CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Are you guys slow ?. When did I ever say they DONT mention those things, this is why reading comprehension is fundamental. I said you guys are purposely leaving out the other lore to fit your opinions and that they described them as quick, nimble and agile more.

And how lazy can you be ? Show us your own Google-fu and quote things that prove they are exceptionnal guards, adpet at rolling on the floor or especially good at detecting hidden stuff.

Go ahead. Prove us wrong instead of just taunting.

Uryel wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Are you guys slow ?. When did I ever say they DONT mention those things, this is why reading comprehension is fundamental. I said you guys are purposely leaving out the other lore to fit your opinions and that they described them as quick, nimble and agile more.

And how lazy can you be ? Show us your own Google-fu and quote things that prove they are exceptionnal guards, adpet at rolling on the floor or especially good at detecting hidden stuff.

Go ahead. Prove us wrong instead of just taunting.

So, uhm, you caught him trolling?
Just sayin'.

I don't get CatchMeTrolling's point. He claims that we are leaving those things out on purpose to fit our narrative, but the things we are leaving out don't contradict our narrative and there is nothing wrong with them in regards to the lore. Nobody wants to take away their stamina and the movement speed bonus is decent, especially since it synergizes with one of the bow passives, making Bosmer even more agile while using bows than other races. That stuff is good and that's why we don't have a problem with it. And because we don't have a problem with it, it's not relevant to the discussion. That's why we are leaving it out.

The stealth however is very important to their lore. I am almost a bit sad that Uryel left out the part about the Rite of Theft citing Bosmer to be legendary for their stealth.

"Thanks to centuries of this practice, the tribal Bosmer have become legendary for their stealth"

- Source "War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer"

Further more there is also the forest-coupling ability. Although never realized as an ingame mechanic (probably due to technical limitations), Bosmer are described to have an ability similar to chameleon-like skin. This is mentioned in a description of the Maomer as their chameleon-like skin is being compared to the Bosmer's forest-coupling ability.

BlueRaven wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Oh you mean you guys are only using the lore that resonates with you the most while blatantly leaving out the parts that can easily be Googled? Yet want to act like lore masters lol yeah okay.

Challenge accepted.

- "The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding" - Pocket guide to the empire, first edition.

So, Bosmeri epic number one is about hiding.

- "The Rite of Theft is a cherished Bosmeri custom [...]. The Bosmer steal from each other, and upon return of the stolen item, they demand a boon commensurate to the item's worth. In ancient times, the Bosmer Vanirion the Thief was renowned for demanding over two hundred payments after invoking the Rite. In more modern times, the Bosmer of Greenshade are particularly infamous for their thievery." - Heroes of the sanctuary ; Visions of the Green Pact Bosmers ; A merchant's guide to Valenwood.

So, one of the most important cultural rites of the Bosmers is stealing from each other.

- "The Bosmer are one of the few who worship the trickster Baan Dar, the trickster spirit of thieves and beggars they apparently borrowed from the Khajiit" - Varieties of faiths - The Wood Elves

So, one of their most important deities is a Khajiiti one, their god of tricks and thieving.

- "These tree-folk are vicious, adept at banditry [...] When you walk the woods near Arenthia, hold your purse or satchel close" - The wood elves of Valenwood

This one doesn't even call for any comment...

- "Bosmer consider the slaying of others to be simply unnecessary, and wagers are even made prior to raids regarding the theft of prized possessions without a drop of blood spilled. - The wood elves of valenwood

This one is especially interesting. Why would people who consider killing others unnecessary have developped an ability to pierce armors better ? Also, obviously, thieving is the subject of those raids.

- "They often rely on their forest-coupling skills to make use of guerrilla tactic" - Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition

So, how exactly can a "guerrilla tactic" work without hiding ?


And so on. I know Google-fu.

Are you guys slow ?. When did I ever say they DONT mention those things, this is why reading comprehension is fundamental. I said you guys are purposely leaving out the other lore to fit your opinions and that they described them as quick, nimble and agile more.

