Twilight Matriarch balanced in a vacuum, now weaker than Summon Shade (PvE)

kalunte

biased op. the fact that matriarch does not have to be casted each time but is likely eternal should be listed.
matriarch can save your ass by taking your dmg
matriarch focus can be managed, shadow image cant.
matriach do things with a cost of 0 (called dmg and taking for you to stay alive)

matriach keeps on doing dmg, remember refreshings path doesnt anymore.

i didnt read all answers, just wanted to had those 2cents ^^

Derra

kalunte wrote: »

biased op. the fact that matriarch does not have to be casted each time but is likely eternal should be listed.
matriarch can save your ass by taking your dmg
matriarch focus can be managed, shadow image cant.
matriach do things with a cost of 0 (called dmg and taking for you to stay alive)

matriach keeps on doing dmg, remember refreshings path doesnt anymore.

i didnt read all answers, just wanted to had those 2cents ^^

Wanna bet no NB in the game would keep slotting the pts version of matriarch over shade + any other skill if they had the choice after testing the skill?

msalvia

As a sorc main, I am pumped about pet nerfs. Finally i can play a petless sorc without gimping myself, and other players can't call me trash anymore (lol, yeah right, still gonna get hate whispers in pvp).

msalvia

Betty_Booms wrote: »

Yeah balance means nerf to the ground in this game.

Matriach needed changes... but got sledged instead...

Matriarch needed big changes and them. It's now working as the devs intended--as a low-damage, healer-focused morph. Now we have to pick between high damage or healing. That's balance working as intended.

drummindrummer

I'm pretty sure OP was talking about PVE. I understand most people on this forum are PVP'ers and you guys are the most vocal, obviously. But, not everyone cares about PVP. From a PVE dps perspective, these changes are bad. It takes 3 skill slots to do more damage than a 1 skill slot shade, while remaining some sort of a heal that is generally needed in PVE content (4 mans especially), and even more so after the healing nerfs coming next patch.

ZOS's inability to some way, shape or form separate PVE and PVP....that.....is the biggest problem with this game

drummindrummer

So..looking at OP's post in a PVE perspective makes all of his points entirely valid.

Only when looked at in a PVP perspective do some of them become invalid.

Which again brings us to the same conclusion as my previous post.

Aznarb

universal_wrath wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Line of Sight-able (PvP)
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Ranged morph buggy (PvP)
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Tormentor got nerfed too, that's what erks me since it was a lously morph to begin with. Not including the tormentor is a fault I put in the OP as it serves the DD role.

Breath of life could be compared to Matriarch's heal, unfortunately the OP was comparing two pets, not two heals, unless I've missed something.

Even if you compare two heals, breath of life is still far superior to matriach. First, it only takes 1 bar and that is a big thing. Second, it's not a summon so it does not die. Third, if I'm not mistaken it scales on both max magicka and spell dmg, were as matraich heal only buffed by max magicka. Forth, breath of life heal increased as health decrease due to templar passives, matriach heal is not supported by any passives of sorcs. Last thing, Breath of life/ honor of the dead give you 2 different play style, first teamplay and other selfish and sustain suppoerted, while matriach is only teamplay even though most sorcs are solo.

Note: now matraich dmg has decreased significanly, there is no reason for the skills to stay as dauble bars skill and should be as such treated as 1 bad.

Hum, no.
That only for pvp, and even in pvp all is not like you said.

Maybe you've to use 2 slot for matriarch, and ?
Huge amount of free damage + burst heal : already worth 2 slot, but let continue :
It CAN'T die in pve DG/Trial, so no problem here.
Matriarch cost 2 time less mana than BoL, Heal for more (yeah, she heal 2 person for 2 time less than BoL)
No LoS required.

In which universe this skill is weaker than BoL ?
It's far superior to BoL, doesn't matter the morph, BoL is not selfish, it heal lower allies around not just you.
Even after the nerf it still far superior to BoL as an emergency heal.


My Sorc heal is my go-to for any 4 man content cuz it's so easy to build for heal + 25k dmg+
Sorc is gonna be weaker for heal cuz of the grand healing change, not cuz of the damage nerf..
Sorc was lacking utility as trial healer, not power-heal or damage.

