pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Again- you’re probably proving my point. You could stack all damage enchants, damage mundus, nirned weapons, beserk enchants on any class to have a ridiculously high lash/frag/spectral bow/shalk/blast bone/dark flare... but it’s not feasible.

Also, the fact that you can get a lash up to 19-21k is still constrained to melee range without any form of execute. If you took another class and stacked toward the highest frag/spectral bow/flare you can still hit a target from 28+ meters AND combine it with a ranged execute.

An ability being ranged comes with its own drawbacks like being a hell of a lot easier to counter.

Yes an ability being melee may be a little "harder" to use but when u are in a position to use it there is a much higher chance that ur opponent will eat it in the face than a slow projectile from 30 meters away which will give ur opponent more than enough time to get up, make a coffee, go in the toilet, come back and still have time to dodge, block, reflect absorb it etc.

Comparing abilities based on their range alone in PVP is kinda biased and doesn't really say much about which one is better.

Didn’t ZOS just speed up the projectile? And you know what else you can do at 30+ meters? Burn down a DK who can’t gap close to you. We have one ranged class ability that is lackluster compared to the damage of frags/bow.

And you know what else counters frags and merciless. Your wings genius. Seriously if you are getting burned down by a NB or a sorc with that much mitigation and without doing anything to them its most likely because you suck and not because frags and merciless are broken.

And yeah buddy, frags and merciless are so dangerous from 30 meters away to the point where NBs go in melee range to cast it and sorcs try to combo it with 4 different abilities and a CC to make it land.

But its ok i get it now. This isnt about frags vs merciless vs whip. This is more about "ill never be happy with the buffs i get until my class one shots everyone and doesnt die to anyone".

Didn’t ever say I was unhappy about the change. I’m glad ZOS compensated mDKs for the nerfs in snares and I’m glad they’re finally bringing other classes up to the capabilities of Sorcs and NBs.

Good, now maybe you can understand why people are "worried" about 20k whips and give them the benefit of the doubt instead of lashing out and be like "i still dont have an execute" to diminish the importance of the buffs you get.

2k dmg when proc??? nice!

i dont think ive ever even noticed that set. bonus 2-4 are all very good.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Again- you’re probably proving my point. You could stack all damage enchants, damage mundus, nirned weapons, beserk enchants on any class to have a ridiculously high lash/frag/spectral bow/shalk/blast bone/dark flare... but it’s not feasible.

Also, the fact that you can get a lash up to 19-21k is still constrained to melee range without any form of execute. If you took another class and stacked toward the highest frag/spectral bow/flare you can still hit a target from 28+ meters AND combine it with a ranged execute.

An ability being ranged comes with its own drawbacks like being a hell of a lot easier to counter.

Yes an ability being melee may be a little "harder" to use but when u are in a position to use it there is a much higher chance that ur opponent will eat it in the face than a slow projectile from 30 meters away which will give ur opponent more than enough time to get up, make a coffee, go in the toilet, come back and still have time to dodge, block, reflect absorb it etc.

Comparing abilities based on their range alone in PVP is kinda biased and doesn't really say much about which one is better.

Didn’t ZOS just speed up the projectile? And you know what else you can do at 30+ meters? Burn down a DK who can’t gap close to you. We have one ranged class ability that is lackluster compared to the damage of frags/bow.

False. First they introduced a minimul travel time for "in your face" casts. Then they reduced that minimum travel time. So no speed up at long ranges.
Use your *** gap closer and/or RAT. Or try to not stand out in the open with 28m of no cover.

Gap closers don’t reach 30+ meters (like we were discussing).

And you can use your own stupid logic (bolded above) for melee range of a DK. TrY nOt To StAnD cLoSe To A dK. You can use speedbuffs or RAT to get away, m’kay?

Positioning is 101 in PvP and not my "own stupid logic". The fault is entirely yours if you intentionally stand out with 30m+ of no LoS in every direction. It can happen to get caught there, but then you've got that Wings of yours to shrug of at least half the damage they throw at you. You might need to move a bit to get into gap closer range, right. But your options to do so are better than ever.
Well but if you think it's so much easier to run away from and kill someone with snare immunity, major expedition, wings and a gap closer than it's for him to close in, I don't really know what to tell you. Except, of course, they know how to LoS

Davadin wrote: »

2k dmg when proc??? nice!

i dont think ive ever even noticed that set. bonus 2-4 are all very good.

