Twilight Matriarch balanced in a vacuum, now weaker than Summon Shade (PvE)

Arciris · July 2019

I see a lot of misconceptions here.

1 -The Twilight (either versions) is NOT free damage. - at least in any other situation than trials/dungeons, where their recent untargetable nature (a lazy fix to summons triggering Trial mechanics, if you ask me) turned them in a more "fire and forget" thing (but you still need to use Daedric Prey, see bellow)

In PvP, especially in Cyrodiil, and in other PvE content - like Maelstrom Arena - if you do not pay attention to them, they will die all the time. The cost of (re)casting them is really high and comes with an interruptable cast time and a huge self snare.

To keep them alive, you need to cast a class skill, at the minimum every 6 seconds (can be even less if the shields expire before, which happens a lot). Not only that class shield is not cheap, it limits you into that one shield, instead of a better one like Harness and further limits your slots.

To make the DoT close to other Dots in terms of damage, you need to use another skill, Daedric Prey, again, every 6 seconds. Which also further limits your slots

So let's recap: 2 slots for the Pet, 1 slot to keep it alive, at almost 4k magika cost every 6 seconds + 1 slot to increase the DoT value to similar levels of other DoTs at almost 3k every 6 seconds.

So, except for trials/dungeons, 1 summon costs 4 slot and about 7k magika per 6 seconds, which equates to about 1.16k magika drain every second. And people call it free? LOL

2 - Summons are skill-less.
I would say a very good Summoner requires a very different skill set than the button mashing skill set that people in this forum has come to view as the only measure for skillfull play. But just because it's different, it doesn't mean it's worth less.

Again, all the things that allowed to separate a bad summoner from a good one became obsolete when they turned Summons untargettable in some content. But in other content, this is still the case.

I agree with OP, the skill was "balanced" in a total vacuum, without any regard to it's practical applications and implications.
It looks to me that it was balanced as a 1 skill/1 slot ability, it's the only way this "balancing" can make any sense. And of course, not only that approach is wrong, it also goes against their goal of "avoiding having useless skills". Because if it stays that way, the Matriarch becomes a Dead skill, while the Tormentor remains a Dead skill
edit and Daedrc Prey becomes a useless morph too, so 3 Dead skills. Since Clanfear suffers from the same problem (not worh the 2 slots) and even the monkey is not really worth 2 lots... it's 80% of a Class skill line that is rendered useless. I've never seen this in the 5 years and 9 months that I have been playing this game.

Kingslayer513 · July 2019

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros
Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds

Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons
Kill-able

CC-able

Has to be slotted on front and backbar

Line of Sight-able (PvP)

Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros
Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds

Applies Minor Maim on hit

CC Immune

Unkillable

Only takes up one skill slot

Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)

AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons
2/3 of the options are melee summons

Ranged morph buggy (PvP)

Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.

I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

WHOOOOSH

universal_wrath · July 2019

For people who complain about tiwlight being overloaded or op, please consider the following:
1- cloak is cheap, negate any single target dmg, gives 100% crit chance to next attack, allows healing while in claok, ulti gen, 1 slot.
2-ritual is graund aoe healing, minor mending, cleanse ally, snare, and can do dmg, remove negative affect from caster, 1 slot.
3- fussilize cheap, snare, immoblization, stun, heal absorbtion, cannot be block or dodge rolled, returns stamina, ulti reg, 1 slot.
4- warden vines major mending when under 40% burst heal, cheap, ulti reg, resource return,minor toughness, increase healing done, 1 slot.
5-spirit guardian is HOT, dmg migition, increase healing done by 8%, ulti gen, resource managment, 1 slot.

Now tiwlight ca either provide pure dmg or busrt healing /dmg, increase recovery, hp, LoS, 2 slots.
Unstable fimiliar, eith pure dmg/stun or dmg/healing, incraes recovery, hp, los, 2 slot.

Is you can see, for the amount of things that pets give is similar to other skills that other classes have. Even these skills are 1 slot skills and offer so much in return, while sorc pets take 2 slot and not worth it at that matter much. Nobody has called for nerfs to most of the skills I mentioned even though they are overloaded/over powered as well as only 1 slot.

Saril_Durzam · July 2019

I can understand both versions: the people saying Matriarch is OP and the ones defending it. Even many people who wanted the Matriarch nerf agrees that Sorc changes let the class very hurted.

Some people think it´s unfair to have a "fire and forget" skill. That Matriarch shouldn´t do damage and heal at the time, despite costing two skill slots.

But few people has given options. just "f*** yourselves Sorcs, you deserve them" , "Sorcs will be OP even with changes" "i will quit because the class i like will be destroyed", etc...

Ok, i proposed some ideas (auto unsummon in cities and Pvp areas among others). Now i got an idea.

Matriach base damage: as in PST, pitiful. Around 2k dmg each 2,5 seconds. Change to Draedric prey: instead of 40% more dmg, now does 350% more dmg (Daedric curse stays 40% dmg on volatile and ultimate)

Before: 5k dmg. 7k dmg with Daedric curse.
After: 2k dmg, 7k dmg with Daedric curse.

Same damage BUT now most of the damage comes with the activated debuff, meaning that you have to "pay" in form of skill slot and daedric curse activation, for the Matriarch do some damage.

This would satisfied people saying Matriarch is free damage for once, while keeping the DPS on the Sorc, WHO NEEDS IT. Not anymore the Matriarch will do free damage; even more, for her to do damage, you need to slot THREE skills. Considering pet sorcs already did that, i feel they won´t feel cheated.

What do you feel about this compromise?

Derra · July 2019

Aedaryl wrote: »

Matriach cost 2 slots and does 2 things :

Healing and damage.

The damage dots newly standards have several secondary effect (major sorcery, regen or heal, Aoe or ressource back)

The damage of healing matriarch should be the same as other standards, aka entropy damage, the matriarch secondary effects is that it's free cost for the damage.

The tormentor also costing 2 slots but only dealing damage should do more damage than 2 entropy, more damage because it have no secondary effect and because you need to activate the skill (have a cost)

Tbh. I´d make pets unattackable to avoid los issues and give them a permanent magica drain while they´re summoned to avoid the no cost issue.

At that point zos could start actually balancing them because they´d no longer fall under a entirely different ruleset than other abilities.

Arciris · July 2019

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

I can understand both versions: the people saying Matriarch is OP and the ones defending it. Even many people who wanted the Matriarch nerf agrees that Sorc changes let the class very hurted.

Some people think it´s unfair to have a "fire and forget" skill. That Matriarch shouldn´t do damage and heal at the time, despite costing two skill slots.

