Update 23 Healer changes: PvP vs. endgame PvE balancing

code65536

One of the common things that I see as I browse the forums is the statement, "Healing is too strong."

This typically comes from players who mainly engage in PvP. And as I look through the various discussion threads about the Update 23 healing changes, without exception, the people who are most supportive of them are those who mainly engage in PvP.

It's been the long-stated goal of the ZOS developers that they don't want to balance PvP and endgame PvE separately. That they want a uniform combat system. I appreciate the sentiment, but I want to explain why this is untenable.

First, in broad strokes, PvP and endgame PvE are fundamentally different.

• In PvP, your opponents react. They'll heal, shield, move away, CC you, etc., in response to what you do. PvP is about play and counterplay, and the balance of the two.
• In endgame PvE, it's about rules. It's centered around the MMO trinity of tank, healer, and damage dealer. Your opponent follows those rules and attacks the tank. They don't react, they don't improvise, and instead, the challenge for the player is how well they can follow the rules of each particular fight--i.e., the mechanics.

Next, PvP doesn't follow the structural rules as endgame PvE. If you're dueling or running around solo, you have only your own self-heals to rely on. When you solo queue for a Battlegrounds match, the Activity Finder doesn't make sure that your group has a tank and a healer like it does for dungeons, and more often than not, I end up in a group where I have only my own self-defenses at my disposal.

And for the most part, that's how PvP is balanced in this game: Self-defenses are strong enough in PvP for a skilled player to get through most situations. You need to and are supposed to be able to get by with self-heals and other self-defenses. Which is why dedicated healers are so potent--or as some may argue, overperforming--in PvP because they effectively upset this balance. I don't PvP much, but I have done enough to notice the stark contrast in fighting a group that has no healer versus fighting a group that has healers backing them up.

And the changes in Update 23 severely impinge on the ability for healers to heal a large number of allies for sustained periods of time. Which, I admit, is probably good for PvP balance. But what about endgame PvE, where there's structure and adherence to the MMO trinity?

Because of the potency of self-defenses (which are important for solo play and for PvP), healers are already struggling to find a place in small-scale PvE content--i.e., dungeons. Many of my dungeon runs--even for the latest vet DLC dungeons in Hard Mode--are done without a dedicated healer because we have strong self-defenses and because most dungeons lack "heal-check" mechanics.

Trials, however, are known for their heal checks where surviving a mechanic requires a large amount of healing on a large number of players. Even a "beginner" trial like vAA has a heal-check mechanic (execute phase of the final boss). Or the execute phases of vHoF and vCR. Or Focus Fire, Static, and Soul Tear in vSS HM. The level of sustained incoming damage in endgame PvE is generally much higher than what is found in PvP.

And therein lies the conflict between PvP and endgame PvE:

• At the current damage levels that players experience in endgame PvE, healers need to be able to output a large amount of healing on multiple players in a sustained manner. But this level of healing output is disruptive to a PvP balance where incoming damage is much lower.
• If the damage levels in endgame PvE are reduced to a point where it can accommodate the massive nerf to sustained multi-person healing output in Update 23, then what's the point of the healer role if there are no heal checks and DDs can just heal themselves?

What we have in Update 23 is the gutting of the backbone of the healer's toolkit for sustained multi-person healing--Grand Healing and Energy Orbs account for anywhere from 50-75% of a healer's output in trials. And at the same time, stamina self-healing was buffed: Resolving Vigor received a 55% increase in potency. It's hard to understate what this means for the role of the healer in this game.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam Stop balancing PvP and endgame PvE with the same stroke. It sounds nice on the surface, but you just cannot do this. These are fundamentally different types of gameplay and it makes absolutely no sense to treat them in the same way. Battle Spirit exists for a reason--an adjustment to healing done to other players via Battle Spirit would be a much sensible approach.

stileanima

100% agree, very well said. I hope the combat team takes a look at this post.

fioskal

^^^^^

Durham

Its not about balance its about performance. Healing springs uses a ton of server resouces compared to other abilites.

Nightingale707

yes, I do fully agree with this write-up too. please rethink the changes to healing from a PvE position.

code65536

Durham wrote: »

Its not about balance its about performance. Healing springs uses a ton of server resouces compared to other abilites.

No. If that was the case, then there should have been buffs to the tick values of these abilities to compensate. Instead, we got a 44% nerf to Grand Healing's tick value and a 13% nerf to Energy Orb's tick value, on top of the mechanical nerfs to both.

FakeFox

code65536 wrote: »

Your opponent follows those rules and attacks the tank.

Are you sure about that?

