jaws343 wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I believe there are 195+ vendors in the game at the moment (not counting Cyrodiil). That means 195+ guilds that have traders. Is it really that hard to join one of those to make some money?

Also if some players are buying up something and “price gouging” the general population, I want to know what those items are. This way I can sell it too at slightly lower prices to make some serious gold.

Yes it is because with 195 Vendors at 500 slots per guild that means only 97,500 slots available for active players. Now considering that a lot of people in the Trading game are in multiple trading guilds that means even less slots than that for everyone else. ZOS boasts 11+ million accounts, which we know is not active but with even a fraction of that running around in the game the actual slots for traders is still insignificant. This means the player economy is accessible at any given time to only a small portion of the active playerbase.

So again. Yes it is hard to join one of those guilds to make money.

As someone who is in multiple trading guilds, not a single one of them is full. So these magical players who cannot get into a trading guild aren't looking hard enough.

Are you incapable of doing simple math? Filled or not, the slots are not enough. Thought that was quite clear but apparently some of you need spoonfed.

If the current slots aren't even full, then the math suggests that there aren't enough players interested in filling those spots. Simple math right?

It's like, there are 11 million players but the PVP servers aren't capable of handling that many players. And still, of the servers we do have, only 1 is full on each platform.

Correlation does not imply causation in regards to both. Im not even sure if you play this game if you think that low numbers in PvP is due to lack of interest and not the horrendous conditions PvP. So if you cant even come to a correct conclusion on something painfully obvious like that, why am I bothering to discuss Kiosks with you?

Censered wrote: »

A lot of these people arguing for this system seem to have never played another MMO before yet are claiming the farmers market system is better than the free market system. They are either without the knowledge of how systems work or their arguments are intentionally without integrity because they are they ones profiting the most off of this.

First off more competition means less inflation and potential for abuse. That's literally one of the most basic facts of economics.

In other games you can buy everything and relist it just like here but it's commonly two to three hundred percent not one to ten thousand percent. Because everyone is involved in the economy they will soon be undercut over and over especially by new people who want money now so that is what controls inflation.

except most of us HAD played other MMO's and are aware of advantages and disadvantages of centralized systems. and what a lot of us are saying is that you are wrong when you say that markups do NOT happen nearly as much in centralized systems. they absolutely do. inflation happens in any and all systems that do not have a stable, continuous gold sink implemented. off the top of my head - swtor. had a HORRIBLE inflation that is STILl ongoing. why? because at one point they increased credit generation AND allowed a bug to go on far too long that allowed large influx of credits into the system but... they never bothered taking those credits out OR even adding enough proper credit sinks to balance out all those credits you got from quests. as a result - regular players who just play casually can NOT afford anything that is relevant to actual gameplay. it seems like million credits is a lot, but its barely a drop in a bucket.

are centralized trade systems convenient? YES. YES THEY ARE. do they make it easier, in theory for casual player to list things? YES. YES they do. do they make shopping experience more convenient and faster? yes. but and here is the main question - DO THEY MAKE ITEMS MORE AFFORDABLE AND PREVENT ARBITRATION? ABSOLUTELY NOT. in every MMO I have played and I played my fair share, heck let me tell you about my recent experience in WoW. a game I have been playing on and off since Burning Crusade. Blizzard messed up economy back in Warlords of Draenor. you see, they introduced these super easy Garrison missions. anyone can run them. you can be "plays only on weekends" casual and make gold with them in conciderable amounts. but they did NOT introduce proper gold sinks. and inflation... went... NUTS. so they made it a little harder to make gold this way in Legion, but still for the most part left it in, because THEY know that not everyone wants to bother with selling but a lot of people are interested in buying, whether from npc vendors or Ah itself. not only it was too little too late, but it wasn't nearly enough. so no in BFA.. we have a result. they are trying to reduce gold generated from in game activities, and so average casual cannot really afford much of anything. items they have acess to sell are oversaturated and because WoW is a game where everything that came before the most recent expansion - is obsolete? those obsolete items don't sell for much at all. the only way to genuinely, truly make gold - is to not be a casual. for all the accesibility, the end result is virtualy the same except here, in THIS game? because we HAVE reliable gold sinks, causal player can go steal for half an hour and be able to afford to buy that spinner's staff the very. same. day.

