Vigor on PTS

Nerftheforums · August 2019

LoreToo wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

SilverPaws wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93 don't bother with @LoreToo... He is zergling that got 2vX by me often No game knowledge there.

I would like to add some salty coment about useless smallscalers, but i guess its agains rules. You know your path.

@ecru give us nice screenshots, so lets take a look. Tooltip is around 30k, with some points in taum i guess. So you will get sround 8,5-9k dps with 3 dots by tooltip. In pvp scenario with medium armor, resists and ofc you lovely protective trait(imho its useless in terms of damage loss) you will get near 23-25k resists. Lets add some minor protection, cp reduction, may be bloodspawn proc. So the rral dot dps will be abround 2,8k-3,3k, similar to some proc sets in cp-pvp. Its less then any spamable (such as ele weapon/force pulse/bone skull) and way less then any proc skill(say hello to 9k frag and 7k bow)
Next: vigor healing. I think you should invest some points into quick recovery(30-37 may be?) so you can get 1300hps per second+trollking(+-700hps)+my lovely stamsorc surge(+1200hps with hight crit chance)+pots with major vitality (oh god bless). Looks like you can overheal dots right?
Upd: if you still think that smth is wrong you can check out this damage thread and make you own calculation with all you prefereble sources of mitigation: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1

OMG are you for real? Troll king, minor protect, surge AND vitality (for 15s btw) lingers just to survive dots? *** me, at this point lets just slot heavy, impreg and brass because otherwise if they look at me I melt. Btw protective got nerfed, you get only 3.6k resistances from it, which means that your medium stamsorc sits at barely 22k resistances. Moreover, since we're at it, you are saying that the dot deals less damage than a spammable (duh). The only issue that your overly biased comments ignores, is that those dots will tick while someone is hitting you with both spammable, light attacks, bashes and ults. How the *** do you survive that in medium? By praying? Cuz your 12k vigor tt will surely not do the trick, trust me

Ppl that force themselves into dotbuilds will lose standart spamable skills.
Lets calculate your "30k tooltip OP DoT" dps(lets say you are nb sitting at 22k resists)-we will add minor maim from shadow(0,85), 12% from relentless focus(0,88), cp dot dmg reduction(lets say 20% so modifier 0,8), magica dmg reduction(10%, so 0,9 modifier) and 22k resists(0,67 modifier):
30.000*0,85*0,88*0,8*0,9*0,67=10825,056dmg=1086dps. Single dot that stays on you 10 seconds. 3 dots, if im correct will be 3247dps.
Single target spamable(lets say tooltip is 11.000) with absolutly same calculation is 3969dmg=dps.
Now healing: vigor tooltip is 10.000, last for 4 seconds. Lets + 3% for example from siphoning. 10300/2=5150=1287hps.
1287hps+30% pots+9% quick recovery+trollking(700)+leeching strikes(727)=3251hps potentionaly.
3241dot dps<3251 hps.

I'm literally quoting this btw.

Lord-Otto · August 2019

And what is your solution? Just raging and shouting won't get you guys anywhere. Make change suggestions, there is still time until it hits live! Just remember the last PTS patch is off the table, it has to be somewhere between that and now.
So, get to work!

Hexquisite · August 2019

Vigor needs to be 5 seconds. I run a Magplar as my main, and even I agree with this.

I just want to point out for the inexperienced pvp people in this thread, that any small man 2 to 4 people are going to be running complimentry skills and timing them--so one person might run magic dots--or since they are boring 2 people might split the dots up and time it, another will run bleeds and poisons, debuffs, etc. THey will be communicating and timing everything. If they run into another small scale running the same, and of the same experience level it will come down to who called the right target first, and got the jump first- the focused damage will melt people. With DOTs strength on PTS, it would seem that there isn't much room to come back from a mistake. Maybe that is a L2p issue I guess, but sometimes it is just a matter of who got the lag spike. If this small scale runs into 1 person, its all over. 5 seconds on Vigor gives a nice offensive window or getaway tool, but is not overly powerful IMHO.

And if you are a zerg surfer, wait til you see whta the organized ball zergs are going to do.

Durham · August 2019

Davadin wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

SilverPaws wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93 don't bother with @LoreToo... He is zergling that got 2vX by me often No game knowledge there.

I would like to add some salty coment about useless smallscalers, but i guess its agains rules. You know your path.

@ecru give us nice screenshots, so lets take a look. Tooltip is around 30k, with some points in taum i guess. So you will get sround 8,5-9k dps with 3 dots by tooltip. In pvp scenario with medium armor, resists and ofc you lovely protective trait(imho its useless in terms of damage loss) you will get near 23-25k resists. Lets add some minor protection, cp reduction, may be bloodspawn proc. So the rral dot dps will be abround 2,8k-3,3k, similar to some proc sets in cp-pvp. Its less then any spamable (such as ele weapon/force pulse/bone skull) and way less then any proc skill(say hello to 9k frag and 7k bow)
Next: vigor healing. I think you should invest some points into quick recovery(30-37 may be?) so you can get 1300hps per second+trollking(+-700hps)+my lovely stamsorc surge(+1200hps with hight crit chance)+pots with major vitality (oh god bless). Looks like you can overheal dots right?
Upd: if you still think that smth is wrong you can check out this damage thread and make you own calculation with all you prefereble sources of mitigation: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1

OMG are you for real? Troll king, minor protect, surge AND vitality (for 15s btw) lingers just to survive dots? *** me, at this point lets just slot heavy, impreg and brass because otherwise if they look at me I melt. Btw protective got nerfed, you get only 3.6k resistances from it, which means that your medium stamsorc sits at barely 22k resistances. Moreover, since we're at it, you are saying that the dot deals less damage than a spammable (duh). The only issue that your overly biased comments ignores, is that those dots will tick while someone is hitting you with both spammable, light attacks, bashes and ults. How the *** do you survive that in medium? By praying? Cuz your 12k vigor tt will surely not do the trick, trust me

Ppl that force themselves into dotbuilds will lose standart spamable skills.
Lets calculate your "30k tooltip OP DoT" dps(lets say you are nb sitting at 22k resists)-we will add minor maim from shadow(0,85), 12% from relentless focus(0,88), cp dot dmg reduction(lets say 20% so modifier 0,8), magica dmg reduction(10%, so 0,9 modifier) and 22k resists(0,67 modifier):
30.000*0,85*0,88*0,8*0,9*0,67=10825,056dmg=1086dps. Single dot that stays on you 10 seconds. 3 dots, if im correct will be 3247dps.
Single target spamable(lets say tooltip is 11.000) with absolutly same calculation is 3969dmg=dps.
Now healing: vigor tooltip is 10.000, last for 4 seconds. Lets + 3% for example from siphoning. 10300/2=5150=1287hps.
1287hps+30% pots+9% quick recovery+trollking(700)+leeching strikes(727)=3251hps potentionaly.
3241dot dps<3251 hps.
This just conferms that:
a)dotbuild is still not OP
b)stamnb has enough healing
c)nerf is ok and its MORE then balanced.
d)medium armor is totaly fine.
e)devs idea was to force you use healing from different sources snd not from 1 buttom
Sry, but tears around "vigor is not 25k" is smth that shows 99% ppl doesnt know how the game works

Are you actually posting this crap.. let me enlighten you.

Stam Dot Build.
There are some crazy tool tips in here also.. not even going magicka right now...

1. Noxious Breath with debuff high damage
2. Claw high damage
3. Blood craze / master weapon insane damage
4. Carve high damage
5. Viper
6. Sloads.
7. Poisons (2)
8. Armor dot and damage return
9. Basically stay poisoned in this build its low damage
10. Deadly cloak
11. Don't forget Skoria will be proving on cool down with this.. 12k tool tip
11. Leap. 20 k tool tip or two handed that strips armor.
12. Execute the new 400%

Vigor tool tip 15k in 4 secs

3 dots you seriously think 3 dots are a legitimate dot build. Try 8 to 11 ..

