barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Censered wrote: »

A lot of these people arguing for this system seem to have never played another MMO before yet are claiming the farmers market system is better than the free market system. They are either without the knowledge of how systems work or their arguments are intentionally without integrity because they are they ones profiting the most off of this.

First off more competition means less inflation and potential for abuse. That's literally one of the most basic facts of economics.

In other games you can buy everything and relist it just like here but it's commonly two to three hundred percent not one to ten thousand percent. Because everyone is involved in the economy they will soon be undercut over and over especially by new people who want money now so that is what controls inflation.

except most of us HAD played other MMO's and are aware of advantages and disadvantages of centralized systems. and what a lot of us are saying is that you are wrong when you say that markups do NOT happen nearly as much in centralized systems. they absolutely do. inflation happens in any and all systems that do not have a stable, continuous gold sink implemented. off the top of my head - swtor. had a HORRIBLE inflation that is STILl ongoing. why? because at one point they increased credit generation AND allowed a bug to go on far too long that allowed large influx of credits into the system but... they never bothered taking those credits out OR even adding enough proper credit sinks to balance out all those credits you got from quests. as a result - regular players who just play casually can NOT afford anything that is relevant to actual gameplay. it seems like million credits is a lot, but its barely a drop in a bucket.

are centralized trade systems convenient? YES. YES THEY ARE. do they make it easier, in theory for casual player to list things? YES. YES they do. do they make shopping experience more convenient and faster? yes. but and here is the main question - DO THEY MAKE ITEMS MORE AFFORDABLE AND PREVENT ARBITRATION? ABSOLUTELY NOT. in every MMO I have played and I played my fair share, heck let me tell you about my recent experience in WoW. a game I have been playing on and off since Burning Crusade. Blizzard messed up economy back in Warlords of Draenor. you see, they introduced these super easy Garrison missions. anyone can run them. you can be "plays only on weekends" casual and make gold with them in conciderable amounts. but they did NOT introduce proper gold sinks. and inflation... went... NUTS. so they made it a little harder to make gold this way in Legion, but still for the most part left it in, because THEY know that not everyone wants to bother with selling but a lot of people are interested in buying, whether from npc vendors or Ah itself. not only it was too little too late, but it wasn't nearly enough. so no in BFA.. we have a result. they are trying to reduce gold generated from in game activities, and so average casual cannot really afford much of anything. items they have acess to sell are oversaturated and because WoW is a game where everything that came before the most recent expansion - is obsolete? those obsolete items don't sell for much at all. the only way to genuinely, truly make gold - is to not be a casual. for all the accesibility, the end result is virtualy the same except here, in THIS game? because we HAVE reliable gold sinks, causal player can go steal for half an hour and be able to afford to buy that spinner's staff the very. same. day.

would I love it if shopping in ESO was NOT a prolonged experience? YES. YES I WOULD. however... from all the MMO's that I have played, whether I dabbled for a few months (Final Fantasy, Aion, Allods, Rift, LOTRO, DnD online and a few more I cannot remember right now, casue I didn't stick around long enough), or played for years (like WoW, guild wars 2, Secret world and its reboot- legends, SWTOR, Neverwinter - just to name a few - all games with centralized trading) - none of them had a system that was as effective as what ESO has when it comes to keeping items relatively affordable, allowing for players who do NOT wish to sell, still afford to buy things they may need or want with relatively low amount of grinding, compared to other games. and all of it thanks to guild trader bids. do you have any good ideas, legitimately good, working ideas that can replace guild trader fees at being as effective and consistent at removing gold out of the economy?

the only suggestion that I personally i think could work is adding a centralized vendor ala Pirrari the smuggler. someone who charges extra fee for convenience of both listing and buying without having to be in a guild, or having to go to a guild kiosk. allows to buy anything from ANY trader, but you have to pay extra for it.

1) SWTOR - doesn't matter that things all of a sudden cost millions. Simple and efficient method, watch for the x30 crates go on sale, open them and store them 3 days so you can sell items - bingo - you have 50 - 80 million credits. Just because the numbers are high does not mean the economy is not balanced.

2) Does a GAH make items more affordable? YES. Because when you are talking about mats, such as the person who claimed they would buy up all the corn flower if we went to a GAH and then sell them for 5000 apiece, would end up bankrupt. All the GAH does in that situation is allow quick access to quantity. If its over priced, the player just spends the time and gets it for free. In the mean time the 'corner the market' clown MUST buy EVERY cornflower that comes into the market, no matter what the price, just to keep his hold on the market, and will not end up selling ANY for the 5000 price tag.

This Trader system we use, on the other hand, has the unique opportunity for Any seller with 2 accounts to manipulate and basically have the system Lie about the price of items. Actual real situation - Motif recipes for a specific style go for 5000 - 10000. Except for one piece. It goes for 197,777 - no matter which trader you go to. Reason? Account 1 puts a piece up for sale at 200k. He then buys it with Account 2 - and thus the ADDons that everyone relies on 'claim' the piece sells for an average of 197,777. Maybe you think that 197,777 for a single motif recipe is "relatively affordable".

Players do NOT have the options to see what every item listed is going for. They are limited to whatever trader they can physically find. Traders rely on 'data' from Addons, which is more easily manipulated than trying to corner a market with a GAH. Probably another reason some people are so strongly against the GAH.

3) Stealing for half an hour is going to get you 100k? Oh please. As if selling 110 items to the fence will give you that amount of gold. And of course stealing doesn't carry any negative aspects of its own when you fail. If it wasn't clear, that was sarcasm.

4) Why are you so hung up on making sure gold 'leaves' the economy? Without methods of Rigging prices, the way we have it now, people will pay what they think an item is worth. If they don't like the price, they go out and Earn it the hard way. But the cost of an item is irrelevant, be it 10g, 1000g, or 100,000g. It is whatever the market will bear.

I played Archeage Fresh Start server. The first 3 days an Apex could be sold for 50 gold. Why? because there was no gold available yet. 50 gold most character did not even have yet. A month later Apex is selling for 200 gold. 6 months later its at 800 gold. Simply because there is more gold in the economy. Yesterday I sold one for 1600 gold, and it sold in 7 minutes.

How much gold is in the system vs how much is leaving is irrelevant. The system will balance itself, so long as its not as simple to Rig prices like our current system is.


IMHO



EDIT: Just wanted to add - I just got the mail from my Trading Guild. Seems we lost out on our Trader this week. So now, if I have something to sell this week, I am not ALLOWED to put it out for sale to everyone in the game. I am only allowed to sell to members of the Guild. However, just to be clear, they mention that Guild Dues are still required even though we lost out on a Trader. They hope - that is : HOPE - to get the trader back next week.

Such a wonderful system we have in this game, he said with extreme sarcasm.

barney2525 wrote: »

Ah... that standard response from all who are panicked that their own little bubble might be burst if Zos used some common sense and added an Global Auction House.

