Twilight Matriarch balanced in a vacuum, now weaker than Summon Shade (PvE)

NordSwordnBoard

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Honest question not meant to be baiting or trolling but what do you think about changing pets to work the same way all other pets work except Wardens bear. 1 GCD to summon but only last 8/16 seconds depending on the morph you choose. No more permanent pets. That way you only have to single bar them. Do the same to wardens bear ultimate. Then they would be much easier to balance against temporary pets such as shade.

This could end the double bar portion of the debate, which causes problems comparing to other skills. Not to mention the new build possibilities with single bar summons.

Is there any reason why 8/16/24 second standards don't get applied to sorc? The skills would change in stats but function the same if you make them single bar timed summons.

Saril_Durzam

It would be much easier to make all pets 1 bar. Also, it would be easier to standarize. My only issue would be to take healing off them, as sometimes you will need 2 GCDs for getting the heal.

katorga

How many patches did ZOS buff pets trying desperately to get people to use them? It was like two years worth of patches buffing them. Way back when no one in their right mind used pets. Two patches from now, ZOS will be buffing them again.

Iskiab

Matriarch heals and target blocks. I’d still say matriarch is better.

Shantu

From a PVE perspective, the Matriarch might have been OP, but overall the MagSorc class was not even close to being OP. This just further emaciates an already week PVE class. No one is going to waste 2 bar slots for a burst heal. And to get even a modicum of damage out of pets you need to include Daedric Prey. So that's a full 50% of bar space for little return. Some of you PVP pet haters may celebrate, but to those of us who main a MagSorc in PVE and don't do PVP, these changes feel totally punitive for no good rational reason. I mean, come on...a 69% reduction in damage? That's not just a nerf, that's a sledgehammer crushing an entire build.

BalticBlues

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Magsorc is hands off best PVP class in the game for majority of patches in recent years, what are you talking about.

This confirms that you never played a PetSorc in PvP.

PetSorcs were trash in PvP for years.
ZOS managed to make them feasible not long ago.
But now with the Overload bar gone and still 4 slots for pets,
now with shields crippled and finally with pets butchered this patch,
With this PTS, PetSorcs are even worse than at release...

ZOS FINALLY MANAGED TO KILL PETSOCRS ENTIRELY FOR PVP. GREAT JOB. NOT.

katorga wrote: »

How many patches did ZOS buff pets trying desperately to get people to use them? It was like two years worth of patches buffing them. Way back when no one in their right mind used pets.

And ZOS now makes sure nobody ever will again...

Derra

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

It would be much easier to make all pets 1 bar. Also, it would be easier to standarize. My only issue would be to take healing off them, as sometimes you will need 2 GCDs for getting the heal.

I´d love standarized pets at this point.

All other pets in the game are better than matriarch and scamp on a utility + dmg per skillslot ratio

karekiz

Undefwun wrote: »

Plus zoo sorcs were a total nuisance in pvp, especially BGs... I had 5 pet sorcs in a BG once. It's the closest I've come to quitting a BG.

Blame premade system instead. Its the worst part about battleground. Just wait two/three months post patch and you will see "X COMBO IS RUINING BG's" since thats how arena style games work, you find a mechanic and exploit it. Banning premades would fix much of the issues surrounding class balance as no class could systemically have set + class combo's favoring their team over randoms.

That or just make BG's 6/8 V 6/8 and make them more casual style because lets be honest. ESO isn't a competitive game, and certainly no PvP one.

Kolzki

A couple of extra points to add:
Matriach
Pros:

• As a pet sorc you don't have the bar space to slot power surge as a self heal. So you're stuck with this. Go matriach!

Summon shade
Cons:

• It's too expensive to consider slotting for pve. So it might as well not exist. A bit like ground dots. But this one runs aroud a lot.

Strider__Roshin

Derra wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Line of Sight-able (PvP)
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Ranged morph buggy (PvP)
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Aah blissfully ignoring that the supposed healing morph costs two skill slots.
We can ignore one of those skillslots because of the heal - thats how much any other burst heal will cost you.

Then you compare the dmg component of matriarch (one of the two slots it costs) to what shade offers - and it´s entirely lackluster:
- Maim
- more dmg
- a buggy port

And unlike shade it's targetable; allowing you to easily LOS which will give you better mitigation than maim except it also serves as a burst heal with a damage component. Yeah it's fine where it is.