But few people has given options. just "f*** yourselves Sorcs, you deserve them" , "Sorcs will be OP even with changes" "i will quit because the class i like will be destroyed", etc...

Ok, i proposed some ideas (auto unsummon in cities and Pvp areas among others). Now i got an idea.

Matriach base damage: as in PST, pitiful. Around 2k dmg each 2,5 seconds. Change to Draedric prey: instead of 40% more dmg, now does 350% more dmg (Daedric curse stays 40% dmg on volatile and ultimate)

Before: 5k dmg. 7k dmg with Daedric curse.
After: 2k dmg, 7k dmg with Daedric curse.

Same damage BUT now most of the damage comes with the activated debuff, meaning that you have to "pay" in form of skill slot and daedric curse activation, for the Matriarch do some damage.

This would satisfied people saying Matriarch is free damage for once, while keeping the DPS on the Sorc, WHO NEEDS IT. Not anymore the Matriarch will do free damage; even more, for her to do damage, you need to slot THREE skills. Considering pet sorcs already did that, i feel they won´t feel cheated.

What do you feel about this compromise?

This actually sounds like a good compromise.
Too bad it won't be even considered by the powers above.

But you got an insightful for your effort.

Kingslayer513 · July 2019

Aznarb wrote: »

drummindrummer wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros
Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds

Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons
Kill-able

CC-able

Has to be slotted on front and backbar

Line of Sight-able (PvP)

Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros
Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds

Applies Minor Maim on hit

CC Immune

Unkillable

Only takes up one skill slot

Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)

AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons
2/3 of the options are melee summons

Ranged morph buggy (PvP)

Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.

I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Tormentor got nerfed too, that's what erks me since it was a lously morph to begin with. Not including the tormentor is a fault I put in the OP as it serves the DD role.

Breath of life could be compared to Matriarch's heal, unfortunately the OP was comparing two pets, not two heals, unless I've missed something.

Even if you compare two heals, breath of life is still far superior to matriach. First, it only takes 1 bar and that is a big thing. Second, it's not a summon so it does not die. Third, if I'm not mistaken it scales on both max magicka and spell dmg, were as matraich heal only buffed by max magicka. Forth, breath of life heal increased as health decrease due to templar passives, matriach heal is not supported by any passives of sorcs. Last thing, Breath of life/ honor of the dead give you 2 different play style, first teamplay and other selfish and sustain suppoerted, while matriach is only teamplay even though most sorcs are solo.

Note: now matraich dmg has decreased significanly, there is no reason for the skills to stay as dauble bars skill and should be as such treated as 1 bad.

Hum, no.
That only for pvp, and even in pvp all is not like you said.

Maybe you've to use 2 slot for matriarch, and ?
Huge amount of free damage + burst heal : already worth 2 slot, but let continue :
It CAN'T die in pve DG/Trial, so no problem here.
Matriarch cost 2 time less mana than BoL, Heal for more (yeah, she heal 2 person for 2 time less than BoL)
No LoS required.

In which universe this skill is weaker than BoL ?
It's far superior to BoL, doesn't matter the morph, BoL is not selfish, it heal lower allies around not just you.
Even after the nerf it still far superior to BoL as an emergency heal.

My Sorc heal is my go-to for any 4 man content cuz it's so easy to build for heal + 25k dmg+
Sorc is gonna be weaker for heal cuz of the grand healing change, not cuz of the damage nerf..
Sorc was lacking utility as trial healer, not power-heal or damage.

Tourmentor is what you LF if you want to compare to Shade, not Twilight..
Ofc Twilight was deserved a nerf and pet sorc in general due to how stupidly easy and effective they're.
Some people already tryed PTS change and it's nothing more than a general buff to magika DPS despite what ppl say here.
Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

As a healer I'll get hit way more than any DPS drama-queen here, and I don't complain, I'm already theory-crafting and farming to keep all class healer useful even if not easy ; do the same, most people here despite their whining know ZoS will not come back.

I think you are forgetting one big point. It takes TWO slots so it should have at least close to TWO functions. I'm not necessarily whining lol. Just stating facts.

I am actually one of those people that have been testing on PTS and was still able to get 90k with pet sorc on the trial dummy. But guess what, I had to drop the bird. Both morphs are a dps loss compared to other skills. Which means as a dps we lose our emergency heal.

Quoting myself :

Aznarb wrote:

Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

Healing matri still good for healer.
You still have surge and shield, that already more than most, if not all other magika DPS.
You wanna be lazy and use pet for dmg and heal ? You'll lose dmg.
You wanna improve and do damage ? Take the new option.

What world do you live in? You smoking something? All other magicka classes have good self heals while still dealing damage.

Magblades heal from doing damage and have more heals in their class toolkit if needed. Wardens have TONS of healing in their class toolkit through which they can still deal normal dmg while healing. MagDKs heal through doing damage and have access to more healing in their class toolkit as needed. Magplars have burst heal and hots in their class toolkit as needed.

Sorcs are just left with surge in their class toolkit now that Matriarch is worthless for dps. Apparently that's more than all the other classes. Where's the on-demand heal that other classes can slot when they need to?

Royalthought · July 2019

slofwnd wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

2. Nightblades utilities got nerfed too. Go look at refeshing path. Does path do more damage than matriarch?

What? Refreshing path is a strongest AOE HOT for magicka builds in 5.1.1 and it gives you speed buff. It only takes 1 slot unlike the flappy bird.
Definitely not the skill to complain about.

That point. That head. Completely over.

What was the complaint you're referring to?

I'll wait.

drummindrummer · July 2019

Again, primarily PVP responses on a PVE thread LOL.

Biggest problem of ESO like I said.

If ZOS would just separate the two, PVP people wouldnt feel the need to comment on a PVE related thread, and vise versa.

Until that is changed (if ever), the most vocal on these forums (PVP) will continue to screw over PVE player. the twilight change is a perfect example to that.

Are PVP people meaning to screw over PVE player? no, i doubt it. they probably only care about what happens to them in PVP. and i get that. and i sympathize, truly. its a bad world for both PVE and PVP players because ZOS cant separate them

Its sad

drummindrummer · July 2019

and for people saying "oh its too much work"

do you realize how many times they have rebalanced things over the years? always going back and forth with each patch.

yes, adjusting everything in the game would take a huge amount of time. but it only has to be done ONCE, then tweaked from there until a balance is found.

the amount of time they have spent "balancing" the two together over the years, they could have already separated the two, ten times over

Aznarb · July 2019

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

drummindrummer wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros
Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds

Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons
Kill-able

CC-able

Has to be slotted on front and backbar

Line of Sight-able (PvP)

Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros
Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds

Applies Minor Maim on hit

CC Immune

Unkillable

Only takes up one skill slot

Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)

AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons
2/3 of the options are melee summons

Ranged morph buggy (PvP)

Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.