Jaimeh

I completely agree about separating the two modes: changes that result from PvP imbalance usually impact PvE negatively, and although PvP-ers will typically say 'adapt', there will come a point where it will be almost impossible to achieve some things, especially if these proposed changes go through. It's puzzling to think that the same people who designed trials, or for example, came up with the Godslayer achievement, are the same people who proposed the healing changes. It doesn't add up. And it's not just the healing, but shields, strong damage skills, skills that debuff, etc., all altered because they are too powerful in PvP. I don't know if it's a matter of pride at this point with ZOS not wanting to separate PvP from PvE, or if the technical work involved is too complex and not worth their effort, but everything would be so much better if skills had, say, two sets of descriptions: one of PvE and one for PvP, and when entering PvP-enabled areas, the application of battle spirit would automatically activate the PvP version of the skill. Wishful and probably unrealistic thinking, but the kind of content they are releasing for end-gamers is not compatible with their vision of the combat system it seems.

radiostar

Does it have any effect on heals that a lot of bosses are immune to some tank and dps skills?

Zyaedra

I completely agree w/Code. It's time to separate the two. I have harsher words popping into my head so I'll stop there.

mobicera

Very well said and thought out post.
I am way to annoyed right now to be that constructive...

blnchk

Alternatively, they might opt for nerfing the relevant PvE encounters.

code65536

blnchk wrote: »

Alternatively, they might opt for nerfing the relevant PvE encounters.

I addressed that in my post:
If the damage levels in endgame PvE are reduced to a point where it can accommodate the massive nerf to sustained multi-person healing output in Update 23, then what's the point of the healer role if there are no heal checks and DDs can just heal themselves?

Heelie

This was a good post. We know from the leaks and so on that the changes where aimed at pvp. And that end game pve is just collateral damage. But these changes will not just slightly alter end game pve. They will fundermentaly change it for the worse. The positives that we have seen since Dragon Bones with the synergy change will be completely wiped out for a stale playstyle centered around overhealing from class healing.

blnchk

code65536 wrote: »

blnchk wrote: »

Alternatively, they might opt for nerfing the relevant PvE encounters.

I addressed that in my post:
If the damage levels in endgame PvE are reduced to a point where it can accommodate the massive nerf to sustained multi-person healing output in Update 23, then what's the point of the healer role if there are no heal checks and DDs can just heal themselves?

Ah, apologies. Shouldn't this depend on the severity of the nerfs to said encounters? I'd assume for the heal checks to remain in place and for the healer role to remain relevant for most groups, even if the best of the best may end up managing with (mostly?) self-healing. Things might look different if the content was being cleared by a large portion of the player base. As far as I know, that's not the case.

Varana

blnchk wrote: »

Alternatively, they might opt for nerfing the relevant PvE encounters.

The problem with that is that it'll make healers even less relevant.
If the encounters are nerfed so they comply with the PvP balance of being self-sustaining, then healers are not necessary.

thankyourat

I don’t think this has much to do with pvp. I think this is more due to the fact that elite PvE raid guilds were steam rolling content. So ZoS nerfed damage, and healing to make content harder for them. This has nothing to do with PvP at all. The problem is there is such a huge gap between the best and worse PvEers that the game is impossible to balance because how do you make it to where content is challenging for the best players while at the same time make it easy enough for lesser skilled players to complete the content.

norrisnick

thankyourat wrote: »

I don’t think this has much to do with pvp. I think this is more due to the fact that elite PvE raid guilds were steam rolling content. So ZoS nerfed damage, and healing to make content harder for them. This has nothing to do with PvP at all. The problem is there is such a huge gap between the best and worse PvEers that the game is impossible to balance because how do you make it to where content is challenging for the best players while at the same time make it easy enough for lesser skilled players to complete the content.

So... the way to make the gap between elite and progression PVEers smaller is to nerf all things PVE? All this does is make the gap bigger.

I would imagine that the thread above with PVPers almost universally applauding these changes will guide you towards the direction driving these changes.

thankyourat

norrisnick wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I don’t think this has much to do with pvp. I think this is more due to the fact that elite PvE raid guilds were steam rolling content. So ZoS nerfed damage, and healing to make content harder for them. This has nothing to do with PvP at all. The problem is there is such a huge gap between the best and worse PvEers that the game is impossible to balance because how do you make it to where content is challenging for the best players while at the same time make it easy enough for lesser skilled players to complete the content.

So... the way to make the gap between elite and progression PVEers smaller is to nerf all things PVE? All this does is make the gap bigger.

I don’t think there is a 100% full proof way of going about this. One side will always be unhappy. Either some will think the game is too easy or some will think it’s too hard. I’m pretty sure ZoS doesn’t want groups just steam rolling their content though.

norrisnick

thankyourat wrote: »

norrisnick wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I don’t think this has much to do with pvp. I think this is more due to the fact that elite PvE raid guilds were steam rolling content. So ZoS nerfed damage, and healing to make content harder for them. This has nothing to do with PvP at all. The problem is there is such a huge gap between the best and worse PvEers that the game is impossible to balance because how do you make it to where content is challenging for the best players while at the same time make it easy enough for lesser skilled players to complete the content.