How did you missed it? People ran it with Red Mountain and Skoria on e.g Stam Sorcs and DKs (e.g. with Flurry) for BG cheese. But on it's own it's not very impressive.

Davadin wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Again- you’re probably proving my point. You could stack all damage enchants, damage mundus, nirned weapons, beserk enchants on any class to have a ridiculously high lash/frag/spectral bow/shalk/blast bone/dark flare... but it’s not feasible.

Also, the fact that you can get a lash up to 19-21k is still constrained to melee range without any form of execute. If you took another class and stacked toward the highest frag/spectral bow/flare you can still hit a target from 28+ meters AND combine it with a ranged execute.

An ability being ranged comes with its own drawbacks like being a hell of a lot easier to counter.

Yes an ability being melee may be a little "harder" to use but when u are in a position to use it there is a much higher chance that ur opponent will eat it in the face than a slow projectile from 30 meters away which will give ur opponent more than enough time to get up, make a coffee, go in the toilet, come back and still have time to dodge, block, reflect absorb it etc.

Comparing abilities based on their range alone in PVP is kinda biased and doesn't really say much about which one is better.

Didn’t ZOS just speed up the projectile? And you know what else you can do at 30+ meters? Burn down a DK who can’t gap close to you. We have one ranged class ability that is lackluster compared to the damage of frags/bow.

And you know what else counters frags and merciless. Your wings genius. Seriously if you are getting burned down by a NB or a sorc with that much mitigation and without doing anything to them its most likely because you suck and not because frags and merciless are broken.

And yeah buddy, frags and merciless are so dangerous from 30 meters away to the point where NBs go in melee range to cast it and sorcs try to combo it with 4 different abilities and a CC to make it land.

But its ok i get it now. This isnt about frags vs merciless vs whip. This is more about "ill never be happy with the buffs i get until my class one shots everyone and doesnt die to anyone".

Didn’t ever say I was unhappy about the change. I’m glad ZOS compensated mDKs for the nerfs in snares and I’m glad they’re finally bringing other classes up to the capabilities of Sorcs and NBs.

Good, now maybe you can understand why people are "worried" about 20k whips and give them the benefit of the doubt instead of lashing out and be like "i still dont have an execute" to diminish the importance of the buffs you get.

Ha! This is perfect. The moment when NBs/Sorcs/DKs can come to an accord. I DON'T want NBs or Sorcs to be nerfed. I just want DKs to have some burst like theirs. My wife mains a MagSorc- so she's usually standing over my shoulder to make sure I don't hurt her class. I run with all the different builds in my guild- so I don't my guildies to lose out, either.

Now, I just want MagDens to get buffed up to the StamDen level and maybe show some love for StamPlars. I still hate bleeds with a passion, though, because there's no magic-based equivalent of it.

@JumpmanLane the guy who shared that photo is claiming that is before seething fury. He claims he achieved a 31k whip.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@SkysOutThizeOut

Turns out- I did some testing with @TheYKcid and the whip isn't as OP as some people like to let on. (That's right- I gave all the raw data to a Sorc… because I'm an idiot.)

Honestly, it's an interesting proc and I feel like it gives us a good edge. It does not have tooltips of 38k like some people are afraid of. It's along the lines of a Crystal Frag proc or a Spectral Bow- it's just limited to melee. Here's some of the raw data:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/474263/mechanics-question-is-the-new-molten-whip-bonus-additive-or-multiplicative#latest

I dont think many people will use the offensive whip in PvP - If u do u will need to build around it. The big strength of melee mag DK always was the good healing while being offensive with embers and whip. On my light armor mDK i went back to normal whip after a few fights.

Makes me think they should've nerfed Surprise Attack more. The fact that it was even doing half the damage of whip is simply unacceptable.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Again- you’re probably proving my point. You could stack all damage enchants, damage mundus, nirned weapons, beserk enchants on any class to have a ridiculously high lash/frag/spectral bow/shalk/blast bone/dark flare... but it’s not feasible.

Also, the fact that you can get a lash up to 19-21k is still constrained to melee range without any form of execute. If you took another class and stacked toward the highest frag/spectral bow/flare you can still hit a target from 28+ meters AND combine it with a ranged execute.

An ability being ranged comes with its own drawbacks like being a hell of a lot easier to counter.

