Mechanics question: is the new Molten Whip bonus additive or multiplicative?

TheYKcid

EDIT: testing has shown it is additive. See post #21 below for test results & calculations.

Referring to the stackable +33% damage bonus upon each cast of an Ardent Flame ability.

Any insight is appreciated.

Davadin

good question. would like to know too.

so if ur wep damage is 100, will it be
1. 133
2. 166
3. 199

or
1. 133
2. 177
3. 235

Minno

Someone knows and the fact we haven't heard otherwise means somethingiis bugged to their advantage and they don't want ZoS to know lol.

Davadin

well i can try it later tonight. havent logged into 5.0.4 yet. it should change the tooltips too right?

TheYKcid

Davadin wrote: »

good question. would like to know too.

so if ur wep damage is 100, will it be
1. 133
2. 166
3. 199

or
1. 133
2. 177
3. 235

I don't think that's how it works at all. It's not a wep/spell damage multiplier (e.g Major Brutality/Sorcery).

It's very clearly worded as a %-based damage modifier. These can function additively (eg. Minor Berserk), or multiplicatively (eg. execute scaling, CFrags proc).

My question is which of the above two applies to the 33% bonus component of the skill, specifically. The +125 WD/SD bonus is a separate component and shouldn't interact.

(edited for clarity)

Savos_Saren

Just got home from work. Let me hop in the PTS and pull up some numbers.

TheYKcid

Thanks @Savos_Saren

Savos_Saren

So, I just created a new Dunmer on PTS. Naked (no armor, no jewelry, no weapons) with only Whip and a Chain slotted- my spell and weapon damage is 0.


First cast weap/spell damage reads: 125 on the character sheet
Second cast weap/spell damage reads: 250 on the character sheet
Third cast weap/spell damage reads: 375 on the character sheet

A naked punch on the target dummy is 228. So, after casting three times, my punch is 476. I also noticed that the punches "fade down" before the five seconds is over. The initial punch after bringing the ability up to "seething fury" is 476 then it moves to 340 then back down to 228 before the Seething Fury proc of 5 seconds is over.

So that makes me think that your weap/spell damage can stack- but will fade if you don't use it while one of the stacks is up. If someone doesn't cast their abilities quick enough- the weap/spell damage will fade before the five seconds is over. It does look like you can cast the "seething whip" after firing off three abilities- but you have to use it within the five seconds.

TLDR: You'll lose out on the stacks of weap/spell damage (as they will fade out before the 5 seconds is up) but you can cast the proc Seething Whip within the 5 seconds as it's written on the tooltip.


Edited for clarity of the casts.

TheYKcid

@Savos_Saren Wasn't referring to the 125 WD/SD per stack.

I was asking how the 33% bonus to whip itself is factored into damage calculations

Savos_Saren

Gottcha. Lemme look right fast.

TheYKcid

Some illustrations to clarify.

Say you're a toon with 2.5k spell dmg & 23040 mag. Given the known scaling coefficients, your base whip tooltip is exactly 5000.
You have 40% of damage modifiers (from CP - 25% direct damage, 15% elemental)
3 Ardent Flame stacks for a +99% bonus to whip (rounded up to 100% for ease of calculation)

Scenario 1: additive stacking
5000 * (1 + 1.00 + 0.40) = 12000 tooltip

Scenario 2: multiplicative stacking
5000 * (1 + 0.40) * (1 + 1.00) = 14000 tooltip

I suppose a 3rd scenario is possible in which each 33% multiplies in a compound manner but that would be unheard-of in ESO and quite unlikely.