Redo math please

yo. leap and execute ain't DoT.

but u did miss Axe bleed.

oh and 2H's Stampede.

So here's my simplified newbie number: Carve: 14k DoT, Nox: 12k DoT, Claw: 14k DoT. Mix up light attacks with my Axe and that's 3 - 5 DoT in ~3 sec.

Im aware that leap is not a dot but if you are at 40-50% range and you cant heal out you in sever trouble !!! Leap Execute and your done... That why I added it... Vigor with dot pressure will to much in this meta to back out of that zone!

Dracane · August 2019

Vigor was insane when PTS started and rapid regeneration is even more insane right now. If they nerf vigor, why do they leave regeneration as it is ? Most magicka classes have burst heals on their own, they do not need strong heal over times on top.

Cure shields already please and make them manageable without stacking and fix burstheals (which was pretty much done it seems) then there is no need for something as extrem as rapid regeneration.

eso_lags · August 2019

Blobsky wrote: »

[qu

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

All that has changed is the skill is a second shorter and costs less, the first of which is a well overdue nerf to an overperforming heal. On my stamblade with darkcloak and vigor I'm so unkillable it's laughable, and that isn't even a stronger healing class.

The vigor need is long needed - the actual issue is the nonsense bring introduced with overperforming dots. Rapid regen needs to be toned down a bit as a hot/dot meta is ugly as hell... But the dots are the real problem.

One second less of vigor is not excessive and just means stamina has to heal at the right times rather than have 4-5k hps with modifiers pouring in on offence through one click

LOL sure vigor is nice with DARK CLOAK. But not everyone is a Night Blade. Vigor then Dark Cloak is awsome but DARK CLOAK is one of the most powerful abilities in the game! Please dont balance vigor with just DARK CLOAK that makes you immune to all DOTS!!

I agree Vigor is strong currently but in the next patch with the increase DOT pressure and increased execute damage Im afraid that Vigor will not hold its on.

I agree with you on DOT and Rapid and I see your point on the 1 sec less with Vigor.

Again, that is the fault of the dots... Nothing else

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

All that has changed is the skill is a second shorter and costs less, the first of which is a well overdue nerf to an overperforming heal. On my stamblade with darkcloak and vigor I'm so unkillable it's laughable, and that isn't even a stronger healing class.

The vigor need is long needed - the actual issue is the nonsense bring introduced with overperforming dots. Rapid regen needs to be toned down a bit as a hot/dot meta is ugly as hell... But the dots are the real problem.

One second less of vigor is not excessive and just means stamina has to heal at the right times rather than have 4-5k hps with modifiers pouring in on offence through one click

Good luck playing a dw stam sorc or a stamplar with that vigor. But you don't play stam so what would you know about it, am I right?

I've got every stam char, they are just too simple to play. Stamplar has purge, that is arguably the best skill whatsoever next patch. Stamsorc has a burstheal and rapid mobility, though admitedly I have no idea how surge will feel

I'm not gonna argue on the easy to play part since imo magsorc and magplar are th easiest classes out there after stamdk, that's just opinions and idgaf about opinions. What I like are facts.

As you said, purge will be amazing next patch because of the *** meta we are going towards, but the cost got drastically increased. It was raised to 5k or something? That's huge considering that we don't have a 40k mag pool, and entropy/soul trap/rending have ridiculously low costs. Moreover, stamplar suffers A LOT in terms of offensive windows. You should know that, magplar has a similar issue. The only difference is that with a stamplar you don't have htd, and if you push too much the window in the wrong moment (say, your rally was just recasted) you might end up dead. You basically end up in a position where 2/3 of the time you should be offensive (3/3 being the 6s duration of potl) you don't have vigor up...in medium...with a 5k purge and no htd. You see the issue now?

Stamsorc having a burst heal is a ridiculous statement, and you know it. Stamsorc doesn't have shields to protect them while casting dd, the heal is okayish but definitely not strong enough to be reliable, and the mobility has no role when the damage is sticked to you under form of a dot. The change to crit surge will surely help, but atm the only way to play a stamsorc in in pirate skelly, snb and heavy damage sets. Next patch it'll be onyl worse for, arguably, one of the worse classes in this game.

The simple solution for that mag pool is to run 15k mag rather than 10k (same as most/all mag have to do for their stampool). Besides, this returns to the point that it is the DOTS that are unbalanced, not the change to vigor

As I said, stamina sorcerer is not one I have any real experience on, but the good ones I know have extremely high incoming healing - I have no idea how much reliance on surge that has

15k mag isnt always possible especially for a class like stam sorc . For me at least I go full damage on stam sorc. In the past, on certain builds, that didnt have to be the case but when everyone is a tank its hard to kill people (people with any sense of the game) if you dont go pretty much full damage. Especially when you dont have certain things that other classes do to burst tankier targets.

But troll king definitely makes the self healing insane. Steed mundus, CP setup. Sometimes very high damage. And keeping vigor up, of course.. It can be multiple different things. In heavy or medium you can still get good healing but you have to sacrifice some damage for it. Thankfully you can run lower sustain because of dark deal, but too low and youll get screwed under high pressure or someone who spams bash. Its a balancing act. Medium stam sorc prob relies more on high damage, kiting/los, and then spamming dark deal.

I agree that dots are an issue but im not convinced about vigor. As things are right now certain classes will always be able to build to have crazy damage and healing but thats a class issue. Not all classes are the same or even similar.

I dont know what the answer is. But what I can say is that I didnt find vigor to be the problem at all. And as a solo player I could never agree with it getting nerfed in any way. It would only make things worse for small scale players in a game that is trying to kill solo/small scale completely..

In every fight where I cant kill someone it isnt vigor thats the issue. Its a tanky mag warden only running vines for a heal but still managing to be unkillable, and deal a ton of damage, by turtleing on their S&B bar with armor master.. Or a magplar. Or a mag sorc with damage shields and a huge pet heal.. Or a stam dk in an identity crisis between a tank and a DD. Or someone stacking easy forms of buffs that shouldnt be easy to get (major/minor protection, etc).. Even magblades and stam wardens with S&B..

Mayrael · August 2019

Durham wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

My tooltip on live server: 12,4k
Tooltip on pts: 10,7k

Glad to see that medium armor got compensated for the nerf to Rally... oh wait...

Meanwhile dots are in the 30k tooltip territory

10k heal over 4 sec
30k dots over 20 sec

did you got the math ?

30k will come from just 1 dot... on my non dot build on test I still bring 40k in dots to you every 10 secs...not counting my spamable... plus my 12k pen + you being off balance + a new 400% execute...

Yeah because bleeds were ok back in the past when one tick could crit for 3-3,5k, but now when magicka gets 2 much weaker dots the sky is falling. Stamina was top dog for very long time which led us to the state where most of us have stam mains, no wonder we have such huge backlash when someone tries to touch their tralala.

Nerftheforums · August 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

My tooltip on live server: 12,4k
Tooltip on pts: 10,7k

Glad to see that medium armor got compensated for the nerf to Rally... oh wait...

Meanwhile dots are in the 30k tooltip territory

10k heal over 4 sec
30k dots over 20 sec

did you got the math ?

30k will come from just 1 dot... on my non dot build on test I still bring 40k in dots to you every 10 secs...not counting my spamable... plus my 12k pen + you being off balance + a new 400% execute...

Yeah because bleeds were ok back in the past when one tick could crit for 3-3,5k, but now when magicka gets 2 much weaker dots the sky is falling. Stamina was top dog for very long time which led us to the state where most of us have stam mains, no wonder we have such huge backlash when someone tries to touch their tralala.

So since stam has access to a broken skill, it makes more sense to you to also give similar broken stuff to magicka instead of nerfing the op skill stam has and actually fixing the problem?

