Twilight Matriarch balanced in a vacuum, now weaker than Summon Shade (PvE)

kalunte

matriarch heals like the base skill => both dot dmg nerfed.
the tormentor only deals dmg and therefor keeps its dmg.

be glad you keep so form of dmg unlike refreshing path. nothing else to say.

Vahrokh

kalunte wrote: »

matriarch heals like the base skill => both dot dmg nerfed.
the tormentor only deals dmg and therefor keeps its dmg.

be glad you keep so form of dmg unlike refreshing path. nothing else to say.

Repeat it with me, since it's so hard to grasp:

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

Tormentor was, is and shall be pointless. Slotting 2 random DPS abilities easily outDPS it.

kalunte

@Vahrokh well, since the post isnt about tormentor i dont give a *** about your answer.

matriarch does slight dps, heals on demand and soaks dmg. worth slotting it in both bars.

next.

MartiniDaniels

Transairion wrote: »

If OP started discussion, magsorc is weak in PVE with this changes, magsorc will be forced to use generic skills... but thread is named, "matriarch is worse then shade". This is simply wrong, because I don't know what might be worse then new nerfed shade (in PVE). New shade is simply dead morph, while matriarch still can be used on healer and dpsing morph is quite viable, there was 90k parse over there with tormentor..

Can you elaborate on why a cost increase kills all versions of Shade?

Summon Shade: Increased the cost for this ability and its morphs to 4050 from 2700.

Unmorphed Damage Pets (no passives taken into account)

Summon Shade: 4050 for 15s (PTS)

Summon Skeletal Mage: 4320 for 16s (PTS)

Summon Unstable Familiar: 3510 for indefinite; 2808 for active (PTS)

Summon Winged Twilight: 3510 for indefinite; 3510 for active

Summon Storm Antronach: 200 Ultimate for 21 seconds (Immobile Ultimate)

Feral Guardian: 0 for indefinite; 75 Ult for active (Ultimate)


Given Shade is single-barred and provides both utility and actual decent DPS now, why should it cost less than the double-barred Sorceror pets? 4050 every 15s is a long time for Magblade to regain that magicka, and shouldn't Stamblade only be using it sparingly? The Shade teleport morph is free to teleport once placed, no?



As has already been said, Twilight Tormentor has always been a dead morph/"noob trap" because quite simply it only does Shock Damage and nothing else... and it's very easy to slot 2 different DPS skills in those slots and outDPS it (three slots if you count having to spam Daedric Prey). Twilight Matriarch provides an emergency heal at all times, Tormentor's active ability doesn't even function from 49% HP and below.

An easy way to give the Tormentor something to make it an actual choice would be something like:

Summon Twilight Tormentor
Call on Azura to send a twilight tormentor to fight at your side. The twilight tormentor's zaps deal [2757 / 2879 / 2999 / 3118] Shock Damage and its kicks deal [2416 / 2520 / 2626 / 2730] Shock Damage. Once summoned, you can activate the twilight tormentor's special ability, causing it to deal [50 / 51 / 52 / 53]% more damage to enemies above 50% Health and apply Minor Lifesteal for 15 seconds. The twilight tormentor remains until killed or unsummoned.

Slow damage-based healing VS instant burst healing, an actual choice you can build around.

Right now we've got "instant burst healing at all times" VS "half a fight you get higher damage then have no active". Lowering Matriarch DPS does nothing to change that horrible active ability, and especially not nerfing Tormentor's base damage which is the only thing it actually does.

Because it was barely worth slotting even now (on magblade). It deals same dps as ST dots but have all the mess of running around and missing dps in process. Also you somehow forget that not only cost was increased x1.5 times, it is also nerfed in damage. This is absolute trash, entropy, soul trap and new clench are way better.

Summon Shade: Increased the cost for this ability and its morphs to 4050 from 2700.
Dark Shade (morph): Reduced the damage per hit of Corrosive Flurry by approximately 9%. The area attack, Corrosive Slash, now deals the same damage as the normal attack, instead of dealing 20% bonus damage.

Transairion

Because it was barely worth slotting even now (on magblade). It deals same dps as ST dots but have all the mess of running around and missing dps in process. Also you somehow forget that not only cost was increased x1.5 times, it is also nerfed in damage. This is absolute trash, entropy, soul trap and new clench are way better.