Yes an ability being melee may be a little "harder" to use but when u are in a position to use it there is a much higher chance that ur opponent will eat it in the face than a slow projectile from 30 meters away which will give ur opponent more than enough time to get up, make a coffee, go in the toilet, come back and still have time to dodge, block, reflect absorb it etc.

Comparing abilities based on their range alone in PVP is kinda biased and doesn't really say much about which one is better.

Didn’t ZOS just speed up the projectile? And you know what else you can do at 30+ meters? Burn down a DK who can’t gap close to you. We have one ranged class ability that is lackluster compared to the damage of frags/bow.

And you know what else counters frags and merciless. Your wings genius. Seriously if you are getting burned down by a NB or a sorc with that much mitigation and without doing anything to them its most likely because you suck and not because frags and merciless are broken.

And yeah buddy, frags and merciless are so dangerous from 30 meters away to the point where NBs go in melee range to cast it and sorcs try to combo it with 4 different abilities and a CC to make it land.

But its ok i get it now. This isnt about frags vs merciless vs whip. This is more about "ill never be happy with the buffs i get until my class one shots everyone and doesnt die to anyone".

Didn’t ever say I was unhappy about the change. I’m glad ZOS compensated mDKs for the nerfs in snares and I’m glad they’re finally bringing other classes up to the capabilities of Sorcs and NBs.

Funny you should say that because magblade and Stamsorc are the two worse classes in the game. Really stamblade will be pretty mediocre as well now after all the nerfs. mag dk is looking like it might be the second best class now behind magsorc. Mag dk was already a upper tier class before the buffs.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Again- you’re probably proving my point. You could stack all damage enchants, damage mundus, nirned weapons, beserk enchants on any class to have a ridiculously high lash/frag/spectral bow/shalk/blast bone/dark flare... but it’s not feasible.

Also, the fact that you can get a lash up to 19-21k is still constrained to melee range without any form of execute. If you took another class and stacked toward the highest frag/spectral bow/flare you can still hit a target from 28+ meters AND combine it with a ranged execute.

An ability being ranged comes with its own drawbacks like being a hell of a lot easier to counter.

Yes an ability being melee may be a little "harder" to use but when u are in a position to use it there is a much higher chance that ur opponent will eat it in the face than a slow projectile from 30 meters away which will give ur opponent more than enough time to get up, make a coffee, go in the toilet, come back and still have time to dodge, block, reflect absorb it etc.

Comparing abilities based on their range alone in PVP is kinda biased and doesn't really say much about which one is better.

Didn’t ZOS just speed up the projectile? And you know what else you can do at 30+ meters? Burn down a DK who can’t gap close to you. We have one ranged class ability that is lackluster compared to the damage of frags/bow.

And you know what else counters frags and merciless. Your wings genius. Seriously if you are getting burned down by a NB or a sorc with that much mitigation and without doing anything to them its most likely because you suck and not because frags and merciless are broken.

And yeah buddy, frags and merciless are so dangerous from 30 meters away to the point where NBs go in melee range to cast it and sorcs try to combo it with 4 different abilities and a CC to make it land.

But its ok i get it now. This isnt about frags vs merciless vs whip. This is more about "ill never be happy with the buffs i get until my class one shots everyone and doesnt die to anyone".

Didn’t ever say I was unhappy about the change. I’m glad ZOS compensated mDKs for the nerfs in snares and I’m glad they’re finally bringing other classes up to the capabilities of Sorcs and NBs.

Funny you should say that because magblade and Stamsorc are the two worse classes in the game. Really stamblade will be pretty mediocre as well now after all the nerfs. mag dk is looking like it might be the second best class now behind magsorc. Mag dk was already a upper tier class before the buffs.

The worst class in game is MagDen. And it will be accompanied by MagNecro. StamSorc (and StamPlar) utilize bleeds for their builds to bring them to a whole new level. MagBlades can be very, very strong if played correctly and damn near impossible to catch. StamDKs and MagPlars (and some MagBlade tanks) can be almost impossible to kill without defiles or bleeds. We'll see how the changes effect StamBlades and MagDKs. But MagSorcs and StamDens are, in my mind, top tier classes.

ZoS still nerfed us though

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Again- you’re probably proving my point. You could stack all damage enchants, damage mundus, nirned weapons, beserk enchants on any class to have a ridiculously high lash/frag/spectral bow/shalk/blast bone/dark flare... but it’s not feasible.

