Cortimi wrote: »

AMeanOne wrote: »

Lol looks like OP is ignoring the posts that don't fit his narrative

And you are ignoring the points I made entirely, without any form of rebuttal. GG

The people saying otherwise are not offering any answer to the point: this is introducing a direct way to be even more massively overpowered via cash. Saying "you can spend time getting it" is a useless response, as it does nothing to disprove my point.

Yyou are mad that someone can spend money to get something that already is available while pretending that it is not available.

Keylun wrote: »

I never thought of this. I think having dawnbreaker in under level 50 BGs would be quite a problem

OH MY GOD.

YOU

CAN

ALREADY

HAVE

DAWNBREAKER

IN

UNDER

LEVEL

50

BGS

Yes and now level 1 can have all the skill lines being offered.

It's only a big deal in lowbie PVP. Highly invested re-rollers with gold gear should be really excited about this. Now they can stomp new players even faster in lowbie pvp.

Honest question here, not trying to troll - do people actually care about <50 BGs? You level up so fast that it's inherently meaningless that you're weak or strong compared to others. Does it really matter if you're competitive during this time? I get that it's no fun being slaughtered (BGs aren't my thing, so that's basically what happens to me), but it still is a very temporary condition.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Honest question here, not trying to troll - do people actually care about <50 BGs? You level up so fast that it's inherently meaningless that you're weak or strong compared to others.

We'll see I guess. Maybe when it goes live, throw up a poll to see how many people made an alt and beefed them up right away with these skill lines.

As for "meaningless that you're weak or strong..." -- Maybe not. IF your objective is to feel strong over weak people and beat them easily over and over, then they'll keep making alts for under-50's BG until it gets tired.
The big change now is they might run out of cash first.

Sure, but I say let 'em use up their cash. Go ahead and fund the game so you can live out your dream to be a virtual locker room bully. My overall point is that I just don't see it being very impactful even if some do it. The skyshard prices would lead me to believe that the skill lines will be very expensive, so if you want to go full gank on a lvl 10 just to pounce on noobs and then repeat every time you hit 50, it's going to be a very expensive hobby. And in the mean time, all new players are still stuck in there with experienced players who have good gear stashed for whenever they do decide to bring up a new alt, regardless of whether their skills are all leveled. I mean, no matter what, there will be a ton of wreckage if you created an account yesterday and jump into BGs today.

Somebody else mentioned separating new account lvl <50's from those with alts and this might make it so legit new players can learn on a more level playing field (though I bet it would be a fairly lonely experience in there), but I don't see skill line purchases changing anything with regard to how it works currently - but I'm not defending having them in the store, I think it's just gross to have QoL features cost money. In reality, they should be obtainable in-game with less grind than required today, but that's a different argument for a different thread.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Wait a second...
So what you can do is...
- Create new character and not level up.
- "Buy" skill points.
- Then Buy Undated, mages guilds, fighters guild and Alliance War.
- Have a nice low level gear crafted by your other character.
- And go BGs or low level Cyro PvP and use low level up-scaling too....

Huh...

If it is not P2W then I dont know what it is...

Oh and btw. it might even get worse in next updates, this is in PTS notes:
Note: The Psijic Order, Soul Magic, Vampire and Werewolf skill lines will become available in a future update.

Yeah, but it's expensive irl and what's the point of doing it? You level up pretty quickly playing BGs - it's not like you can hang in there forever with your super buff new alt that you dropped a couple hundred bucks creating. And at crown store prices, it's hard to imagine people doing this repeatedly just for the thrill of dominating noob match arena for a short period of time.

A fully experienced player pwning new players wasn't cool before, isn't cool now, won't be cool then.

Imo sub 50 for experienced players should be done very rarely anyway and only during the levelling process (to not be a jerk)

But if they want to pwn then pwn they shall

code65536 wrote: »

The fact of the matter remains: There are a lot of "old" players who play sub-50 PvP.