Everything makes a lot of sense here

artal · August 2019

@Mayrael OP part of bleeds was it went through resistances. But don't think that these 2 dots are "much" weaker as you say.
And yea the sky is falling if dmg goes up a lot and healing goes down a lot. Specially for medium armor that already struggles.
I play mag and stam builds, and I was pleased that rapid regen was getting buff (its still bit to strong but lets see), healing ward to. But what they did with stamina is like no thought were put into it. First they remove hot from momentum and buff vigor a lot (should get buffed with those dots introduction) and than they nerfed vigor to much worse state than on live.

I just don't get any reasoning behind it

Vapirko · August 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

My tooltip on live server: 12,4k
Tooltip on pts: 10,7k

Glad to see that medium armor got compensated for the nerf to Rally... oh wait...

Meanwhile dots are in the 30k tooltip territory

10k heal over 4 sec
30k dots over 20 sec

did you got the math ?

30k will come from just 1 dot... on my non dot build on test I still bring 40k in dots to you every 10 secs...not counting my spamable... plus my 12k pen + you being off balance + a new 400% execute...

Yeah because bleeds were ok back in the past when one tick could crit for 3-3,5k, but now when magicka gets 2 much weaker dots the sky is falling. Stamina was top dog for very long time which led us to the state where most of us have stam mains, no wonder we have such huge backlash when someone tries to touch their tralala.

This is such a misunderstanding. SOME stamina classes are top dog for open world 1vX and small scale. That is it. For larger groups and even some small scale and solo play as well as for dueling, magicka has a very strong place even coming out on top. Inexperienced magicka players are just exceptionally good at whining and I think most casuals tend toward magic builds. But the whole stamina is best in general is so wrong. Magicka Templar, Magicka Sorc and Magicka DK are all clearly or very arguably better off than their stamina counterparts.

Blobsky · August 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

My tooltip on live server: 12,4k
Tooltip on pts: 10,7k

Glad to see that medium armor got compensated for the nerf to Rally... oh wait...

Meanwhile dots are in the 30k tooltip territory

10k heal over 4 sec
30k dots over 20 sec

did you got the math ?

30k will come from just 1 dot... on my non dot build on test I still bring 40k in dots to you every 10 secs...not counting my spamable... plus my 12k pen + you being off balance + a new 400% execute...

Yeah because bleeds were ok back in the past when one tick could crit for 3-3,5k, but now when magicka gets 2 much weaker dots the sky is falling. Stamina was top dog for very long time which led us to the state where most of us have stam mains, no wonder we have such huge backlash when someone tries to touch their tralala.

This is such a misunderstanding. SOME stamina classes are top dog for open world 1vX and small scale. That is it. For larger groups and even some small scale and solo play as well as for dueling, magicka has a very strong place even coming out on top. Inexperienced magicka players are just exceptionally good at whining and I think most casuals tend toward magic builds. But the whole stamina is best in general is so wrong. Magicka Templar, Magicka Sorc and Magicka DK are all clearly or very arguably better off than their stamina counterparts.

I have no idea what universe you live in if you think Magicka DK is better than stamina in anything but duels. Stamina DK is probably too dog even over magsorc atm.

I'd also hold stamplar much higher for anything other than spamming bol to panic live, though next patch eclipse is overperforming

Mayrael · August 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

My tooltip on live server: 12,4k
Tooltip on pts: 10,7k

Glad to see that medium armor got compensated for the nerf to Rally... oh wait...

Meanwhile dots are in the 30k tooltip territory

10k heal over 4 sec
30k dots over 20 sec

did you got the math ?

30k will come from just 1 dot... on my non dot build on test I still bring 40k in dots to you every 10 secs...not counting my spamable... plus my 12k pen + you being off balance + a new 400% execute...

Yeah because bleeds were ok back in the past when one tick could crit for 3-3,5k, but now when magicka gets 2 much weaker dots the sky is falling. Stamina was top dog for very long time which led us to the state where most of us have stam mains, no wonder we have such huge backlash when someone tries to touch their tralala.

This is such a misunderstanding. SOME stamina classes are top dog for open world 1vX and small scale. That is it. For larger groups and even some small scale and solo play as well as for dueling, magicka has a very strong place even coming out on top. Inexperienced magicka players are just exceptionally good at whining and I think most casuals tend toward magic builds. But the whole stamina is best in general is so wrong. Magicka Templar, Magicka Sorc and Magicka DK are all clearly or very arguably better off than their stamina counterparts.

Yes you're right, I may a bit exaggerate, especially when it goes to sorc. Templars and DKs are more balanced, it's more about player. I've met real monsters on both sides

We won't talk about who's whining more but IMHO (just my experience) I have been meeting more stamina based toons in PvP during last 1-2 years, I'm not saying it's the only truth, it's just my subjective observation, especially when it goes to small scale/solo players. Magicka ones are usually MagSorcs or supporting temps/DKs. MagWardens and MagBlades are like white ravens, extremely rare.

There are reasons why stamina let's say is more popular when it goes to PvP (except of sorcs and templars). Some of these reasons are gone with 5.1, Vigor is not one of them, because for skilled single/small scalers even 1s less is something to get through, it's not pleasant to get nerfed but it won't stop them from staying on the top of the food chain.

Taking away hot from Momentum is more severe change IMHO and Rally morph should preserve the hot. If we will buff Vigor we will buff heavy also, but with the new shuffle, medium armors can use Rally without being worried about mobility. This way heavy needs to pick between having more heals or being more mobile while medium can have both.

I understand and agree that dots can be serious issue for medium armor users, but overloading vigor is not the way to solve the problem, since it will buff heavy to.

It is possible that these dots are to strong, but I'd prefer to see how it will work first in competitive environment. If it will require adjustments, don't forget about nerfing stamina dots to (bleeds including), no double standards. One thing that should be made is making these dots initial hit dodgeable, which would allow us to survive being dotted by multiple enemies.

akray21 · August 2019

maxjapank wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The changes to vigor are completely acceptable. So funny to see the same Stamina players supporting the nerfs of magicka shields and heals...now going nuts about their own precious vigor. We’ve all be nerfed now. Karma at its finest.

And now you do the same. Quite obviously if devs won't fix current imbalance between RR, Vigor and unavoidable overpowered dots, PVP will be unplayable and corrective actions will be hastily taken to nerf your precious templar, like only class which can both purge those dots by clearly overloaded ability and protect themselves against onslaught combos through another OP ability, which existence looks very strange after wings were ditched for similar effect.

Cry more. I've never asked for anything to be nerfed. I've always just taken changes as they come. Not happy about them, but I made them work. But you Stamina players were relentless this time. So I engaged in your same behavior. Karma at its finest. Take your changes and make them work same as us magicka players.

p.s. If you think templars are going to be so overpowered, then roll one. Grass is always greener, isn't it.

Despite the fact that I want to play stamsorc I will be playing my Templar in PvP because it's going to be the strongest class.

Trian94 · August 2019

Vigor buffs/nerfs are not the main issue. There's a ton of variables that can affect healing and combat in general. major mending/vitality, damage reduction (necromancer), CP etc.

Having vigor as the topic here it's simple to see that if you have, for example, a 15k tooltip a stam DK can push it to 30k while a stamsorc will have to make do with 15k. In cp stam sorc can heal super efficiently with surge cause you can push 50% crit easily but in no cp it's rly bad. And that's one example.

The imbalance of utilizing healing and mitigating damage between classes is the main thing that should get addressed. Sure sorc has streak and can break LoS faster but is it he same with making every attack miss and going invisible. Specifically in the next meta will it make a difference if you streak or not if you have 5+ dots of 30k tooltip on you that you won't be able to outheal with vigor?

It's the access to some stuff that made vigor op and not vigor itself. I'm not saying nerf dk mending or cloak or whatever but there are things that need to be looked at so that next time they buff or nerf an ability that can be accessed by every class (and is core for PvP or PvE) it affects every class at a same degree more or less.

