution. So the result is healing will be overall lower. Mob mentality about specific tooltips from people who didn’t even log on PTS to see why changes were made.

JWillCHS

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Think about it. Healers werent wanted in BGs apart from premades. Maybe we could switch this.

And not every class will have healing power, thats for sure. Mag classes without resto staff wont have efficient healing except Templar and Warden. Stamina classes will have few healing but still much efficient.

There is not many changes really for pvp stamina. We will heal more or less the same in less time; stamina will do the same: vigor + dodge and not getting any damage till full Vigor goes up. With just a single dodge, it will close to the full healing. Sure, we will miss Rally the ones who use 2H ,which are not everyone.

Basically every magicka who wants to be healed in PvP will have to slot Resto staff, and stamina players will keep slotting Vigor. So magicka will have less DPS options with just one bar for DPSing but will have better HPS, and shields nerfs will mean that healing will be more important. And let´s not forget tanks nerfs for pvp aswell...

Overall i doubt things will change much in Pvp. Magicka will keep being squishy, stamina will keep using dodge to avoid most damage, and tanks will be used mostly for... tanking.

PvE wise that´s another issue. Content will be harder, which imho is good, as you can pug easily even some vet trials...

I never really looked at it from this perspective. We'll see how DoT damage is utilize in Scalebreaker which is the concern of many.

But I really like the idea of the Restoration Staff being more impactful for healers in PvP. Another question is how will magicka players utilize it who are not focus on healing? That's the interesting part. Regeneration still doesn't prioritize the caster but the two lowest HP allies, right?

pieratsos

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Think about it. Healers werent wanted in BGs apart from premades. Maybe we could switch this.

There is not many changes really for pvp stamina. We will heal more or less the same in less time; stamina will do the same: vigor + dodge and not getting any damage till full Vigor goes up. With just a single dodge, it will close to the full healing. Sure, we will miss Rally the ones who use 2H ,which are not everyone.

It will be true if not for 2 powerful 28m+ undodgeable dots.

I think two uses of Vigor will more or less kept the dots (and the dots need that time to deal full damage).

You can spam vigor all you want. It will not outheal the dots

Iskiab

pieratsos wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Think about it. Healers werent wanted in BGs apart from premades. Maybe we could switch this.

There is not many changes really for pvp stamina. We will heal more or less the same in less time; stamina will do the same: vigor + dodge and not getting any damage till full Vigor goes up. With just a single dodge, it will close to the full healing. Sure, we will miss Rally the ones who use 2H ,which are not everyone.

It will be true if not for 2 powerful 28m+ undodgeable dots.

I think two uses of Vigor will more or less kept the dots (and the dots need that time to deal full damage).

You can spam vigor all you want. It will not outheal the dots

Depends on the build, a build with no mitigation probably not.