Tourmentor is what you LF if you want to compare to Shade, not Twilight..
Ofc Twilight was deserved a nerf and pet sorc in general due to how stupidly easy and effective they're.
Some people already tryed PTS change and it's nothing more than a general buff to magika DPS despite what ppl say here.
Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

As a healer I'll get hit way more than any DPS drama-queen here, and I don't complain, I'm already theory-crafting and farming to keep all class healer useful even if not easy ; do the same, most people here despite their whining know ZoS will not come back.

drummindrummer

Aznarb wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Line of Sight-able (PvP)
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Ranged morph buggy (PvP)
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Tormentor got nerfed too, that's what erks me since it was a lously morph to begin with. Not including the tormentor is a fault I put in the OP as it serves the DD role.

Breath of life could be compared to Matriarch's heal, unfortunately the OP was comparing two pets, not two heals, unless I've missed something.

Even if you compare two heals, breath of life is still far superior to matriach. First, it only takes 1 bar and that is a big thing. Second, it's not a summon so it does not die. Third, if I'm not mistaken it scales on both max magicka and spell dmg, were as matraich heal only buffed by max magicka. Forth, breath of life heal increased as health decrease due to templar passives, matriach heal is not supported by any passives of sorcs. Last thing, Breath of life/ honor of the dead give you 2 different play style, first teamplay and other selfish and sustain suppoerted, while matriach is only teamplay even though most sorcs are solo.

Note: now matraich dmg has decreased significanly, there is no reason for the skills to stay as dauble bars skill and should be as such treated as 1 bad.

Hum, no.
That only for pvp, and even in pvp all is not like you said.

Maybe you've to use 2 slot for matriarch, and ?
Huge amount of free damage + burst heal : already worth 2 slot, but let continue :
It CAN'T die in pve DG/Trial, so no problem here.
Matriarch cost 2 time less mana than BoL, Heal for more (yeah, she heal 2 person for 2 time less than BoL)
No LoS required.

In which universe this skill is weaker than BoL ?
It's far superior to BoL, doesn't matter the morph, BoL is not selfish, it heal lower allies around not just you.
Even after the nerf it still far superior to BoL as an emergency heal.


My Sorc heal is my go-to for any 4 man content cuz it's so easy to build for heal + 25k dmg+
Sorc is gonna be weaker for heal cuz of the grand healing change, not cuz of the damage nerf..
Sorc was lacking utility as trial healer, not power-heal or damage.

Tourmentor is what you LF if you want to compare to Shade, not Twilight..
Ofc Twilight was deserved a nerf and pet sorc in general due to how stupidly easy and effective they're.
Some people already tryed PTS change and it's nothing more than a general buff to magika DPS despite what ppl say here.
Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

As a healer I'll get hit way more than any DPS drama-queen here, and I don't complain, I'm already theory-crafting and farming to keep all class healer useful even if not easy ; do the same, most people here despite their whining know ZoS will not come back.

I think you are forgetting one big point. It takes TWO slots so it should have at least close to TWO functions. I'm not necessarily whining lol. Just stating facts.

I am actually one of those people that have been testing on PTS and was still able to get 90k with pet sorc on the trial dummy. But guess what, I had to drop the bird. Both morphs are a dps loss compared to other skills. Which means as a dps we lose our emergency heal.

drummindrummer

Was it hitting a little too hard before, probably yeah.

Was it nerfed too hard, definitely yeah

Aznarb

drummindrummer wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Line of Sight-able (PvP)
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Ranged morph buggy (PvP)
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Tormentor got nerfed too, that's what erks me since it was a lously morph to begin with. Not including the tormentor is a fault I put in the OP as it serves the DD role.

Breath of life could be compared to Matriarch's heal, unfortunately the OP was comparing two pets, not two heals, unless I've missed something.

Even if you compare two heals, breath of life is still far superior to matriach. First, it only takes 1 bar and that is a big thing. Second, it's not a summon so it does not die. Third, if I'm not mistaken it scales on both max magicka and spell dmg, were as matraich heal only buffed by max magicka. Forth, breath of life heal increased as health decrease due to templar passives, matriach heal is not supported by any passives of sorcs. Last thing, Breath of life/ honor of the dead give you 2 different play style, first teamplay and other selfish and sustain suppoerted, while matriach is only teamplay even though most sorcs are solo.

Note: now matraich dmg has decreased significanly, there is no reason for the skills to stay as dauble bars skill and should be as such treated as 1 bad.

Hum, no.
That only for pvp, and even in pvp all is not like you said.

Maybe you've to use 2 slot for matriarch, and ?
Huge amount of free damage + burst heal : already worth 2 slot, but let continue :
It CAN'T die in pve DG/Trial, so no problem here.
Matriarch cost 2 time less mana than BoL, Heal for more (yeah, she heal 2 person for 2 time less than BoL)
No LoS required.