BlackMadara · August 2019

Trian94 wrote: »

Vigor buffs/nerfs are not the main issue. There's a ton of variables that can affect healing and combat in general. major mending/vitality, damage reduction (necromancer), CP etc.

Having vigor as the topic here it's simple to see that if you have, for example, a 15k tooltip a stam DK can push it to 30k while a stamsorc will have to make do with 15k. In cp stam sorc can heal super efficiently with surge cause you can push 50% crit easily but in no cp it's rly bad. And that's one example.

The imbalance of utilizing healing and mitigating damage between classes is the main thing that should get addressed. Sure sorc has streak and can break LoS faster but is it he same with making every attack miss and going invisible. Specifically in the next meta will it make a difference if you streak or not if you have 5+ dots of 30k tooltip on you that you won't be able to outheal with vigor?

It's the access to some stuff that made vigor op and not vigor itself. I'm not saying nerf dk mending or cloak or whatever but there are things that need to be looked at so that next time they buff or nerf an ability that can be accessed by every class (and is core for PvP or PvE) it affects every class at a same degree more or less.

Stam classes will have to use other means of healing and mitigation, alongside vigor. Temps have the new scaling on ritual, sorcs have crit surge and speed, nightblades will utilize cloak, DKs have cauterize and frag shield, and necro has the spirit. Vigor may need to be buffed, but ZoS has added means to offset the increased DoT damage in class and build skill buffs.

One should not be able to out heal all of the damage inflicted by 3 DoTs with one Vigor cast. You can, however, with a vigor cast followed by another defensive skill cast available through class, guild, or weapon.

pieratsos · August 2019

BlackMadara wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Here's a quick build I put together on PTS that should be at least a little viable in pvp. First Screenshot/tooltips are mostly cheese (apprentice mundus, nirn staff, divines gear, mag glyphs), second is all impen, atronarch mundus, prismatic glyphs, skoria instead of grothdarr, etc.

cheese:

(could have been a bit higher with mara instead of witchmothers)

mostly viable:

both are with buffs up/pet out for necropotence buff. this was really easy to do, this gear is really accessible, etc. this is close to what you'll be up against as stam in pvp. also, i could have pushed my max mag higher with inner light on my bar but i thought that was a bit much.

That is a high damage pvp build with 15% increased DoT damage from necro and 66 into thaum. So a build focusing on ranged DoTs that has high DoT damage, with low mitigation.

Also, here are some calcs of the damage these would do vs my mag DK in CP pvp. CPs are 20% less DoT damage and 7% less magic damage. 2975 crit resists (45% crit reduction) and 34.5 spell resistance (light armor, breton, blood spawn proc.) These are averages based on crit rate.

Flame Reach: 581 dps
Entropy: 707 dps
Soul Trap: 727 dps

Against a medium armor target with 17204 spell resistances. Same CP and crit resists.

Flame Reach: 842 dps
Entropy: 1023 dps
Soul Trap: 1052 dps

For comparison to Ele Weapon, a direct damage ability. 10517 tooltip (very similar effective spell damage as referenced build) 20% less direct damage CPs

Mag Dk: 2490
Med armor: 3606

So these DoTs deal at least 3 times less damage per second than the generic spammable. Focusing on DoTs allows an high pressure build that shouldn't be ignored, but these changes do not make them overbearing. Any mechanic, in this game, that is stacked/coordinated by a group is overbearing against a single player.

The only issue I can see is that entropy and soul trap can't seem to be dodged and can be cast at range. Perhaps the damage standards should be adjusted based on range and ease of use, but that is up to ZoS.

PS. Rapid regen should be nerfed and Vigor buffed to some type if happy middle. Resolving should probably heal more than the 7% increase compared to live and rapid just seems out of line with magicka builds having access to burst heals and shields.

So according to ur calculations you can easily do 3k afk DPS to a normal medium armor and 2k+ afk DPS against tanks. Yeah definitely not overbearing at all. Lmao

pieratsos · August 2019

LoreToo wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

SilverPaws wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93 don't bother with @LoreToo... He is zergling that got 2vX by me often No game knowledge there.

I would like to add some salty coment about useless smallscalers, but i guess its agains rules. You know your path.

@ecru give us nice screenshots, so lets take a look. Tooltip is around 30k, with some points in taum i guess. So you will get sround 8,5-9k dps with 3 dots by tooltip. In pvp scenario with medium armor, resists and ofc you lovely protective trait(imho its useless in terms of damage loss) you will get near 23-25k resists. Lets add some minor protection, cp reduction, may be bloodspawn proc. So the rral dot dps will be abround 2,8k-3,3k, similar to some proc sets in cp-pvp. Its less then any spamable (such as ele weapon/force pulse/bone skull) and way less then any proc skill(say hello to 9k frag and 7k bow)
Next: vigor healing. I think you should invest some points into quick recovery(30-37 may be?) so you can get 1300hps per second+trollking(+-700hps)+my lovely stamsorc surge(+1200hps with hight crit chance)+pots with major vitality (oh god bless). Looks like you can overheal dots right?
Upd: if you still think that smth is wrong you can check out this damage thread and make you own calculation with all you prefereble sources of mitigation: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1

OMG are you for real? Troll king, minor protect, surge AND vitality (for 15s btw) lingers just to survive dots? *** me, at this point lets just slot heavy, impreg and brass because otherwise if they look at me I melt. Btw protective got nerfed, you get only 3.6k resistances from it, which means that your medium stamsorc sits at barely 22k resistances. Moreover, since we're at it, you are saying that the dot deals less damage than a spammable (duh). The only issue that your overly biased comments ignores, is that those dots will tick while someone is hitting you with both spammable, light attacks, bashes and ults. How the *** do you survive that in medium? By praying? Cuz your 12k vigor tt will surely not do the trick, trust me

Ppl that force themselves into dotbuilds will lose standart spamable skills.
Lets calculate your "30k tooltip OP DoT" dps(lets say you are nb sitting at 22k resists)-we will add minor maim from shadow(0,85), 12% from relentless focus(0,88), cp dot dmg reduction(lets say 20% so modifier 0,8), magica dmg reduction(10%, so 0,9 modifier) and 22k resists(0,67 modifier):
30.000*0,85*0,88*0,8*0,9*0,67=10825,056dmg=1086dps. Single dot that stays on you 10 seconds. 3 dots, if im correct will be 3247dps.
Single target spamable(lets say tooltip is 11.000) with absolutly same calculation is 3969dmg=dps.
Now healing: vigor tooltip is 10.000, last for 4 seconds. Lets + 3% for example from siphoning. 10300/2=5150=1287hps.
1287hps+30% pots+9% quick recovery+trollking(700)+leeching strikes(727)=3251hps potentionaly.
3241dot dps<3251 hps.
This just conferms that:
a)dotbuild is still not OP
b)stamnb has enough healing
c)nerf is ok and its MORE then balanced.
d)medium armor is totaly fine.
e)devs idea was to force you use healing from different sources snd not from 1 buttom
Sry, but tears around "vigor is not 25k" is smth that shows 99% ppl doesnt know how the game works

The fact that dot dmg is even remotely comparable to spammables that have to be actually spammed to do dmg is enough to understand how stupid the whole situation is.

BlackMadara · August 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Here's a quick build I put together on PTS that should be at least a little viable in pvp. First Screenshot/tooltips are mostly cheese (apprentice mundus, nirn staff, divines gear, mag glyphs), second is all impen, atronarch mundus, prismatic glyphs, skoria instead of grothdarr, etc.

cheese:

(could have been a bit higher with mara instead of witchmothers)

mostly viable:

both are with buffs up/pet out for necropotence buff. this was really easy to do, this gear is really accessible, etc. this is close to what you'll be up against as stam in pvp. also, i could have pushed my max mag higher with inner light on my bar but i thought that was a bit much.

That is a high damage pvp build with 15% increased DoT damage from necro and 66 into thaum. So a build focusing on ranged DoTs that has high DoT damage, with low mitigation.