would I love it if shopping in ESO was NOT a prolonged experience? YES. YES I WOULD. however... from all the MMO's that I have played, whether I dabbled for a few months (Final Fantasy, Aion, Allods, Rift, LOTRO, DnD online and a few more I cannot remember right now, casue I didn't stick around long enough), or played for years (like WoW, guild wars 2, Secret world and its reboot- legends, SWTOR, Neverwinter - just to name a few - all games with centralized trading) - none of them had a system that was as effective as what ESO has when it comes to keeping items relatively affordable, allowing for players who do NOT wish to sell, still afford to buy things they may need or want with relatively low amount of grinding, compared to other games. and all of it thanks to guild trader bids. do you have any good ideas, legitimately good, working ideas that can replace guild trader fees at being as effective and consistent at removing gold out of the economy?

the only suggestion that I personaly i think could work is adding a centralized vendor ala Pirrari the smuggler. someone who charges extra fee for convenience of both listing and buying without having to be in a guild, or having to go to a guild kiosk. allows to buy anything from ANY trader, but you have to pay extra for it.

Linaleah wrote: »

but seriously though, i'm a super extra casual trader, if you can even call it that. main reason i decided to join a trading guild was becasue my bags were filling up with stuff I was getting as I was playing and some of those stuff, like duplicate recipes, looked like would get me far more gold if I sold it to other players, vs vendoring it. plus housing was released and while initially, I made the gold via in game means, trading can help with that (and you know, those aforementioned recipes that kept piling up). once I asked around about how trading actualy works? it was incredibly anticlimactically easy to get in. my first trading guild actualy invited ME out of the blue. they had a middle of nowhere location, just a starting super casual no minimums just be online every once in a while kind of requirements. it gave me a taste of how system worked. my next guild i saw advertisement in general chat for - and whispered to ask to join. there was a guild I was in for a while, that i found on official forums. one of my current guilds? most recent one? I found through guild finder. its not. that. hard.

We are not arguing that it is hard to get into a trading guild. We are arguing that there are not enough traders to go around for the trading guilds that are out there that want to trade. IMO the current system is not "fine" (@Vajrak), but it would be much more palatable if they added more traders to the system to allow more guilds to trade to everyone.

Personally, my preference would be a global AH, but in an effort to keep the current system, I think it would work better with more traders.

As I have stated in other posts, My goal is to be able to go to the local traders looking for materials or consumables and be able to actually find reasonable listings for what I am looking for. Finding no listings or 2K for one alchemy mat is not acceptable/reasonable to me.

Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

but seriously though, i'm a super extra casual trader, if you can even call it that. main reason i decided to join a trading guild was becasue my bags were filling up with stuff I was getting as I was playing and some of those stuff, like duplicate recipes, looked like would get me far more gold if I sold it to other players, vs vendoring it. plus housing was released and while initially, I made the gold via in game means, trading can help with that (and you know, those aforementioned recipes that kept piling up). once I asked around about how trading actualy works? it was incredibly anticlimactically easy to get in. my first trading guild actualy invited ME out of the blue. they had a middle of nowhere location, just a starting super casual no minimums just be online every once in a while kind of requirements. it gave me a taste of how system worked. my next guild i saw advertisement in general chat for - and whispered to ask to join. there was a guild I was in for a while, that i found on official forums. one of my current guilds? most recent one? I found through guild finder. its not. that. hard.

We are not arguing that it is hard to get into a trading guild. We are arguing that there are not enough traders to go around for the trading guilds that are out there that want to trade. IMO the current system is not "fine" (@Vajrak), but it would be much more palatable if they added more traders to the system to allow more guilds to trade to everyone.

Personally, my preference would be a global AH, but in an effort to keep the current system, I think it would work better with more traders.