So... the way to make the gap between elite and progression PVEers smaller is to nerf all things PVE? All this does is make the gap bigger.

I don’t think there is a 100% full proof way of going about this. One side will always be unhappy. Either some will think the game is too easy or some will think it’s too hard. I’m pretty sure ZoS doesn’t want groups just steam rolling their content though.

The thing is... there is no sides in this. Top end PVEers and Progression PVEers are on the same side. The former are showing how well it can be done and the latter is striving to get there. If there is no 'there' to get to... the progression group just won't even try.

The other 'side' in this is PVP. Which are giddy with these changes.

polgarah

find a good group to run high end content is quite difficult....i know hodor and a few guilds more that can steam the content but most players run vet trials in progression guilds/groups with hundreds of wipes in their backs. I’m doing it in this way and I’m sick and tired from we’re going to nerf everything tbh.

thankyourat

norrisnick wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

norrisnick wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I don’t think this has much to do with pvp. I think this is more due to the fact that elite PvE raid guilds were steam rolling content. So ZoS nerfed damage, and healing to make content harder for them. This has nothing to do with PvP at all. The problem is there is such a huge gap between the best and worse PvEers that the game is impossible to balance because how do you make it to where content is challenging for the best players while at the same time make it easy enough for lesser skilled players to complete the content.

So... the way to make the gap between elite and progression PVEers smaller is to nerf all things PVE? All this does is make the gap bigger.

I don’t think there is a 100% full proof way of going about this. One side will always be unhappy. Either some will think the game is too easy or some will think it’s too hard. I’m pretty sure ZoS doesn’t want groups just steam rolling their content though.

The thing is... there is no sides in this. Top end PVEers and Progression PVEers are on the same side. The former are showing how well it can be done and the latter is striving to get there. If there is no 'there' to get to... the progression group just won't even try.

The other 'side' in this is PVP. Which are giddy with these changes.

Some pvpers are happy for the changes because balance effects them much more heavily because players can use broken mechanics against them. Just because some PvEers aren’t happy about the nerfs doesn’t mean the nerfs weren’t made with PvE in mind. There are also plenty of PvPers that are upset about the changes, just like there were a lot of PvE players complaining that content in eso is too easy. ZoS can also just tune in to any PvE stream and watch how easy the content is for them. I think a better question is should the game be balanced with the top players in mind or the newer players. I don’t think there is a way to balance for both.

Sanguinor2

thankyourat wrote: »

Some pvpers are happy for the changes because balance effects them much more heavily because players can use broken mechanics against them. Just because some PvEers aren’t happy about the nerfs doesn’t mean the nerfs weren’t made with PvE in mind. There are also plenty of PvPers that are upset about the changes, just like there were a lot of PvE players complaining that content in eso is too easy. ZoS can also just tune in to any PvE stream and watch how easy the content is for them. I think a better question is should the game be balanced with the top players in mind or the newer players. I don’t think there is a way to balance for both.

The Content is too easy Group was Talking About overland Content not vet hm Trials. Minimum 90% of the People complaining in that overland is too easy thread dont have all vet hm Trial clears.
If you tune into any stream from a Progression Group you will see that Content isnt that easy for them, if you look at alcasts stream then yeah but hodor is the best pve Group in this game, so if you want to balance Content for them then most other People will get left behind.
Balancing a game only for the top People is a good way of pushing it Closer to dying, personally I´d be fine, I have all endgame stuff except for godslayer, but the remaining 95+% of the playerbase? Not so much.

SapphireFlare

Dear Zos,
I am at this point truely tired of PvP Nerfs heavy effecting PvE. And its been every big Patch so far, this Patch had a bigger pitchfork and torch reaction than the shieldnerfs every had.....
It only proof being lazy and want to fix everything by not Seperating PvE and PvP will really not doing it. One side will always have to sacrifice. Its hard work out HOW to draw a Line between both, and there different ways to do so...but it will stop these Riots and acutally be a new beginnign to make both happier.

It is already not really works out that PvPers have to do PvE to get sear such as Weapons like from vDSA or BRP. There people to both, but still PvP PAY for clears to get the gear often enough.


As a Healer main, but also someone who DPS content, there will be a lot Problems, and most of them will hit mostly the "Casual Players" and PuG Raidgroups, which is still the mayor part of ESOs Community. Newer Players are even more require "Big Heals" on Tank or DPS and I mean just raw Healing debuffing and buff plays a less important role. I been in group where it was priority not to let some people die. And that is fine, but its where the changes will kick in, and I have no clue how badly it will decrease soem Raiding experience here. Its jsut not fun if you wipe over 2 hours.