In which universe this skill is weaker than BoL ?
It's far superior to BoL, doesn't matter the morph, BoL is not selfish, it heal lower allies around not just you.
Even after the nerf it still far superior to BoL as an emergency heal.


My Sorc heal is my go-to for any 4 man content cuz it's so easy to build for heal + 25k dmg+
Sorc is gonna be weaker for heal cuz of the grand healing change, not cuz of the damage nerf..
Sorc was lacking utility as trial healer, not power-heal or damage.

Tourmentor is what you LF if you want to compare to Shade, not Twilight..
Ofc Twilight was deserved a nerf and pet sorc in general due to how stupidly easy and effective they're.
Some people already tryed PTS change and it's nothing more than a general buff to magika DPS despite what ppl say here.
Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

As a healer I'll get hit way more than any DPS drama-queen here, and I don't complain, I'm already theory-crafting and farming to keep all class healer useful even if not easy ; do the same, most people here despite their whining know ZoS will not come back.

I think you are forgetting one big point. It takes TWO slots so it should have at least close to TWO functions. I'm not necessarily whining lol. Just stating facts.

I am actually one of those people that have been testing on PTS and was still able to get 90k with pet sorc on the trial dummy. But guess what, I had to drop the bird. Both morphs are a dps loss compared to other skills. Which means as a dps we lose our emergency heal.

Quoting myself :

Aznarb wrote:

Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

Healing matri still good for healer.
You still have surge and shield, that already more than most, if not all other magika DPS.
You wanna be lazy and use pet for dmg and heal ? You'll lose dmg.
You wanna improve and do damage ? Take the new option.

I'm not the guy in charge, like you and ZoS have proven many time they don't care about.
Pet sorc deserve the nerf, but don't act like your class is the only one with skill nerf, most class got skill nerf and some no-class skill got buff to replace.
Do we like it ? Not so much. Can we do something ? Not really, that why my point is : move on.

You just prove yourself than you can pull 90k despite nerf, so all good.
You wont use matriarch ? And ? Was you using entropy or soul trap before buff ? No.
You lost one skill who take to slot you got 2 for replace, perfect, in fact you even use flame reach now, one more.
Would love to get some heal to replace the lost me too, but I don't have them, and I'm not making thread complaining all day long.

Transairion

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

In the context of the damage morph being really bad, Matriarch being nerfed that hard on top of Tormentor is a hard pill to swallow. Remember, Twilight Tormentor has no active ability if the target goes below 50% HP, you spend Magicka for no effect. Higher base damage is meaningless without any utility at all and a broken active component, so post-nerf Matriarch is STILL more appealing.

The second Twilight Matriarch becomes weaker than any DPS skill + any heal skill (two skills for two slots) it becomes really hard to justify using it is the problem.

drummindrummer

Aznarb wrote: »

drummindrummer wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Line of Sight-able (PvP)
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Ranged morph buggy (PvP)
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Tormentor got nerfed too, that's what erks me since it was a lously morph to begin with. Not including the tormentor is a fault I put in the OP as it serves the DD role.

Breath of life could be compared to Matriarch's heal, unfortunately the OP was comparing two pets, not two heals, unless I've missed something.

Even if you compare two heals, breath of life is still far superior to matriach. First, it only takes 1 bar and that is a big thing. Second, it's not a summon so it does not die. Third, if I'm not mistaken it scales on both max magicka and spell dmg, were as matraich heal only buffed by max magicka. Forth, breath of life heal increased as health decrease due to templar passives, matriach heal is not supported by any passives of sorcs. Last thing, Breath of life/ honor of the dead give you 2 different play style, first teamplay and other selfish and sustain suppoerted, while matriach is only teamplay even though most sorcs are solo.

Note: now matraich dmg has decreased significanly, there is no reason for the skills to stay as dauble bars skill and should be as such treated as 1 bad.

Hum, no.
That only for pvp, and even in pvp all is not like you said.

Maybe you've to use 2 slot for matriarch, and ?
Huge amount of free damage + burst heal : already worth 2 slot, but let continue :
It CAN'T die in pve DG/Trial, so no problem here.
Matriarch cost 2 time less mana than BoL, Heal for more (yeah, she heal 2 person for 2 time less than BoL)
No LoS required.

In which universe this skill is weaker than BoL ?
It's far superior to BoL, doesn't matter the morph, BoL is not selfish, it heal lower allies around not just you.
Even after the nerf it still far superior to BoL as an emergency heal.