...
Also, as for the earlier point about Argonians having a stealth bonus as well. I say YES!!!! And dunmer as well! Both of those races have a rich history of assassin guilds, they should have the bonus too. I don't think anyone here is arguing that the stealth ability should be exclusive to the Wood Elves.

No-one has ever called for removing the bonus from Khajiit, and several of us have called for Argonians and Dunmer to get at least some bonus to hiding (if not as much as Bosmer and Khajiit).

BlueRaven wrote: »

Also, as for the earlier point about Argonians having a stealth bonus as well. I say YES!!!! And dunmer as well! Both of those races have a rich history of assassin guilds, they should have the bonus too. I don't think anyone here is arguing that the stealth ability should be exclusive to the Wood Elves.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

No-one has ever called for removing the bonus from Khajiit, and several of us have called for Argonians and Dunmer to get at least some bonus to hiding (if not as much as Bosmer and Khajiit).

Let me add to that, that it would give Dunmer more identity beyond being hybrid Orcs/Altmer with fire resistance. You'd have a clear reason to pick Dunmer over the other two even if you know you won't switch attribute. You'd be the stealth guy.

Same with Argonians. They need more love anyway since they got nerfed a bit too hard overall in Update 21. The potion passive is fine as it is now, but other aspects need some refinement. After that is sorted out, a stealth bonus gives them the cherry on top.

Oh and, if ZOS wants more of that stealth vs counter stealth, then they should add the detection to Orcs without taking away anything they currently have (Woodorcs are known to be good at detecting hidden things, because they have to defend their camps from sneaky Bosmer). Then at the end of the day, AD and EP would have 2 races with stealth boni each and DC would have the counter stealth. Everyone would be happy.

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

roll-palayers

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I don't get CatchMeTrolling's point. He claims that we are leaving those things out on purpose to fit our narrative, but the things we are leaving out don't contradict our narrative and there is nothing wrong with them in regards to the lore. Nobody wants to take away their stamina and the movement speed bonus is decent, especially since it synergizes with one of the bow passives, making Bosmer even more agile while using bows than other races. That stuff is good and that's why we don't have a problem with it. And because we don't have a problem with it, it's not relevant to the discussion. That's why we are leaving it out.

The stealth however is very important to their lore. I am almost a bit sad that Uryel left out the part about the Rite of Theft citing Bosmer to be legendary for their stealth.

"Thanks to centuries of this practice, the tribal Bosmer have become legendary for their stealth"

- Source "War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer"

Further more there is also the forest-coupling ability. Although never realized as an ingame mechanic (probably due to technical limitations), Bosmer are described to have an ability similar to chameleon-like skin. This is mentioned in a description of the Maomer as their chameleon-like skin is being compared to the Bosmer's forest-coupling ability.

Forest coupling is a term only used by Imperials to describe the hiding ability of Bosmer in two volumes of the Pocket Guide to the Empire, no Bosmer ever refers to it. The source (PGE, Wilds): "They [Maormer] are known to possess a strange, chameleon-like skin, an involuntary process that is similar to the forest-coupling skills of the Bosmer."

I mean, they wouldn't compare them if they weren't real. Hiding behind a tree isn't really the same as hiding in front of a tree, so if forest-coupling is just advanced hiding, the comparison doesn't really work. It would have been described as special stealth war paint if it was paint and it would just be called hiding if they were actually hiding behind trees. The difference between the Maormer skin and the forest-coupling that I'm seeing is that Maormer can't turn the colour changing skin off while Bosmer can turn off their forest-coupling at will. It's also an ability you wouldn't be surprised for a race of former shapeshifters to have.

The thing with TES lore is that you always have to consider the sources. Altmer sources have a particular axe to grind, Imperials have different axes, and so on. So I've always viewed the PGE evidence to be more about the Imperials not understanding that Bosmer are just that good at hiding, considering it is never mentioned anywhere else while Bosmer stealthiness is mentioned elsewhere. YMMV.

Seraphayel wrote: »

How are 95% of the playerbase dealing with these stealth issues you experience as a Bosmer now?