I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Tormentor got nerfed too, that's what erks me since it was a lously morph to begin with. Not including the tormentor is a fault I put in the OP as it serves the DD role.

Breath of life could be compared to Matriarch's heal, unfortunately the OP was comparing two pets, not two heals, unless I've missed something.

Even if you compare two heals, breath of life is still far superior to matriach. First, it only takes 1 bar and that is a big thing. Second, it's not a summon so it does not die. Third, if I'm not mistaken it scales on both max magicka and spell dmg, were as matraich heal only buffed by max magicka. Forth, breath of life heal increased as health decrease due to templar passives, matriach heal is not supported by any passives of sorcs. Last thing, Breath of life/ honor of the dead give you 2 different play style, first teamplay and other selfish and sustain suppoerted, while matriach is only teamplay even though most sorcs are solo.

Note: now matraich dmg has decreased significanly, there is no reason for the skills to stay as dauble bars skill and should be as such treated as 1 bad.

Hum, no.
That only for pvp, and even in pvp all is not like you said.

Maybe you've to use 2 slot for matriarch, and ?
Huge amount of free damage + burst heal : already worth 2 slot, but let continue :
It CAN'T die in pve DG/Trial, so no problem here.
Matriarch cost 2 time less mana than BoL, Heal for more (yeah, she heal 2 person for 2 time less than BoL)
No LoS required.

In which universe this skill is weaker than BoL ?
It's far superior to BoL, doesn't matter the morph, BoL is not selfish, it heal lower allies around not just you.
Even after the nerf it still far superior to BoL as an emergency heal.

My Sorc heal is my go-to for any 4 man content cuz it's so easy to build for heal + 25k dmg+
Sorc is gonna be weaker for heal cuz of the grand healing change, not cuz of the damage nerf..
Sorc was lacking utility as trial healer, not power-heal or damage.

Tourmentor is what you LF if you want to compare to Shade, not Twilight..
Ofc Twilight was deserved a nerf and pet sorc in general due to how stupidly easy and effective they're.
Some people already tryed PTS change and it's nothing more than a general buff to magika DPS despite what ppl say here.
Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

As a healer I'll get hit way more than any DPS drama-queen here, and I don't complain, I'm already theory-crafting and farming to keep all class healer useful even if not easy ; do the same, most people here despite their whining know ZoS will not come back.

I think you are forgetting one big point. It takes TWO slots so it should have at least close to TWO functions. I'm not necessarily whining lol. Just stating facts.

I am actually one of those people that have been testing on PTS and was still able to get 90k with pet sorc on the trial dummy. But guess what, I had to drop the bird. Both morphs are a dps loss compared to other skills. Which means as a dps we lose our emergency heal.

Quoting myself :

Aznarb wrote:

Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

Healing matri still good for healer.
You still have surge and shield, that already more than most, if not all other magika DPS.
You wanna be lazy and use pet for dmg and heal ? You'll lose dmg.
You wanna improve and do damage ? Take the new option.

What world do you live in? You smoking something? All other magicka classes have good self heals while still dealing damage.

Magblades heal from doing damage and have more heals in their class toolkit if needed. Wardens have TONS of healing in their class toolkit through which they can still deal normal dmg while healing. MagDKs heal through doing damage and have access to more healing in their class toolkit as needed. Magplars have burst heal and hots in their class toolkit as needed.

Sorcs are just left with surge in their class toolkit now that Matriarch is worthless for dps. Apparently that's more than all the other classes. Where's the on-demand heal that other classes can slot when they need to?

Your on post is full of hypocrisis and contradiction, that a beauty +take this "awesome".

So, you're saying most mag class heal through dmg, y, you've surge, where is the problem ?
Then you contradict yourself with "we don't have our heal on demand anymore", no other mag dps class have heal on demand who deal high constant dmg for free and w/o targeting + heal 2 ppl, heal w/o targeting and (for pvp) can block dmg by blocking los from other player.
Much hypocrisies ?

NB burst-heal ? Oh can't heal himself with it.
Templar burst ? Heal the lowest around, cost 2time more, deal no dmg
DK burst-heal ? Need a target, still heal the lowest, can stun, ridiculous dmg cost 2 time more than twilight and the heal is slow to come.
Warden burst-heal ? Aoe burst, the more costlty of all burst, the lower burst amount + little regen buff (probably the most reliable since it will always heal you)
Necro ? Still don't have test class, can't say anything
And then :
Sorc : Twilight matri : Free constant high dmg for free + Heal 2 ppl + no target required + Can block skill with body in pvp, can't die in pve, cost 2 time less than any other burst.

Humm, yeah, definitely a weak burst who don't need a nerf right ?

I play all the class as healer, so, sorry for you, but I know every toolkit for that.
Sorc is atm the easiest healer to play by far due to matri cheapness.

Why you don't play other class pvp or pve doesn't matter to see how their "heal on demand" are so great ?
So great thant no one slot them.
Sorc got heal through dmg like everyone with Surge and still have shield who despite nerf is still stronger than the other mag class can use and you still got matri even if she do less dmg it continue to do some.

I agree they shouldn't have nerf the other DPS morph, but matri is a healer skill not a DPS one. You want it ? You sacrifice some DPS like other class is they slot their burst, logic.

All I see in your comment is "they remove my easy-win/stay alive button now i'll have to learn how to play *cry*"
Sorc and NB are really the 2 class player I see flood the forum for nothing every single time, geez..

Sorc is fine, all he need now is some skill to match a healer play-style cuz he got no one outside of matri.

Edit :
Also since now it's gonna be nerf and be balanced, they should remove the double-bar slot for pet (except ultimate bear)
Imho double slot for 1 skill is a bad design.

FrancisCrawford · July 2019

I don't think this is a time to analyze pet sorcerer builds. The most casual of content aside, just play something else for a while, in ESO or another game as you see fit.

It IS conceivable that the class comes back at some point. Indeed, pet sorcerers became good only after non-pet sorcerers were destroyed. Magplars also rebounded after @Joy_Division's famous and accurate condemnation; they're both reasonably strong and rather fun.

But for now, forgeddaboutit.

Donnasnowheart_ESO · July 2019

Like someone else already said totally fine with Matriarch having lower damage. The tormentor on the other hand is pretty much the common example every class feels when zos overkills something. It is sad and wrong but the cycle continues would be really nice if they added the developer note for the pet portion so we the players could at least get some insight behind the tormentor nerf.

luen79rwb17_ESO · July 2019

Sorc is a total mess of a class.

