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How about one easier, "base-game version II"-level dungeon per dungeon DLC?
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EpicRekkoning✭✭✭The main problem with DLCs is the gap between normal and vet is so extreme that you can't learn the mechanics in normal to prepare for the vet dungeon. ZOS has to create difficult dungeons to keep the top tier players interested and I believe the power creep is a main reason for a lot of the one shot mechanics in the game.
Here's the problem in my opinion, people want more balance in these dungeons, but to do so, I think you have to look at the combat system, which ZOS is working on. However, when ZOS does this, everyone yells because they nerf this or they're taking away that. There's got to be some give and take. Personally, I think for ZOS to find balance again, they will need to cut the meta dps way back, back to 2-3 years ago when 25-30k was top. If they do that, then they'll have to reevaluate all of the dungeons and adjust their mechanics to meet the new dps. Everyone, don't shoot me for saying that, but I do believe in order to better balance the dungeons, they need to shorten the gap between the average player and the elite player.
I want to add that one way you could do this is to put soft or hard caps on dps. Every other aspect of the game has soft and hard caps, so why not dps? They could put the cap on unbuffed weapon/spell damage, that way buff utilities are still desired, and reduce the impact max stats have on damage abilities. It may open up doors for more dps type builds, other than the current glass cannon build. Just an idea...Edited by EpicRekkoning on August 10, 2019 12:29AM0 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That may be true, @EpicRekkoning, but there’s another more sinister side that isn’t anything to do with ZOS.
It’s the part where players don’t want to take 5 minutes to learn mechanics ... either online or with their more experienced group mates.
That’s why we get this so called “gap” in executing DLC content.
Players don’t want to progress ... and ask for less challenging content (often without a change in rewards). The end product of all that are in various whine forum-threads. Not this thread per se, but especially where players complain about DLC Dungeons being in the random Vet pool.
Edited by Taleof2Cities on August 10, 2019 12:44AM1 -
EpicRekkoning✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »
It’s the part where players don’t want to take 5 minutes to learn mechanics ... either online or with their more experienced group mates.
I completely agree with you on this!0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »These dungeons are the only challenging content we get all year. The overwhelming amount of content that gets released in the year is easy solo content. If ZOS took dungeons away, endgame players would literally have nothing left to do.
All people are asking is for a greater variety of dungeon modes, to cater for all situations.
There will always be high end players who thrive on hardcore dungeon mode, just as there will always be soloers and casuals who need their own mode to be able to even do the majority of dungeons. And then there is normal/vet mode for players who fall somewhere in between.
No one is suggesting that your challenging content should be compromised in any way.
That's kind of exactly what OP suggested:I want to see what people would think if ESO's designers decided to put one "base-game version II"-level dungeon in each DLC pack instead of 2 very hard ones.0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭there are other ways to do things. The mechanics model itself is where the failure lies since its based off the trial model it has about the same success.
Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »always imagined direfrost keep to get a Version II eventually
Behind that other door up the stairs behind the 3 bosses at the campfire.
Or maybe a VII path xwhere you explore a gigantic icy cavern underneath it
@Tipsy, Finn talked about this when we interviewed him for Wrathstone. Basically, Direfrost was originally much longer. There was an entire additional wing of the dungeon that was cut because there was simply too much. The various dungeons were designed to have hooks for future story content, but that doesn't mean Direfrost 2 was already written and ready to go.
Oh cool ,hope one day when the time comes ,we get to see the rest of what is hidden in,or under direfrost heep
I doubt we will. I agree, it'd be cool, but development has moved towards following up existing stories in new environments. So, Depths of Malatar is a followup to Volenfell, for example.
I think the original plan was to have normal and vet versions of each dungeons, and I kinda suspect that there was a "Nightmare" mode version planned (or at least thought about) (based on the writing of some of the vet dungeons.) But, every time I talked to members of the dev team, the response I've gotten has been that ESO has radically changed over the last five years, and revisiting old environments isn't on the menu. So, I expect we'll see a continuation of the stories, but not a rehash of the old environments. Which I can get behind that. If we're going to get a new frozen castle up in the mountains as a dungeon, I'd rather it be someplace totally new, rather than running through a map I've completed hundreds of times with a few new doors.0 -
Tipsy✭✭✭I like the idea of finding a map in other passage of direfrost keep,
which leads to a new dungeon unlock.But dunno.