Also, here are some calcs of the damage these would do vs my mag DK in CP pvp. CPs are 20% less DoT damage and 7% less magic damage. 2975 crit resists (45% crit reduction) and 34.5 spell resistance (light armor, breton, blood spawn proc.) These are averages based on crit rate.

Flame Reach: 581 dps
Entropy: 707 dps
Soul Trap: 727 dps

Against a medium armor target with 17204 spell resistances. Same CP and crit resists.

Flame Reach: 842 dps
Entropy: 1023 dps
Soul Trap: 1052 dps

For comparison to Ele Weapon, a direct damage ability. 10517 tooltip (very similar effective spell damage as referenced build) 20% less direct damage CPs

Mag Dk: 2490
Med armor: 3606

So these DoTs deal at least 3 times less damage per second than the generic spammable. Focusing on DoTs allows an high pressure build that shouldn't be ignored, but these changes do not make them overbearing. Any mechanic, in this game, that is stacked/coordinated by a group is overbearing against a single player.

The only issue I can see is that entropy and soul trap can't seem to be dodged and can be cast at range. Perhaps the damage standards should be adjusted based on range and ease of use, but that is up to ZoS.

PS. Rapid regen should be nerfed and Vigor buffed to some type if happy middle. Resolving should probably heal more than the 7% increase compared to live and rapid just seems out of line with magicka builds having access to burst heals and shields.

So according to ur calculations you can easily do 3k afk DPS to a normal medium armor and 2k+ afk DPS against tanks. Yeah definitely not overbearing at all. Lmao

With a rather high damage build and the use of 3 GCDs. I mentioned that the range and easy of use of the abilities may be too high. These 3 DoTs would still deal less damage than a single target spammable.

So spamming a single target attack would deal more damage at the beginning of combat, for 3 seconds. After DoTs are set, the attacker will have up to 8 seconds of higher damage with DoTs ticking and using a spammable. That is the design of DoTs. Now they actually pose a threat.

You can still set up a high burst damage combo with delayed damage and executes and be effective, but DoTs may be a viable playstyle.

Do not nitpick information. Look at my entire argument.

BlackMadara · August 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

SilverPaws wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93 don't bother with @LoreToo... He is zergling that got 2vX by me often No game knowledge there.

I would like to add some salty coment about useless smallscalers, but i guess its agains rules. You know your path.

@ecru give us nice screenshots, so lets take a look. Tooltip is around 30k, with some points in taum i guess. So you will get sround 8,5-9k dps with 3 dots by tooltip. In pvp scenario with medium armor, resists and ofc you lovely protective trait(imho its useless in terms of damage loss) you will get near 23-25k resists. Lets add some minor protection, cp reduction, may be bloodspawn proc. So the rral dot dps will be abround 2,8k-3,3k, similar to some proc sets in cp-pvp. Its less then any spamable (such as ele weapon/force pulse/bone skull) and way less then any proc skill(say hello to 9k frag and 7k bow)
Next: vigor healing. I think you should invest some points into quick recovery(30-37 may be?) so you can get 1300hps per second+trollking(+-700hps)+my lovely stamsorc surge(+1200hps with hight crit chance)+pots with major vitality (oh god bless). Looks like you can overheal dots right?
Upd: if you still think that smth is wrong you can check out this damage thread and make you own calculation with all you prefereble sources of mitigation: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1

OMG are you for real? Troll king, minor protect, surge AND vitality (for 15s btw) lingers just to survive dots? *** me, at this point lets just slot heavy, impreg and brass because otherwise if they look at me I melt. Btw protective got nerfed, you get only 3.6k resistances from it, which means that your medium stamsorc sits at barely 22k resistances. Moreover, since we're at it, you are saying that the dot deals less damage than a spammable (duh). The only issue that your overly biased comments ignores, is that those dots will tick while someone is hitting you with both spammable, light attacks, bashes and ults. How the *** do you survive that in medium? By praying? Cuz your 12k vigor tt will surely not do the trick, trust me

Ppl that force themselves into dotbuilds will lose standart spamable skills.
Lets calculate your "30k tooltip OP DoT" dps(lets say you are nb sitting at 22k resists)-we will add minor maim from shadow(0,85), 12% from relentless focus(0,88), cp dot dmg reduction(lets say 20% so modifier 0,8), magica dmg reduction(10%, so 0,9 modifier) and 22k resists(0,67 modifier):
30.000*0,85*0,88*0,8*0,9*0,67=10825,056dmg=1086dps. Single dot that stays on you 10 seconds. 3 dots, if im correct will be 3247dps.
Single target spamable(lets say tooltip is 11.000) with absolutly same calculation is 3969dmg=dps.
Now healing: vigor tooltip is 10.000, last for 4 seconds. Lets + 3% for example from siphoning. 10300/2=5150=1287hps.
1287hps+30% pots+9% quick recovery+trollking(700)+leeching strikes(727)=3251hps potentionaly.
3241dot dps<3251 hps.
This just conferms that:
a)dotbuild is still not OP
b)stamnb has enough healing
c)nerf is ok and its MORE then balanced.
d)medium armor is totaly fine.
e)devs idea was to force you use healing from different sources snd not from 1 buttom
Sry, but tears around "vigor is not 25k" is smth that shows 99% ppl doesnt know how the game works

The fact that dot dmg is even remotely comparable to spammables that have to be actually spammed to do dmg is enough to understand how stupid the whole situation is.

3 GCDs to get close. If two people are attacking one another, the one only using a spammable will do more damage until 4 seconds in combat, at which point damage will be equal. Afterword, the DoT user will deal more damage. I would hope that a person not using DoTs would use an actual burst combo, instead of only a spammable.

More variety for playstyles now. That is good

SidraWillowsky · August 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Well, I guess Gilliam decided to eliminate not only magicka rivals to stamblade but stamina ones as well
I mean if you approach in cloak those dots is not a big issue and then some combo with onslaught (surprise, stamblade has best ST direct damage abilities to synergize with new onslaught) and withdraw to shade while opponents have both nerfed defenses and heals. Oh and revealing flare got 3x cost increase, just saying. And camouflaged hunter is guaranteed proc from cloak still. And mutagen removed, while rapid regen will hardly help against burst from cloak. And healing ward nerfed back. And shields nerfed. And bleeds arguably nerfed. And WW nerfed.

I dunno man, my stamblade doesn't feel very strong at all in the PTS...

pieratsos · August 2019

BlackMadara wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Here's a quick build I put together on PTS that should be at least a little viable in pvp. First Screenshot/tooltips are mostly cheese (apprentice mundus, nirn staff, divines gear, mag glyphs), second is all impen, atronarch mundus, prismatic glyphs, skoria instead of grothdarr, etc.

cheese:

(could have been a bit higher with mara instead of witchmothers)

mostly viable:

both are with buffs up/pet out for necropotence buff. this was really easy to do, this gear is really accessible, etc. this is close to what you'll be up against as stam in pvp. also, i could have pushed my max mag higher with inner light on my bar but i thought that was a bit much.

That is a high damage pvp build with 15% increased DoT damage from necro and 66 into thaum. So a build focusing on ranged DoTs that has high DoT damage, with low mitigation.

Also, here are some calcs of the damage these would do vs my mag DK in CP pvp. CPs are 20% less DoT damage and 7% less magic damage. 2975 crit resists (45% crit reduction) and 34.5 spell resistance (light armor, breton, blood spawn proc.) These are averages based on crit rate.

Flame Reach: 581 dps
Entropy: 707 dps
Soul Trap: 727 dps

Against a medium armor target with 17204 spell resistances. Same CP and crit resists.