Also, the fact that you can get a lash up to 19-21k is still constrained to melee range without any form of execute. If you took another class and stacked toward the highest frag/spectral bow/flare you can still hit a target from 28+ meters AND combine it with a ranged execute.

An ability being ranged comes with its own drawbacks like being a hell of a lot easier to counter.

Yes an ability being melee may be a little "harder" to use but when u are in a position to use it there is a much higher chance that ur opponent will eat it in the face than a slow projectile from 30 meters away which will give ur opponent more than enough time to get up, make a coffee, go in the toilet, come back and still have time to dodge, block, reflect absorb it etc.

Comparing abilities based on their range alone in PVP is kinda biased and doesn't really say much about which one is better.

Didn’t ZOS just speed up the projectile? And you know what else you can do at 30+ meters? Burn down a DK who can’t gap close to you. We have one ranged class ability that is lackluster compared to the damage of frags/bow.

And you know what else counters frags and merciless. Your wings genius. Seriously if you are getting burned down by a NB or a sorc with that much mitigation and without doing anything to them its most likely because you suck and not because frags and merciless are broken.

And yeah buddy, frags and merciless are so dangerous from 30 meters away to the point where NBs go in melee range to cast it and sorcs try to combo it with 4 different abilities and a CC to make it land.

But its ok i get it now. This isnt about frags vs merciless vs whip. This is more about "ill never be happy with the buffs i get until my class one shots everyone and doesnt die to anyone".

Didn’t ever say I was unhappy about the change. I’m glad ZOS compensated mDKs for the nerfs in snares and I’m glad they’re finally bringing other classes up to the capabilities of Sorcs and NBs.

Funny you should say that because magblade and Stamsorc are the two worse classes in the game. Really stamblade will be pretty mediocre as well now after all the nerfs. mag dk is looking like it might be the second best class now behind magsorc. Mag dk was already a upper tier class before the buffs.

The worst class in game is MagDen. And it will be accompanied by MagNecro. StamSorc (and StamPlar) utilize bleeds for their builds to bring them to a whole new level. MagBlades can be very, very strong if played correctly and damn near impossible to catch. StamDKs and MagPlars (and some MagBlade tanks) can be almost impossible to kill without defiles or bleeds. We'll see how the changes effect StamBlades and MagDKs. But MagSorcs and StamDens are, in my mind, top tier classes.

ZoS still nerfed us though

I feel ya, bud. I'm still advocating for some better skills. They could bring back the old AOE Frost heal/damage of Artic Blast. I liked that skill. Maybe an increase to Crystalized Slab in order to make it more desirable than Shimmering Shield.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Okay, here's some concrete numbers comparing a fully-stacked whip to some of the burst skills from other classes mentioned in this thread.

General build parameters:

Attacker

• 32k max stat
• 3.5k wep/spell dmg
• +40% damage modifier (21% direct CP, 12% elemental/physical CP, 7% weapon passive [avg. of 8 on staves & 6 on 2h swords])

Target

• 14520 resists after penetration/debuffs (22% reduction)
• %-damage mitigators of 0.79 * 0.88 (21% direct CP, 12% elemental/physical CP)

Specific build parameters (to account for class-specific damage modifiers):

• NB gets +8% vulnerability on target (Teleport Strike)
• Sorc gets +5% additive (median value of Amplitude)
• DK gets +10% vulnerability (Engulfing), 375 SD (Whip stacks)

[NB] Relentless Focus (stam spectral bow) damage = 5590
Calculation:

13208 base value * 1.4 * 0.78 * [(0.79 * 0.88) + 0.08] * 0.5 = 5590

[Sorc] Crystal Frags (proc) damage = 5019
Calculation:

10640 base value * 1.45 * 1.2 * 0.78 * 0.79 * 0.88 * 0.5 = 5019

[DK] Molten Whip (3-stack) damage = 5464
Calculation:

7372 base value * 2.39 * 0.78 * [(0.79 * 0.88) + 0.10] * 0.5 = 5464

Sources:

• Base values derived using the scaling coefficients at: https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkills.php
• CFrags proc bonus functions as a commutative 1.2x multiplier (self-tested)
• Whip 99% bonus is additive, as per findings on https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/474263/mechanics-question-is-the-new-molten-whip-bonus-additive-or-multiplicative/p1
• Vulnerabilities calculated additively, as per findings on https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462033/magdks-nightblades-received-a-damage-boost-in-wrathstone-vulnerability-calculation-changes/p1

As you can see—when used by & against typical builds—the values actually fall within a very tight range. Frags is the lowest by a modest margin (reasonable, being the easiest and most frequent to proc), while Relentless & Whip are neck-and-neck with each other, and have a comparable difficulty of setup.