I can't talk for the whole player base, but I can tell you what I do. My main is a wood elf and I refuse to retire her. She wasn't designed primarily to be a thief, but once I found out how good a thief she could be, stealing became my main source of income in the game.

When stealth was taken away from Bosmer I was still in the process of understanding how gear sets worked. I deconned the stealthy sets I came across because, back then, I didn't find them necessary. Whenever I wanted to steal something I'd equip Kollopi essence and go to town.

Nowadays I have 12 spaces in my bag permanently occupied by gear, jewelry and weapon (I still need to find another staff). I have to stop and equip head, shoulders, chest, arms, legs, boots, belt (7 pieces of clothing), a necklace and 2 rings (3 pieces of jewelry) and a staff. Then I have to check if I didn't forget to equip a piece, otherwise I don't get the bonus associated with that set (yes, I wear 3 sets for stealth). On top of that, I equip Kollopi essence.

I then steal what I can and have to remember to get my fighting equipment back on before I leave town, otherwise I might get killed by mudcrabs.

So, there you have it. This is what my gameplay is after the racial update. Is it fun? No, and tbh soon after it was changed I would stop and wonder if it was worth it changing my sets to steal.

I'd love to have stealth back as a racial passive because then I could free 11 spaces in my backpack and I would then be able to go seamlessly from stealing to adventuring like I used to do before.

Once I discovered the joys of stealing and thought I understand the game enough, I created a Khajiit NB for the pickpocket bonus. This was done 2 months before we found out about the racial changes. There is no reason for me to change races on my main (yeah, I know...aside from the maxed out skill lines). BTW, my wood elf isn't a NB.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

I get it, RPG is role playing game. But the majority of players aren’t role players so to speak. They play on the side of performance. Most people would rather have balanced characters, fix game breaking issues, than a particular race being lore friendly. Now I’m by no way saying your wrong because your vote counts too, as a person playing the game.

What I want to know from y’all, is what would you sacrifice to just have sneak back? As far as I’m concerned I like the changes. I like the stamina. I like the roll dodge penetration. I like the stamina recovery. Are you willing to get rid of these just for sneak? To screw over a huge amount of players for something that, honestly, doesn’t add much in comparison BUT role play and lore?

I’d be fine with ADDING the sneak to say, the stamina recovery passive for wood elf. But getting rid of anything that we wood elves have now just for sneak is a bit ridiculous.

So what is it you’re really willing to give up, or make others give up, to get your sneak back? Because I can totally get on the band wagon if you’d argue to add sneak while keeping the current passives how they are. But if you want to remove something just for sneak, I’ll fight against that all day.

@deepseamk20b14_ESO How about the useless detection passive. Will that do?

While we are already changing hunter's eye, I would suggest that the penetration becomes a permanent buff (maybe at reduced potency for balance) rather than on dodgeroll. The way it is designed hurts your sustain (and thus your dps) too much if you try to get a higher uptime on it. Due to the buff being a conditional, you have to choose to either ignore the penetration and build as if it wasn't there (causing overpenetration and no dps increase aka benefit) or you build with less than average penetration to take advantage of your passive penetration (uptime less than 100% = dps loss ; the closer you get to 100% the more sustain you lose). If the penetration was permanent, then we'd at least have something solid to build around that is unique among the race choices. Currently you get the most benefit out of this passive if you play as you normally would and mechanics force you to dodgeroll. Hence why it's decent in PvP, but not as much in PvE.
The movementspeed bonus can stay on the roll.

As it is right now, Hunter's Eye is three skill points you should invest elsewhere.

I roll dodge a lot in PvP so roll dodging to get the penetration is fine with me. So I wouldn’t say it’s a waste of skill points. Plus there are a lot of skill points in the game so no need to not invest.

However, I still do agree with you. Change detection back to stealth radius increase, and making penetration a constant would be a good thing for the PvE side of things. It would even out the races too since wood elf is what, 3rd best for Stamina DPS at the moment.

I’d be happy with what you propose.