Update 23 Healer changes: PvP vs. endgame PvE balancing

Glory · July 2019

Completely agree that PvP and PvE healing are very different. It doesn't seem like these changes are directly related to PvP this time though?

code65536 wrote: »

What we have in Update 23 is the gutting of the backbone of the healer's toolkit for sustained multi-person healing--Grand Healing and Energy Orbs account for anywhere from 50-75% of a healer's output in trials. And at the same time, stamina self-healing was buffed: Resolving Vigor received a 55% increase in potency. It's hard to understate what this means for the role of the healer in this game.

Isn't it possible that these two skills are up to 75% of a healer's efficiency the reason they're being changed? I'm not trying to say that there may need to be balancing to make healers still able to complete content (for harder trials, etc.), but this seems similar to how we've seen nerfs in the past to skills that carry PvE DPS.

Minno · July 2019

Lol at pve asking for harder content but gets angry when healing takes a Nerf.

Most of these changes were about reducing redundancy. Some aspects overperforming in both areas.

code65536 · July 2019

Minno wrote: »

Lol at pve asking for harder content but gets angry when healing takes a Nerf.

Most of these changes were about reducing redundancy. Some aspects overperforming in both areas.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. You haven't spent hours wiping to and diagnosing the kinds of heal checks that we're talking about. I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with the subject before making more posts that reveal how little you understand.

Sanguinor2 · July 2019

Minno wrote: »

Lol at pve asking for harder content but gets angry when healing takes a Nerf.

Most of these changes were about reducing redundancy. Some aspects overperforming in both areas.

The People asking for harder Content were asking for harder overland and questing, I can assure you that 90% Minimum of the People crying in that really Long thread havent gotten all vet hm Trials cleared.

Minno · July 2019

code65536 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lol at pve asking for harder content but gets angry when healing takes a Nerf.

Most of these changes were about reducing redundancy. Some aspects overperforming in both areas.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. You haven't spent hours wiping to and diagnosing the kinds of heal checks that we're talking about. I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with the subject before making more posts that reveal how little you understand.

Then don't suggest PvP/pve need to be separate.

josh.lackey_ESO · July 2019

Please don't blame all the PvP'ers. I play almost exclusively PvP and I hate these changes. They are majorly unbalanced towards certain stamina playstyles. Notice Vigor is buffed as a self-heal by almost double, but most magicka soruces of defense were severely nerfed, both shields and healing. Magicka was already underperforming in PvP. This is a really bad patch.

Durham wrote: »

Its not about balance its about performance. Healing springs uses a ton of server resouces compared to other abilites.

People keep saying this, but what do you base this assertion on? It seems like someone just pulled it out of their ass, and everyone who wants to see healing nerfed repeats it as the gospel. Healing Springs is not any different than spamming any other AoE.

MLGProPlayer · July 2019

Wheeler was the former head of PvP balance. Not sure what people expected.

He hasn't made a single change yet with PvE in mind.

Not that he's good at balancing PvP either, but his decisions very clearly have a PvP orientation.

karekiz · July 2019

Balancing for PvP is always a mistake unless the vast majority of your playerbase is PvP.

Based on type of content released it doesn't seem to be that way.

Before PvPer comes in: No I didn't say NEVER balance PvP, but it shouldn't be enough to change a core ROLE or CLASS in PvE. PvP has and always will be a mini game

This ain't DAOC, which ironically......balanced seperate for PvE and PvP and is regarded as one of the best examples of PvP MMO.

MojaveHeld · July 2019

You put it into words better than I ever could. Most vet trials, especially the dlc ones, have massive heal checks, as well as encounters specifically designed for the group to have to use orbs/shards to even have a chance at sustaining (offtanking on the fire dragon in vSS is a good example, the adds simply hit too hard and too frequently to be able to self-sustain your resources reliably through that). ZOS wouldn't have ever even considered these healing changes if they had actually played their own vet trials. It honestly feels like the combat team and the content team never communicate with each other, because these proposed changes are simply not feasible for most vet trials players.

xylena_lazarow · July 2019

I don't understand why they couldn't have left PvE healing alone, and used the Battle Spirit PvP modifier to drastically reduce healing done to other players. Mass healing in PvP has been disgustingly overpowered for years, but this is a bad solution.

colossalvoids · July 2019

It was a long time talk about separating the two but oh my it's needed now heavily. After couple of hours on pts it's just hands down worst changes since morr, it's overlaps everything good that was made before and it this patch included. Wrathstone was so much promising and now we got this, smh my head.
What's next, meat shield tanking?

MLGProPlayer · July 2019

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I don't understand why they couldn't have left PvE healing alone, and used the Battle Spirit PvP modifier to drastically reduce healing done to other players. Mass healing in PvP has been disgustingly overpowered for years, but this is a bad solution.

That's a question we ask ourselves after every patch.