Savos_Saren

So, remember, this is naked, no jewelry, no weapons, no CP (I had to put 64 points into magicka, though. I can't cast too many abilities while naked):

Whip damage with no stacks of "seething": 1529 on tooltip. Actual base damage on 3m target dummy: 972

1 stack of seething: 2210. Actual base damage on dummy: 1406

2 stacks of seething: 2979 Actual base damage on dummy: 1875

3 stacks of seething (maxed out): 3836 Actual base damage on dummy: 2440

TheYKcid

Savos_Saren wrote: »

So, remember, this is naked, no jewelry, no weapons, no CP (I had to put 64 points into magicka, though. I can't cast too many abilities while naked):

Whip damage with no stacks of "seething": 1529 on tooltip. Actual base damage on 3m target dummy: 972

1 stack of seething: 2210. Actual base damage on dummy: 1406

2 stacks of seething: 2979 Actual base damage on dummy: 1875

3 stacks of seething (maxed out): 3836 Actual base damage on dummy: 2440

@Savos_Saren Can you post your base stats please? Meaning max mag & spell damage.

I'm guessing 15062 & zero respectively?

I need those stats to control for the effect of the +375 WD/SD, since it is currently confounding the effect of the +99% (since they both influence the final damage numbers).

TheYKcid

Actually... you'll also need to invest some CP. I suggest pumping direct damage up to 25%, and elemental up to 15% as per my example calculations to simplify things.

Without any sources of %-based damage boost, it's impossible to distinguish between additive & multiplicative stacking.

Savos_Saren

Since I'm on liberty- I can take a moment to "beef up" this Dunmer with a bunch of flat-based value sets that will maximize the flame damage from the whip (like I said I would) and give him an unrealistic setup.

How about Innate (400 spell damage), Silks (400 spell damage), and Slimecraw (flat 8% damage increase) with all gold jewelry all spell damage enchantments and the Apprentice (spell damage) mundus? Do you want Divines or Impen on the armor? 5 light, 1 medium, 1 heavy? Nirnhoned legendary Inferno Staff? This, of course, would have no regen- but I'm willing to accommodate you.

Or do you want me to model him after something more realistic that a NB or Sorc would be running? Spinners? Bright Throat (can't run Necromancer... no pets)?

TheYKcid

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Since I'm on liberty- I can take a moment to "beef up" this Dunmer with a bunch of flat-based value sets that will maximize the flame damage from the whip (like I said I would) and give him an unrealistic setup.

How about Innate (400 spell damage), Silks (400 spell damage), and Slimecraw (flat 8% damage increase) with all gold jewelry all spell damage enchantments and the Apprentice (spell damage) mundus? Do you want Divines or Impen on the armor? 5 light, 1 medium, 1 heavy? Nirnhoned legendary Inferno Staff? This, of course, would have no regen- but I'm willing to accommodate you.

Or do you want me to model him after something more realistic that a NB or Sorc would be running? Spinners? Bright Throat (can't run Necromancer... no pets)?

Doesn't need to be so complex, naked with 64 attributes into mag like you originally had is fine. That should give you 15062 mag & zero spell damage, if I'm not wrong.

Just put 100 points into both Master-at-Arms & Elemental Expert CPs and you're good to go.

Savos_Saren

TheYKcid wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

So, remember, this is naked, no jewelry, no weapons, no CP (I had to put 64 points into magicka, though. I can't cast too many abilities while naked):

Whip damage with no stacks of "seething": 1529 on tooltip. Actual base damage on 3m target dummy: 972

1 stack of seething: 2210. Actual base damage on dummy: 1406

2 stacks of seething: 2979 Actual base damage on dummy: 1875

3 stacks of seething (maxed out): 3836 Actual base damage on dummy: 2440

@Savos_Saren Can you post your base stats please? Meaning max mag & spell damage.

I'm guessing 15062 & zero respectively?

I need those stats to control for the effect of the +375 WD/SD, since it is currently confounding the effect of the +99% (since they both influence the final damage numbers).

Savos_Saren

Yes, yes, I know. I play with a console controller on PC. I'm an abomination. I've got nerve damage in my left hand- so I can't feel keys with my ring and pinky finger. The controller helps me at the cost of target acquisition for aiming in PVP.