Keeping in mind Entropy/Soul Trap/Clench were all massively buffed in DoT damage they're not the best standard to use, please also consider the context in which Summon Shade and morphs are being brought down:

4.3.5 (Wrathstone)

• All pets will now inherit your bonuses and derived stats. This means your Critical Hit Chance, Critical Hit Multipliers, Champion Points, and other % damage or healing amplifications will be applied to any pet you summon. Item sets that summon pets will continue to not inherent your Critical Strike Chance.

5.0.5 (Elsweyr)

• This ability now scales with the caster's Max Magicka and Spell Damage, or Stamina and Weapon Damage.
• The shades will now attack every 2 seconds, rather than every 1.5 seconds.
• Renamed the attacks the shades deal with each morph to help improve clarity.
• Fixed an issue where these abilities did not increase in damage as they ranked up.
• Dark Shade (morph): This ability now deals 50% more damage as a part of its morph functionality. The AoE attack it casts can happen 5% more frequently than before, and deals 20% more damage than the default attack.

PTS:

• Summon Shade: Increased the cost for this ability and its morphs to 4050 from 2700.
• Dark Shade (morph): Reduced the damage per hit of Corrosive Flurry by approximately 9%. The area attack, Corrosive Slash, now deals the same damage as the normal attack, instead of dealing 20% bonus damage.

So in the end Shade's cost was increased by 1350, Dark Shade morph basic attack is 41% bonus damage instead of 50% and for that same morph the AOE went from 70% bonus damage to 50%. Summon Shade (base skill) and Shadow Image damage untouched. Doesn't look like a gutting to me considering the level of buffing it's had.

Not entirely sure what you want to be honest, a single-slotted uninteractable DoT skill that provides debuff utility AND the same DPS as other damage DoTs??



Here's the same comparison for Winged Twilight and morphs:

4.3.5 (Wrathstone)

• All pets will now inherit your bonuses and derived stats. This means your Critical Hit Chance, Critical Hit Multipliers, Champion Points, and other % damage or healing amplifications will be applied to any pet you summon. Item sets that summon pets will continue to not inherent your Critical Strike Chance.

PTS:

• The Zap and Kick attack from the Twilight and its morphs will now do the same damage, to help reduce volatility in performance.
• Reduced the damage of the Winged Twilight and Twilight Matriarch by approximately 69% per hit.
• Summon Twilight Tormentor (morph): Reduced the damage dealt by the Twilight’s Zap and Kick by approximately 35%. These attacks will now rank up in 1.1% damage per rank, rather than 5%.

Exact same buff Shade/s got in Wrathstone, but Twilight base and Matriarch morph get a 69% damage nerf while Twilight Tormentor (which was still a dead morph due to being out-DPSable at two slots) got a 35% nerf and lost 4.9% scaling per rank.

Not seeing any Sorc Pet weaknesses being shored up or removed there in compensation...

matriarch heals like the base skill => both dot dmg nerfed.
the tormentor only deals dmg and therefor keeps its dmg.

I think you missed where the healing options got 69% damage nerfs but the damage morph (which is already bad on Live with current damage) also got hit with a 35% damage nerf and a rank-up scaling nerf.

A healing morph at all times will always be better even with 1 damage per hit, if the only other option has an active that doesn't work anymore halfway into a boss. Imagine if Shadow Image's teleport didn't work if the target was above half health? Tormentor needs a full on rework to even become an option, no amount of nerfing Matriach will change that.

MartiniDaniels

Transairion wrote: »

Because it was barely worth slotting even now (on magblade). It deals same dps as ST dots but have all the mess of running around and missing dps in process. Also you somehow forget that not only cost was increased x1.5 times, it is also nerfed in damage. This is absolute trash, entropy, soul trap and new clench are way better.

Keeping in mind Entropy/Soul Trap/Clench were all massively buffed in DoT damage they're not the best standard to use, please also consider the context in which Summon Shade and morphs are being brought down:

4.3.5 (Wrathstone)

• All pets will now inherit your bonuses and derived stats. This means your Critical Hit Chance, Critical Hit Multipliers, Champion Points, and other % damage or healing amplifications will be applied to any pet you summon. Item sets that summon pets will continue to not inherent your Critical Strike Chance.