Moloch1514

Shantu wrote: »

From a PVE perspective, the Matriarch might have been OP, but overall the MagSorc class was not even close to being OP. This just further emaciates an already week PVE class. No one is going to waste 2 bar slots for a burst heal. And to get even a modicum of damage out of pets you need to include Daedric Prey. So that's a full 50% of bar space for little return. Some of you PVP pet haters may celebrate, but to those of us who main a MagSorc in PVE and don't do PVP, these changes feel totally punitive for no good rational reason. I mean, come on...a 69% reduction in damage? That's not just a nerf, that's a sledgehammer crushing an entire build.

This^^. PvP nerfs killng the one PvE build I still enjoy 5 years into this game. Every patch the fun is shrinking @ZOS_BrianWheeler.

Adernath

BalticBlues wrote: »

PetSorcs were trash in PvP for years. Powerless and NOT FUN AT ALL.
Then they gave pets power. THEY WERE FUN TO PLAY.
Then they removed the Overload bar, so that PetsSorcs struggle with Slot space. HARD TO PLAY.
Then they butcher shields. HARDER TO PLAY.
Then they butcher pets again. IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY.

POWERLESS PETS - NO BAR SPACE - SHIELDS LOW POWER AND EXPENSIVE
FINALLY PETSORCS ARE DEAD - WORSE THAN EVER BEFORE

No matter if MagWarden, MagNecro or now MagSorc:
Every magicka toon I make ends up becoming a Stamina toon to stay competitive.
"Play Stamina or get out of PvP." This Stamina preference in development SUCKS.
I am fed up playing Stamina. Every class feels almost the same. ESO Plus sub cancelled.

Well spoken!

Hotdog_23

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Honest question not meant to be baiting or trolling but what do you think about changing pets to work the same way all other pets work except Wardens bear. 1 GCD to summon but only last 8/16 seconds depending on the morph you choose. No more permanent pets. That way you only have to single bar them. Do the same to wardens bear ultimate. Then they would be much easier to balance against temporary pets such as shade.

This could end the double bar portion of the debate, which causes problems comparing to other skills. Not to mention the new build possibilities with single bar summons.

Is there any reason why 8/16/24 second standards don't get applied to sorc? The skills would change in stats but function the same if you make them single bar timed summons.

Honestly I have not used shade in a long time and recently been playing Necro's where the pets last 8/16 seconds idea comes from. Sure they could last 24 seconds but I would prefer all pets be standardized at 8/16 seconds. Looking at shade they could just adjust the damage vs. cost with the time to 16 seconds. I would think that the wardens netch could be considered a rule breaker at 24 seconds if they want since it is only a buff/resource and not damage or healing. But again I would like to see it at 16 seconds as well, just adjust the values.

I know this would be a big change for Mag Sorc's but the ability to single bar pets would give them a lot more options and probably actually increase their damage overall especially with the new magic hot's they are adding.

Runefang

Shantu wrote: »

From a PVE perspective, the Matriarch might have been OP, but overall the MagSorc class was not even close to being OP. This just further emaciates an already week PVE class. No one is going to waste 2 bar slots for a burst heal. And to get even a modicum of damage out of pets you need to include Daedric Prey. So that's a full 50% of bar space for little return. Some of you PVP pet haters may celebrate, but to those of us who main a MagSorc in PVE and don't do PVP, these changes feel totally punitive for no good rational reason. I mean, come on...a 69% reduction in damage? That's not just a nerf, that's a sledgehammer crushing an entire build.

I mean calling them already weak in PvE is wrong. They’re stronger than every mag toon except Magplars in PvE and at least they provide conduit synergies.

TheYKcid

You listed the Matriarch's LOS as one of the cons?

Nice attempt at trying to undersell it. [removed bashing comment]

Purple flying crutch chicken is getting its dues, and rightfully so. I'd suggest you invest your energy into learning an actual build.

Derra

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

No armor sets/CP applied/buffs across either character, only 64 Attributes point spent in Magicka but Summon Shade (unmorphed!!) has ~200 higher tooltip damage than Twilight Matriarch (morph).