OrdinatorInMourning · July 2019

Code, you're right. Everything is clearly explained and everyone can get it. I do agree with you!

aetherial_heavenn · July 2019

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

They literally think healers only press three buttons: combat prayer, orbs, and springs. And they think that, because of this, healing needed to be gutted. >.>

Unfortunately in vet dungeons..including most dlc..that is all it takes. One of these skills slotted per DD or one resto staff on a dps or a dps slotting vigour and purge, combined with a self sustaining tank, and good to go.
'Just put on a resto and spam springs' or 'just run orbs' has been the mantra for high dps vet speed runs for years. Even my social guild calls for 3 deeps and a tank for all vet content these days.
In fact the ONLY content where dedicated healers are required to complete the content has been vet trials...and not even all of those.

A tiny percent of players do vet trials and an even tinier number do the ones requiring the scenarios described in OP.

I suspect these changes were made to require classes to use a healing line and players playing a healer's role be specced into that healing line to complete the majority of vet content that most pleyers attempt..

Re the OP:If completing the vet trials content mentioned in the OP is not possible for the handful of trials guilds that regularly completed it prior to the proposed changes. ..as Code induces it will be..then trial mechanics could be /should be adjusted or skill changes reverted to the bare min required for this content.But designing healing around that content would leave us with the overpowered heals available in the rest of the game. It is a wicked problem.

TL :DR I PvP and PvE. Resto staff heals and orbs made dedicated healers irrelevant while making overhealing prevalent in both areas...because all classes could overheal with those few skills.

The hardest Vet trials need special solutions in my opinion.

AgentSylo · July 2019

I couldn't agree more with op, it makes me laugh that still in 2019 and they still haven't separated the 2, I don't know why they haven't or why they won't baffles me, I've seen in another mmo PvP/pve combat separated and it works very well, slot better then doing it over the board.

People say balance/unbalanced nerf this class, nerf that ability bla bla, but the fact of the matter is, the real true core of the imbalance on this game stems from the fact that pve and PvP are not separated in terms of combat data.

They could add in a line code or some change to how x ability works in cyordil/battlegrounds/duels Vs overland/dungeon/trial.

For example, (not real numbers), crystal frags hits for 10k, (this ability is reduced by 50% while in cyordil or engaged in PvP) don't quote me numbers it's just an example as you can get the gist of what I'm getting at.

Again, it still baffles me why this hasn't been implemented till this date when so many have asked for it over the years, that system is far better then what we got now.

Especially when it seems even their own combat design team are not sure where they wanna go,

for example, last patch let's buff all this, dots, aoe, bursts, initial hits, buff drinks..... up coming patch on pts, let's nerf all this, reduce damage, increase costs, reduce ticks, reduce healers heals, reduce the stats on the drink (bloody mara) that we just buffed last patch.

I mean seriously wtf is going on at hq, did the lead of combat design bang their head or something? Dunno if we are coming or going here lol.

Narvuntien · July 2019

You can just nerf the PVE damage then... Although I think in too many situations in PVE people use healing as a crutch to never have to learn mechanics...

I don't think there is any need to balance them separately if PVE and PVP want completely different things as you noted in the first post. They are different environments they use different skills that ask different things of you... so you just change skills and gear rather than change the game to swap between them.

Varana · July 2019

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

TL :DR I PvP and PvE. Resto staff heals and orbs made dedicated healers irrelevant while making overhealing prevalent in both areas...because all classes could overheal with those few skills.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that healing springs and orbs are responsible for the 3DD-groups.

A consequence of "all classes, all roles" is that every class has access to effective methods of healing. If all four people can distribute the necessary healing among themselves, they don't need a dedicated healer.

But, and that's the problem:
This patch exacerbates this problem.
It grants (sometimes major) buffs to class skills and self-heals while taking away tools of a more dedicated healer who actually runs a resto staff, i.e. Healing Springs and Regeneration.

Group heals from a dedicated healer have been nerfed into the ground - which means that groups have even fewer reasons to take a healer with them.

davapoole · July 2019

i have played this game for over 4 years and every so called rebalancing is always for pvp reasons not pve. zos only care about what pvp players say on the forums as they complain the most. this has been the case for years they dont care what you think in pve they only care about what pvp players are after. if you look back at all the rebalanacing that has gone on for yearsits always because of pvp reasons and pve just has to rebuild there characters to suit suffereing the collateral damage that has no justification for pve

Slowbromance · July 2019

What is funny, is the only thing they really needed to change was the way that healing springs worked, but they did that and nerfed the heal that it provides. People that complain about healing being too strong in PvP have never healed or understand how to do it.

I have been in plenty fights that are full of incoming damage that would easily take out my group if there wasn't counter play from healing. From my side, I'm working my ass off to keep my group alive. From their side, we're "unkillable" which is frustrating. The biggest thing the QQing in the forums is going to do this patch is make it to where healers that have played this game for years don't want to play anymore.

It feels less of a balancing act this patch and more of a "we don't want healers anymore" which started from PvP players, and ZoS has listened.

And I have listened, as many other healers have. I guess I will play this game sometimes now, but I have cancelled my subscription and am not interested in the lukewarm healing ability I have this next patch.

master_vanargand · July 2019

The direction of ZOS is correct.
But ZOS does not have enough effort.
That is the problem.

St_Anger · July 2019

Weil said! I‘ve never heard anyone to analyze the problem that will and reflected. I 100% agree. The top solution would be to nerv selfheals and and add a debuff to healing inflicted by other players to battle spirit!