My Sorc heal is my go-to for any 4 man content cuz it's so easy to build for heal + 25k dmg+
Sorc is gonna be weaker for heal cuz of the grand healing change, not cuz of the damage nerf..
Sorc was lacking utility as trial healer, not power-heal or damage.

Tourmentor is what you LF if you want to compare to Shade, not Twilight..
Ofc Twilight was deserved a nerf and pet sorc in general due to how stupidly easy and effective they're.
Some people already tryed PTS change and it's nothing more than a general buff to magika DPS despite what ppl say here.
Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

As a healer I'll get hit way more than any DPS drama-queen here, and I don't complain, I'm already theory-crafting and farming to keep all class healer useful even if not easy ; do the same, most people here despite their whining know ZoS will not come back.

I think you are forgetting one big point. It takes TWO slots so it should have at least close to TWO functions. I'm not necessarily whining lol. Just stating facts.

I am actually one of those people that have been testing on PTS and was still able to get 90k with pet sorc on the trial dummy. But guess what, I had to drop the bird. Both morphs are a dps loss compared to other skills. Which means as a dps we lose our emergency heal.

Quoting myself :

Aznarb wrote:

Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

Healing matri still good for healer.
You still have surge and shield, that already more than most, if not all other magika DPS.
You wanna be lazy and use pet for dmg and heal ? You'll lose dmg.
You wanna improve and do damage ? Take the new option.

I'm not the guy in charge, like you and ZoS have proven many time they don't care about.
Pet sorc deserve the nerf, but don't act like your class is the only one with skill nerf, most class got skill nerf and some no-class skill got buff to replace.
Do we like it ? Not so much. Can we do something ? Not really, that why my point is : move on.

You just prove yourself than you can pull 90k despite nerf, so all good.
You wont use matriarch ? And ? Was you using entropy or soul trap before buff ? No.
You lost one skill who take to slot you got 2 for replace, perfect, in fact you even use flame reach now, one more.
Would love to get some heal to replace the lost me too, but I don't have them, and I'm not making thread complaining all day long.

lol bro, i do like "near" top dps on multiple classes. im just stating my opinions, along with some facts lol

Zer0_CooL

Just put the bird on bothe bars then you'll have two of them.

drummindrummer

its the point that is takes two skill slots and so should do more damage than it does. can i change it, hell yeah i can. and i did, look at my parse. im just stating that they nerfed the damage too much....simple

drummindrummer

and i pve perspective, considering its only single target

drummindrummer

just because someone decides to share their opinions and concerns, does not always mean they are "whining" or "crying".

they are legitimate concerns due to ZOS's inability to balance, especially when it comes to pve. i understand, with pvp its usually crying lol

Transairion

So, not only did he pick a healing morp vs a damage morp. (bad judgement call)

Matriarch is a morph with lower tooltip than a un-morphed utility pet... yes I think the comparison is valid. Until ELSWEYR patch Summon Shade was for utility only which is why it has so much of it and had bottom-of-the-barrel DPS.

Doing less damage than Shade does means the damage is really, really bad.

He picked an ability that has been broken for an eternity, without any acknowledgement from the devs.

As far as I know only the Shade teleport morph is broken when attempting to teleport between uneven terrain (IE up and down Keep walls in PvP), and in PvE it usually works due to flat playing fields. If the other morph and base skill and broken too, how so?

And this patch when the devs finally address shade, they simply nerf it with a huge increase in cost. lol

ELSWEYR patch:
This ability now scales with the caster's Max Magicka and Spell Damage, or Stamina and Weapon Damage.

Given it scales better than all Sorceror pets now (no Spell Damage scaling on them apart from Volatile pulse?), a cost increase is a slap on the wrist.

Aznarb

drummindrummer wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

drummindrummer wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Line of Sight-able (PvP)
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Ranged morph buggy (PvP)
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Tormentor got nerfed too, that's what erks me since it was a lously morph to begin with. Not including the tormentor is a fault I put in the OP as it serves the DD role.

Breath of life could be compared to Matriarch's heal, unfortunately the OP was comparing two pets, not two heals, unless I've missed something.

Even if you compare two heals, breath of life is still far superior to matriach. First, it only takes 1 bar and that is a big thing. Second, it's not a summon so it does not die. Third, if I'm not mistaken it scales on both max magicka and spell dmg, were as matraich heal only buffed by max magicka. Forth, breath of life heal increased as health decrease due to templar passives, matriach heal is not supported by any passives of sorcs. Last thing, Breath of life/ honor of the dead give you 2 different play style, first teamplay and other selfish and sustain suppoerted, while matriach is only teamplay even though most sorcs are solo.