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Censered wrote: »

A lot of these people arguing for this system seem to have never played another MMO before yet are claiming the farmers market system is better than the free market system. They are either without the knowledge of how systems work or their arguments are intentionally without integrity because they are they ones profiting the most off of this.

First off more competition means less inflation and potential for abuse. That's literally one of the most basic facts of economics.

In other games you can buy everything and relist it just like here but it's commonly two to three hundred percent not one to ten thousand percent. Because everyone is involved in the economy they will soon be undercut over and over especially by new people who want money now so that is what controls inflation.

except most of us HAD played other MMO's and are aware of advantages and disadvantages of centralized systems. and what a lot of us are saying is that you are wrong when you say that markups do NOT happen nearly as much in centralized systems. they absolutely do. inflation happens in any and all systems that do not have a stable, continuous gold sink implemented. off the top of my head - swtor. had a HORRIBLE inflation that is STILl ongoing. why? because at one point they increased credit generation AND allowed a bug to go on far too long that allowed large influx of credits into the system but... they never bothered taking those credits out OR even adding enough proper credit sinks to balance out all those credits you got from quests. as a result - regular players who just play casually can NOT afford anything that is relevant to actual gameplay. it seems like million credits is a lot, but its barely a drop in a bucket.

are centralized trade systems convenient? YES. YES THEY ARE. do they make it easier, in theory for casual player to list things? YES. YES they do. do they make shopping experience more convenient and faster? yes. but and here is the main question - DO THEY MAKE ITEMS MORE AFFORDABLE AND PREVENT ARBITRATION? ABSOLUTELY NOT. in every MMO I have played and I played my fair share, heck let me tell you about my recent experience in WoW. a game I have been playing on and off since Burning Crusade. Blizzard messed up economy back in Warlords of Draenor. you see, they introduced these super easy Garrison missions. anyone can run them. you can be "plays only on weekends" casual and make gold with them in conciderable amounts. but they did NOT introduce proper gold sinks. and inflation... went... NUTS. so they made it a little harder to make gold this way in Legion, but still for the most part left it in, because THEY know that not everyone wants to bother with selling but a lot of people are interested in buying, whether from npc vendors or Ah itself. not only it was too little too late, but it wasn't nearly enough. so no in BFA.. we have a result. they are trying to reduce gold generated from in game activities, and so average casual cannot really afford much of anything. items they have acess to sell are oversaturated and because WoW is a game where everything that came before the most recent expansion - is obsolete? those obsolete items don't sell for much at all. the only way to genuinely, truly make gold - is to not be a casual. for all the accesibility, the end result is virtualy the same except here, in THIS game? because we HAVE reliable gold sinks, causal player can go steal for half an hour and be able to afford to buy that spinner's staff the very. same. day.

would I love it if shopping in ESO was NOT a prolonged experience? YES. YES I WOULD. however... from all the MMO's that I have played, whether I dabbled for a few months (Final Fantasy, Aion, Allods, Rift, LOTRO, DnD online and a few more I cannot remember right now, casue I didn't stick around long enough), or played for years (like WoW, guild wars 2, Secret world and its reboot- legends, SWTOR, Neverwinter - just to name a few - all games with centralized trading) - none of them had a system that was as effective as what ESO has when it comes to keeping items relatively affordable, allowing for players who do NOT wish to sell, still afford to buy things they may need or want with relatively low amount of grinding, compared to other games. and all of it thanks to guild trader bids. do you have any good ideas, legitimately good, working ideas that can replace guild trader fees at being as effective and consistent at removing gold out of the economy?

the only suggestion that I personally i think could work is adding a centralized vendor ala Pirrari the smuggler. someone who charges extra fee for convenience of both listing and buying without having to be in a guild, or having to go to a guild kiosk. allows to buy anything from ANY trader, but you have to pay extra for it.

1) SWTOR - doesn't matter that things all of a sudden cost millions. Simple and efficient method, watch for the x30 crates go on sale, open them and store them 3 days so you can sell items - bingo - you have 50 - 80 million credits. Just because the numbers are high does not mean the economy is not balanced.

2) Does a GAH make items more affordable? YES. Because when you are talking about mats, such as the person who claimed they would buy up all the corn flower if we went to a GAH and then sell them for 5000 apiece, would end up bankrupt. All the GAH does in that situation is allow quick access to quantity. If its over priced, the player just spends the time and gets it for free. In the mean time the 'corner the market' clown MUST buy EVERY cornflower that comes into the market, no matter what the price, just to keep his hold on the market, and will not end up selling ANY for the 5000 price tag.

This Trader system we use, on the other hand, has the unique opportunity for Any seller with 2 accounts to manipulate and basically have the system Lie about the price of items. Actual real situation - Motif recipes for a specific style go for 5000 - 10000. Except for one piece. It goes for 197,777 - no matter which trader you go to. Reason? Account 1 puts a piece up for sale at 200k. He then buys it with Account 2 - and thus the ADDons that everyone relies on 'claim' the piece sells for an average of 197,777. Maybe you think that 197,777 for a single motif recipe is "relatively affordable".

Players do NOT have the options to see what every item listed is going for. They are limited to whatever trader they can physically find. Traders rely on 'data' from Addons, which is more easily manipulated than trying to corner a market with a GAH. Probably another reason some people are so strongly against the GAH.

3) Stealing for half an hour is going to get you 100k? Oh please. As if selling 110 items to the fence will give you that amount of gold. And of course stealing doesn't carry any negative aspects of its own when you fail. If it wasn't clear, that was sarcasm.

4) Why are you so hung up on making sure gold 'leaves' the economy? Without methods of Rigging prices, the way we have it now, people will pay what they think an item is worth. If they don't like the price, they go out and Earn it the hard way. But the cost of an item is irrelevant, be it 10g, 1000g, or 100,000g. It is whatever the market will bear.

I played Archeage Fresh Start server. The first 3 days an Apex could be sold for 50 gold. Why? because there was no gold available yet. 50 gold most character did not even have yet. A month later Apex is selling for 200 gold. 6 months later its at 800 gold. Simply because there is more gold in the economy. Yesterday I sold one for 1600 gold, and it sold in 7 minutes.

How much gold is in the system vs how much is leaving is irrelevant. The system will balance itself, so long as its not as simple to Rig prices like our current system is.


IMHO



EDIT: Just wanted to add - I just got the mail from my Trading Guild. Seems we lost out on our Trader this week. So now, if I have something to sell this week, I am not ALLOWED to put it out for sale to everyone in the game. I am only allowed to sell to members of the Guild. However, just to be clear, they mention that Guild Dues are still required even though we lost out on a Trader. They hope - that is : HOPE - to get the trader back next week.

Such a wonderful system we have in this game, he said with extreme sarcasm.

do you think that selling crowns is a totally cool method to make gold? because this is what buying and selling crates amounts to. so called balanced economy. you are literally claiming that everything is cool cause you can just OPEN YOUR WALLET. that the fact that in game methods are *** poor if you happen not to be a serious raider, and/or someone who's been playing the game long enough to accumulate the funds. that its totaly fine that newer players have almost no recourse when it comes to buying in game items other then OPENING UP THEIR WALLETS. really? balanced?