Why give class skill lines when all I have to do is fill my bars with generic dots

Hotdog_23 · July 2019

universal_wrath wrote: »

For people who complain about tiwlight being overloaded or op, please consider the following:
1- cloak is cheap, negate any single target dmg, gives 100% crit chance to next attack, allows healing while in claok, ulti gen, 1 slot.
2-ritual is graund aoe healing, minor mending, cleanse ally, snare, and can do dmg, remove negative affect from caster, 1 slot.
3- fussilize cheap, snare, immoblization, stun, heal absorbtion, cannot be block or dodge rolled, returns stamina, ulti reg, 1 slot.
4- warden vines major mending when under 40% burst heal, cheap, ulti reg, resource return,minor toughness, increase healing done, 1 slot.
5-spirit guardian is HOT, dmg migition, increase healing done by 8%, ulti gen, resource managment, 1 slot.

Now tiwlight ca either provide pure dmg or busrt healing /dmg, increase recovery, hp, LoS, 2 slots.
Unstable fimiliar, eith pure dmg/stun or dmg/healing, incraes recovery, hp, los, 2 slot.

Is you can see, for the amount of things that pets give is similar to other skills that other classes have. Even these skills are 1 slot skills and offer so much in return, while sorc pets take 2 slot and not worth it at that matter much. Nobody has called for nerfs to most of the skills I mentioned even though they are overloaded/over powered as well as only 1 slot.

Which bring me back to my suggestion of making socr pets do the same as all other pets and only last 8/16 seconds. Do the same for wardens bear. That way they only have to be run on a single bar. Standardized all pets timers to make balancing easier and easier for players who do play all classes and not just 1 or 2.

Lord_Eomer · July 2019

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros
Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds

Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons
Kill-able

CC-able

Has to be slotted on front and backbar

Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros
Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds

Applies Minor Maim on hit

CC Immune

Unkillable

Only takes up one skill slot

Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)

AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons
2/3 of the options are melee summons

Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.

I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

Edit: Removed PvP-related pros and cons

While I understand people hated "portable cover", as a Pet User in PvP I never danced around in my pets to try and avoid single-target skills from other players. I'm sure people did do it because abuse what you can, but given the pets are killable I don't see how it's any more abusing than the people diving around rocks and trees training 12 players behind them.

Also keep in mind a PvP PetSorc with Familiar, Prey, Matriarch and likely Hardened Ward is 6/10 skills in the hole to achieve that and play a war of attrition to kill anyone

Its better to slot now Clanfear for Healing,

Some Salty players across forum alway argue do not let others push you back. Twilight is no doubt joined list of Crap skills.

Most of experienced ESO population now plays Stamina and will always defend Stam and support Magicka nerfs@

Aedaryl · July 2019

Aznarb wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

drummindrummer wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros
Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds

Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons
Kill-able

CC-able

Has to be slotted on front and backbar

Line of Sight-able (PvP)

Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros
Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds

Applies Minor Maim on hit

CC Immune

Unkillable

Only takes up one skill slot

Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)

AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons
2/3 of the options are melee summons

Ranged morph buggy (PvP)

Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.

I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Tormentor got nerfed too, that's what erks me since it was a lously morph to begin with. Not including the tormentor is a fault I put in the OP as it serves the DD role.

Breath of life could be compared to Matriarch's heal, unfortunately the OP was comparing two pets, not two heals, unless I've missed something.

Even if you compare two heals, breath of life is still far superior to matriach. First, it only takes 1 bar and that is a big thing. Second, it's not a summon so it does not die. Third, if I'm not mistaken it scales on both max magicka and spell dmg, were as matraich heal only buffed by max magicka. Forth, breath of life heal increased as health decrease due to templar passives, matriach heal is not supported by any passives of sorcs. Last thing, Breath of life/ honor of the dead give you 2 different play style, first teamplay and other selfish and sustain suppoerted, while matriach is only teamplay even though most sorcs are solo.

Note: now matraich dmg has decreased significanly, there is no reason for the skills to stay as dauble bars skill and should be as such treated as 1 bad.

Hum, no.
That only for pvp, and even in pvp all is not like you said.

Maybe you've to use 2 slot for matriarch, and ?
Huge amount of free damage + burst heal : already worth 2 slot, but let continue :
It CAN'T die in pve DG/Trial, so no problem here.
Matriarch cost 2 time less mana than BoL, Heal for more (yeah, she heal 2 person for 2 time less than BoL)
No LoS required.

In which universe this skill is weaker than BoL ?
It's far superior to BoL, doesn't matter the morph, BoL is not selfish, it heal lower allies around not just you.
Even after the nerf it still far superior to BoL as an emergency heal.

My Sorc heal is my go-to for any 4 man content cuz it's so easy to build for heal + 25k dmg+
Sorc is gonna be weaker for heal cuz of the grand healing change, not cuz of the damage nerf..
Sorc was lacking utility as trial healer, not power-heal or damage.

Tourmentor is what you LF if you want to compare to Shade, not Twilight..
Ofc Twilight was deserved a nerf and pet sorc in general due to how stupidly easy and effective they're.
Some people already tryed PTS change and it's nothing more than a general buff to magika DPS despite what ppl say here.
Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

As a healer I'll get hit way more than any DPS drama-queen here, and I don't complain, I'm already theory-crafting and farming to keep all class healer useful even if not easy ; do the same, most people here despite their whining know ZoS will not come back.

I think you are forgetting one big point. It takes TWO slots so it should have at least close to TWO functions. I'm not necessarily whining lol. Just stating facts.

I am actually one of those people that have been testing on PTS and was still able to get 90k with pet sorc on the trial dummy. But guess what, I had to drop the bird. Both morphs are a dps loss compared to other skills. Which means as a dps we lose our emergency heal.

Quoting myself :

Aznarb wrote:

Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

Healing matri still good for healer.
You still have surge and shield, that already more than most, if not all other magika DPS.
You wanna be lazy and use pet for dmg and heal ? You'll lose dmg.
You wanna improve and do damage ? Take the new option.

What world do you live in? You smoking something? All other magicka classes have good self heals while still dealing damage.

Magblades heal from doing damage and have more heals in their class toolkit if needed. Wardens have TONS of healing in their class toolkit through which they can still deal normal dmg while healing. MagDKs heal through doing damage and have access to more healing in their class toolkit as needed. Magplars have burst heal and hots in their class toolkit as needed.