Savos_Saren

After 100 points into Elemental Expert and Master of Arms (remember, no one actually puts 100 points into either- so it's an unrealistic setup)

Let me crunch the numbers next.

Savos_Saren

Whip without any stacks of Seething: 2567 Actual damage on 3mil dummy: 1633

One stack of seething: 3401 Actual damage on dummy: 2163

Two stacks of seething: 4326 Actual damage on dummy: 2751

Three stacks of seething (max): 5336 Actual damage on dummy: 3394

TheYKcid

Perfect @Savos_Saren . Results are pretty conclusive in favour of additive stacking.

375 SD makes your base tooltip increase by a factor of 1.217x, so controlling for the unstacked actual damage value:
1633/1.4 * 1.217 = 1420

To simulate additive stacking:
1420 * 2.39 = 3393.8

Almost exactly the actual damage value you obtained for 3 stacks.

Very good info to have—it also means that Molten Whip won't be as overpowered as I initially feared (since additive stacking is much more tame compared to multiplicative. Thanks for the rigourous testing on my behalf.

Savos_Saren

Hopefully this helps.

Out of curiosity- do you want to know what Crystal Frags and Spectral Bow hit for on a target dummy? I can give you the same setup: Naked Dunmer, 64 points into Magicka, 100 CP into Master at Arms and Elemental Expert.

I'm curious to see for myself.

TheYKcid

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Hopefully this helps.

Out of curiosity- do you want to know what Crystal Frags and Spectral Bow hit for on a target dummy? I can give you the same setup: Naked Dunmer, 64 points into Magicka, 100 CP into Master at Arms and Elemental Expert.

I'm curious to see for myself.

Thanks but no need. They can be calculated quite easily. Frags is a simple 1.2x multiplicative modifier, while Spectral Bow has no frills attached whatsoever.

I can do the numbers for you if you want, given any build parameters, but I'll have to delay til later as I have an exam in 2.5 hrs time lol.

Minno

TheYKcid wrote: »

Perfect @Savos_Saren . Results are pretty conclusive in favour of additive stacking.

375 SD makes your base tooltip increase by a factor of 1.217x, so controlling for the unstacked actual damage value:
1633/1.4 * 1.217 = 1420

To simulate additive stacking:
1420 * 2.39 = 3393.8

Almost exactly the actual damage value you obtained for 3 stacks.

Very good info to have—it also means that Molten Whip won't be as overpowered as I initially feared (since additive stacking is much more tame compared to multiplicative. Thanks for the rigourous testing on my behalf.

waiting for the post/patch notes from ZOS saying this isn't intended lol /s.

Great tests!

Savos_Saren

Too late! I made a Dunmer MagSorc. 100 CP into Master At Arms and 100 CP into Elemental Expert. 64 pts into Magicka.



(What's the point of all that testing if I don't get to have a little fun???)

Savos_Saren

I also made a NB for testing... just in case @Minno wanted to compare their specs to Templars.

kalunte

well, for the stackable dmg it looks like it is additive:

if base hit should do 100%, 1stack wipe does 133%, two stack does 166% and 3 stacks does 199%, but you have to include the 125 /250/375 spell dmg passive buff. then it's never doing exactly 100/133/166/199% dmg but more something that will vary because of your spell dmg. let's say 100/135/170/204%

WrathOfInnos

So additive with itself, and multiplicative with other % bonuses like CPs?

Davadin

so for stamDK who wants to slot it just for Seething Fury, what happens? 3x Nox breath will max the stack, but it resets only when u actually use the whip, right?

Savos_Saren

Davadin wrote: »

so for stamDK who wants to slot it just for Seething Fury, what happens? 3x Nox breath will max the stack, but it resets only when u actually use the whip, right?

@Davadin
No. The stacks will fade down after a second. You don’t get to hold onto the stacks permanently.

See my second post in this thread.

TheYKcid

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

So additive with itself, and multiplicative with other % bonuses like CPs?

@WrathOfInnos No, additive with itself and also additive with other %-based sources.