GAH makes shopping and selling more convenient. that's it. it. is. more. convenient. which in itself is a major thing, however, its NOT some magical price fix. I have played too many games where things were NOT in fact affordable unless they are obsolete or inconsequential in some other ways.

stealing for half an hour will get you 15k. which is what you can find a good number of weapons or jewelry for. stealing for couple of hours across multiple characters - will get you 100k.

I am hung up on gold leaving economy, because SIGNIFICANTLY MORE GOLD ENTERING ECONOMY THAN LEAVING IT IS HOW YOU GET EXTREME INFLATION AND PRICES SO HIGH THAT ONLY SELECT FEW CAN AFFORD TO BUY ANYTHING AND NEWER/CASUAL PLAYERS ARE SOL. if we remove our most reliable gold sink - guess what? you will no longer have that option to steal for a few hours and buy that 100k item the very same day. because the price of that item is going to be one million now. or even 10 million. again, i have seen this happen, over and over and over again, in multiple games that didn't have a good currency sink to balance out the currency generation through non trading gameplay. because that balancing out you keep talking about? forgets all about someone NOT being a trader, playing just casually, still only having acess to the gold that they can get through gameplay alone. when something costs 50 gold - and quests reward 50 gold. its fine. when something costs 5k gold, but quests STILL reward 50 gold? you end up with the situation you are, ironically, complaining about where prices are just so high, fix it developers. so what do you do, increase quest rewards? that just results in prices.. "balancing" to be even higher!

the reason your trading guild is still asking for dues is to make sure that you do NOT lose your trader next week. they are going to need to up the bid and all that, to insure that.

is that ideal? no. no its not. but YOUR FIX IS NOT BETTER IN A LONG TERM. this is all that we are saying. your fix is at best a short term bandaid.
well that and our trading system is at this point a part of identity and culture of the game, warts and all. removing it, is going to have dire consequences.

jainiadral wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Censered wrote: »

A lot of these people arguing for this system seem to have never played another MMO before yet are claiming the farmers market system is better than the free market system. They are either without the knowledge of how systems work or their arguments are intentionally without integrity because they are they ones profiting the most off of this.

First off more competition means less inflation and potential for abuse. That's literally one of the most basic facts of economics.

In other games you can buy everything and relist it just like here but it's commonly two to three hundred percent not one to ten thousand percent. Because everyone is involved in the economy they will soon be undercut over and over especially by new people who want money now so that is what controls inflation.

except most of us HAD played other MMO's and are aware of advantages and disadvantages of centralized systems. and what a lot of us are saying is that you are wrong when you say that markups do NOT happen nearly as much in centralized systems. they absolutely do. inflation happens in any and all systems that do not have a stable, continuous gold sink implemented. off the top of my head - swtor. had a HORRIBLE inflation that is STILl ongoing. why? because at one point they increased credit generation AND allowed a bug to go on far too long that allowed large influx of credits into the system but... they never bothered taking those credits out OR even adding enough proper credit sinks to balance out all those credits you got from quests. as a result - regular players who just play casually can NOT afford anything that is relevant to actual gameplay. it seems like million credits is a lot, but its barely a drop in a bucket.

are centralized trade systems convenient? YES. YES THEY ARE. do they make it easier, in theory for casual player to list things? YES. YES they do. do they make shopping experience more convenient and faster? yes. but and here is the main question - DO THEY MAKE ITEMS MORE AFFORDABLE AND PREVENT ARBITRATION? ABSOLUTELY NOT. in every MMO I have played and I played my fair share, heck let me tell you about my recent experience in WoW. a game I have been playing on and off since Burning Crusade. Blizzard messed up economy back in Warlords of Draenor. you see, they introduced these super easy Garrison missions. anyone can run them. you can be "plays only on weekends" casual and make gold with them in conciderable amounts. but they did NOT introduce proper gold sinks. and inflation... went... NUTS. so they made it a little harder to make gold this way in Legion, but still for the most part left it in, because THEY know that not everyone wants to bother with selling but a lot of people are interested in buying, whether from npc vendors or Ah itself. not only it was too little too late, but it wasn't nearly enough. so no in BFA.. we have a result. they are trying to reduce gold generated from in game activities, and so average casual cannot really afford much of anything. items they have acess to sell are oversaturated and because WoW is a game where everything that came before the most recent expansion - is obsolete? those obsolete items don't sell for much at all. the only way to genuinely, truly make gold - is to not be a casual. for all the accesibility, the end result is virtualy the same except here, in THIS game? because we HAVE reliable gold sinks, causal player can go steal for half an hour and be able to afford to buy that spinner's staff the very. same. day.

would I love it if shopping in ESO was NOT a prolonged experience? YES. YES I WOULD. however... from all the MMO's that I have played, whether I dabbled for a few months (Final Fantasy, Aion, Allods, Rift, LOTRO, DnD online and a few more I cannot remember right now, casue I didn't stick around long enough), or played for years (like WoW, guild wars 2, Secret world and its reboot- legends, SWTOR, Neverwinter - just to name a few - all games with centralized trading) - none of them had a system that was as effective as what ESO has when it comes to keeping items relatively affordable, allowing for players who do NOT wish to sell, still afford to buy things they may need or want with relatively low amount of grinding, compared to other games. and all of it thanks to guild trader bids. do you have any good ideas, legitimately good, working ideas that can replace guild trader fees at being as effective and consistent at removing gold out of the economy?

the only suggestion that I personally i think could work is adding a centralized vendor ala Pirrari the smuggler. someone who charges extra fee for convenience of both listing and buying without having to be in a guild, or having to go to a guild kiosk. allows to buy anything from ANY trader, but you have to pay extra for it.

1) SWTOR - doesn't matter that things all of a sudden cost millions. Simple and efficient method, watch for the x30 crates go on sale, open them and store them 3 days so you can sell items - bingo - you have 50 - 80 million credits. Just because the numbers are high does not mean the economy is not balanced.

2) Does a GAH make items more affordable? YES. Because when you are talking about mats, such as the person who claimed they would buy up all the corn flower if we went to a GAH and then sell them for 5000 apiece, would end up bankrupt. All the GAH does in that situation is allow quick access to quantity. If its over priced, the player just spends the time and gets it for free. In the mean time the 'corner the market' clown MUST buy EVERY cornflower that comes into the market, no matter what the price, just to keep his hold on the market, and will not end up selling ANY for the 5000 price tag.

This Trader system we use, on the other hand, has the unique opportunity for Any seller with 2 accounts to manipulate and basically have the system Lie about the price of items. Actual real situation - Motif recipes for a specific style go for 5000 - 10000. Except for one piece. It goes for 197,777 - no matter which trader you go to. Reason? Account 1 puts a piece up for sale at 200k. He then buys it with Account 2 - and thus the ADDons that everyone relies on 'claim' the piece sells for an average of 197,777. Maybe you think that 197,777 for a single motif recipe is "relatively affordable".