5.0.5 (Elsweyr)

• This ability now scales with the caster's Max Magicka and Spell Damage, or Stamina and Weapon Damage.
• The shades will now attack every 2 seconds, rather than every 1.5 seconds.
• Renamed the attacks the shades deal with each morph to help improve clarity.
• Fixed an issue where these abilities did not increase in damage as they ranked up.
• Dark Shade (morph): This ability now deals 50% more damage as a part of its morph functionality. The AoE attack it casts can happen 5% more frequently than before, and deals 20% more damage than the default attack.

PTS:

• Summon Shade: Increased the cost for this ability and its morphs to 4050 from 2700.
• Dark Shade (morph): Reduced the damage per hit of Corrosive Flurry by approximately 9%. The area attack, Corrosive Slash, now deals the same damage as the normal attack, instead of dealing 20% bonus damage.

So in the end Shade's cost was increased by 1350, Dark Shade morph basic attack is 41% bonus damage instead of 50% and for that same morph the AOE went from 70% bonus damage to 50%. Summon Shade (base skill) and Shadow Image damage untouched. Doesn't look like a gutting to me considering the level of buffing it's had.

Not entirely sure what you want to be honest, a single-slotted uninteractable DoT skill that provides debuff utility AND the same DPS as other damage DoTs??



Here's the same comparison for Winged Twilight and morphs:

4.3.5 (Wrathstone)

• All pets will now inherit your bonuses and derived stats. This means your Critical Hit Chance, Critical Hit Multipliers, Champion Points, and other % damage or healing amplifications will be applied to any pet you summon. Item sets that summon pets will continue to not inherent your Critical Strike Chance.

PTS:

• The Zap and Kick attack from the Twilight and its morphs will now do the same damage, to help reduce volatility in performance.
• Reduced the damage of the Winged Twilight and Twilight Matriarch by approximately 69% per hit.
• Summon Twilight Tormentor (morph): Reduced the damage dealt by the Twilight’s Zap and Kick by approximately 35%. These attacks will now rank up in 1.1% damage per rank, rather than 5%.

Exact same buff Shade/s got in Wrathstone, but Twilight base and Matriarch morph get a 69% damage nerf while Twilight Tormentor (which was still a dead morph due to being out-DPSable at two slots) got a 35% nerf and lost 4.9% scaling per rank.

Not seeing any Sorc Pet weaknesses being shored up or removed there in compensation...

matriarch heals like the base skill => both dot dmg nerfed.
the tormentor only deals dmg and therefor keeps its dmg.

I think you missed where the healing options got 69% damage nerfs but the damage morph (which is already bad on Live with current damage) also got hit with a 35% damage nerf and a rank-up scaling nerf.

A healing morph at all times will always be better even with 1 damage per hit, if the only other option has an active that doesn't work anymore halfway into a boss. Imagine if Shadow Image's teleport didn't work if the target was above half health? Tormentor needs a full on rework to even become an option, no amount of nerfing Matriach will change that.

Topic is named "PVE", so I'm speaking about Dark Shade morph. Shadow Image (ranged morph) dps is laughable, you may check it anytime, it is purely PVP ability which allows NBs to do those 1vX miracles via TP and maim. But damage is really small, it just tickles you, zero point to use it in PVE.

Just create NB on PTS and see. Even if I somehow continue to roll out my magblade next patch, my bars will be with 2 aoes and 4 ST dots like everybody's else bars. Is this bad situation when every class will run almost the same build? Yes, certainly. But this has nothing about shade vs matriarch (in PVE), both are nerfed and both will leave magdps bars. If you are speaking about PVP... well, magblade is far from OP, and stamblade magicka is limited so i bet this nerf will make their lives much harder. And magsorc is best class in PVP on live, with matriatch being OP tool. So nerf is well-justified imo.
And it takes two slots, so what's problem to slot 1 dot and 1 heal instead?

Jeremy

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!


Edit: Removed PvP-related pros and cons

While I understand people hated "portable cover", as a Pet User in PvP I never danced around in my pets to try and avoid single-target skills from other players. I'm sure people did do it because abuse what you can, but given the pets are killable I don't see how it's any more abusing than the people diving around rocks and trees training 12 players behind them.

Also keep in mind a PvP PetSorc with Familiar, Prey, Matriarch and likely Hardened Ward is 6/10 skills in the hole to achieve that and play a war of attrition to kill anyone

But the Shade doesn't heal.