Note: now matraich dmg has decreased significanly, there is no reason for the skills to stay as dauble bars skill and should be as such treated as 1 bad.

Hum, no.
That only for pvp, and even in pvp all is not like you said.

Maybe you've to use 2 slot for matriarch, and ?
Huge amount of free damage + burst heal : already worth 2 slot, but let continue :
It CAN'T die in pve DG/Trial, so no problem here.
Matriarch cost 2 time less mana than BoL, Heal for more (yeah, she heal 2 person for 2 time less than BoL)
No LoS required.

In which universe this skill is weaker than BoL ?
It's far superior to BoL, doesn't matter the morph, BoL is not selfish, it heal lower allies around not just you.
Even after the nerf it still far superior to BoL as an emergency heal.


My Sorc heal is my go-to for any 4 man content cuz it's so easy to build for heal + 25k dmg+
Sorc is gonna be weaker for heal cuz of the grand healing change, not cuz of the damage nerf..
Sorc was lacking utility as trial healer, not power-heal or damage.

Tourmentor is what you LF if you want to compare to Shade, not Twilight..
Ofc Twilight was deserved a nerf and pet sorc in general due to how stupidly easy and effective they're.
Some people already tryed PTS change and it's nothing more than a general buff to magika DPS despite what ppl say here.
Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

As a healer I'll get hit way more than any DPS drama-queen here, and I don't complain, I'm already theory-crafting and farming to keep all class healer useful even if not easy ; do the same, most people here despite their whining know ZoS will not come back.

I think you are forgetting one big point. It takes TWO slots so it should have at least close to TWO functions. I'm not necessarily whining lol. Just stating facts.

I am actually one of those people that have been testing on PTS and was still able to get 90k with pet sorc on the trial dummy. But guess what, I had to drop the bird. Both morphs are a dps loss compared to other skills. Which means as a dps we lose our emergency heal.

Quoting myself :

Aznarb wrote:

Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

Healing matri still good for healer.
You still have surge and shield, that already more than most, if not all other magika DPS.
You wanna be lazy and use pet for dmg and heal ? You'll lose dmg.
You wanna improve and do damage ? Take the new option.

I'm not the guy in charge, like you and ZoS have proven many time they don't care about.
Pet sorc deserve the nerf, but don't act like your class is the only one with skill nerf, most class got skill nerf and some no-class skill got buff to replace.
Do we like it ? Not so much. Can we do something ? Not really, that why my point is : move on.

You just prove yourself than you can pull 90k despite nerf, so all good.
You wont use matriarch ? And ? Was you using entropy or soul trap before buff ? No.
You lost one skill who take to slot you got 2 for replace, perfect, in fact you even use flame reach now, one more.
Would love to get some heal to replace the lost me too, but I don't have them, and I'm not making thread complaining all day long.

lol bro, i do like "near" top dps on multiple classes. I'm just stating my opinions, along with some facts lol

So I do, I'm not blaming you or anything, just stating fact about new and totally competitive option, that all.
Like I said, any class/role (except tank maybe), got impacted in play style, no choice to adapt.

drummindrummer

Aznarb wrote: »

drummindrummer wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

drummindrummer wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Line of Sight-able (PvP)
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Ranged morph buggy (PvP)
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Tormentor got nerfed too, that's what erks me since it was a lously morph to begin with. Not including the tormentor is a fault I put in the OP as it serves the DD role.

Breath of life could be compared to Matriarch's heal, unfortunately the OP was comparing two pets, not two heals, unless I've missed something.

Even if you compare two heals, breath of life is still far superior to matriach. First, it only takes 1 bar and that is a big thing. Second, it's not a summon so it does not die. Third, if I'm not mistaken it scales on both max magicka and spell dmg, were as matraich heal only buffed by max magicka. Forth, breath of life heal increased as health decrease due to templar passives, matriach heal is not supported by any passives of sorcs. Last thing, Breath of life/ honor of the dead give you 2 different play style, first teamplay and other selfish and sustain suppoerted, while matriach is only teamplay even though most sorcs are solo.

Note: now matraich dmg has decreased significanly, there is no reason for the skills to stay as dauble bars skill and should be as such treated as 1 bad.

Hum, no.
That only for pvp, and even in pvp all is not like you said.