Players do NOT have the options to see what every item listed is going for. They are limited to whatever trader they can physically find. Traders rely on 'data' from Addons, which is more easily manipulated than trying to corner a market with a GAH. Probably another reason some people are so strongly against the GAH.

3) Stealing for half an hour is going to get you 100k? Oh please. As if selling 110 items to the fence will give you that amount of gold. And of course stealing doesn't carry any negative aspects of its own when you fail. If it wasn't clear, that was sarcasm.

4) Why are you so hung up on making sure gold 'leaves' the economy? Without methods of Rigging prices, the way we have it now, people will pay what they think an item is worth. If they don't like the price, they go out and Earn it the hard way. But the cost of an item is irrelevant, be it 10g, 1000g, or 100,000g. It is whatever the market will bear.

I played Archeage Fresh Start server. The first 3 days an Apex could be sold for 50 gold. Why? because there was no gold available yet. 50 gold most character did not even have yet. A month later Apex is selling for 200 gold. 6 months later its at 800 gold. Simply because there is more gold in the economy. Yesterday I sold one for 1600 gold, and it sold in 7 minutes.

How much gold is in the system vs how much is leaving is irrelevant. The system will balance itself, so long as its not as simple to Rig prices like our current system is.


IMHO



EDIT: Just wanted to add - I just got the mail from my Trading Guild. Seems we lost out on our Trader this week. So now, if I have something to sell this week, I am not ALLOWED to put it out for sale to everyone in the game. I am only allowed to sell to members of the Guild. However, just to be clear, they mention that Guild Dues are still required even though we lost out on a Trader. They hope - that is : HOPE - to get the trader back next week.

Such a wonderful system we have in this game, he said with extreme sarcasm.

do you think that selling crowns is a totally cool method to make gold? because this is what buying and selling crates amounts to. so called balanced economy. you are literally claiming that everything is cool cause you can just OPEN YOUR WALLET. that the fact that in game methods are *** poor if you happen not to be a serious raider, and/or someone who's been playing the game long enough to accumulate the funds. that its totaly fine that newer players have almost no recourse when it comes to buying in game items other then OPENING UP THEIR WALLETS. really? balanced?

GAH makes shopping and selling more convenient. that's it. it. is. more. convenient. which in itself is a major thing, however, its NOT some magical price fix. I have played too many games where things were NOT in fact affordable unless they are obsolete or inconsequential in some other ways.

stealing for half an hour will get you 15k. which is what you can find a good number of weapons or jewelry for. stealing for couple of hours across multiple characters - will get you 100k.

I am hung up on gold leaving economy, because SIGNIFICANTLY MORE GOLD ENTERING ECONOMY THAN LEAVING IT IS HOW YOU GET EXTREME INFLATION AND PRICES SO HIGH THAT ONLY SELECT FEW CAN AFFORD TO BUY ANYTHING AND NEWER/CASUAL PLAYERS ARE SOL. if we remove our most reliable gold sink - guess what? you will no longer have that option to steal for a few hours and buy that 100k item the very same day. because the price of that item is going to be one million now. or even 10 million. again, i have seen this happen, over and over and over again, in multiple games that didn't have a good currency sink to balance out the currency generation through non trading gameplay. because that balancing out you keep talking about? forgets all about someone NOT being a trader, playing just casually, still only having acess to the gold that they can get through gameplay alone. when something costs 50 gold - and quests reward 50 gold. its fine. when something costs 5k gold, but quests STILL reward 50 gold? you end up with the situation you are, ironically, complaining about where prices are just so high, fix it developers. so what do you do, increase quest rewards? that just results in prices.. "balancing" to be even higher!

the reason your trading guild is still asking for dues is to make sure that you do NOT lose your trader next week. they are going to need to up the bid and all that, to insure that.

is that ideal? no. no its not. but YOUR FIX IS NOT BETTER IN A LONG TERM. this is all that we are saying. your fix is at best a short term bandaid.
well that and our trading system is at this point a part of identity and culture of the game, warts and all. removing it, is going to have dire consequences.

Trying to stay out of the rest of this, but one thing's sticking out to me-- the focus on new players. Going back to my time as a n00b, the trader system didn't serve me in the slightest. I tried multiple times to replace aging gear below level 50, and every time I tried to shop for something, the traders had absolutely zero that wasn't at least CP 160. Sometimes I could snag a few crafting mats, but most of the time the traders were totally useless to me.

Contrast that to a healthy GAH, say in GW2 or SWTOR, where you can find basic gear and lower level crafting mats at fairly reasonable prices. Plus, vendors had basic gear for sale to fit in the missing pieces. ESO's a gear wasteland for those just beginning the game. And the fact that available slots in trading guilds are so limited ensures that very few low level players will even be able to sell their excess.

If you're fairly casual and past CP 160, the trader system might work for you. Below that, though, when the game is hardest, the trading system likes to stick its tongue out at you and say, "Neener, neener, nothing for you here!"

Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

seratin wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kagukan wrote: »

Not sure I agree with all your points but I do agree with you on 1 thing. The auction system in the game is horrible. A basic core part of a MMO that does not allow for everyone to fully participate.

Not true. Everyone can participate fully. Just join a trading guild and voila! you are fully participating. "But I can't pay the dues!" then join trading guild with no or very small dues. Yes there are plenty. Yes you can find them in the guild finder.

I'm pretty sure there aren't enough guild stores that everyone can join one. Mathematically speaking, there is a definite limit to the number of people who can use this system and I'm fairly certain that limit is lower than the total number of people playing the game.

Why are you so sure of that? Check the guild store as I suggested, it is very obvious that there are many member slots open in many MANY trade guilds, including big central ones.

I think that you are missing the point too. So why are there so many open spots in those guilds??? I'm sure that there are different reasons for each and every guild. Just because its an existing guild does not mean that we should have to prop it up just because it was made during Beta or Launch time. Not everyone wants to join the existing old boys network. Your not allowing for any new trading guilds to form by insisting that you join an existing guild. IMO this points out another reason why there should be more traders available so that more trading guilds can participate.

dagrdagaz_5912 wrote: »

Instead of known GAH, how about adding a buy tab to a Guild Trader.
Where players can list items they like to sell, directly to a trading guild.
Some details;
- A maximum amount of listed items.
- A listing fee, for the guild.
- A guild member would have to (manually) agree or decline to buy listed items.

jainiadral wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Censered wrote: »

A lot of these people arguing for this system seem to have never played another MMO before yet are claiming the farmers market system is better than the free market system. They are either without the knowledge of how systems work or their arguments are intentionally without integrity because they are they ones profiting the most off of this.

First off more competition means less inflation and potential for abuse. That's literally one of the most basic facts of economics.