As I have stated in other posts, My goal is to be able to go to the local traders looking for materials or consumables and be able to actually find reasonable listings for what I am looking for. Finding no listings or 2K for one alchemy mat is not acceptable/reasonable to me.

more traders will make it harder to find reasonably priced items as the listings are going to be even more spreadout. what you want is more traders in highly in demand spots. which... might not be a bad thing at all, but its not going to make those bids cheaper and trading guilds that are just starting out - will have to work up from cheaper, more out of the way traders - STILL.

every time a story chapter or DLC is added - more traders are added to the system. its still competitive, but more traders ARE added. some of those traders, on PC na at least are actualy held by guilds that are not even primarily trading guilds in their focus. if these guilds can break in and stay in... those new trading guilds that cannot? need to figure out their edge, their niche. and I mean... one of my earliest trading guilds used to be in a fairly mediocre location. not as low traffic as a singular trader by the wayshrine in a wilderness somewhere, but on the lower location tier. their trader is, last I checked - is now in Elden Root. so...

the thing about ESO is that if you want to get anywhere significant - you have to invest time and more importantly, patience. even a casual, play only on weekends player can find a little bit of time for that, but you cannot avoid it. and its not just trading. every part of the game asks you to be in for the long haul if you want to get anywhere. its just part of the game's culture.

I HATE having to go shopping in this game. Even using TTC it's a pain. I'm in ONE trade guild. I got up to a million gold ONCE when I really dedicated myself for a couple of months. Now I tend to sit anywhere from 100k to 500k. I STILL hate this system, not because of trade guilds, but because it's an unwieldy, user unfriendly, pain in the arse. Between load screens, endless traveling, and things just freezing up or kicking you out (when I sell things though the trader I belong to it's a constant hassle of "wait until previous transaction is finished" hell) . Flat out, the system is VERY POORLY designed. And the people doing the buying are constantly getting the short end of the stick.

@MornaBaine I agree. By design or by chance this system is too easy for the greedy to manipulate and abuse, and so in-turn it’s defended by the greedy.


“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.”

Edward Abbey

MojaveHeld wrote: »

So, the current trading system helps immensely to control inflation and has spawned numerous guilds that offer their members fantastic experiences beyond trading (social events, trials, PvE events' etc.). Compared to that, the downsides of noobs not just being able to sell their stuff as soon as they want without joining one of hundreds of guilds (many of which have no fees or dues) are incredibly minor. Seems like the only vile thing about this trading system is that there are ignorant players who mindlessly screech about hating it, for completely baseless and invalid reasons.

But it's not hundreds of trading guilds. Its only 210 trading guilds that can get a trader. I think that number needs to be larger than 210. at least 300 and maybe 400. If they doubled the number of traders in the existing locations, that would be 420 trading guilds able to get a trader.

SCSpecter wrote: »

jdamuso wrote: »

pelle412 wrote: »

I'll read ALL your comments and commented on each one.

jdamuso wrote: »

The trader re-selling and trade guild price gouging is disgusting. anything and everything worth buying is constantly being bought up by players with billions of gold and being re-sold at unreasonable prices. The amount of gold being farmed out of the game is obscene and being filtered into the pocket of a handful of the community creating an economically dystopian capitalist garbage dump.

Yes this does happen. It's a trading mini game. The current kiosk system makes this much harder. In a different centralized trading system, the people who enjoy doing this could do it much faster and easier. I don't think people have billions of gold.

jdamuso wrote: »

Howabout account binding items sold through traders huh?

That has nothing to do with the current trading system. It's a game design limit.

jdamuso wrote: »

Even to obtain a trader you have to compete with this garbage, which is just encouraging the practice...

What is "garbage"? Bidding on trader kiosks? Lucky for you, you don't have to. By joining a trading guild, their officers do this for you. Problem solved.

jdamuso wrote: »

And before you come back with some snub retort to the point.... empirical evidence: the cheapest purple inferno staff of a mother's sorrow on the market is 55k yet there are well over 260 of this item available on the market right now. Suggesting there is not the demand for the supply. If it was rare enough to be so valuable then okay. but they are clearly its not that rare if there are 260 of it not being sold...