And the hate for sorcerer pets is justified. It's incredibly annoying trying to target a pet sorcerer. The fact you can kill their pets doesn't really help either. Any player who tries to kill their pets while the sorcerer is beating on them is going to die. And die badly.

My Night Blade will happily trade you his shade for your matriarch.

Aedaryl

Jeremy wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!


Edit: Removed PvP-related pros and cons

While I understand people hated "portable cover", as a Pet User in PvP I never danced around in my pets to try and avoid single-target skills from other players. I'm sure people did do it because abuse what you can, but given the pets are killable I don't see how it's any more abusing than the people diving around rocks and trees training 12 players behind them.

Also keep in mind a PvP PetSorc with Familiar, Prey, Matriarch and likely Hardened Ward is 6/10 skills in the hole to achieve that and play a war of attrition to kill anyone

But the Shade doesn't heal.

And the hate for sorcerer pets is justified. It's incredibly annoying trying to target a pet sorcerer. The fact you can kill their pets doesn't really help either. Any player who tries to kill their pets while the sorcerer is beating on them is going to die. And die badly.

My Night Blade will happily trade you his shade for your matriarch.

Is u noob ever heard about matriarch costing 2 slots?

MartiniDaniels

Aedaryl wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!


Edit: Removed PvP-related pros and cons

While I understand people hated "portable cover", as a Pet User in PvP I never danced around in my pets to try and avoid single-target skills from other players. I'm sure people did do it because abuse what you can, but given the pets are killable I don't see how it's any more abusing than the people diving around rocks and trees training 12 players behind them.

Also keep in mind a PvP PetSorc with Familiar, Prey, Matriarch and likely Hardened Ward is 6/10 skills in the hole to achieve that and play a war of attrition to kill anyone

But the Shade doesn't heal.

And the hate for sorcerer pets is justified. It's incredibly annoying trying to target a pet sorcerer. The fact you can kill their pets doesn't really help either. Any player who tries to kill their pets while the sorcerer is beating on them is going to die. And die badly.

My Night Blade will happily trade you his shade for your matriarch.

Is u noob ever heard about matriarch costing 2 slots?

a) remove matriarch
b) slot new entropy on front bar instead
c) slot surge on back bar instead

Vahrokh

kalunte wrote: »

@Vahrokh well, since the post isnt about tormentor i dont give a *** about your answer.

matriarch does slight dps, heals on demand and soaks dmg. worth slotting it in both bars.

next.

- You included tormentor in your answer
- A DPS class using matriarch, that does "slight dps", is a class that will not be invited to trials. Until today, it is.

Vahrokh

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!


Edit: Removed PvP-related pros and cons

While I understand people hated "portable cover", as a Pet User in PvP I never danced around in my pets to try and avoid single-target skills from other players. I'm sure people did do it because abuse what you can, but given the pets are killable I don't see how it's any more abusing than the people diving around rocks and trees training 12 players behind them.

Also keep in mind a PvP PetSorc with Familiar, Prey, Matriarch and likely Hardened Ward is 6/10 skills in the hole to achieve that and play a war of attrition to kill anyone

But the Shade doesn't heal.

And the hate for sorcerer pets is justified. It's incredibly annoying trying to target a pet sorcerer. The fact you can kill their pets doesn't really help either. Any player who tries to kill their pets while the sorcerer is beating on them is going to die. And die badly.

My Night Blade will happily trade you his shade for your matriarch.

Is u noob ever heard about matriarch costing 2 slots?

a) remove matriarch
b) slot new entropy on front bar instead
c) slot surge on back bar instead

d) Die, because matriarch is worth much more than both of them
e) Be insta-kicked from trials, because only noobs use surge in trials. Way too huge DPS loss (5-7k+) vs using spell tripots + dual inner light / other competitive ability

MartiniDaniels

Vahrokh wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!


Edit: Removed PvP-related pros and cons

While I understand people hated "portable cover", as a Pet User in PvP I never danced around in my pets to try and avoid single-target skills from other players. I'm sure people did do it because abuse what you can, but given the pets are killable I don't see how it's any more abusing than the people diving around rocks and trees training 12 players behind them.

Also keep in mind a PvP PetSorc with Familiar, Prey, Matriarch and likely Hardened Ward is 6/10 skills in the hole to achieve that and play a war of attrition to kill anyone

But the Shade doesn't heal.