In other games you can buy everything and relist it just like here but it's commonly two to three hundred percent not one to ten thousand percent. Because everyone is involved in the economy they will soon be undercut over and over especially by new people who want money now so that is what controls inflation.

except most of us HAD played other MMO's and are aware of advantages and disadvantages of centralized systems. and what a lot of us are saying is that you are wrong when you say that markups do NOT happen nearly as much in centralized systems. they absolutely do. inflation happens in any and all systems that do not have a stable, continuous gold sink implemented. off the top of my head - swtor. had a HORRIBLE inflation that is STILl ongoing. why? because at one point they increased credit generation AND allowed a bug to go on far too long that allowed large influx of credits into the system but... they never bothered taking those credits out OR even adding enough proper credit sinks to balance out all those credits you got from quests. as a result - regular players who just play casually can NOT afford anything that is relevant to actual gameplay. it seems like million credits is a lot, but its barely a drop in a bucket.

are centralized trade systems convenient? YES. YES THEY ARE. do they make it easier, in theory for casual player to list things? YES. YES they do. do they make shopping experience more convenient and faster? yes. but and here is the main question - DO THEY MAKE ITEMS MORE AFFORDABLE AND PREVENT ARBITRATION? ABSOLUTELY NOT. in every MMO I have played and I played my fair share, heck let me tell you about my recent experience in WoW. a game I have been playing on and off since Burning Crusade. Blizzard messed up economy back in Warlords of Draenor. you see, they introduced these super easy Garrison missions. anyone can run them. you can be "plays only on weekends" casual and make gold with them in conciderable amounts. but they did NOT introduce proper gold sinks. and inflation... went... NUTS. so they made it a little harder to make gold this way in Legion, but still for the most part left it in, because THEY know that not everyone wants to bother with selling but a lot of people are interested in buying, whether from npc vendors or Ah itself. not only it was too little too late, but it wasn't nearly enough. so no in BFA.. we have a result. they are trying to reduce gold generated from in game activities, and so average casual cannot really afford much of anything. items they have acess to sell are oversaturated and because WoW is a game where everything that came before the most recent expansion - is obsolete? those obsolete items don't sell for much at all. the only way to genuinely, truly make gold - is to not be a casual. for all the accesibility, the end result is virtualy the same except here, in THIS game? because we HAVE reliable gold sinks, causal player can go steal for half an hour and be able to afford to buy that spinner's staff the very. same. day.

would I love it if shopping in ESO was NOT a prolonged experience? YES. YES I WOULD. however... from all the MMO's that I have played, whether I dabbled for a few months (Final Fantasy, Aion, Allods, Rift, LOTRO, DnD online and a few more I cannot remember right now, casue I didn't stick around long enough), or played for years (like WoW, guild wars 2, Secret world and its reboot- legends, SWTOR, Neverwinter - just to name a few - all games with centralized trading) - none of them had a system that was as effective as what ESO has when it comes to keeping items relatively affordable, allowing for players who do NOT wish to sell, still afford to buy things they may need or want with relatively low amount of grinding, compared to other games. and all of it thanks to guild trader bids. do you have any good ideas, legitimately good, working ideas that can replace guild trader fees at being as effective and consistent at removing gold out of the economy?

the only suggestion that I personally i think could work is adding a centralized vendor ala Pirrari the smuggler. someone who charges extra fee for convenience of both listing and buying without having to be in a guild, or having to go to a guild kiosk. allows to buy anything from ANY trader, but you have to pay extra for it.

1) SWTOR - doesn't matter that things all of a sudden cost millions. Simple and efficient method, watch for the x30 crates go on sale, open them and store them 3 days so you can sell items - bingo - you have 50 - 80 million credits. Just because the numbers are high does not mean the economy is not balanced.

2) Does a GAH make items more affordable? YES. Because when you are talking about mats, such as the person who claimed they would buy up all the corn flower if we went to a GAH and then sell them for 5000 apiece, would end up bankrupt. All the GAH does in that situation is allow quick access to quantity. If its over priced, the player just spends the time and gets it for free. In the mean time the 'corner the market' clown MUST buy EVERY cornflower that comes into the market, no matter what the price, just to keep his hold on the market, and will not end up selling ANY for the 5000 price tag.

This Trader system we use, on the other hand, has the unique opportunity for Any seller with 2 accounts to manipulate and basically have the system Lie about the price of items. Actual real situation - Motif recipes for a specific style go for 5000 - 10000. Except for one piece. It goes for 197,777 - no matter which trader you go to. Reason? Account 1 puts a piece up for sale at 200k. He then buys it with Account 2 - and thus the ADDons that everyone relies on 'claim' the piece sells for an average of 197,777. Maybe you think that 197,777 for a single motif recipe is "relatively affordable".

Players do NOT have the options to see what every item listed is going for. They are limited to whatever trader they can physically find. Traders rely on 'data' from Addons, which is more easily manipulated than trying to corner a market with a GAH. Probably another reason some people are so strongly against the GAH.

3) Stealing for half an hour is going to get you 100k? Oh please. As if selling 110 items to the fence will give you that amount of gold. And of course stealing doesn't carry any negative aspects of its own when you fail. If it wasn't clear, that was sarcasm.

4) Why are you so hung up on making sure gold 'leaves' the economy? Without methods of Rigging prices, the way we have it now, people will pay what they think an item is worth. If they don't like the price, they go out and Earn it the hard way. But the cost of an item is irrelevant, be it 10g, 1000g, or 100,000g. It is whatever the market will bear.

I played Archeage Fresh Start server. The first 3 days an Apex could be sold for 50 gold. Why? because there was no gold available yet. 50 gold most character did not even have yet. A month later Apex is selling for 200 gold. 6 months later its at 800 gold. Simply because there is more gold in the economy. Yesterday I sold one for 1600 gold, and it sold in 7 minutes.

How much gold is in the system vs how much is leaving is irrelevant. The system will balance itself, so long as its not as simple to Rig prices like our current system is.


IMHO



EDIT: Just wanted to add - I just got the mail from my Trading Guild. Seems we lost out on our Trader this week. So now, if I have something to sell this week, I am not ALLOWED to put it out for sale to everyone in the game. I am only allowed to sell to members of the Guild. However, just to be clear, they mention that Guild Dues are still required even though we lost out on a Trader. They hope - that is : HOPE - to get the trader back next week.

Such a wonderful system we have in this game, he said with extreme sarcasm.

do you think that selling crowns is a totally cool method to make gold? because this is what buying and selling crates amounts to. so called balanced economy. you are literally claiming that everything is cool cause you can just OPEN YOUR WALLET. that the fact that in game methods are *** poor if you happen not to be a serious raider, and/or someone who's been playing the game long enough to accumulate the funds. that its totaly fine that newer players have almost no recourse when it comes to buying in game items other then OPENING UP THEIR WALLETS. really? balanced?

GAH makes shopping and selling more convenient. that's it. it. is. more. convenient. which in itself is a major thing, however, its NOT some magical price fix. I have played too many games where things were NOT in fact affordable unless they are obsolete or inconsequential in some other ways.

stealing for half an hour will get you 15k. which is what you can find a good number of weapons or jewelry for. stealing for couple of hours across multiple characters - will get you 100k.