Sorcs are just left with surge in their class toolkit now that Matriarch is worthless for dps. Apparently that's more than all the other classes. Where's the on-demand heal that other classes can slot when they need to?

Your on post is full of hypocrisis and contradiction, that a beauty +take this "awesome".

So, you're saying most mag class heal through dmg, y, you've surge, where is the problem ?
Then you contradict yourself with "we don't have our heal on demand anymore", no other mag dps class have heal on demand who deal high constant dmg for free and w/o targeting + heal 2 ppl, heal w/o targeting and (for pvp) can block dmg by blocking los from other player.
Much hypocrisies ?

NB burst-heal ? Oh can't heal himself with it.
Templar burst ? Heal the lowest around, cost 2time more, deal no dmg
DK burst-heal ? Need a target, still heal the lowest, can stun, ridiculous dmg cost 2 time more than twilight and the heal is slow to come.
Warden burst-heal ? Aoe burst, the more costlty of all burst, the lower burst amount + little regen buff (probably the most reliable since it will always heal you)
Necro ? Still don't have test class, can't say anything
And then :
Sorc : Twilight matri : Free constant high dmg for free + Heal 2 ppl + no target required + Can block skill with body in pvp, can't die in pve, cost 2 time less than any other burst.

Humm, yeah, definitely a weak burst who don't need a nerf right ?

I play all the class as healer, so, sorry for you, but I know every toolkit for that.
Sorc is atm the easiest healer to play by far due to matri cheapness.

Why you don't play other class pvp or pve doesn't matter to see how their "heal on demand" are so great ?
So great thant no one slot them.
Sorc got heal through dmg like everyone with Surge and still have shield who despite nerf is still stronger than the other mag class can use and you still got matri even if she do less dmg it continue to do some.

I agree they shouldn't have nerf the other DPS morph, but matri is a healer skill not a DPS one. You want it ? You sacrifice some DPS like other class is they slot their burst, logic.

All I see in your comment is "they remove my easy-win/stay alive button now i'll have to learn how to play *cry*"
Sorc and NB are really the 2 class player I see flood the forum for nothing every single time, geez..

Sorc is fine, all he need now is some skill to match a healer play-style cuz he got no one outside of matri.

Edit :
Also since now it's gonna be nerf and be balanced, they should remove the double-bar slot for pet (except ultimate bear)
Imho double slot for 1 skill is a bad design.

So much disinformation here.

I don't even know where to start...

MartiniDaniels · July 2019

BalticBlues wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Magsorc is hands off best PVP class in the game for majority of patches in recent years, what are you talking about.

This confirms that you never played a PetSorc in PvP.

PetSorcs were trash in PvP for years.
ZOS managed to make them feasible not long ago.
But now with the Overload bar gone and still 4 slots for pets,
now with shields crippled and finally with pets butchered this patch,
With this PTS, PetSorcs are even worse than at release...

ZOS FINALLY MANAGED TO KILL PETSOCRS ENTIRELY FOR PVP. GREAT JOB. NOT.

katorga wrote: »

How many patches did ZOS buff pets trying desperately to get people to use them? It was like two years worth of patches buffing them. Way back when no one in their right mind used pets.

And ZOS now makes sure nobody ever will again...

I specially pointed that I didn't separate magsorcs and petsorcs. This is same damn class, which rocks in PVP for majority of patches. Like it was said multiple times when DKs and NBs were nerfed in Elsweyr patch - adapt -> change your build, change your bars, history shows this is easily doable, especially when you have BEST passives in the game, which apply nicely not only to class skills, bit to everything. Btw, both DKs and NBs are nerfed again in this patch, so you are not alone, all classes are nerfed.

P.S. I'm absolutely confident that new dot-sorc will emerge in couple of months and will be rocking again.

Saril_Durzam · July 2019

Dot-sorc in Pvp? Humm... Not sure, Pvp is more about burst. Few dot builds work in pvp.

drummindrummer · July 2019

I'm just appalled that everyone keep commenting and justifying this. You people don't really have a clue.

This will be my last post here because I no longer want to be associated with this cesspool.

This is a PVE thread and a PVE response.

Some people DO NOT CARE about PVP, get over it.

I will compare 6mil numbers because I can only compare to that from before the trial dummy was a thing.

For years, the twilight did 2.5k dps on my parses, and also has a heal. This was fine, and fair, considering again it takes TWO skill slots. The tormentor would do a little more dps and had to be casted for that damage, and still takes TWO slots.

Yes, recently it was buffed a little too much and the twilight (healing non activation morph) was doing 6-7k dps. Yeah that's a bit too much passive damage (while still costing two of your skill slots mind you)

But now...its doing 1.2k dps. That is way overnerfed because of outcries in PVP. And you make fun of us for cyring on these type of PVE nerf threads. I find that pretty funny actually. (double standards much?)

No, I'm not crying. I'm providing facts. I will adapt, and pretty much already have (see my parse I posted)
But I still do not agree with the nerf that has taken place. Classes are getting stripped of their identity and it is not good for the game

Anyways that's it for me, PEACE

Edit: I totally forgot to add that if you die, you have to ressumon the pet after being ressed before getting the heal you need and so called "free" dps. Which sometimes has immediately got me killed again due to the snare. So sometimes it comes at great cost to have "free" dps. There are also still some encounter that despawn pet mid fight where you'll have to summon them again and be snared and unable to cast anything else

pattyLtd · July 2019

Maybe they are slightly overpowered now in pvp, i have no clue i abandoned pvp long time ago for the performance issues.

But the real problem with zos is how they “balance”, nerfing somethign by 69% is such an outrageous number that it can never be balancing anything. It’s utterly destroying it.

MartiniDaniels · July 2019

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Dot-sorc in Pvp? Humm... Not sure, Pvp is more about burst. Few dot builds work in pvp.

Of course only few of them work now, because dots are relatively weak on live if this is not DK in deadly with bleeds or similar. But dots are buffed across the board, there are new viable dots and there is onslaught which removes all protection so pre-applied dots can tick in full power. It may seem absurd to use 2H on magsorc, but given that master inferno won't be so good and you don't need force pulse to fight with DKs anymore.. why not? you may even use Zaan.. 3 pre-applied dots+fury->onslaught+zaan+frags.... damage will be insane.

drummindrummer wrote: »

I'm just appalled that everyone keep commenting and justifying this. You people don't really have a clue.

This will be my last post here because I no longer want to be associated with this cesspool.

This is a PVE thread and a PVE response.