Flame Reach: 842 dps
Entropy: 1023 dps
Soul Trap: 1052 dps

For comparison to Ele Weapon, a direct damage ability. 10517 tooltip (very similar effective spell damage as referenced build) 20% less direct damage CPs

Mag Dk: 2490
Med armor: 3606

So these DoTs deal at least 3 times less damage per second than the generic spammable. Focusing on DoTs allows an high pressure build that shouldn't be ignored, but these changes do not make them overbearing. Any mechanic, in this game, that is stacked/coordinated by a group is overbearing against a single player.

The only issue I can see is that entropy and soul trap can't seem to be dodged and can be cast at range. Perhaps the damage standards should be adjusted based on range and ease of use, but that is up to ZoS.

PS. Rapid regen should be nerfed and Vigor buffed to some type if happy middle. Resolving should probably heal more than the 7% increase compared to live and rapid just seems out of line with magicka builds having access to burst heals and shields.

So according to ur calculations you can easily do 3k afk DPS to a normal medium armor and 2k+ afk DPS against tanks. Yeah definitely not overbearing at all. Lmao

With a rather high damage build and the use of 3 GCDs. I mentioned that the range and easy of use of the abilities may be too high. These 3 DoTs would still deal less damage than a single target spammable.

So spamming a single target attack would deal more damage at the beginning of combat, for 3 seconds. After DoTs are set, the attacker will have up to 8 seconds of higher damage with DoTs ticking and using a spammable. That is the design of DoTs. Now they actually pose a threat.

You can still set up a high burst damage combo with delayed damage and executes and be effective, but DoTs may be a viable playstyle.

Do not nitpick information. Look at my entire argument.

Again, you are comparing afk dmg to dmg done by actually playing the game. This by itself is beyond stupid and why the game is going to ***. You are defending a state of combat that is dumbed down to a lvl of stupidity.

And that's not even mentioning the fallacies of ur actual comparison you made. You can't compare spammable DPS to dot DPS in PVP. Your comparison basically takes best case scenario fighting a target dummy ignoring the basic principles of pvp being that people actually fight back. Your comparison is basically a cherry picked scenario that doesn't represent even the best case PVP scenario, let alone a normal PVP scenario. Over a normal pvp scenario against people who are not brain dead, 3k dot DPS is probably going to be on par if not more than the entire DPS u are going to put out. So even when looking at the numbers there is no comparison. Its dumb.

But you see there is no reason to get into that cause even the idea of comparing afk dmg to total dmg output is beyond stupid and already throws the entire argument out of the window

Ragnaroek93 · August 2019

Delparis wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

My tooltip on live server: 12,4k
Tooltip on pts: 10,7k

Glad to see that medium armor got compensated for the nerf to Rally... oh wait...

Meanwhile dots are in the 30k tooltip territory

10k heal over 4 sec
30k dots over 20 sec

did you got the math ?

And you're not even trolling. That's what I find wonderful. (Hint: compare the cost/value of Vigor and dots)

Saril_Durzam · August 2019

artal wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

I never call ppl 1v1, only zergpush. And yeah,after 5 years i still dont have IP for city runs->sry, but you made a mistake.
Stam healing reduction is good cause current numbers of healing is too high in combination of troll king+vigor+rally+optional class healing ability(such as surge/mushrooms/gdb ect..). This allows stamina users wear standart medium sets(and save medium armor passives/dmg) and still have good survivability by HoTs.
In general there is different sources of dmg mitigation: mag have shields(count it as +hp bar) and some healing from abilities. Stamina have roll dodge, allowing them to mitigate 90% of incoming damage. And lets be honest-rolling nightblades/dks/wardens are too annoying nowdays. Combine this with good amount of self-healing and decent damage=overpowered spec.

Medium armor that potentially can dodge roll will die like flie from 2 undodgeable dots. Heavy armor in which we are being pushed this patch don't have luxury of dodging and blocking wont do anything vs dots.
On mag char class dot + soul trap and entropy is around 90k tooltip range can you enlighten me how medium armor can survive this? To be honest i have no idea how heavy can survive it vs competent mag player.

GDB for healing? Yea its used in such awesome dk builds, only best of the best dks run that skill. Thank you for opening my eyes i just slot that and voila.

Here is proposition, come on pts on any stam class and ill come with mag dot build and show me how well can you heal with all those skills you mentioned.

@artal

Actually, best defence is to kill fast that LA player; considering it wont use much shields, shouldnt be so hard. Best defence is an offence, drop Vigor and use all your GCDs to nuke him out before the dots drop you down.

BlackMadara · August 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Here's a quick build I put together on PTS that should be at least a little viable in pvp. First Screenshot/tooltips are mostly cheese (apprentice mundus, nirn staff, divines gear, mag glyphs), second is all impen, atronarch mundus, prismatic glyphs, skoria instead of grothdarr, etc.

cheese:

(could have been a bit higher with mara instead of witchmothers)

mostly viable:

both are with buffs up/pet out for necropotence buff. this was really easy to do, this gear is really accessible, etc. this is close to what you'll be up against as stam in pvp. also, i could have pushed my max mag higher with inner light on my bar but i thought that was a bit much.

That is a high damage pvp build with 15% increased DoT damage from necro and 66 into thaum. So a build focusing on ranged DoTs that has high DoT damage, with low mitigation.

Also, here are some calcs of the damage these would do vs my mag DK in CP pvp. CPs are 20% less DoT damage and 7% less magic damage. 2975 crit resists (45% crit reduction) and 34.5 spell resistance (light armor, breton, blood spawn proc.) These are averages based on crit rate.

Flame Reach: 581 dps
Entropy: 707 dps
Soul Trap: 727 dps

Against a medium armor target with 17204 spell resistances. Same CP and crit resists.

Flame Reach: 842 dps
Entropy: 1023 dps
Soul Trap: 1052 dps

For comparison to Ele Weapon, a direct damage ability. 10517 tooltip (very similar effective spell damage as referenced build) 20% less direct damage CPs

Mag Dk: 2490
Med armor: 3606

So these DoTs deal at least 3 times less damage per second than the generic spammable. Focusing on DoTs allows an high pressure build that shouldn't be ignored, but these changes do not make them overbearing. Any mechanic, in this game, that is stacked/coordinated by a group is overbearing against a single player.

The only issue I can see is that entropy and soul trap can't seem to be dodged and can be cast at range. Perhaps the damage standards should be adjusted based on range and ease of use, but that is up to ZoS.

PS. Rapid regen should be nerfed and Vigor buffed to some type if happy middle. Resolving should probably heal more than the 7% increase compared to live and rapid just seems out of line with magicka builds having access to burst heals and shields.

So according to ur calculations you can easily do 3k afk DPS to a normal medium armor and 2k+ afk DPS against tanks. Yeah definitely not overbearing at all. Lmao

With a rather high damage build and the use of 3 GCDs. I mentioned that the range and easy of use of the abilities may be too high. These 3 DoTs would still deal less damage than a single target spammable.

So spamming a single target attack would deal more damage at the beginning of combat, for 3 seconds. After DoTs are set, the attacker will have up to 8 seconds of higher damage with DoTs ticking and using a spammable. That is the design of DoTs. Now they actually pose a threat.

You can still set up a high burst damage combo with delayed damage and executes and be effective, but DoTs may be a viable playstyle.

Do not nitpick information. Look at my entire argument.

Again, you are comparing afk dmg to dmg done by actually playing the game. This by itself is beyond stupid and why the game is going to ***. You are defending a state of combat that is dumbed down to a lvl of stupidity.

And that's not even mentioning the fallacies of ur actual comparison you made. You can't compare spammable DPS to dot DPS in PVP. Your comparison basically takes best case scenario fighting a target dummy ignoring the basic principles of pvp being that people actually fight back. Your comparison is basically a cherry picked scenario that doesn't represent even the best case PVP scenario, let alone a normal PVP scenario. Over a normal pvp scenario against people who are not brain dead, 3k dot DPS is probably going to be on par if not more than the entire DPS u are going to put out. So even when looking at the numbers there is no comparison. Its dumb.