I think totally putting old areas aside is a mistake too
Otherwise nothing connects,you just have a bunch of stories that may be cool on their own
but have no "grounding in the world itself.While not all future content should refer to old content
Sometimes it is good to have a whole new story. In the end though,I believe a mix is still the best;
of both "total new stories" and "stories that have some anchor point in old content or refer to it" The continuation of the story in a new dungeon is cool .And I gues that qualifies as a dungeon with anchor point in old content too. But not sure its for the best.
For dungeons, I think I quite like the idea of a total new dungeon like "Arcwind point" 5m with the freeze/campfire mechanics maybe
Exploring an ancient nordic Temple,rather than a covered dungeon.(That I liked about falkreath hold & March of sacrifices
,that they were a mix of overworld/dungeon or only overworld.)
But maybe they could go for a complete different dungeon setup;where the endgoal is not to kill a final boss.
Instead the goal is for one party member to stay alive longer than any mob on the map.
Some kind of survival mode dungeon without a real linear path.Ofcourse ressing would be disabled in this mode
And then what would the roll be for players who died? Maybe they can influence some of the freezing winds in order to try and help ally(ies)alive to survive longer than the mobs
Edited by Tipsy on August 10, 2019 11:08AMhttps://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462527/champion-of-the-gods-deadra-worship-cp-to-next-level
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/464219/out-of-combat-personality-mood-actionbar
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279458/content-packs-for-organizing-guild-events
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/276626/suggestion-alliance-specific-justice-system-revisit-the-innocent-npc-label0 -
Raisin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭EpicRekkoning wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »
It’s the part where players don’t want to take 5 minutes to learn mechanics ... either online or with their more experienced group mates.
I completely agree with you on this!
While I do agree, I also think ESO is very lash about teaching. Yes I appreciate smart game design (introducing mechanics through mobs, some NPC cues) much more than in your face explanations...
But maybe for first timers, dungeons should have something similar. Something that appeals to the casual crowd by being part of the quest -- so basically more in your face explanations from NPCs rather than the cues. ***, maybe have an NPCs run ahead and visually demonstrate the mechanic then.
All of this has to be optional of course.1 -
vesselwiththepestle✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've done all vet dlc dungeons and I've done flawless conquerer on stamina dps. 85k dps on raid dummy even with non-meta gear. Still I'd like to have some easier dlc dungeons, just to chill and relax while doing some NEW dungeon which I haven't done 1000 times.
And no, doing normal dungeons is NOT an alternative.
Players are leaving dlc dungeons even on normal, while others are bored to death by them! At one time I was with an u50 doing random normals and got into some dlc dungeon and I got kicked because players thought I couldn't tank it. (Funny thing, I tanked it one the same charakter that day before because it was pledge. Funny thing 2, there was a portal, so they had already lost at least one tank. Probably the players didn't know mechanics.) Often you have to TYPE mechanics into group chat because players don't know mechanics and you'll have to PRAY players are reading group chat. That's NOT FUN.
Also I think difficulty isn't a fixed thing. When you look at base game dungeons, they are all differently. Even the No 1 ones. Spindleclutch 1 hm is actually hard for many players, much harder than Vaults of Madness, which *should* be harder, but it isn't. Because Spindleclutch 1 has those 1-shot-mechanics (2 one-shots and one mechanic which needs good heal) and many players seem to have problems to see when the boss targets them and they have to dodge roll. (On max cp you can survive the one shot mechanic, though.)
So I think there is a place for difficulty somewhere between Banished Cells 2 and Falkreath Hold and I think in that general area of difficulty we could use one or two new dlc dungeons.