You have enthopy, new destro dot and soul trap. Also improved beast trap instead of channeled acceleration for minor force, when fight allows to be in melee. Yes, you will be still doing 10% less dps then stamsorc but this is resource-wide problem, not only petsorc's. Magicka needs either new powerful set or some serious buff on global level (in PVE). This has nothing to do with matriach, a lot of other class abilities were nerfed too and even more funny to compare matriarch to dark shade, shade is absolute trash on PTS (if this is PVE thread, we are talking about that morph)

Vahrokh · July 2019

drummindrummer wrote: »

Both twilight morphs are dead on pts. How can people enjoy abilities being entirely useless for the class they alledgedly main?

It's years that (mostly) NB mains fake having a sorc main, to say: "yeah it's about time we get nerfed, we were oh-so-op".

Vahrokh · July 2019

Aznarb wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

drummindrummer wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros
Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds

Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons
Kill-able

CC-able

Has to be slotted on front and backbar

Line of Sight-able (PvP)

Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros
Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds

Applies Minor Maim on hit

CC Immune

Unkillable

Only takes up one skill slot

Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)

AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons
2/3 of the options are melee summons

Ranged morph buggy (PvP)

Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.

I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Tormentor got nerfed too, that's what erks me since it was a lously morph to begin with. Not including the tormentor is a fault I put in the OP as it serves the DD role.

Breath of life could be compared to Matriarch's heal, unfortunately the OP was comparing two pets, not two heals, unless I've missed something.

Even if you compare two heals, breath of life is still far superior to matriach. First, it only takes 1 bar and that is a big thing. Second, it's not a summon so it does not die. Third, if I'm not mistaken it scales on both max magicka and spell dmg, were as matraich heal only buffed by max magicka. Forth, breath of life heal increased as health decrease due to templar passives, matriach heal is not supported by any passives of sorcs. Last thing, Breath of life/ honor of the dead give you 2 different play style, first teamplay and other selfish and sustain suppoerted, while matriach is only teamplay even though most sorcs are solo.

Note: now matraich dmg has decreased significanly, there is no reason for the skills to stay as dauble bars skill and should be as such treated as 1 bad.

Hum, no.
That only for pvp, and even in pvp all is not like you said.

Maybe you've to use 2 slot for matriarch, and ?
Huge amount of free damage + burst heal : already worth 2 slot, but let continue :
It CAN'T die in pve DG/Trial, so no problem here.
Matriarch cost 2 time less mana than BoL, Heal for more (yeah, she heal 2 person for 2 time less than BoL)
No LoS required.

In which universe this skill is weaker than BoL ?
It's far superior to BoL, doesn't matter the morph, BoL is not selfish, it heal lower allies around not just you.
Even after the nerf it still far superior to BoL as an emergency heal.

My Sorc heal is my go-to for any 4 man content cuz it's so easy to build for heal + 25k dmg+
Sorc is gonna be weaker for heal cuz of the grand healing change, not cuz of the damage nerf..
Sorc was lacking utility as trial healer, not power-heal or damage.

Tourmentor is what you LF if you want to compare to Shade, not Twilight..
Ofc Twilight was deserved a nerf and pet sorc in general due to how stupidly easy and effective they're.
Some people already tryed PTS change and it's nothing more than a general buff to magika DPS despite what ppl say here.
Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

As a healer I'll get hit way more than any DPS drama-queen here, and I don't complain, I'm already theory-crafting and farming to keep all class healer useful even if not easy ; do the same, most people here despite their whining know ZoS will not come back.

I think you are forgetting one big point. It takes TWO slots so it should have at least close to TWO functions. I'm not necessarily whining lol. Just stating facts.

I am actually one of those people that have been testing on PTS and was still able to get 90k with pet sorc on the trial dummy. But guess what, I had to drop the bird. Both morphs are a dps loss compared to other skills. Which means as a dps we lose our emergency heal.

Quoting myself :

Aznarb wrote:

Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

Healing matri still good for healer.
You still have surge and shield, that already more than most, if not all other magika DPS.
You wanna be lazy and use pet for dmg and heal ? You'll lose dmg.
You wanna improve and do damage ? Take the new option.

What world do you live in? You smoking something? All other magicka classes have good self heals while still dealing damage.

Magblades heal from doing damage and have more heals in their class toolkit if needed. Wardens have TONS of healing in their class toolkit through which they can still deal normal dmg while healing. MagDKs heal through doing damage and have access to more healing in their class toolkit as needed. Magplars have burst heal and hots in their class toolkit as needed.

Sorcs are just left with surge in their class toolkit now that Matriarch is worthless for dps. Apparently that's more than all the other classes. Where's the on-demand heal that other classes can slot when they need to?

Your on post is full of hypocrisis and contradiction, that a beauty +take this "awesome".

So, you're saying most mag class heal through dmg, y, you've surge, where is the problem ?
Then you contradict yourself with "we don't have our heal on demand anymore", no other mag dps class have heal on demand who deal high constant dmg for free and w/o targeting + heal 2 ppl, heal w/o targeting and (for pvp) can block dmg by blocking los from other player.
Much hypocrisies ?

NB burst-heal ? Oh can't heal himself with it.
Templar burst ? Heal the lowest around, cost 2time more, deal no dmg
DK burst-heal ? Need a target, still heal the lowest, can stun, ridiculous dmg cost 2 time more than twilight and the heal is slow to come.
Warden burst-heal ? Aoe burst, the more costlty of all burst, the lower burst amount + little regen buff (probably the most reliable since it will always heal you)
Necro ? Still don't have test class, can't say anything
And then :
Sorc : Twilight matri : Free constant high dmg for free + Heal 2 ppl + no target required + Can block skill with body in pvp, can't die in pve, cost 2 time less than any other burst.

Humm, yeah, definitely a weak burst who don't need a nerf right ?

I play all the class as healer, so, sorry for you, but I know every toolkit for that.
Sorc is atm the easiest healer to play by far due to matri cheapness.

Why you don't play other class pvp or pve doesn't matter to see how their "heal on demand" are so great ?
So great thant no one slot them.
Sorc got heal through dmg like everyone with Surge and still have shield who despite nerf is still stronger than the other mag class can use and you still got matri even if she do less dmg it continue to do some.

I agree they shouldn't have nerf the other DPS morph, but matri is a healer skill not a DPS one. You want it ? You sacrifice some DPS like other class is they slot their burst, logic.

-69% being "some DPS".

Reminds me that girl that said "someone did something" when referring to the 9/11 terrorists attacks.