I am hung up on gold leaving economy, because SIGNIFICANTLY MORE GOLD ENTERING ECONOMY THAN LEAVING IT IS HOW YOU GET EXTREME INFLATION AND PRICES SO HIGH THAT ONLY SELECT FEW CAN AFFORD TO BUY ANYTHING AND NEWER/CASUAL PLAYERS ARE SOL. if we remove our most reliable gold sink - guess what? you will no longer have that option to steal for a few hours and buy that 100k item the very same day. because the price of that item is going to be one million now. or even 10 million. again, i have seen this happen, over and over and over again, in multiple games that didn't have a good currency sink to balance out the currency generation through non trading gameplay. because that balancing out you keep talking about? forgets all about someone NOT being a trader, playing just casually, still only having acess to the gold that they can get through gameplay alone. when something costs 50 gold - and quests reward 50 gold. its fine. when something costs 5k gold, but quests STILL reward 50 gold? you end up with the situation you are, ironically, complaining about where prices are just so high, fix it developers. so what do you do, increase quest rewards? that just results in prices.. "balancing" to be even higher!

the reason your trading guild is still asking for dues is to make sure that you do NOT lose your trader next week. they are going to need to up the bid and all that, to insure that.

is that ideal? no. no its not. but YOUR FIX IS NOT BETTER IN A LONG TERM. this is all that we are saying. your fix is at best a short term bandaid.
well that and our trading system is at this point a part of identity and culture of the game, warts and all. removing it, is going to have dire consequences.

Trying to stay out of the rest of this, but one thing's sticking out to me-- the focus on new players. Going back to my time as a n00b, the trader system didn't serve me in the slightest. I tried multiple times to replace aging gear below level 50, and every time I tried to shop for something, the traders had absolutely zero that wasn't at least CP 160. Sometimes I could snag a few crafting mats, but most of the time the traders were totally useless to me.

Contrast that to a healthy GAH, say in GW2 or SWTOR, where you can find basic gear and lower level crafting mats at fairly reasonable prices. Plus, vendors had basic gear for sale to fit in the missing pieces. ESO's a gear wasteland for those just beginning the game. And the fact that available slots in trading guilds are so limited ensures that very few low level players will even be able to sell their excess.

If you're fairly casual and past CP 160, the trader system might work for you. Below that, though, when the game is hardest, the trading system likes to stick its tongue out at you and say, "Neener, neener, nothing for you here!"

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

Barney, stop deluding yourself that Fang Lair chests sells for far more than the other pages in the motif because of market manipulation. It sells for far more because there is far more demand, as it allows people to outfit themselves skimpily.

Not true. All other pieces sell for 5 - 10k and there were fewer of the other pieces to be found than the chest pieces.. Setting the price at 197,777 just guarantees I buy it from the crown store, and in the process get the entire motif.

Sure is some brilliant trader strategy he said sarcastically

it IS actualy true. that chest is more expensive that even scalecaller chest, because is skimpy and closest thing you can get to Dark shaman costume. we had somilar thing happening with mazzatun pants cause its one of the few short skirts in a game. all the other pieces are far less in demand and thanks to anniversary event - are far more common. now, 200k is still a bit much, IMO, given that anniversary event made them more available, but that just means the seller's listing will sit there collecting dust and they will either have to lower the price or just not sell. if you'd rather buy it from crown store - that is your choice and a seller's loss. still not market manipulation. Fang lair is a pain to farm and chest doesn't drop very often to boot. now that its been a few months since anniversary event - prices for motifs are going up again.

but hey.. if you'd like to do your own farming and don't have a group to farm vet fang lair with, you COULD always just run a whole lot of battlegrounds and soon enough get a chest that looks almost identical to Fang Lair chest.

I picked up mazzatun skirt for around 20k. Fact is the Wood Elf medium shows more skin on females than Fang lair and you don't have to deal with the forearms being covered - which is part of the fang lair top. Is Fang lair rare to farm? Sure. But farming is certainly Not the only way to get it. Events boxes, it pops - that's how I got it on my first account. Have a subscription? Unless you had 0 credits to start with, in 3 months you can just buy the whole motif from the crown store - and in the process you don't have to buy ANY pieces from Sellers. You'd have a better point if you were talking about something that can't be bought in the crown store - but most of those items can't be Sold either.

But this is all a tangent. The point is the simple manipulation. When I spent a couple hours going to all the traders I could find, I found 8 chest pieces. EVERY ONE of them had the 197,777 price tag. I find it hard to believe that each seller road around for two hours, and the first person saw one at 197,777, and decided that was a good price to list it. If they are Sellers, on PC, (which is what I am on) they are going to use the addons. They check the addon and they see what the item has 'sold for'.

And THAT is the easiest thing in This trader system to Rig. It just takes 2 accounts. Account 1 sells for a ridiculous price, Account 2 buys it back. Rinse and repeat if you want. It is not costing the manipulator much, and they will make that gold back. So now it is registered in the Addons as having sold for the ridiculous price. Every other Seller checks the addon and thinks that people are really paying that much for the item. This is Waaaaayyy easier than trying to corner the market in a GAH.

IMHO

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

Barney, stop deluding yourself that Fang Lair chests sells for far more than the other pages in the motif because of market manipulation. It sells for far more because there is far more demand, as it allows people to outfit themselves skimpily.

Not true. All other pieces sell for 5 - 10k and there were fewer of the other pieces to be found than the chest pieces.. Setting the price at 197,777 just guarantees I buy it from the crown store, and in the process get the entire motif.

Sure is some brilliant trader strategy he said sarcastically

it IS actualy true. that chest is more expensive that even scalecaller chest, because is skimpy and closest thing you can get to Dark shaman costume. we had somilar thing happening with mazzatun pants cause its one of the few short skirts in a game. all the other pieces are far less in demand and thanks to anniversary event - are far more common. now, 200k is still a bit much, IMO, given that anniversary event made them more available, but that just means the seller's listing will sit there collecting dust and they will either have to lower the price or just not sell. if you'd rather buy it from crown store - that is your choice and a seller's loss. still not market manipulation. Fang lair is a pain to farm and chest doesn't drop very often to boot. now that its been a few months since anniversary event - prices for motifs are going up again.

but hey.. if you'd like to do your own farming and don't have a group to farm vet fang lair with, you COULD always just run a whole lot of battlegrounds and soon enough get a chest that looks almost identical to Fang Lair chest.

I picked up mazzatun skirt for around 20k. Fact is the Wood Elf medium shows more skin on females than Fang lair and you don't have to deal with the forearms being covered - which is part of the fang lair top. Is Fang lair rare to farm? Sure. But farming is certainly Not the only way to get it. Events boxes, it pops - that's how I got it on my first account. Have a subscription? Unless you had 0 credits to start with, in 3 months you can just buy the whole motif from the crown store - and in the process you don't have to buy ANY pieces from Sellers. You'd have a better point if you were talking about something that can't be bought in the crown store - but most of those items can't be Sold either.