They'll roll a new character, play in sub-50 PvP until they reach 50, then roll a new one and repeat the process.

Why do they do this? Because many like how sub-50 is balanced. The gear sets and skills that you face against are more limited.

I can understand their point of view because I personally have a lot more fun in sub-50 BGs than I do in vet BGs. I don't go through the trouble of rolling new characters specifically for this, but I do try to limit the amount of leveling that I do in PvE so that I get to enjoy this sub-50 experience longer.

But here's the key point: As you try to acquire and level those skill lines that grant you power, you are leveling the character. The tradeoff has always been that if you tried to acquire more power against your opponents in sub-50, you will end up spending less time in sub-50.

Buying skill lines means that people with the money to spend can now bypass that tradeoff.

The second consideration is battle-leveling. Battle-leveling is stronger in lower lowbies. That is to say, a level 10 battle-leveled to 50/C160 has better stats than a level 40 battle-leveled to 50/C160. This is to compensate for the fact that a level 10 has a more limited range of skills and abilities available to them. Again, being able to buy skill lines upsets this balancing consideration.

The simple thing to do is to allow the purchase of these things only on level 50 characters. You want a shortcut to leveling? Sure, that's fine. Just wait till you are level 50.

I'm not arguing against your suggestion because I think it's fine, but I believe people are underestimating how expensive it will be to buy a fully-leveled new character. It's really hard for me to imagine this being something done frequently even if you can purchase the skills right out of the gate. And to do it repeatedly just to dominate <50 BGs... I think you'd need a pretty fat wallet to keep your hobby up.

Its not pay to win, its pay to avoid playing the game.

Not that I agree with it, I would rather ZOS see these things to improve, and make more interesting or more fun to do, rather than offer the chance to pay to not do them.

code65536 wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

The fact of the matter remains: There are a lot of "old" players who play sub-50 PvP.

They'll roll a new character, play in sub-50 PvP until they reach 50, then roll a new one and repeat the process.

Why do they do this? Because many like how sub-50 is balanced. The gear sets and skills that you face against are more limited.

I can understand their point of view because I personally have a lot more fun in sub-50 BGs than I do in vet BGs. I don't go through the trouble of rolling new characters specifically for this, but I do try to limit the amount of leveling that I do in PvE so that I get to enjoy this sub-50 experience longer.

But here's the key point: As you try to acquire and level those skill lines that grant you power, you are leveling the character. The tradeoff has always been that if you tried to acquire more power against your opponents in sub-50, you will end up spending less time in sub-50.

Buying skill lines means that people with the money to spend can now bypass that tradeoff.

The second consideration is battle-leveling. Battle-leveling is stronger in lower lowbies. That is to say, a level 10 battle-leveled to 50/C160 has better stats than a level 40 battle-leveled to 50/C160. This is to compensate for the fact that a level 10 has a more limited range of skills and abilities available to them. Again, being able to buy skill lines upsets this balancing consideration.

The simple thing to do is to allow the purchase of these things only on level 50 characters. You want a shortcut to leveling? Sure, that's fine. Just wait till you are level 50.

I'm not arguing against your suggestion because I think it's fine, but I believe people are underestimating how expensive it will be to buy a fully-leveled new character. It's really hard for me to imagine this being something done frequently even if you can purchase the skills right out of the gate. And to do it repeatedly just to dominate <50 BGs... I think you'd need a pretty fat wallet to keep your hobby up.

I would never do such a thing. You evidently wouldn't do such a thing. And I think most people wouldn't. But all it takes is for one person to do it to negatively impact the experience of everyone else that they fight against.

So are there people who would do this? I'm sure there will be. If there are people who spend $1000 on Crates to chase after a Radiant Apex mount, I'm sure there will be people who will spend 1/10 of that to feel like a god in PvP.