And the hate for sorcerer pets is justified. It's incredibly annoying trying to target a pet sorcerer. The fact you can kill their pets doesn't really help either. Any player who tries to kill their pets while the sorcerer is beating on them is going to die. And die badly.

My Night Blade will happily trade you his shade for your matriarch.

Is u noob ever heard about matriarch costing 2 slots?

a) remove matriarch
b) slot new entropy on front bar instead
c) slot surge on back bar instead

d) Die, because matriarch is worth much more than both of them
e) Be insta-kicked from trials, because only noobs use surge in trials. Way too huge DPS loss (5-7k+) vs using spell tripots + dual inner light / other competitive ability

So one skill which acts in semi-automatic mode and is always pre-summoned, should be more powerful then 2 skills which require twice as much GCDs and magicka to use? About kicking from trials, we are speaking of situation when you need self-heal. If you don't need self-heal then just slot another dot. And I said nothing about major sorcery from surge, what's it about pots?
Oh, inner light or bound armor, double pet, cool, you know that magblade in this patch have ZERO slottables to be able to do some damage. From 10 abilities, 2 are buffs, and 8 are active damaging skills and all that mess of rotation is doing less damage then magplar with 3 8-second dots and spammable and sorc with 2 pets and heavy attacks.
Elsweyr patch is just a big joke of balance.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!


Edit: Removed PvP-related pros and cons

While I understand people hated "portable cover", as a Pet User in PvP I never danced around in my pets to try and avoid single-target skills from other players. I'm sure people did do it because abuse what you can, but given the pets are killable I don't see how it's any more abusing than the people diving around rocks and trees training 12 players behind them.

Also keep in mind a PvP PetSorc with Familiar, Prey, Matriarch and likely Hardened Ward is 6/10 skills in the hole to achieve that and play a war of attrition to kill anyone

Ist the matriarch the heal morph
You want dammage take the tormantor

Vahrokh

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

Because it was barely worth slotting even now (on magblade). It deals same dps as ST dots but have all the mess of running around and missing dps in process. Also you somehow forget that not only cost was increased x1.5 times, it is also nerfed in damage. This is absolute trash, entropy, soul trap and new clench are way better.

Keeping in mind Entropy/Soul Trap/Clench were all massively buffed in DoT damage they're not the best standard to use, please also consider the context in which Summon Shade and morphs are being brought down:

4.3.5 (Wrathstone)

• All pets will now inherit your bonuses and derived stats. This means your Critical Hit Chance, Critical Hit Multipliers, Champion Points, and other % damage or healing amplifications will be applied to any pet you summon. Item sets that summon pets will continue to not inherent your Critical Strike Chance.

5.0.5 (Elsweyr)

• This ability now scales with the caster's Max Magicka and Spell Damage, or Stamina and Weapon Damage.
• The shades will now attack every 2 seconds, rather than every 1.5 seconds.
• Renamed the attacks the shades deal with each morph to help improve clarity.
• Fixed an issue where these abilities did not increase in damage as they ranked up.
• Dark Shade (morph): This ability now deals 50% more damage as a part of its morph functionality. The AoE attack it casts can happen 5% more frequently than before, and deals 20% more damage than the default attack.

PTS:

• Summon Shade: Increased the cost for this ability and its morphs to 4050 from 2700.
• Dark Shade (morph): Reduced the damage per hit of Corrosive Flurry by approximately 9%. The area attack, Corrosive Slash, now deals the same damage as the normal attack, instead of dealing 20% bonus damage.

So in the end Shade's cost was increased by 1350, Dark Shade morph basic attack is 41% bonus damage instead of 50% and for that same morph the AOE went from 70% bonus damage to 50%. Summon Shade (base skill) and Shadow Image damage untouched. Doesn't look like a gutting to me considering the level of buffing it's had.

Not entirely sure what you want to be honest, a single-slotted uninteractable DoT skill that provides debuff utility AND the same DPS as other damage DoTs??



Here's the same comparison for Winged Twilight and morphs:

4.3.5 (Wrathstone)

• All pets will now inherit your bonuses and derived stats. This means your Critical Hit Chance, Critical Hit Multipliers, Champion Points, and other % damage or healing amplifications will be applied to any pet you summon. Item sets that summon pets will continue to not inherent your Critical Strike Chance.