Matriarch
Pros

• Deals direct Shock damage every X seconds
• Heals itself and 2 other targets for X health on special ability use

Cons

• Kill-able
• CC-able
• Has to be slotted on front and backbar
• Line of Sight-able (PvP)
• Only scales with Max Magicka still unlike all non-Sorcerer pets(?)

VS

Summon Shade

Pros

• Deals direct Magic damage every X seconds
• Applies Minor Maim on hit
• CC Immune
• Unkillable
• Only takes up one skill slot
• Scales with any highest stat, not only Max Magicka (including Weapon Damage/Stamina)
• AOE damage/Minor Maim morph VS Ranged reposition morph

Cons

• 2/3 of the options are melee summons
• Ranged morph buggy (PvP)
• Lack of damage

Yes, with 100% Daedric Prey uptime it'll do more DPS itself but at the cost of taking another valuable skill slot: something other classes fill with any better DPS skill than Daedric Prey. That's 3 skill slots to make Matriarch outDPS Summon Shade.


I know I know, all aboard the Pet-Sorc hate train, but you've got to admit it's ridiculous fire and forget Summon Shade does more base damage than a double-slotted Twilight Matriarch now. Especially in the context of the previous patch nerfing Daedric Prey to supposedly curb Matriarch damage!

So you are QQing about a healing morph doing less damage than a DPS morph? Lol

Yep what's next breath of life is weaker than summon shade too? 😉

Aah blissfully ignoring that the supposed healing morph costs two skill slots.
We can ignore one of those skillslots because of the heal - thats how much any other burst heal will cost you.

Then you compare the dmg component of matriarch (one of the two slots it costs) to what shade offers - and it´s entirely lackluster:
- Maim
- more dmg
- a buggy port

And unlike shade it's targetable; allowing you to easily LOS which will give you better mitigation than maim except it also serves as a burst heal with a damage component. Yeah it's fine where it is.

I´d trade untargetable matriarch over the los right now (i don´t know any long term sorc player who wouldn´t - nobody).
You have no idea what you´re talking about.

The pet dying and the burstheal being subsequently unavailable is literally the worst part about the ability.

Also please tell me how the ability is fine.
1 ability slot burst heal - granted
1 ability slot dmg component - literally less dmg than ranged shade morph with no added functionality.

How is that fine in your book - unless fine for you means strictly subpar to anything else in the entire game in this case.

Derra

[removed quote]

The los is not a con - strictly speaking.
The pet dying and losing the value of two barslots however is.

Has any of you ever tried to utilize the braindead flying monkey when not on the outnumbering side of a fight? Because it certainly does not seem like it.

Saril_Durzam

Runefang wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

From a PVE perspective, the Matriarch might have been OP, but overall the MagSorc class was not even close to being OP. This just further emaciates an already week PVE class. No one is going to waste 2 bar slots for a burst heal. And to get even a modicum of damage out of pets you need to include Daedric Prey. So that's a full 50% of bar space for little return. Some of you PVP pet haters may celebrate, but to those of us who main a MagSorc in PVE and don't do PVP, these changes feel totally punitive for no good rational reason. I mean, come on...a 69% reduction in damage? That's not just a nerf, that's a sledgehammer crushing an entire build.

I mean calling them already weak in PvE is wrong. They’re stronger than every mag toon except Magplars in PvE and at least they provide conduit synergies.

Read yourself, please. Magsorcs are behind any Stam build and magplars, and that cant be called weak? They at least provide conduit? Man, I could accept maybe these words on a magden,... Now seriously, whats the term for a weak class now? At least other clases can have good tank or healing roles. Sorc has become either a weak class on mag, or a glass canon in stamina, just good in parses with few survability. Again, i cant think about a weaker class right now.

Sylas_Orin

OP, you're completely disregarding that the matriarch is fire and forget, whereas the shade has to be continuously reapplied in a rotation.

The matriarch also provides a heal, which the shade does not. The shade provides a debuff, sure, but normally this debuff is already given by the tank.

Sylas_Orin

Not to mention, slotting a pet gives you 20% health and stamina recovery, as well as more than 1,000 health. Yeah, totally needs to be buffed.

Not gonna lie, mate, if it were possible I'd happily make your Sorc a Nightblade and my Nightblade a Sorc.

Thraben

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

OP, you're completely disregarding that the matriarch is fire and forget, whereas the shade has to be continuously reapplied in a rotation.