Plus I fear it will going in an non MMO traditional direaction better to just bring more DPS, RIP Healer Role and just selfhealing DPS.We already have a Skipt mechncis more DPS Meta in a lot DLC dungeons...

A huge about of Endgamers are concered. Healing is more than just healing, just like Tanking is not just aggro a Boss and block. Healers do Buff and Debuff and give resources, provide basic healing. Good healer have good debuff and buff uptime on like Combat Prayer. And have no DPS that never cry for More orbs. Also its not like we spam orbs like crazy all the time. Just enough for every to catch a syngery everytime its off CD again.

Most fight aren't about spamming Healing Springs. However it became one of the best tactics to burst heal thought some situations.
Trials like vCR(+x) and vet HMs like vAS or HoF do need Orb as a sustain giver so now in vAs the Group healer can only give an Orb in Age because it travels slower and only 1 max? Plus its the only way NON templars can give resources. You said you want all classes be able do everything? But what happens to non Templar Healer that can not give Faster traveling shards? And the future of vCR+3 and vHoF HM execute Healing will be Spamming Breath of Life, Sorc Pet heals, Warden Mushrooms, Restro ult, Rememberance, Enchanment Growth? Is that prettier plays, just hitting a Burst heal button till Magicka is gone? Or RIP Warhorn on Healer for Healing ultimates, Works on Z'Maja's Bane, But not on the General permanently ticking below 25%, increasing...



You also just released Necromancer with a truely strong Stam dps version, maybe a bit to strong. But People seem to enjoy Tanking Healing and magDPS as well. But therefore one of the worse sustain in each role. So they do need these Shards/Orbs the change will hit them harder than most classes...

akl77

I didn’t think this nerf was coming from pvper complaining again, now you pointed out it as well as could, as that seems to be the only thing ZOS listens to, pvper.

But instead of every protesting thread on the forum, can anyone provide and predict the solution to heal way forward for VSO, vss, vcr and vhof? By taking orbs and spring off your bar and heal those hard DoTs contents and tell us what’s your findings, that proofs more with evidence. How do you heal strong DoTs when there’s no viable Hots. Do you have to constantly Rez people? Wipes imminent?

ZOS is too lazy or got no time to test those hard PVE contents with the nerfs, so pro healers please test those and post your findings if you want to proof a point for ZOS.

StandResolute

I am chiming in here because I want them to see that another person in upset about these possible changes. PvE and PvP are completely different. You can not treat them the same. I am proud of my healing. I enjoy the PvE content I do, both vet and normal.

God152

Well written Code! I couldn't agree more!!

Alucu

Im a pvp player (Usually healer or off healer) as well as an end-game raider. Im certainly not top tier at any of those modes but having both perspectives I approve very little of these changes (Bleeds nerf and magicka warden dps improvement were necessary). But I dont see a lot of consistency regarding the changes to healing springs or orbs for example. Specially when you look at the changes to seventh legion or how some defensive skills like rally/forward momentum/vigor/hardened ward will work now, which are self defenses. Sounds to me like role asignations could be a good idea in BGs queues (Also adjusting the wait times and bugs), as for open world, is not a matter of healing being too strong, is a matter of teamwork, specialization and coordination being rewarded. Even outnumbered. Example: Animosity with just 5 guys wiped Blood sport, a much larger group with bigger heals. Or not even that, kenta or therealsniker are able to wipe a group with healers on his own not easily, but almost.

If this go live the community should have the devs on stream clearing vAA HM, vSO, vHOF HM and vCR.

Im not against changes in general but these look so random, like the time they wanted to add cast times to shields

Zyaedra

Alucu wrote: »

If this go live the community should have the devs on stream clearing vAA HM, vSO, vHOF HM and vCR.

Yes.

DisgracefulMind

They literally think healers only press three buttons: combat prayer, orbs, and springs. And they think that, because of this, healing needed to be gutted. >.>

ecru

So much of this stems from trying to balance pve and pvp with the exact same skills, only with a 50% reduction and a slight boost to health in pvp. It's absolutely wrong way to go about balancing two completely different facets of the game and as far as I know, no game has really ever tried to do it that way. In basically every other game, specific abilities' are strengthened or weakened depending on how they perform to balance them in pvp, which works really, really well. The fact that ZOS devs outright refuse (or just aren't capable) to adjust specific abilities strenghts and weaknesses.

The whole battle spirit is poorly thought out and we need adjustments to abilities specific to pvp so that the pve community doesn't get screwed over every time something isn't balanced in pve, and vice versa. It's a bad system, but instead of scrapping it, everyone in every facet of the game gets hurt by trying to balance both sides at once.