PTS:

• The Zap and Kick attack from the Twilight and its morphs will now do the same damage, to help reduce volatility in performance.
• Reduced the damage of the Winged Twilight and Twilight Matriarch by approximately 69% per hit.
• Summon Twilight Tormentor (morph): Reduced the damage dealt by the Twilight’s Zap and Kick by approximately 35%. These attacks will now rank up in 1.1% damage per rank, rather than 5%.

Exact same buff Shade/s got in Wrathstone, but Twilight base and Matriarch morph get a 69% damage nerf while Twilight Tormentor (which was still a dead morph due to being out-DPSable at two slots) got a 35% nerf and lost 4.9% scaling per rank.

Not seeing any Sorc Pet weaknesses being shored up or removed there in compensation...

matriarch heals like the base skill => both dot dmg nerfed.
the tormentor only deals dmg and therefor keeps its dmg.

I think you missed where the healing options got 69% damage nerfs but the damage morph (which is already bad on Live with current damage) also got hit with a 35% damage nerf and a rank-up scaling nerf.

A healing morph at all times will always be better even with 1 damage per hit, if the only other option has an active that doesn't work anymore halfway into a boss. Imagine if Shadow Image's teleport didn't work if the target was above half health? Tormentor needs a full on rework to even become an option, no amount of nerfing Matriach will change that.

Topic is named "PVE", so I'm speaking about Dark Shade morph. Shadow Image (ranged morph) dps is laughable, you may check it anytime, it is purely PVP ability which allows NBs to do those 1vX miracles via TP and maim. But damage is really small, it just tickles you, zero point to use it in PVE.

Just create NB on PTS and see. Even if I somehow continue to roll out my magblade next patch, my bars will be with 2 aoes and 4 ST dots like everybody's else bars. Is this bad situation when every class will run almost the same build? Yes, certainly. But this has nothing about shade vs matriarch (in PVE), both are nerfed and both will leave magdps bars. If you are speaking about PVP... well, magblade is far from OP, and stamblade magicka is limited so i bet this nerf will make their lives much harder. And magsorc is best class in PVP on live, with matriatch being OP tool. So nerf is well-justified imo.
And it takes two slots, so what's problem to slot 1 dot and 1 heal instead?

Dropping an ability is totally not the same as completely changing your gameplay. You flip a button, I lose two pets, have to drop lightning spec and go fire. I have to grind another vMA staff, regear completely and so on. Quite a bit more than dropping 1 ability and replace it with another!

Vahrokh

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!


Edit: Removed PvP-related pros and cons

While I understand people hated "portable cover", as a Pet User in PvP I never danced around in my pets to try and avoid single-target skills from other players. I'm sure people did do it because abuse what you can, but given the pets are killable I don't see how it's any more abusing than the people diving around rocks and trees training 12 players behind them.

Also keep in mind a PvP PetSorc with Familiar, Prey, Matriarch and likely Hardened Ward is 6/10 skills in the hole to achieve that and play a war of attrition to kill anyone

Ist the matriarch the heal morph
You want dammage take the tormantor

Sure, show me vCR portals done with tormentor, 2nd boss top floor vHOF trigger done with tormentor, hm vMOL meteors done with Tormentor.

Vahrokh

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!


Edit: Removed PvP-related pros and cons

While I understand people hated "portable cover", as a Pet User in PvP I never danced around in my pets to try and avoid single-target skills from other players. I'm sure people did do it because abuse what you can, but given the pets are killable I don't see how it's any more abusing than the people diving around rocks and trees training 12 players behind them.

Also keep in mind a PvP PetSorc with Familiar, Prey, Matriarch and likely Hardened Ward is 6/10 skills in the hole to achieve that and play a war of attrition to kill anyone

But the Shade doesn't heal.

And the hate for sorcerer pets is justified. It's incredibly annoying trying to target a pet sorcerer. The fact you can kill their pets doesn't really help either. Any player who tries to kill their pets while the sorcerer is beating on them is going to die. And die badly.

My Night Blade will happily trade you his shade for your matriarch.