But this is all a tangent. The point is the simple manipulation. When I spent a couple hours going to all the traders I could find, I found 8 chest pieces. EVERY ONE of them had the 197,777 price tag. I find it hard to believe that each seller road around for two hours, and the first person saw one at 197,777, and decided that was a good price to list it. If they are Sellers, on PC, (which is what I am on) they are going to use the addons. They check the addon and they see what the item has 'sold for'.

And THAT is the easiest thing in This trader system to Rig. It just takes 2 accounts. Account 1 sells for a ridiculous price, Account 2 buys it back. Rinse and repeat if you want. It is not costing the manipulator much, and they will make that gold back. So now it is registered in the Addons as having sold for the ridiculous price. Every other Seller checks the addon and thinks that people are really paying that much for the item. This is Waaaaayyy easier than trying to corner the market in a GAH.

IMHO

not sold for. listed for. and guess what? THIS SAME THING COULD AND DOES HAPPEN WITH GLOBAL TRADING. exactly the same thing and you don't even need 2 accounts for it. its actualy EASIER to do with global AH, because you don't have to travel around to buy all the listings to relist them. addons will still show the listing price (or if you are lazy like me, you just search for an item, see the other listed items, undercut it just slightly to put it at the top of the list and call it a day) and people will still try to list at it, and if they don't - their listing will be gone soon enough, leaving behind only your "average" price. i have seen it happen in WoW with rare pets and mounts and occasional transmog pieces. I have seen it happen in SWTOR. i have seen it happen in Neverwinter and SWL and GW2. people for the most part are going to try and list at an average. maybe slightly bellow average but not significantly so. and if you think that once in a blue moon someone doesn't come around and try to manipulate it with varying degree of success? i have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you. heck - you make this game global, its going to happen MORE often.

I bought mazatun skirt for a lot more then 20k. but thats because I bought it years ago, when it used to be rarer. shadows of hist was out 2 years longer then Fang lair (edited to correct the duration, hist was released in 2016 and Dragon Bones in 2018). the motif had a chance to drop in MULTIPLE anniversary events. it its now easier dungeon to farm then Fang lair. next year? Fang lair everything is going to be more common.

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

Barney, stop deluding yourself that Fang Lair chests sells for far more than the other pages in the motif because of market manipulation. It sells for far more because there is far more demand, as it allows people to outfit themselves skimpily.

Not true. All other pieces sell for 5 - 10k and there were fewer of the other pieces to be found than the chest pieces.. Setting the price at 197,777 just guarantees I buy it from the crown store, and in the process get the entire motif.

Sure is some brilliant trader strategy he said sarcastically

it IS actualy true. that chest is more expensive that even scalecaller chest, because is skimpy and closest thing you can get to Dark shaman costume. we had somilar thing happening with mazzatun pants cause its one of the few short skirts in a game. all the other pieces are far less in demand and thanks to anniversary event - are far more common. now, 200k is still a bit much, IMO, given that anniversary event made them more available, but that just means the seller's listing will sit there collecting dust and they will either have to lower the price or just not sell. if you'd rather buy it from crown store - that is your choice and a seller's loss. still not market manipulation. Fang lair is a pain to farm and chest doesn't drop very often to boot. now that its been a few months since anniversary event - prices for motifs are going up again.

but hey.. if you'd like to do your own farming and don't have a group to farm vet fang lair with, you COULD always just run a whole lot of battlegrounds and soon enough get a chest that looks almost identical to Fang Lair chest.

I picked up mazzatun skirt for around 20k. Fact is the Wood Elf medium shows more skin on females than Fang lair and you don't have to deal with the forearms being covered - which is part of the fang lair top. Is Fang lair rare to farm? Sure. But farming is certainly Not the only way to get it. Events boxes, it pops - that's how I got it on my first account. Have a subscription? Unless you had 0 credits to start with, in 3 months you can just buy the whole motif from the crown store - and in the process you don't have to buy ANY pieces from Sellers. You'd have a better point if you were talking about something that can't be bought in the crown store - but most of those items can't be Sold either.

But this is all a tangent. The point is the simple manipulation. When I spent a couple hours going to all the traders I could find, I found 8 chest pieces. EVERY ONE of them had the 197,777 price tag. I find it hard to believe that each seller road around for two hours, and the first person saw one at 197,777, and decided that was a good price to list it. If they are Sellers, on PC, (which is what I am on) they are going to use the addons. They check the addon and they see what the item has 'sold for'.

And THAT is the easiest thing in This trader system to Rig. It just takes 2 accounts. Account 1 sells for a ridiculous price, Account 2 buys it back. Rinse and repeat if you want. It is not costing the manipulator much, and they will make that gold back. So now it is registered in the Addons as having sold for the ridiculous price. Every other Seller checks the addon and thinks that people are really paying that much for the item. This is Waaaaayyy easier than trying to corner the market in a GAH.

IMHO

not sold for. listed for. and guess what? THIS SAME THING COULD AND DOES HAPPEN WITH GLOBAL TRADING. exactly the same thing and you don't even need 2 accounts for it. its actualy EASIER to do with global AH, because you don't have to travel around to buy all the listings to relist them. addons will still show the listing price (or if you are lazy like me, you just search for an item, see the other listed items, undercut it just slightly to put it at the top of the list and call it a day) and people will still try to list at it, and if they don't - their listing will be gone soon enough, leaving behind only your "average" price. i have seen it happen in WoW with rare pets and mounts and occasional transmog pieces. I have seen it happen in SWTOR. i have seen it happen in Neverwinter and SWL and GW2. people for the most part are going to try and list at an average. maybe slightly bellow average but not significantly so. and if you think that once in a blue moon someone doesn't come around and try to manipulate it with varying degree of success? i have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you. heck - you make this game global, its going to happen MORE often.

I bought mazatun skirt for a lot more then 20k. but thats because I bought it years ago, when it used to be rarer. shadows of hist was out 2 years longer then Fang lair (edited to correct the duration, hist was released in 2016 and Dragon Bones in 2018). the motif had a chance to drop in MULTIPLE anniversary events. it its now easier dungeon to farm then Fang lair. next year? Fang lair everything is going to be more common.

The difference using the GAH is quantity. No one is Denied the ability to put items up for sale the way this current system does. That means Every character in the game with items to sell Can list them on the GAH. It much more difficult to corner a market and try to buy everything with the intention of flipping because of the sheer amount of resources needed up front, as well as the amount needed to continuously buy every new listing of said item.

Our Trader system Denies players the ability to put items up for sale. That's a Fact. The numbers have already been shown. There is a finite number of traders and a Finite number of players allowed into a Trading guild. You do not get a lot of ' buy everything and resell it higher' with a GAH because of the sheer volume of players that can list items. Even iuf someone Does pull it off on some item, it doesn't last. one individual cannot keep up with the demand Every day to buy the items other people list.