But you see there is no reason to get into that cause even the idea of comparing afk dmg to total dmg output is beyond stupid and already throws the entire argument out of the window

You're scenario assumes a player just stands there as the DoT user is casting. The other player should also be attacking, defending, etc.

The build linked above is a glass cannon necromancer with CP stacked into DoT damage. The single target DoT buffs simply make the competitive. Nobody decent is going to die to one player using DoTs.

When multiple players are involved, almost every mechanic in this game can be overpowering.

Vapirko · August 2019

Blobsky wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

My tooltip on live server: 12,4k
Tooltip on pts: 10,7k

Glad to see that medium armor got compensated for the nerf to Rally... oh wait...

Meanwhile dots are in the 30k tooltip territory

10k heal over 4 sec
30k dots over 20 sec

did you got the math ?

30k will come from just 1 dot... on my non dot build on test I still bring 40k in dots to you every 10 secs...not counting my spamable... plus my 12k pen + you being off balance + a new 400% execute...

Yeah because bleeds were ok back in the past when one tick could crit for 3-3,5k, but now when magicka gets 2 much weaker dots the sky is falling. Stamina was top dog for very long time which led us to the state where most of us have stam mains, no wonder we have such huge backlash when someone tries to touch their tralala.

This is such a misunderstanding. SOME stamina classes are top dog for open world 1vX and small scale. That is it. For larger groups and even some small scale and solo play as well as for dueling, magicka has a very strong place even coming out on top. Inexperienced magicka players are just exceptionally good at whining and I think most casuals tend toward magic builds. But the whole stamina is best in general is so wrong. Magicka Templar, Magicka Sorc and Magicka DK are all clearly or very arguably better off than their stamina counterparts.

I have no idea what universe you live in if you think Magicka DK is better than stamina in anything but duels. Stamina DK is probably too dog even over magsorc atm.

I'd also hold stamplar much higher for anything other than spamming bol to panic live, though next patch eclipse is overperforming

Stamina DK might be OP a bit rn but ONLY because of major mending. Otherwise they’re boring as hell and magicka DK has far more utility and fun build options. Either way it’s still silly to just say that Stamina is top dog hands down. But even you have to admit that mag sorc might be as good or better than any class for PvP. And right there the argument that stam is just better goes out the window.

As for Stamplar they have to sacrifice way too much to even come close to other classes. I mean we get one class debuff and it’s minor. Enough said. Stamplars don’t need a lot of help because what they have is very good, but imo in an equally matched fight a magplar shouldn’t lose to a Stamplar and honestly I’d put Stamplars as losing to most classes simply because they have access to almost no debuffs and no proactive defense and unlike magplars don’t have the class heals to stand in one place and soak up damage. On top of that build options are very limited due to the fact that we lack debuffs (and now we’re losing ravager) and their rotation is a one trick pony. With this upcoming patch I’m almost certain stamina templar will be the worst class.

Blobsky · August 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

My tooltip on live server: 12,4k
Tooltip on pts: 10,7k

Glad to see that medium armor got compensated for the nerf to Rally... oh wait...

Meanwhile dots are in the 30k tooltip territory

10k heal over 4 sec
30k dots over 20 sec

did you got the math ?

30k will come from just 1 dot... on my non dot build on test I still bring 40k in dots to you every 10 secs...not counting my spamable... plus my 12k pen + you being off balance + a new 400% execute...

Yeah because bleeds were ok back in the past when one tick could crit for 3-3,5k, but now when magicka gets 2 much weaker dots the sky is falling. Stamina was top dog for very long time which led us to the state where most of us have stam mains, no wonder we have such huge backlash when someone tries to touch their tralala.

This is such a misunderstanding. SOME stamina classes are top dog for open world 1vX and small scale. That is it. For larger groups and even some small scale and solo play as well as for dueling, magicka has a very strong place even coming out on top. Inexperienced magicka players are just exceptionally good at whining and I think most casuals tend toward magic builds. But the whole stamina is best in general is so wrong. Magicka Templar, Magicka Sorc and Magicka DK are all clearly or very arguably better off than their stamina counterparts.

I have no idea what universe you live in if you think Magicka DK is better than stamina in anything but duels. Stamina DK is probably too dog even over magsorc atm.

I'd also hold stamplar much higher for anything other than spamming bol to panic live, though next patch eclipse is overperforming

Stamina DK might be OP a bit rn but ONLY because of major mending. Otherwise they’re boring as hell and magicka DK has far more utility and fun build options. Either way it’s still silly to just say that Stamina is top dog hands down. But even you have to admit that mag sorc might be as good or better than any class for PvP. And right there the argument that stam is just better goes out the window.

As for Stamplar they have to sacrifice way too much to even come close to other classes. I mean we get one class debuff and it’s minor. Enough said. Stamplars don’t need a lot of help because what they have is very good, but imo in an equally matched fight a magplar shouldn’t lose to a Stamplar and honestly I’d put Stamplars as losing to most classes simply because they have access to almost no debuffs and no proactive defense and unlike magplars don’t have the class heals to stand in one place and soak up damage. On top of that build options are very limited due to the fact that we lack debuffs (and now we’re losing ravager) and their rotation is a one trick pony. With this upcoming patch I’m almost certain stamina templar will be the worst class.

Except magDK does have that major mending, even if that is what makes them best.

I already mentioned magsorc being the competing class and agree totally.

A 1v1 is not a test of skill. Open world solo / bgs id prefer a stamplar personally, but each to their own

evoniee · August 2019

the single target dot change would be nuts for both pve and pvp, they should try test each heal in real environment.

im ok with momentum hot removed, but vigor heal compared to the buffed dots is a joke

either adjust the buffed dots, or adjust vigor.

pieratsos · August 2019

BlackMadara wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Here's a quick build I put together on PTS that should be at least a little viable in pvp. First Screenshot/tooltips are mostly cheese (apprentice mundus, nirn staff, divines gear, mag glyphs), second is all impen, atronarch mundus, prismatic glyphs, skoria instead of grothdarr, etc.

cheese:

(could have been a bit higher with mara instead of witchmothers)

mostly viable:

both are with buffs up/pet out for necropotence buff. this was really easy to do, this gear is really accessible, etc. this is close to what you'll be up against as stam in pvp. also, i could have pushed my max mag higher with inner light on my bar but i thought that was a bit much.

That is a high damage pvp build with 15% increased DoT damage from necro and 66 into thaum. So a build focusing on ranged DoTs that has high DoT damage, with low mitigation.

Also, here are some calcs of the damage these would do vs my mag DK in CP pvp. CPs are 20% less DoT damage and 7% less magic damage. 2975 crit resists (45% crit reduction) and 34.5 spell resistance (light armor, breton, blood spawn proc.) These are averages based on crit rate.

Flame Reach: 581 dps
Entropy: 707 dps
Soul Trap: 727 dps

Against a medium armor target with 17204 spell resistances. Same CP and crit resists.

Flame Reach: 842 dps
Entropy: 1023 dps
Soul Trap: 1052 dps

For comparison to Ele Weapon, a direct damage ability. 10517 tooltip (very similar effective spell damage as referenced build) 20% less direct damage CPs

Mag Dk: 2490
Med armor: 3606

So these DoTs deal at least 3 times less damage per second than the generic spammable. Focusing on DoTs allows an high pressure build that shouldn't be ignored, but these changes do not make them overbearing. Any mechanic, in this game, that is stacked/coordinated by a group is overbearing against a single player.

The only issue I can see is that entropy and soul trap can't seem to be dodged and can be cast at range. Perhaps the damage standards should be adjusted based on range and ease of use, but that is up to ZoS.

PS. Rapid regen should be nerfed and Vigor buffed to some type if happy middle. Resolving should probably heal more than the 7% increase compared to live and rapid just seems out of line with magicka builds having access to burst heals and shields.