Is u noob ever heard about matriarch costing 2 slots?

a) remove matriarch
b) slot new entropy on front bar instead
c) slot surge on back bar instead

d) Die, because matriarch is worth much more than both of them
e) Be insta-kicked from trials, because only noobs use surge in trials. Way too huge DPS loss (5-7k+) vs using spell tripots + dual inner light / other competitive ability

So one skill which acts in semi-automatic mode and is always pre-summoned, should be more powerful then 2 skills which require twice as much GCDs and magicka to use? About kicking from trials, we are speaking of situation when you need self-heal. If you don't need self-heal then just slot another dot. And I said nothing about major sorcery from surge, what's it about pots?
Oh, inner light or bound armor, double pet, cool, you know that magblade in this patch have ZERO slottables to be able to do some damage. From 10 abilities, 2 are buffs, and 8 are active damaging skills and all that mess of rotation is doing less damage then magplar with 3 8-second dots and spammable and sorc with 2 pets and heavy attacks.
Elsweyr patch is just a big joke of balance.

I think this is the first time in 5 years that I hear someone calling "OP" something done by a Magsorc in a trial. We are consistently the lower tier unless we are a Youtuber with a whole guild and trial setup handmade around him.

It's not like this "pre-summoned" thing makes us anywhere competitive at all. Dual pet magsorc setup does 7k+ less DPS than single target magsorc setup! We already pay for the healing "perk" with that drop!

Inner light? What does it do with survivability? Bound armor? Perhaps 1% of the trial builds use that?

Situation where self-heal is needed? Plenty. I do trial mechanics for my guild, how am I supposed to survive portals heavy oblivion damage (it bypasses shields)? Or do backyard in vMOL? Or go in position to catch range damage at vAS 2nd boss? Or survive at switch room in vHOF?

master_vanargand

You need Skooma.

MartiniDaniels

Vahrokh wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!


Edit: Removed PvP-related pros and cons

While I understand people hated "portable cover", as a Pet User in PvP I never danced around in my pets to try and avoid single-target skills from other players. I'm sure people did do it because abuse what you can, but given the pets are killable I don't see how it's any more abusing than the people diving around rocks and trees training 12 players behind them.

Also keep in mind a PvP PetSorc with Familiar, Prey, Matriarch and likely Hardened Ward is 6/10 skills in the hole to achieve that and play a war of attrition to kill anyone

But the Shade doesn't heal.

And the hate for sorcerer pets is justified. It's incredibly annoying trying to target a pet sorcerer. The fact you can kill their pets doesn't really help either. Any player who tries to kill their pets while the sorcerer is beating on them is going to die. And die badly.

My Night Blade will happily trade you his shade for your matriarch.

Is u noob ever heard about matriarch costing 2 slots?

a) remove matriarch
b) slot new entropy on front bar instead
c) slot surge on back bar instead

d) Die, because matriarch is worth much more than both of them
e) Be insta-kicked from trials, because only noobs use surge in trials. Way too huge DPS loss (5-7k+) vs using spell tripots + dual inner light / other competitive ability

So one skill which acts in semi-automatic mode and is always pre-summoned, should be more powerful then 2 skills which require twice as much GCDs and magicka to use? About kicking from trials, we are speaking of situation when you need self-heal. If you don't need self-heal then just slot another dot. And I said nothing about major sorcery from surge, what's it about pots?
Oh, inner light or bound armor, double pet, cool, you know that magblade in this patch have ZERO slottables to be able to do some damage. From 10 abilities, 2 are buffs, and 8 are active damaging skills and all that mess of rotation is doing less damage then magplar with 3 8-second dots and spammable and sorc with 2 pets and heavy attacks.
Elsweyr patch is just a big joke of balance.

I think this is the first time in 5 years that I hear someone calling "OP" something done by a Magsorc in a trial. We are consistently the lower tier unless we are a Youtuber with a whole guild and trial setup handmade around him.

It's not like this "pre-summoned" thing makes us anywhere competitive at all. Dual pet magsorc setup does 7k+ less DPS than single target magsorc setup! We already pay for the healing "perk" with that drop!

Inner light? What does it do with survivability? Bound armor? Perhaps 1% of the trial builds use that?

Situation where self-heal is needed? Plenty. I do trial mechanics for my guild, how am I supposed to survive portals heavy oblivion damage (it bypasses shields)? Or do backyard in vMOL? Or go in position to catch range damage at vAS 2nd boss? Or survive at switch room in vHOF?