If you need a staff so bad, farm it yourself. If noone's gonna buy those staves at the listed prices, the sellers will relist at lower prices. No serious trader wants to have stalled inventory.

jdamuso wrote: »

Now the problem is... EVERYTHING is being bought and re-sold..... EVERYTHING that will sell AT ALL. and being marked up 500-3000% regardless of the demand....

Your numbers are ridiculous of course. Dreugh wax for example would then be listed for 180k a piece?

jdamuso wrote: »

Trade system is broken... the add-ons allowed to interfere make it worse... The economy in this game is one of the worst ive seen EVER in 30 years of gaming... Its an abomination.

Yet here you are.

jdamuso wrote: »

The only saving grace of this game... is that i dont mind farming stuff myself, and thank the lord for that, because the economy is a complete embarrassment.

Good for you. Farming and selling stuff is fun.

There's one comment, and glad you went and re-read. it if you read any more of them you would see that i do not need the staff, as well as garbage being referred to as the filtering of most of the gold in the game into the select few. You realize that there is one person that even declares that he owns four guilds with four traders. and thats just one guy. If one guy can have four traders. and there 195/4 that leaves about 50 traders for the community of tens of thousands of players.

dreugh wax is sold for 2.5k regularly and priced up to 6k which is nearly 300% as stated. A spinners inferno staff placed on the market a 15k (a reasonable value for an overfarmed overland set) is marked up to 150K is a 1000% mark up. Dont even want to talk about what happens to a rare motif. so no they are not ridiculous numbers ofcourse.

People buy the staves at the listed prices because there is no chance at a lower price because the prices are gouged. And they prolly have to much money from gouging items themselves that tossing away 150k for not rare items isnt a big deal.

people do have billions of gold, watch some youtubes and when they open thier inventory and you see 999999945 gold....

binding items on sale would not only dump items removing them from the game but prevent re-sellability. and as another stated above, consumables and crafting materials maybe should be exempt.

and yet here i am. trying to work out the bugs and find solutions that benefit the entire community in general and make the game economy system and game in general better for everyone. not just the select few that love to exploit any system that they can.

If you had read, i also encouraged any other creative ideas on how to better this system. again the fact that the thread is ongoing clearly suggests that there are in fact issues, else itd be laughed off and ignored.

The existence of something or the length of something does not in fact mean that there is an issue or a point is valid. It could mean that a lot of people disagree with you as well as a lot of people agree with you. Broad stroke statements generally get debates no where.

I am not saying your complaints are right or wrong, I could go either way with it.

My only thing I believe you are dead wrong on is binding on sell or purchase however you want to word it. I have countless times purchased a piece of gear for a friend that I knew they need and they aren't online and the price was good.

I also believe that saying since only 100k or so people can sell things in traders so therefore the system is unfair would hold more weight if every guild with a trader was full. This simply is not the case, I am in 2 guilds that have traders and they are not full at the moment.

You aren't wrong that the current system is flawed heavily but its not as vile as you make out, one fix IMO would be to allow you to search all guild traders on the server without traveling to them if you don't want.

As far as your youtuber comment about them having a billion gold........ almost every single one makes their youtube videos on PTS so they have every thing the need. I would bet the number of people with a billion gold on any given server is in the single digits.

Well i can stand for a different type of fix.. the bind on sale to me is just the most obvious, and yea i can see the issue with buying for a friend. Im not heart set THIS fix. However there's a trend in eso like in no other game that the market cornering is out of control. Ive seen it in EVERY game. so i am not opposed to some item flipping, and market cornering. this is just rampant though. Ive never seen n any game ever where EVERYTHING WORTH SELLING is being cornered.. most game simply do not have enough gold for players to corner a market this hard.. but with eso dudes got buckets of money. and buy up everything and re-establish prices to what they WANT the market price to be...