The matriarch also provides a heal, which the shade does not. The shade provides a debuff, sure, but normally this debuff is already given by the tank.

The shade provides a teleport, roughly on par with streak, and which is even worth half a (Psijic) Ultimate.

That being said, most of us Petsorcs are totally fine with that Pet nerf - if they make it work like the NB's shade.

Granted, resummoning the thing with a cast time can be a pain, but I would think it's balanced then because of the slightly more useful pet heal.

Murador178

Twillight and necro pets shouldnt be targetable - 90% of the hate for sorc pets is caused by players getting frustrated not being able to focus fire a target. Damage should have been reduced about 30%, so pet sorcs are still viable but not as opressive in a 1v1 situation like on the live servers.

@BlissfulDelusions U dont want to play a sorc or nightblade this patch anyways .

Rake

but u get heals
heals are strong
also ppl hit that birb by mistake so many times
its a flying meat shield

maboleth

I honestly don't understand their over-giving and over-taking of stuff.

Yes, I've been here long enough to remember their buffing of pets, they tweaked it so many times.

Then next patch comes and puff - they are 69% nerfed. Like, why, how?

They seem to be so picky about numbers, but it's just from patch to patch. One patch they will think for weeks whether to buff 1.15% certain skill, but next update they will nerf it 587%, like it's nothing.

And honestly, it's getting tiring, catching up all the time.

The thing is with pets, you cannot magically make their DD better. They are what they are. You can utilize them slightly more efficiently, but they have limitations. If they suck at DD, there's nothing you can do about it. So yes, they depend on ZOS numbers a lot. Otherwise they are just the annoyance and live shields for your PVP enemies and also the only pets you can have in Cyrodiil for amusement reasons.

evoniee

targeting interuption, meat sack tank, high constant damage, breath of life healing.
thanks zos nerf it down.

olsborg

I dont think zos knows what they want to do with pets (or the entire conjuration skilline). Pets has been changed back and forth and forth and back again. They certainly are strong/op on live atm, but on pts they are just about the same power as a novelty pet (if you count in the skillbar you sacrifice for it) imo.
ZOS does what they often do, they nerf something so hard that it effectively breaks it. Where is the middleground between strong and weak?

TheYKcid

[removed quote]
Not the first time I've heard petsorcs raise this counterargument, and it always tickles me. Basically what they're saying is:

"Matriarch is balanced because it takes a zerg to deal with it when I'm solo".

Yeeeeeeah nah. Not really helping your case.

TheYKcid

maboleth wrote: »

The thing is with pets, you cannot magically make their DD better. They are what they are. You can utilize them slightly more efficiently, but they have limitations. If they suck at DD, there's nothing you can do about it. So yes, they depend on ZOS numbers a lot. Otherwise they are just the annoyance and live shields for your PVP enemies and also the only pets you can have in Cyrodiil for amusement reasons.

Totally!
It's not like pet damage scales directly proportional to your max magicka.
It's not like pets inherit all your bonuses like:

• Crit chance
• Crit multiplier
• Penetration
• %-based damage modifiers like CP, Berserk buffs, unique class passives, etc. etc.

Nope, no way to increase pet damage at all. Bummer!

Derra

[removed quote]

Not really what i said though. Which is why you comfortably erect a strawman (well two really - a few more and we get a family).

The pet loses effectivity the more opponents are involved in a fight.
I intentionally avoided the term 1vX or Soloing vs a zerg in my original statement - bc that´s the case where the pet still somewhat works due to it´s buggy porting/resetting hp nature.
However trying to utilize it in a group pvp setting with classes that do not move out of range at the sorcs speed or during keep and resource fights is a pure nightmare and basically results in permanent recasting.

Thanks for taking the bait though and proving me right in that you ppl are really good at assuming things instead of having actual first hand experience.

Then also i didn´t say matriarch was balanced. In fact i´ve said the opposite about the live version of the skill on numerous occasions on the forums.
I´m saying the pts version is a useless waste of a skillslot (well two) instead of being properly balanced or reworked as it should have been.

Gilvoth

AHA! so now people are finally admit "Summon Shade" is far too weak?
took you guys almost 6 YEARS to SEE THIS?
well atleast its now being talked about!

Zenimax, please buff and fix summon shade!
thankyou.