Vahrokh · July 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

You have enthopy, new destro dot and soul trap. Also improved beast trap instead of channeled acceleration for minor force, when fight allows to be in melee. Yes, you will be still doing 10% less dps then stamsorc but this is resource-wide problem, not only petsorc's. Magicka needs either new powerful set or some serious buff on global level (in PVE). This has nothing to do with matriach, a lot of other class abilities were nerfed too and even more funny to compare matriarch to dark shade, shade is absolute trash on PTS (if this is PVE thread, we are talking about that morph)

What about they stick those boring, streamlined, general skills up to their butt?

I am happy with my PvE magsorc doing 15% less than stamina TODAY and with the setup I have TODAY.

I am fed up with all this never ending cycle of nonsensical nerfs and buffs.

Ok, it's their game, free to crap all over it. But not with my money, for sure.
I have NO OBLIGATION to sponsor people actively destroying my fun and achievements.

MartiniDaniels · July 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

You have enthopy, new destro dot and soul trap. Also improved beast trap instead of channeled acceleration for minor force, when fight allows to be in melee. Yes, you will be still doing 10% less dps then stamsorc but this is resource-wide problem, not only petsorc's. Magicka needs either new powerful set or some serious buff on global level (in PVE). This has nothing to do with matriach, a lot of other class abilities were nerfed too and even more funny to compare matriarch to dark shade, shade is absolute trash on PTS (if this is PVE thread, we are talking about that morph)

What about they stick those boring, streamlined, general skills up to their butt?

I am happy with my PvE magsorc doing 15% less than stamina TODAY and with the setup I have TODAY.

I am fed up with all this never ending cycle of nonsensical nerfs and buffs.

Ok, it's their game, free to crap all over it. But not with my money, for sure.
I have NO OBLIGATION to sponsor people actively destroying my fun and achievements.

I'm sure ZOS will adjust all of it in next patches, cause new builds simply ditch spammable and go all dots with almost zero investment in master-of-arms.. lol who might have thought it will come to that..

If OP started discussion, magsorc is weak in PVE with this changes, magsorc will be forced to use generic skills... but thread is named, "matriarch is worse then shade". This is simply wrong, because I don't know what might be worse then new nerfed shade (in PVE). New shade is simply dead morph, while matriarch still can be used on healer and dpsing morph is quite viable, there was 90k parse over there with tormentor..

Vahrokh · July 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

You have enthopy, new destro dot and soul trap. Also improved beast trap instead of channeled acceleration for minor force, when fight allows to be in melee. Yes, you will be still doing 10% less dps then stamsorc but this is resource-wide problem, not only petsorc's. Magicka needs either new powerful set or some serious buff on global level (in PVE). This has nothing to do with matriach, a lot of other class abilities were nerfed too and even more funny to compare matriarch to dark shade, shade is absolute trash on PTS (if this is PVE thread, we are talking about that morph)

What about they stick those boring, streamlined, general skills up to their butt?

I am happy with my PvE magsorc doing 15% less than stamina TODAY and with the setup I have TODAY.

I am fed up with all this never ending cycle of nonsensical nerfs and buffs.

Ok, it's their game, free to crap all over it. But not with my money, for sure.
I have NO OBLIGATION to sponsor people actively destroying my fun and achievements.

I'm sure ZOS will adjust all of it in next patches, cause new builds simply ditch spammable and go all dots with almost zero investment in master-of-arms.. lol who might have thought it will come to that..

If OP started discussion, magsorc is weak in PVE with this changes, magsorc will be forced to use generic skills... but thread is named, "matriarch is worse then shade". This is simply wrong, because I don't know what might be worse then new nerfed shade (in PVE). New shade is simply dead morph, while matriarch still can be used on healer and dpsing morph is quite viable, there was 90k parse over there with tormentor..

Tormentor was, is and will be pointless.

The only single reason to take a 2nd pet (and give up two slots) was because it could off-heal. Tormentor has never been relevant because you can just drop it and add two skills and do MORE damage than by using it. Plus, the two skills don't die or bug all the time.

So, the end result is: matriarch made useless. Tormentor stays worse than using two skills in place, so it's useless.

GREAT JOB ZOS!

Cathexis · July 2019

Just wanted to pull my thoughts from another twilight related thread and drop them here.

....
I think that, having played with it for some time, summoning in general needs more practical utility, in particular as it relates to the spread of across all four morphs.

Obviously these are just my thoughts, of course it is unlikely they would implement them this way, but this is the general feel I get from what pets are lacking. I think they need to focus on bringing them modestly competitive damage combined with more practical utilities. Right now they are very heal heavy conceptually and while matri damage is doing well in the live patch, there's not much else to them.

Imo I think they should keep Twilight damage the same on both morphs
Familiar should get a modest damage buff to bring it about 50%-70% of matri (the damage is....not amazing)
Unless you are zoo sorc'ing you aren't putting 2 pets on your bar, in which case the damage distribution is still reasonable.

Both pets base ability scale on health.
One morph of each should scale on mag.

Mag morph of Matri >> Activating gives you/matri low-medium heals on hit for say 20 seconds and casts a low timer dot area heal on single cast (say like 10k or something over 3 seconds) affects matri/all surrounding targets, uses matri animation

^^ This deals with the fact that matri damage was too high while keeping its dot utility in tact by removing the 50% damage bouf on targets over 50% health.

Health morph Tormentor >> Gives an aoe minor maim and taunts on activation, but loses range attacks in general, uses tormentor animation

Mag morph Familiar >> Activating does AoE 2.5s stun on cast that is instant, no more strange countdown aoes, base attacks are low damage low radius aoes (similar to the ones in IC that spawn from portals)

Health morph Clanfear >> Heal remains the same, activating it also enrages it, causing it to increase in size by say 15% or 20% for 8 seconds and leap attacking (charge, single target taunt/maim) the next nearest enemy inside X range (appropriate, probably more small). Give it a darker model, because it looks like you are being followed around by a bright purple dinosaur.

Lastly, switch blood magic passives with power stone. (may need adjustment to say like 2% from 4%)

So to recap:
-Twilight sees a damage nerf from its active ability
-Hot remains for mag sorcs, heals become guaranteed for the sorc, and aoe as an extended utility
-All pets passive heal
-Health morphs are melee and debuff
-Health morphs taunt for pve crowd control options
-Clanfear base damage buffed enough that it does something
-Better mag familiar utility
-Clanfear no longer tailswipes

I feel like this makes them worth giving up 2 slots for and makes them more well rounded utilities, with distinct abilities that are modest and yet effective.

If there's one thing I would emphasize above anything else it's that the model size itself can be an asset in this situation, which is unique to pets. Larger monster models obstruct opponents view and pathing and that is a unique asset that they could draw on, particularly I think that works aesthetically well for the clanfear.

Saril_Durzam · July 2019

Aznarb wrote: »

Your on post is full of hypocrisis and contradiction, that a beauty +take this "awesome".