Yeah, it's entirely possible. I still feel like it isn't going to be a problem though. Even if there are people who do it, they will likely be very rare by comparison to the general population. And I don't think it will be very effective for them anyway - if you need to do this, then you're not a good player (or you wouldn't need to do it). So that means you'll drop a bunch of money and still run into the new alt of Mr. Brigadier General (or whatever a high rank is) who actually is a good player - and then watch as your pricey investment adds up to exactly zilch while your head is being dunked in the school bathroom toilet repeatedly.

Also - if it is a problem, ZOS won't exactly be incentivized to resolve it. I have a hard time seeing them invest in a way to prevent a handful of people from handing them with a pile of cash on regular intervals.

I don't have skin in this personally - I do a few battlegrounds to familiarize myself with pvp on alts prior to heading off to Cyrodil, but I do them after I hit 50 so I can wear my actual gear and use my leveled class/weapon skills to get a feel for them and make adjustments, plus pick up vigor on stam toons. I don't think I've ever played <50 and probably won't - but I also won't be buying any skill lines. Point is, I'm not arguing because I like the idea of having the ability to do it, I'm just saying the concern is a theoretical one at the moment, and if it becomes true in the end, there probably won't be a fix coming for it. But even then, I see it as a minimal issue, impacting a small number of people, who will probably get over it pretty quickly.

Sandman929 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

The fact of the matter remains: There are a lot of "old" players who play sub-50 PvP.

They'll roll a new character, play in sub-50 PvP until they reach 50, then roll a new one and repeat the process.

Why do they do this? Because many like how sub-50 is balanced. The gear sets and skills that you face against are more limited.

I can understand their point of view because I personally have a lot more fun in sub-50 BGs than I do in vet BGs. I don't go through the trouble of rolling new characters specifically for this, but I do try to limit the amount of leveling that I do in PvE so that I get to enjoy this sub-50 experience longer.

But here's the key point: As you try to acquire and level those skill lines that grant you power, you are leveling the character. The tradeoff has always been that if you tried to acquire more power against your opponents in sub-50, you will end up spending less time in sub-50.

Buying skill lines means that people with the money to spend can now bypass that tradeoff.

The second consideration is battle-leveling. Battle-leveling is stronger in lower lowbies. That is to say, a level 10 battle-leveled to 50/C160 has better stats than a level 40 battle-leveled to 50/C160. This is to compensate for the fact that a level 10 has a more limited range of skills and abilities available to them. Again, being able to buy skill lines upsets this balancing consideration.

The simple thing to do is to allow the purchase of these things only on level 50 characters. You want a shortcut to leveling? Sure, that's fine. Just wait till you are level 50.

I'm not arguing against your suggestion because I think it's fine, but I believe people are underestimating how expensive it will be to buy a fully-leveled new character. It's really hard for me to imagine this being something done frequently even if you can purchase the skills right out of the gate. And to do it repeatedly just to dominate <50 BGs... I think you'd need a pretty fat wallet to keep your hobby up.

I would never do such a thing. You evidently wouldn't do such a thing. And I think most people wouldn't. But all it takes is for one person to do it to negatively impact the experience of everyone else that they fight against.

So are there people who would do this? I'm sure there will be. If there are people who spend $1000 on Crates to chase after a Radiant Apex mount, I'm sure there will be people who will spend 1/10 of that to feel like a god in PvP.

But people seem to be ignoring the fact that what's being bought with these changes can be done right now for free and still ruin the same content. People already gold out lowbie gear, grind these skill lines up to get the best skills from them, and do all that while staying under level 50.

Yes, twinking is already a thing. But this exacerbates the problem, don't you see? Just because the problem already exists to an extent doesn't mean it should be fine to make it worse.

And nobody is going to get Dawnbreaker at level 10 right now, since getting Dawnbreaker requires killing enemies, and that grants XP. A level 10 with Dawnbreaker is more disruptive than a level 30 with Dawnbreaker because of the stronger scaling of Battle Leveling for the level 10.

Again, all that's needed is a level 50 restriction. If people want this convenience for to get a character up to speed for vet content, this restriction would have no effect on them whatsoever.