So according to ur calculations you can easily do 3k afk DPS to a normal medium armor and 2k+ afk DPS against tanks. Yeah definitely not overbearing at all. Lmao

With a rather high damage build and the use of 3 GCDs. I mentioned that the range and easy of use of the abilities may be too high. These 3 DoTs would still deal less damage than a single target spammable.

So spamming a single target attack would deal more damage at the beginning of combat, for 3 seconds. After DoTs are set, the attacker will have up to 8 seconds of higher damage with DoTs ticking and using a spammable. That is the design of DoTs. Now they actually pose a threat.

You can still set up a high burst damage combo with delayed damage and executes and be effective, but DoTs may be a viable playstyle.

Do not nitpick information. Look at my entire argument.

Again, you are comparing afk dmg to dmg done by actually playing the game. This by itself is beyond stupid and why the game is going to ***. You are defending a state of combat that is dumbed down to a lvl of stupidity.

And that's not even mentioning the fallacies of ur actual comparison you made. You can't compare spammable DPS to dot DPS in PVP. Your comparison basically takes best case scenario fighting a target dummy ignoring the basic principles of pvp being that people actually fight back. Your comparison is basically a cherry picked scenario that doesn't represent even the best case PVP scenario, let alone a normal PVP scenario. Over a normal pvp scenario against people who are not brain dead, 3k dot DPS is probably going to be on par if not more than the entire DPS u are going to put out. So even when looking at the numbers there is no comparison. Its dumb.

But you see there is no reason to get into that cause even the idea of comparing afk dmg to total dmg output is beyond stupid and already throws the entire argument out of the window

You're scenario assumes a player just stands there as the DoT user is casting. The other player should also be attacking, defending, etc.

The build linked above is a glass cannon necromancer with CP stacked into DoT damage. The single target DoT buffs simply make the competitive. Nobody decent is going to die to one player using DoTs.

When multiple players are involved, almost every mechanic in this game can be overpowering.

From what I've seen from the pics above it's just a normal magicka pvp build but that's not even the point.

My scenario doesn't assume anything. Dots are applied once and last for 12 secs. Some are even undodgeable. You also can't block them afaik. Stop comparing their appliance with the appliance of spammables. It's day and night difference. It's dumb. You are not doing urself any favor.

The numbers are there and anyone who understands PVP can see how out of control those numbers are. 3k DPS from 3 generic dots without the need of sustain, planning ur attacks etc. That's probably more than ur entire DPS output. Enough said. And you can get more dots if you want pushing those numbers higher.

You see it's not about mechanics being overbearing when being outnumbered. This is what you don't get. It's not about dying in an outnumbered situation. It's about the fight itself. When you get to a point when 2-3 people can just press 2 buttons and they melt anyone in front of them then you have dumbed ur game down to a lvl of stupidity. You are throwing player skill out of the game. This is what you are defending. You are defending the direction of combat which has been slowly killing PVP every single patch.

Vapirko · August 2019

Blobsky wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

My tooltip on live server: 12,4k
Tooltip on pts: 10,7k

Glad to see that medium armor got compensated for the nerf to Rally... oh wait...

Meanwhile dots are in the 30k tooltip territory

10k heal over 4 sec
30k dots over 20 sec

did you got the math ?

30k will come from just 1 dot... on my non dot build on test I still bring 40k in dots to you every 10 secs...not counting my spamable... plus my 12k pen + you being off balance + a new 400% execute...

Yeah because bleeds were ok back in the past when one tick could crit for 3-3,5k, but now when magicka gets 2 much weaker dots the sky is falling. Stamina was top dog for very long time which led us to the state where most of us have stam mains, no wonder we have such huge backlash when someone tries to touch their tralala.

This is such a misunderstanding. SOME stamina classes are top dog for open world 1vX and small scale. That is it. For larger groups and even some small scale and solo play as well as for dueling, magicka has a very strong place even coming out on top. Inexperienced magicka players are just exceptionally good at whining and I think most casuals tend toward magic builds. But the whole stamina is best in general is so wrong. Magicka Templar, Magicka Sorc and Magicka DK are all clearly or very arguably better off than their stamina counterparts.

I have no idea what universe you live in if you think Magicka DK is better than stamina in anything but duels. Stamina DK is probably too dog even over magsorc atm.

I'd also hold stamplar much higher for anything other than spamming bol to panic live, though next patch eclipse is overperforming

Stamina DK might be OP a bit rn but ONLY because of major mending. Otherwise they’re boring as hell and magicka DK has far more utility and fun build options. Either way it’s still silly to just say that Stamina is top dog hands down. But even you have to admit that mag sorc might be as good or better than any class for PvP. And right there the argument that stam is just better goes out the window.

As for Stamplar they have to sacrifice way too much to even come close to other classes. I mean we get one class debuff and it’s minor. Enough said. Stamplars don’t need a lot of help because what they have is very good, but imo in an equally matched fight a magplar shouldn’t lose to a Stamplar and honestly I’d put Stamplars as losing to most classes simply because they have access to almost no debuffs and no proactive defense and unlike magplars don’t have the class heals to stand in one place and soak up damage. On top of that build options are very limited due to the fact that we lack debuffs (and now we’re losing ravager) and their rotation is a one trick pony. With this upcoming patch I’m almost certain stamina templar will be the worst class.

Except magDK does have that major mending, even if that is what makes them best.

I already mentioned magsorc being the competing class and agree totally.

A 1v1 is not a test of skill. Open world solo / bgs id prefer a stamplar personally, but each to their own

Agreed, as I said originally stamina is generally better/more forgiving when it comes to 1vX or small scale PvP. I just like to make the distinction between saying stamina is best hands down and the fact that this isn’t really true. Imo those kinds of statements are what leads to real harm when it comes to blanket nerfs.

Trian94 · August 2019

BlackMadara wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

Vigor buffs/nerfs are not the main issue. There's a ton of variables that can affect healing and combat in general. major mending/vitality, damage reduction (necromancer), CP etc.

Having vigor as the topic here it's simple to see that if you have, for example, a 15k tooltip a stam DK can push it to 30k while a stamsorc will have to make do with 15k. In cp stam sorc can heal super efficiently with surge cause you can push 50% crit easily but in no cp it's rly bad. And that's one example.

The imbalance of utilizing healing and mitigating damage between classes is the main thing that should get addressed. Sure sorc has streak and can break LoS faster but is it he same with making every attack miss and going invisible. Specifically in the next meta will it make a difference if you streak or not if you have 5+ dots of 30k tooltip on you that you won't be able to outheal with vigor?

It's the access to some stuff that made vigor op and not vigor itself. I'm not saying nerf dk mending or cloak or whatever but there are things that need to be looked at so that next time they buff or nerf an ability that can be accessed by every class (and is core for PvP or PvE) it affects every class at a same degree more or less.

Stam classes will have to use other means of healing and mitigation, alongside vigor. Temps have the new scaling on ritual, sorcs have crit surge and speed, nightblades will utilize cloak, DKs have cauterize and frag shield, and necro has the spirit. Vigor may need to be buffed, but ZoS has added means to offset the increased DoT damage in class and build skill buffs.

One should not be able to out heal all of the damage inflicted by 3 DoTs with one Vigor cast. You can, however, with a vigor cast followed by another defensive skill cast available through class, guild, or weapon.

Wake up call. Them classes do so and will continue to do so. Who said that you need 1 vigor cast. They will keep reapplying dots and you'll keep casting vigor and you won't be able to outheal the incoming damage of multiple 30k dots plus direct attacks unless you can mitigate them completely.

The design of dots is to chisel one's hp as an assisting form of damage to direct attacks. Rally is meant to counter burst damage and vigor is meant to counter bleeding and give offensive windows. Right now dots just leave you dry.

Whoever doesn't have healing buffs, cleanse or a decent form of damage reduction/mitigation is probably gimped in this patch. At least in no cp PvP. Which is an imbalance in the class system and not in vigor itself. Thank god that rally is more consistent now.

I just hope I'm wrong regarding all of this.