So, you're saying most mag class heal through dmg, y, you've surge, where is the problem ?
Then you contradict yourself with "we don't have our heal on demand anymore", no other mag dps class have heal on demand who deal high constant dmg for free and w/o targeting + heal 2 ppl, heal w/o targeting and (for pvp) can block dmg by blocking los from other player.
Much hypocrisies ?

NB burst-heal ? Oh can't heal himself with it.
Templar burst ? Heal the lowest around, cost 2time more, deal no dmg
DK burst-heal ? Need a target, still heal the lowest, can stun, ridiculous dmg cost 2 time more than twilight and the heal is slow to come.
Warden burst-heal ? Aoe burst, the more costlty of all burst, the lower burst amount + little regen buff (probably the most reliable since it will always heal you)
Necro ? Still don't have test class, can't say anything
And then :
Sorc : Twilight matri : Free constant high dmg for free + Heal 2 ppl + no target required + Can block skill with body in pvp, can't die in pve, cost 2 time less than any other burst.

Humm, yeah, definitely a weak burst who don't need a nerf right ?

I play all the class as healer, so, sorry for you, but I know every toolkit for that.
Sorc is atm the easiest healer to play by far due to matri cheapness.

Why you don't play other class pvp or pve doesn't matter to see how their "heal on demand" are so great ?
So great thant no one slot them.
Sorc got heal through dmg like everyone with Surge and still have shield who despite nerf is still stronger than the other mag class can use and you still got matri even if she do less dmg it continue to do some.

I agree they shouldn't have nerf the other DPS morph, but matri is a healer skill not a DPS one. You want it ? You sacrifice some DPS like other class is they slot their burst, logic.

All I see in your comment is "they remove my easy-win/stay alive button now i'll have to learn how to play *cry*"
Sorc and NB are really the 2 class player I see flood the forum for nothing every single time, geez..

Sorc is fine, all he need now is some skill to match a healer play-style cuz he got no one outside of matri.

Edit :
Also since now it's gonna be nerf and be balanced, they should remove the double-bar slot for pet (except ultimate bear)
Imho double slot for 1 skill is a bad design.

Surge in Pvp? Surge only works with crit. Who does crit builds in Pvp? Woule be silly. Plus, evenif it crits (Which wont be more than 20-40% of the times), it will heal for 1,2k health... Do you really Surge is an acceptable heal? Only someone who would want to see his opponent death would say that. Surge is fine in PvE if you couple it with shields, but shields have been nerfed and for a class with so bad sustain, would be unbareable to play them.

I play other classes apart from Sorc (actually my Templar is my main and lately ive been play my stamden way more than my Sorc). Matriarch is a great heal, but the reason to use is simple the DPS it provides. No DD will use ever a 2 slots heal. Futhermore, HtD costs the same as the Matriarch heal, not double. And heals for more, btw. Usually 11k vs 8k of the Matriarch in PvE. Matriach heal doesn´t get spell power bonus, just magicka one. Stamina classes dont really need a class heal: they have Vigor which is the beat heal in the game. And it costs way less than the Matriarch. Don´t forget the Matriarch do good DPS only if using Daedric, that means THREE skill slots. I know you haters want to put things in a vacuum - now tell me what a class can do with three skill slots. And now the DPS will be around 1k ... still thinking it´s worthy?

I play a Templar healer and Templar goes MILES far away as good healer as a Sorc. More group utility, much better healing skills, and most important, much better SUSTAIN. Sustain is everything for a healer, and Sorc has horrible one.

Oh, and about the shields: having "better" shields than other classes dont make shields good enough to be used usually. They all will suck. Specially for a low sustain class.

To be honest as a healer, i see after healing changes that for vet trials content it won´t be easy to heal away from Templar and maybe Warden. For a Sorc healer even vet DLC dungeons and normal trials won´t be easy at all.

Your commentary isn´t better than others trying to prove their point. You just choose the data you need to prove your point, dont play the class obviously or make a fake Sorc. Again, you´re in the wheel exactly the same as the people you´re critizing.

Transairion · July 2019

If OP started discussion, magsorc is weak in PVE with this changes, magsorc will be forced to use generic skills... but thread is named, "matriarch is worse then shade". This is simply wrong, because I don't know what might be worse then new nerfed shade (in PVE). New shade is simply dead morph, while matriarch still can be used on healer and dpsing morph is quite viable, there was 90k parse over there with tormentor..

Can you elaborate on why a cost increase kills all versions of Shade?

Summon Shade: Increased the cost for this ability and its morphs to 4050 from 2700.

Unmorphed Damage Pets (no passives taken into account)

Summon Shade: 4050 for 15s (PTS)

Summon Skeletal Mage: 4320 for 16s (PTS)

Summon Unstable Familiar: 3510 for indefinite; 2808 for active (PTS)

Summon Winged Twilight: 3510 for indefinite; 3510 for active

Summon Storm Antronach: 200 Ultimate for 21 seconds (Immobile Ultimate)

Feral Guardian: 0 for indefinite; 75 Ult for active (Ultimate)

Given Shade is single-barred and provides both utility and actual decent DPS now, why should it cost less than the double-barred Sorceror pets? 4050 every 15s is a long time for Magblade to regain that magicka, and shouldn't Stamblade only be using it sparingly? The Shade teleport morph is free to teleport once placed, no?

As has already been said, Twilight Tormentor has always been a dead morph/"noob trap" because quite simply it only does Shock Damage and nothing else... and it's very easy to slot 2 different DPS skills in those slots and outDPS it (three slots if you count having to spam Daedric Prey). Twilight Matriarch provides an emergency heal at all times, Tormentor's active ability doesn't even function from 49% HP and below.

An easy way to give the Tormentor something to make it an actual choice would be something like:

Summon Twilight Tormentor
Call on Azura to send a twilight tormentor to fight at your side. The twilight tormentor's zaps deal [2757 / 2879 / 2999 / 3118] Shock Damage and its kicks deal [2416 / 2520 / 2626 / 2730] Shock Damage. Once summoned, you can activate the twilight tormentor's special ability, causing it to deal [50 / 51 / 52 / 53]% more damage to enemies above 50% Health and apply Minor Lifesteal for 15 seconds. The twilight tormentor remains until killed or unsummoned.

Slow damage-based healing VS instant burst healing, an actual choice you can build around.

Right now we've got "instant burst healing at all times" VS "half a fight you get higher damage then have no active". Lowering Matriarch DPS does nothing to change that horrible active ability, and especially not nerfing Tormentor's base damage which is the only thing it actually does.