I'd say that's a fair skew of numbers. Certainly not as overblown as some of the claims in this thread.

As promised, @Savos_Saren

@TheYKcid

While I initially wanted to argue that Sorcs and NBs get an extra benefit from range AND an additive execute that MagDKs don't get- I consider the extra damage to other skills as compensatory.

However, I think you're also neglecting to mention that for every Sorc ability slotted- you gain 2% damage (Expert Mage passive). So, the initial number that you provided from the calculations is skewed. From my tests- Sorcerer's Crystals Frags actually exceed NB's Spectral Bow (though they might gain more crit damage depending on their skills slotted) and a DK's Whip... depending on how many Sorc skills are slotted on a single bar. I think it's safe to say that a Sorc has at least 1-2 if not 3 Sorcerer skills slotted on a single bar. Wouldn't that be a 4-6% increase?

You didn't think I'd forget that in the calculations, did you?

Edit: I'm not trying to diminish the results- I'm just trying to be a little more clear on the realistic "live" version of the three specs. Honestly, without adding the extra damage- it does show how closely specced ZOS tried to make these builds (and it's admirable). Thanks for the number crunching, @TheYKcid .

Expert Mage is a WD/SD multiplier not a %-based damage modifier. It adds about 40-50 SD per slot, for an average of 180 SD on your typical Sorc build.

Plug that into your base value and you only get a net increase of 2.74% damage on frags, still nowhere near to tye others.

Additionally, Sorcs have to invest into max mag and regen (both of which detract from maximal tooltips) more heavily than the other 2 classes, so this "advantage" is essentially already ameliorated, before the fact.

That's why I ran the same base stats on all builds, these things tend to average themselves out holistically.

Not a significant difference one way or another.

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

...and here we go. A bunch of people rushing in to make comments about a single screenshot of a proc. I guess I need to go and make screenshots of every high Crystal Frag/Spectral Bow/Shalk/Blast Bones/Dark Flare proc and scream that it's unfair.

Edit: I forgot to add Dark Flare in that. Actually, I would like to test each build's niche proc and see who has the highest. I bet I could use flat rate sets (Innate + Slimecraw + Sun/War Maiden/Swamp Raider/Automaton) to see which abilities might be OP. Then we could debate who should be nerfed... especially if you can use some of those skills from range and combine them with an execute.

Generally I am sympathetic to the plight of DKs because the class sucked for at least two years, but you're getting *really* desperate trying to compare Dark Flare's "we nerfed the damage by 37% in exchange for a 0.1 second faster cast time" (which doesn;t even work, the cast time is still the same, but the damage still reduced) to the new Molten Whip.

Mitaka211 wrote: »

Magsorcs can obliterate other people from a long distance with 0 to no skill , tbh this whip doesn't sound as bad.The games balance is already in the gutter so why not run with it lol.

Oh thats why all noob streamers are playing DKs ? NB & Magic sorc requires lot of skill to play 1VX. DKs , wardens and templars requires garbage to 0 skills to play. If anyoone does 1Vx in magic sorc now against competent players , I would defintely grade him one of the best PVP players not only in ESO. One mistake instant death. I never considered anyone playing DK a pro player in PVP. Not even serious. Just noobs looking for cheese.

DKs is bunch of cheese lovers with game breaking CCs and surivablity. Why noob streamers and so called class representatives always never play magic sorc in PVP by the way and complain only against magic sorc ? Already AD is losing campaigns by huge margin. Noobs Streamers calling themselves pros are destroying the game balance by their fake opinions.

I request good PVP players to quit this game. You will earn far better in other games, as already many people are.

There's no really comparable PvP experience on Xbox to ESO

Black desert is close but whole different combat method
Neverwinter is close as well
These games have cool down systems rather than a pure resource system - meaning PvP is extremely similar to PvE (i.e. rotation memorization rather than reactive combat)

I spent a few months checking out Xbox games before coming back to ESO