Maybe you've to use 2 slot for matriarch, and ?
Huge amount of free damage + burst heal : already worth 2 slot, but let continue :
It CAN'T die in pve DG/Trial, so no problem here.
Matriarch cost 2 time less mana than BoL, Heal for more (yeah, she heal 2 person for 2 time less than BoL)
No LoS required.

In which universe this skill is weaker than BoL ?
It's far superior to BoL, doesn't matter the morph, BoL is not selfish, it heal lower allies around not just you.
Even after the nerf it still far superior to BoL as an emergency heal.


My Sorc heal is my go-to for any 4 man content cuz it's so easy to build for heal + 25k dmg+
Sorc is gonna be weaker for heal cuz of the grand healing change, not cuz of the damage nerf..
Sorc was lacking utility as trial healer, not power-heal or damage.

Tourmentor is what you LF if you want to compare to Shade, not Twilight..
Ofc Twilight was deserved a nerf and pet sorc in general due to how stupidly easy and effective they're.
Some people already tryed PTS change and it's nothing more than a general buff to magika DPS despite what ppl say here.
Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

As a healer I'll get hit way more than any DPS drama-queen here, and I don't complain, I'm already theory-crafting and farming to keep all class healer useful even if not easy ; do the same, most people here despite their whining know ZoS will not come back.

I think you are forgetting one big point. It takes TWO slots so it should have at least close to TWO functions. I'm not necessarily whining lol. Just stating facts.

I am actually one of those people that have been testing on PTS and was still able to get 90k with pet sorc on the trial dummy. But guess what, I had to drop the bird. Both morphs are a dps loss compared to other skills. Which means as a dps we lose our emergency heal.

Quoting myself :

Aznarb wrote:

Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

Healing matri still good for healer.
You still have surge and shield, that already more than most, if not all other magika DPS.
You wanna be lazy and use pet for dmg and heal ? You'll lose dmg.
You wanna improve and do damage ? Take the new option.

I'm not the guy in charge, like you and ZoS have proven many time they don't care about.
Pet sorc deserve the nerf, but don't act like your class is the only one with skill nerf, most class got skill nerf and some no-class skill got buff to replace.
Do we like it ? Not so much. Can we do something ? Not really, that why my point is : move on.

You just prove yourself than you can pull 90k despite nerf, so all good.
You wont use matriarch ? And ? Was you using entropy or soul trap before buff ? No.
You lost one skill who take to slot you got 2 for replace, perfect, in fact you even use flame reach now, one more.
Would love to get some heal to replace the lost me too, but I don't have them, and I'm not making thread complaining all day long.

lol bro, i do like "near" top dps on multiple classes. I'm just stating my opinions, along with some facts lol

So I do, I'm not blaming you or anything, just stating fact about new and totally competitive option, that all.
Like I said, any class/role (except tank maybe), got impacted in play style, no choice to adapt.

oh yeah i totally agree. i just was making a comment on a post someone made about a class i like.

Vahrokh

SirMewser wrote: »

Delete your Pet Sorc, uninstall, play another game. Zos doesn't care.

After playing pet magsorcs since open beta, I'd say this is the ONLY fix you can ever hope to get.

Vahrokh

Runefang wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

From a PVE perspective, the Matriarch might have been OP, but overall the MagSorc class was not even close to being OP. This just further emaciates an already week PVE class. No one is going to waste 2 bar slots for a burst heal. And to get even a modicum of damage out of pets you need to include Daedric Prey. So that's a full 50% of bar space for little return. Some of you PVP pet haters may celebrate, but to those of us who main a MagSorc in PVE and don't do PVP, these changes feel totally punitive for no good rational reason. I mean, come on...a 69% reduction in damage? That's not just a nerf, that's a sledgehammer crushing an entire build.

I mean calling them already weak in PvE is wrong. They’re stronger than every mag toon except Magplars in PvE and at least they provide conduit synergies.

I call huge BS on this.

Every single of our stamblades can reliably do > 80k DPS on trials. Pet magsorcs can't even dream that.

Vahrokh

And once again, PvP outcry kills PvE. And ZOS as a company is unable to separate the two, so we have to always be flamed for PVP and SUCK in PvE, which is the only ESO activity I care for.

Royalthought

Transairion wrote: »

So, not only did he pick a healing morp vs a damage morp. (bad judgement call)

Matriarch is a morph with lower tooltip than a un-morphed utility pet... yes I think the comparison is valid. Until ELSWEYR patch Summon Shade was for utility only which is why it has so much of it and had bottom-of-the-barrel DPS.