If there is One thing that is just plain Wrong about this game, it is that All paying players are Not ALLOWED to put items up for sale.

IMHO

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

Barney, stop deluding yourself that Fang Lair chests sells for far more than the other pages in the motif because of market manipulation. It sells for far more because there is far more demand, as it allows people to outfit themselves skimpily.

Not true. All other pieces sell for 5 - 10k and there were fewer of the other pieces to be found than the chest pieces.. Setting the price at 197,777 just guarantees I buy it from the crown store, and in the process get the entire motif.

Sure is some brilliant trader strategy he said sarcastically

it IS actualy true. that chest is more expensive that even scalecaller chest, because is skimpy and closest thing you can get to Dark shaman costume. we had somilar thing happening with mazzatun pants cause its one of the few short skirts in a game. all the other pieces are far less in demand and thanks to anniversary event - are far more common. now, 200k is still a bit much, IMO, given that anniversary event made them more available, but that just means the seller's listing will sit there collecting dust and they will either have to lower the price or just not sell. if you'd rather buy it from crown store - that is your choice and a seller's loss. still not market manipulation. Fang lair is a pain to farm and chest doesn't drop very often to boot. now that its been a few months since anniversary event - prices for motifs are going up again.

but hey.. if you'd like to do your own farming and don't have a group to farm vet fang lair with, you COULD always just run a whole lot of battlegrounds and soon enough get a chest that looks almost identical to Fang Lair chest.

I picked up mazzatun skirt for around 20k. Fact is the Wood Elf medium shows more skin on females than Fang lair and you don't have to deal with the forearms being covered - which is part of the fang lair top. Is Fang lair rare to farm? Sure. But farming is certainly Not the only way to get it. Events boxes, it pops - that's how I got it on my first account. Have a subscription? Unless you had 0 credits to start with, in 3 months you can just buy the whole motif from the crown store - and in the process you don't have to buy ANY pieces from Sellers. You'd have a better point if you were talking about something that can't be bought in the crown store - but most of those items can't be Sold either.

But this is all a tangent. The point is the simple manipulation. When I spent a couple hours going to all the traders I could find, I found 8 chest pieces. EVERY ONE of them had the 197,777 price tag. I find it hard to believe that each seller road around for two hours, and the first person saw one at 197,777, and decided that was a good price to list it. If they are Sellers, on PC, (which is what I am on) they are going to use the addons. They check the addon and they see what the item has 'sold for'.

And THAT is the easiest thing in This trader system to Rig. It just takes 2 accounts. Account 1 sells for a ridiculous price, Account 2 buys it back. Rinse and repeat if you want. It is not costing the manipulator much, and they will make that gold back. So now it is registered in the Addons as having sold for the ridiculous price. Every other Seller checks the addon and thinks that people are really paying that much for the item. This is Waaaaayyy easier than trying to corner the market in a GAH.

IMHO

not sold for. listed for. and guess what? THIS SAME THING COULD AND DOES HAPPEN WITH GLOBAL TRADING. exactly the same thing and you don't even need 2 accounts for it. its actualy EASIER to do with global AH, because you don't have to travel around to buy all the listings to relist them. addons will still show the listing price (or if you are lazy like me, you just search for an item, see the other listed items, undercut it just slightly to put it at the top of the list and call it a day) and people will still try to list at it, and if they don't - their listing will be gone soon enough, leaving behind only your "average" price. i have seen it happen in WoW with rare pets and mounts and occasional transmog pieces. I have seen it happen in SWTOR. i have seen it happen in Neverwinter and SWL and GW2. people for the most part are going to try and list at an average. maybe slightly bellow average but not significantly so. and if you think that once in a blue moon someone doesn't come around and try to manipulate it with varying degree of success? i have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you. heck - you make this game global, its going to happen MORE often.

I bought mazatun skirt for a lot more then 20k. but thats because I bought it years ago, when it used to be rarer. shadows of hist was out 2 years longer then Fang lair (edited to correct the duration, hist was released in 2016 and Dragon Bones in 2018). the motif had a chance to drop in MULTIPLE anniversary events. it its now easier dungeon to farm then Fang lair. next year? Fang lair everything is going to be more common.

The difference using the GAH is quantity. No one is Denied the ability to put items up for sale the way this current system does. That means Every character in the game with items to sell Can list them on the GAH. It much more difficult to corner a market and try to buy everything with the intention of flipping because of the sheer amount of resources needed up front, as well as the amount needed to continuously buy every new listing of said item.

Our Trader system Denies players the ability to put items up for sale. That's a Fact. The numbers have already been shown. There is a finite number of traders and a Finite number of players allowed into a Trading guild. You do not get a lot of ' buy everything and resell it higher' with a GAH because of the sheer volume of players that can list items. Even iuf someone Does pull it off on some item, it doesn't last. one individual cannot keep up with the demand Every day to buy the items other people list.

If there is One thing that is just plain Wrong about this game, it is that All paying players are Not ALLOWED to put items up for sale.

IMHO

sigh. /shakes head. while yes, global trading system is theoretically more accessible to more people, a lot of people STILL don't use it to sell things. becasue they don't want to. moreover, becasue everything is centralized, its EASIER to keep track of everything that gets listed and buy up the outliers. the reason manipulation fails sooner or later, whether its ESO or any game with global trading system is exactly the same. people think there is a demand. people start farming more. market gets flooded. budding manipulator gives up. one individual cannot exactly keep up with manipulating ESO system either. there are just too many locations and too many people listing. yes, even in out limiting system, becasue there are a LOT of guilds and not as many people who want to utilize these guilds. literally, one individual in ESO cannot keep up with trying to manipulate common enough items in ESO, anymore than they can in centralized trading systems. meanwhile, i have personaly seen people corner market on rare drops in WoW. when you see pages of listings and they are all from the same name. I have seen this in SWTOR as well. it doesn't last unless the item is sufficiently rare to guarantee that supply is not going to be overwhelming. but it DOES happen. consistently.

getting into trading guilds in ESO is far easier than people make it out to be, and no, you do NOT need to be in a top guild to make decent income. good locations have higher traffic and things sell faster, but that's the thing, even in not ideal locations - things still sell!.

you are not forced to buy from major guild trader only. you can travel around and look for deals the same way your hypothetical market manipulators do!

and once again, i'm not against allowing everyone to list whether they are in a guild or not, I'm not against global trade systems on principle, on the contrary. all i'm saying while you are not listening is - GLOBAL TRADING DOES NOT FIX PRICING "ISSUES" THAT YOU KEEP INSISTING EXISTS WITH ESO. global systems have exact. same. pricing. "issues"

Well, you are welcome to that belief, but I'm pretty sure you are wrong.

In a GAH, where Every person in the game who wants to can list theirs, if ALL the Fang Lair chest pieces were listed, I guarantee they would not ALL be at 197,777. You might find that when it was first listed, but there would a whole string of options listed after that, each new listing undercutting the previous one.

That is how the open market Should work. With Everyone being allowed to be involved.

IMHO