I understand your point and I have nothing personal against sorcs. But other magclasses are in similar situation, so argument matriarch vs shade is wrong imo. My position is that ZOS should somehow buff all magicka classes in PVE all together, maybe make shields larger, but increase battle spirit effect for shields. For example x1.5 shields tooltip, but make shield do only 33% of size in PVP. Then PVP size will remain the same while PVE shields will be more capable.

kalunte

still, matriarch can be removed dps wise with a dmg skill, and when needed you can have a healing skill in your bars, just like everyone else.

sometimes situations require players to adapt.

if you want to be able to deal 100% of your parse dps, well, fight that dummy you love. As for actual trials, maybe a part of the difficulty is that you have to tweak a parse-build to deal with encounters mechanics...


sorry if tormentor is not pulling out 2slots dps, maybe it's purpose isnt to achieve 200%dmg of a single bar skill...

Saril_Durzam

kalunte wrote: »

still, matriarch can be removed dps wise with a dmg skill, and when needed you can have a healing skill in your bars, just like everyone else.

sometimes situations require players to adapt.

if you want to be able to deal 100% of your parse dps, well, fight that dummy you love. As for actual trials, maybe a part of the difficulty is that you have to tweak a parse-build to deal with encounters mechanics...


sorry if tormentor is not pulling out 2slots dps, maybe it's purpose isnt to achieve 200%dmg of a single bar skill...

Sure, but Stamina players can have Vigor with just one slot, and leave the other slot to bring more DPS. Except on a VERY coordinated trial groups, dpsers need selfheals in most fights. And that will change probably with the healing nerfs. DPS players will want an effective heal that doesn´t compromise much the damage they´re doing.

There is NO character that will waste 2 slots on a heal skill if those slots bring 1k DPS. Period. So Matriarchs wont be used for DD Sorcs. Healer Sorcs will keep using them because game has short of heals now that Springs and Orbs are 1 per cast.
But we all know healer sorcs are totally subpar. And Tormentor DPS is too low DPS considering it takes THREE slots (2 Tormentor, 1 Daedric curse which sucks and it would be never used if it wasnt by pets buff), lots of mag to use, and a DPS character would still have to slot a heal on a skill slot.

With this patch, noone will use Twilight. Maybe Volatile for AOE packs, that´s it. People who use it will be hindrancing its own DPS and shouldn´t join any trial group unless everyone agrees on playing subpar specs.

Vahrokh

Jeremy wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!


Edit: Removed PvP-related pros and cons

While I understand people hated "portable cover", as a Pet User in PvP I never danced around in my pets to try and avoid single-target skills from other players. I'm sure people did do it because abuse what you can, but given the pets are killable I don't see how it's any more abusing than the people diving around rocks and trees training 12 players behind them.

Also keep in mind a PvP PetSorc with Familiar, Prey, Matriarch and likely Hardened Ward is 6/10 skills in the hole to achieve that and play a war of attrition to kill anyone

But the Shade doesn't heal.

And the hate for sorcerer pets is justified. It's incredibly annoying trying to target a pet sorcerer. The fact you can kill their pets doesn't really help either. Any player who tries to kill their pets while the sorcerer is beating on them is going to die. And die badly.

My Night Blade will happily trade you his shade for your matriarch.

If you wanna trade matriarch... you could... you know... have rolled a sorc?

Vahrokh

kalunte wrote: »

still, matriarch can be removed dps wise with a dmg skill, and when needed you can have a healing skill in your bars, just like everyone else.

sometimes situations require players to adapt.

if you want to be able to deal 100% of your parse dps, well, fight that dummy you love. As for actual trials, maybe a part of the difficulty is that you have to tweak a parse-build to deal with encounters mechanics...


sorry if tormentor is not pulling out 2slots dps, maybe it's purpose isnt to achieve 200%dmg of a single bar skill...

Too bad the typical situation where a magsorc needs healing is the last boss. That is, the boss that is the hardest DPS check and hardest heal check. That is, the boss that useless specs are not allowed to see.

If you let me swap abilities during battle I am ok with you.

BTW, please point me out at the famous "healing skill" that lets me do vCR portals together with NBs like I do now. Because surge and the Dot->Heal aren't it.

Heymexa

5.1.3 Twilight no changes.
The developers do not read this forum thread, or they believe that they did not kill Twilight. It is very sad.