Doing less damage than Shade does means the damage is really, really bad.

He picked an ability that has been broken for an eternity, without any acknowledgement from the devs.

As far as I know only the Shade teleport morph is broken when attempting to teleport between uneven terrain (IE up and down Keep walls in PvP), and in PvE it usually works due to flat playing fields. If the other morph and base skill and broken too, how so?

And this patch when the devs finally address shade, they simply nerf it with a huge increase in cost. lol

ELSWEYR patch:
This ability now scales with the caster's Max Magicka and Spell Damage, or Stamina and Weapon Damage.

Given it scales better than all Sorceror pets now (no Spell Damage scaling on them apart from Volatile pulse?), a cost increase is a slap on the wrist.

1. How much healing does shade do?
2. Nightblades utilities got nerfed too. Go look at refeshing path. Does path do more damage than matriarch?
3. Jump off a rock, you can shade port up. Jump down a few steps in a keep and it wont work = broken.
4. At 4k the cost increase is huge, especially considering #3 when it may be wasted due to not working, forcing a recast, if even possible.

And to reiterate, if you see ways to improve the class or even matriarch, I'm all for it. You get that? I support it.

But the point still stands that how the OP went about it was wrong. We could've judged the skill based on its own merits and that would've been perfectly fine. Instead the OP chose to compare skills and used the "vacuum" approach to ignore all context and better comparisons.

We are complaining about a healing skill that does free damage, not doing as much damage as a more expensive skill, that must be recast and does no healing. On a class that was once known for healing from damage yet had the damage nerfed or removed completely. lol. Irony much?

How about we look at Feral Guardian for a better comparison? Not only does it take up two slots, but two ULTIMATE'S! It's MELEE range only and does NO healing.

But that would make matriarch look like it was too good. Perhaps we should judge a unique skill on its own merits...

Derra

msalvia wrote: »

Betty_Booms wrote: »

Yeah balance means nerf to the ground in this game.

Matriach needed changes... but got sledged instead...

Matriarch needed big changes and them. It's now working as the devs intended--as a low-damage, healer-focused morph. Now we have to pick between high damage or healing. That's balance working as intended.

How is nerfing an ability to the point that you´re objectively better of replacing with two other abilities balanced in any way?

Both twilight morphs are dead on pts. How can people enjoy abilities being entirely useless for the class they alledgedly main?
Did people actually enjoy when every sorc in cyro was just a carbon copy of one another because there was literally 0 build variety for the class? That the state you wish for sorc to be in?

Undefwun

karekiz wrote: »

Blame premade system instead. Its the worst part about battleground. Just wait two/three months post patch and you will see "X COMBO IS RUINING BG's" since thats how arena style games work, you find a mechanic and exploit it. Banning premades would fix much of the issues surrounding class balance as no class could systemically have set + class combo's favoring their team over randoms.

That or just make BG's 6/8 V 6/8 and make them more casual style because lets be honest. ESO isn't a competitive game, and certainly no PvP one.

Agreed on both points.
1) Premades are an issue as the system is now
2) Yes alot of ppl are garbage. they see something broken and exploit it. and the excuse? "other ppl are doing it.. zos put it in the game". Nope you are still a PoS and yes a lot of them will now migrate to the next broken thing, because heaven forbid they play a non broken class.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Purple flying crutch chicken

That actually made me laugh

Derra wrote: »

The pet loses effectivity the more opponents are involved in a fight.

So you are saying it gets harder to fight multiple opponents? Wow pretty sure that goes for any class....

But to see just how effective it really could be, please open your browser to youtube and type "pelican outnumbered sorcerer" and look at the vids from the last couple patches. The LoS breaking, the burst setup and the survivability.

Shantu

I still think the the massive nerf to Twilight damage is unjustified. Seems like they did it solely to fit some theoretical model than anything that fits common sense. Twilight was a great skill for Sorcs. It made them that unforgivable word...FUN. Yeah, it may have been a bit OP when narrowly viewed out of the context that MagSorcs were NOT anywhere near OP as a class. Then again, I don't play PVP, which seems to be the source of most of the recent nerf-mania. If the change goes live, Twilight is essentially DOA.

SirMewser

Aznarb wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Line of Sight-able (PvP)
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Ranged morph buggy (PvP)
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Tormentor got nerfed too, that's what erks me since it was a lously morph to begin with. Not including the tormentor is a fault I put in the OP as it serves the DD role.