I honestly don't need anymore like MoS hm or SC hm, which I can do only with a hand full of players in my social guild.1000+ CP
PC/EU Ravenwatch Daggerfall Covenant
Give me my wings back!2 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭do people even buy them anymore?
Eso contracted "trial-itis" otherwise known as raid culture some time ago and it appears terminal. Raid culture requires everything to conform to it.
dungeons have to become more like trials, which they did
embracing of questionable "mechanics" like weaving even though its clearly gamebreaking.
group make up changes to follow the most efficient path like getting rid of healers (mechanic skipping)
in the end the madness is all about asking for more and more mechanics and then being able to skip or minimize them.
I.e exclusive content for a very small proportion of the players.
now that the diagnosis is made, feel free to do something zos. Whats the worst that can happen? Youll make some money?
Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
EpicRekkoning✭✭✭EpicRekkoning wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »
It’s the part where players don’t want to take 5 minutes to learn mechanics ... either online or with their more experienced group mates.
I completely agree with you on this!
While I do agree, I also think ESO is very lash about teaching. Yes I appreciate smart game design (introducing mechanics through mobs, some NPC cues) much more than in your face explanations...
But maybe for first timers, dungeons should have something similar. Something that appeals to the casual crowd by being part of the quest -- so basically more in your face explanations from NPCs rather than the cues. ***, maybe have an NPCs run ahead and visually demonstrate the mechanic then.
All of this has to be optional of course.
I also agree with this and it goes back to my first point where the difficulty discrepancy between normal and vet is too much. Mid tier players can go into a normal dungeon and blow through it without having to learn the mechanics. Vet dlc you have to run the mechanics to complete. So if you don't learn from normal dungeons, than you have to struggle through vet to learn them.
There is this element of players not wanting to take the extra time to learn mechanics too. I've been in countless dungeons with a group of friends trying to teach/tell players about mechanics and the player has no desire to hop into group chat to listen. I know not everyone is like that, but many are.1 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭vesselwiththepestle wrote: »I've done all vet dlc dungeons and I've done flawless conquerer on stamina dps. 85k dps on raid dummy even with non-meta gear. Still I'd like to have some easier dlc dungeons, just to chill and relax while doing some NEW dungeon which I haven't done 1000 times.
And no, doing normal dungeons is NOT an alternative.
Players are leaving dlc dungeons even on normal, while others are bored to death by them! At one time I was with an u50 doing random normals and got into some dlc dungeon and I got kicked because players thought I couldn't tank it. (Funny thing, I tanked it one the same charakter that day before because it was pledge. Funny thing 2, there was a portal, so they had already lost at least one tank. Probably the players didn't know mechanics.) Often you have to TYPE mechanics into group chat because players don't know mechanics and you'll have to PRAY players are reading group chat. That's NOT FUN.
Also I think difficulty isn't a fixed thing. When you look at base game dungeons, they are all differently. Even the No 1 ones. Spindleclutch 1 hm is actually hard for many players, much harder than Vaults of Madness, which *should* be harder, but it isn't. Because Spindleclutch 1 has those 1-shot-mechanics (2 one-shots and one mechanic which needs good heal) and many players seem to have problems to see when the boss targets them and they have to dodge roll. (On max cp you can survive the one shot mechanic, though.)
So I think there is a place for difficulty somewhere between Banished Cells 2 and Falkreath Hold and I think in that general area of difficulty we could use one or two new dlc dungeons.
I honestly don't need anymore like MoS hm or SC hm, which I can do only with a hand full of players in my social guild.
You said it perfectly.
People are getting too hung up on the specifics of my suggested implementation as if it meant no more hard content.
The implementation is just a detail. The main thing is we need more medium-difficulty stuff.
"there is a place for difficulty somewhere between Banished Cells 2 and Falkreath Hold" <- this is EXACTLY what i meant.
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Vajrak✭✭✭Could try to enforce a progressive scaling behind the scenes, similar to how different dungeons unlock at different levels, only unlock the vet variants not by level/CP, but by completion of the prior one on Vet and/or HM, so that you only ever get blind PuG up to the limit of your capability.
Not a perfect solution obviously, but a potential one.1