Personal i dont care how it is fixed. MORE creative ideas on what to do to stabilize this trend. some kind of oversight. some limitations.

some way to deal with it... more gold sink. less gold income. i dont know how this game got this bad. im not 100% sure how to fix it.. all i know is that i have never seen a virtual market "HANDLED" by the players to this extreme anywhere else. ANd i have played ALOT of games.

Im just a gamer, some of my perceptions are in-accurate. the only people that have access to all the numbers are ZOS and maybe TTC. hell TTC prolly has a better record.

Im just tried of running from one trader to the next for any and every item, to see it swept away and then see the same item marked up on TTC moments later... over and over again... i have a life i do not have the time to sit in front of TTC 25 hours a day to swipe up everything that comes along. or to swipe up a deal or a fair price..... and the mark up values are simply obnoxious... theres 10 of said item listed for 10k over the last 5 hours. go look for them all gone. 10 of the same item listed in the last 5 minutes for 50k, 60k, 75k. Im sorry that's obnoxious. and it happens 24/7 all day every day.. theres thousands of players just buying up everything on the market every single minute and raising the price.....

And for all these inflation comments ^ this is NOT inflation. This ^ is market cornering. This ^ is price gouging. This ^ is scalping. This ^ is obnoxious.

Inflation is when the price of items go up to match the amount of wealth gained by an economy per time unit.

The amount of gold from farming up mobs and junking items has not gone up, so this part does not affect inflation.
The amount of players farming gold in this base way HAS gone up. and this DOES affect inflation.

The amount of price gouging does NOT reflect a healthy mount of inflation due to the presents of new players.

The price gouging reflects the denial of resources from the public by those with the money to do so, with is more a reflection of economic sanction, than inflation...


Look im not saying some things shouldnt be rare and valuable and cost to much.... ofcourse they should..

But when theres enough gold in the game to exploit that cost to the extent that it currently is, then it is a broken system that
is only fun for the people that are completely invested in exploiting it...

Trade guilds are a full blown business, with fund raising and dues and losing their trade spot because they arent doing it hard enough... This is... a video game... and its supposed to be fun... not just for those people that can sit in front of TTC 24/7



^ this post should be quoting like 10 other comments. im just gunna let that part go *shrug* Just really can we figure out how to make this whole thing less ugly?

Pls disregard above. Tablets and forums don't mix-- especially this one.

400k+ available a month, per character, from just thieving/laundering at the worst absolute drops.

With 16 characters, that means have available 6.4m per month.

That is without doing writs, without selling world drops, without even touching the trade system---6.4m

If you want to have millions, you can very easily, for a minimal time investment.

Check the math if you want, max fence/launders, all white items (40g) x 28 days.

Overland drops can net you 10-20k just via vendoring trash in about 90 minutes.

Again, without touching the trade system.

That means if a guild really was interested, WITHOUT TOUCHING THE TRADE SYSTEM, they can bring 3T gold to bear and choose to absolutely corner the market on an item.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Alchemy mats are end game mats. there are NO tier 1 alchemy mats,

Yes there are.

Any Reagent that can be coupled with a Tier 1 Water / Oil to make a viable Tier 1 Potion is by definition a Tier 1 Mat.

That it can also be used at higher Tiers doesn't negate that.


All The Best

nope. as long as they are used in END GAME POTIONS? they are NOT tier 1 material. they are end game material that is available for low level characters to farm and sell.

So what ingredients are used to make Tier 1 Potions and Poisons then?


All The Best

waters. solvents. https://us.tamrieltradecentre.com/pc/Trade/SearchResult?ItemID=&SearchType=Sell&ItemNamePattern=&ItemCategory1ID=3&ItemCategory2ID=11&ItemCategory3ID=36&ItemTraitID=&ItemQualityID=&IsChampionPoint=false&LevelMin=1&LevelMax=&MasterWritVoucherMin=&MasterWritVoucherMax=&AmountMin=&AmountMax=&PriceMin=&PriceMax=

as i play primarily on PC NA, this is what I can vouch for the most. did a search. natural and clear water are used for tier one potions. natural water specifically is used for rank 1 writs and you get more water back in a material bag you get from a quest reward than what you have used to craft a potion for that quest.