Breath of life could be compared to Matriarch's heal, unfortunately the OP was comparing two pets, not two heals, unless I've missed something.

Even if you compare two heals, breath of life is still far superior to matriach. First, it only takes 1 bar and that is a big thing. Second, it's not a summon so it does not die. Third, if I'm not mistaken it scales on both max magicka and spell dmg, were as matraich heal only buffed by max magicka. Forth, breath of life heal increased as health decrease due to templar passives, matriach heal is not supported by any passives of sorcs. Last thing, Breath of life/ honor of the dead give you 2 different play style, first teamplay and other selfish and sustain suppoerted, while matriach is only teamplay even though most sorcs are solo.

Note: now matraich dmg has decreased significanly, there is no reason for the skills to stay as dauble bars skill and should be as such treated as 1 bad.

Hum, no.
That only for pvp, and even in pvp all is not like you said.

Maybe you've to use 2 slot for matriarch, and ?
Huge amount of free damage + burst heal : already worth 2 slot, but let continue :
It CAN'T die in pve DG/Trial, so no problem here.
Matriarch cost 2 time less mana than BoL, Heal for more (yeah, she heal 2 person for 2 time less than BoL)
No LoS required.

In which universe this skill is weaker than BoL ?
It's far superior to BoL, doesn't matter the morph, BoL is not selfish, it heal lower allies around not just you.
Even after the nerf it still far superior to BoL as an emergency heal.


My Sorc heal is my go-to for any 4 man content cuz it's so easy to build for heal + 25k dmg+
Sorc is gonna be weaker for heal cuz of the grand healing change, not cuz of the damage nerf..
Sorc was lacking utility as trial healer, not power-heal or damage.

Tourmentor is what you LF if you want to compare to Shade, not Twilight..
Ofc Twilight was deserved a nerf and pet sorc in general due to how stupidly easy and effective they're.
Some people already tryed PTS change and it's nothing more than a general buff to magika DPS despite what ppl say here.
Yeah you will have to change some thing, that the purpose of this big patch : change thing.

As a healer I'll get hit way more than any DPS drama-queen here, and I don't complain, I'm already theory-crafting and farming to keep all class healer useful even if not easy ; do the same, most people here despite their whining know ZoS will not come back.

I think you're forgetting it costs two slots, when compared to two alternatives it's more reasonable to agree with statements.
I still gave you an insightful because I agree with you points, it's just the way you've worded it is a bit subjective.

Derra

Undefwun wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The pet loses effectivity the more opponents are involved in a fight.

So you are saying it gets harder to fight multiple opponents? Wow pretty sure that goes for any class....

But to see just how effective it really could be, please open your browser to youtube and type "pelican outnumbered sorcerer" and look at the vids from the last couple patches. The LoS breaking, the burst setup and the survivability.

Any comment that starts with so you are saying is 100% sure to turn into a strawman argument right after that phrase. No this is not what i´m saying. You need to learn to read and understand what is written.

The pet loses effectivity the more opponents are involved.
A normal skill does not. It acts the same way mostly regardless of how many opponents are there. An aoe skill will gain effectivity with more opponents in a fight.
Pets are the only skill that scales inverse to this. Massively op vs a single opponent and get weaker with opponent number rising.

I don´t need to google a petsorc with harness + hardened stack. Nobody is arguing that the pet or harness are hardcore carry mechanics in the current live version of the game for a solo sorc.
My comment was about group use of the pet. I even excluded soloing because of the bugs boosting pet survivability - one line below the comment you quoted and then proceeded to talk about a solo sorc video. Congratulations.

This topic is about the pts version which is useless crap.

Aedaryl

Matriach cost 2 slots and does 2 things :

Healing and damage.

The damage dots newly standards have several secondary effect (major sorcery, regen or heal, Aoe or ressource back)

The damage of healing matriarch should be the same as other standards, aka entropy damage, the matriarch secondary effects is that it's free cost for the damage.

The tormentor also costing 2 slots but only dealing damage should do more damage than 2 entropy, more damage because it have no secondary effect and because you need to activate the skill (have a cost)

SeaUnicorn

Royalthought wrote: »

2. Nightblades utilities got nerfed too. Go look at refeshing path. Does path do more damage than matriarch?

What? Refreshing path is a strongest AOE HOT for magicka builds in 5.1.1 and it gives you speed buff. It only takes 1 slot unlike the flappy bird.
Definitely not the skill to complain about.