FierceSam wrote: »

Propagate wrote: »

Maybe all the people complaining about ESO logs can start a guild called "RPers against ESO logs". You can all play together in your non toxic environment while you struggle through nAA on your hybrid builds.

CMX already tells me that your dps is rubbish when I am pulling 40% dps on my healer. Why would ESO logs make difference? I still don't vote to kick because no one cares about normal dungeons and this tool isn't for you.

ESO logs will help progression groups seeing what's killing the group, dps, who is rezzing etc. stop trying to ruin one of the best features in the game.

You don’t even know me, you don’t have my data and ALREADY you are abusing me.

And you wonder why I don’t want you to have my data without MY permission. You’ve done more to prove my point than I ever could.

You seem incapable of grasping that I don’t mind what you do with your data, share it, don’t share it, that should be YOUR choice. And a good tool that helped do this would be fantastic. However, I object to anyone having access to MY data without MY consent and I want the option to prevent it being recorded.

This tool offers no such option for people and blindly exports everyone’s data to a third party website. If a social media service did that with your data you would be outraged and they would be shut down immediately.

It is not YOUR data, it's ZOS's data as no personal information (only anonymized user names that cannot be linked to your real name publicly) is shared or passed.

I still agree that a full opt out should be provided FOR LOGING, NOT FOR EVENT DATA THAT ADDONS NEED TO WORK!!!

Heelie wrote: »

As for dungeons, the sort of person to kick people over bad performance already have the tools. I never PUG anymore. I can't tell how toxic the community is, but I remember getting kicked at last boss in normal WGT after soloing the entire dungeon but a group of RP'ers annoyed that I was going too fast.

Damn elitist rp-ers!

If PC players don't want it, just give it to us console plebs.

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

Look, I am not an elite end game raider. I have to use a controller because of the very severe arthritis in my hands. I can on my good days get around 20-25k single target dps, that's it. if there are a lot of enemies around I can get a lot more. but single target 20-25k. I understand the simple things. Use pots, stay out of red that kinda thing. But when the few times I have tried to do end game trials it didn't go well. Maybe I got a bad group. I told them this up front and they said it was ok. but when they saw my dps was right where I said it was 20-25k on good days 15-20k dps on bad they started to name call and demonize and blast me that I had wasted there time. Just one insult after another. Calling me names I will not repeat.

Has happened multiple times with multiple different groups of people over the years. Maybe I have bad luck. Maybe I have no business running end game content. But from what I have personally experienced. The end game community of this wonderful game is very Toxic, to say the least. If every other tool has been exploited to demonize and name call people. Then this one will be too. Maybe the intent behind this is pure. Who am I to say otherwise. but from the people I have seen and tried to group with, this tool is going to be another weapon to bully people trying to learn or try something new.

For me, this is just further proof that I most likely have no business doing end game raids. I hope I am wrong. I play for fun and not to be told I should blow my brains out for being so terrible at trial bosses. because that is the kinda end game community I have been exposed to in this game and the kind I promise will exploit this.

@DeathStalker are you on PC NA? If so, and if you are still interested in running trials let me know. This game really does have some super nice people that play it. Just sounds to me like you were unlucky and found the a holes.

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

To be entirely fair to the people with privacy concerns...
A. I'm not sure what difference using it would make when the concern is privacy or the abuse of the tool to be toxic. If I'm wrong about that, please let me know how you using it has shown that people won't abuse it.
B. Most of them want to completely opt out, which makes actually using the tool to test it counterproductive to their goal.
C. This tool is primarily being tested by people using it as intended - for their own improvement. Not by people testing to see how it can be abused how people fear it will be.

I totally believe you that the creator is super nice, put a lot of effort in, and that everyone using it as intended is going to get tons of benefit.

But I'll point out that none of that changed the original issues with Anonymity. It took community feedback before ZOS addressed privacy concerns by making everyone Anonymous by default.

That change to Anonymity as the default solved my issues with this tool - provided we don't get in game combat logs that do exactly what the previously banned add-on did. The reasons for not allowing real time combat logs displaying each character remain valid, IMO.

But other people have greater privacy concerns than I do - and actually using the tool doesn't address those concerns anymore than the niceness of the creator the usefulness of the tool does. Those are unconvincing reasons you offer. Touting the benefits and good intentions of the creator (as much as I agree with that) does not actually address the concerns of players looking primarily at the detriments and the toxic players who will use it with bad intentions.

My counter-argument to the "I want a complete opt-out" crowd because privacy/toxicity is more like:

"With anonymity as the default and the logging taking place well after the encounter, your privacy and the potential for toxicity is exactly the same as the currently allowed Combat Metrics add-on, in terms of both other players and the 3rd party website. Therefore, since your privacy and the potential for toxicity is now identical to the status quo, you do not need to restrict this tool from its intended usage for players to be able to log any combat encounter."

templesus wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

Look, I am not an elite end game raider. I have to use a controller because of the very severe arthritis in my hands. I can on my good days get around 20-25k single target dps, that's it. if there are a lot of enemies around I can get a lot more. but single target 20-25k. I understand the simple things. Use pots, stay out of red that kinda thing. But when the few times I have tried to do end game trials it didn't go well. Maybe I got a bad group. I told them this up front and they said it was ok. but when they saw my dps was right where I said it was 20-25k on good days 15-20k dps on bad they started to name call and demonize and blast me that I had wasted there time. Just one insult after another. Calling me names I will not repeat.

Has happened multiple times with multiple different groups of people over the years. Maybe I have bad luck. Maybe I have no business running end game content. But from what I have personally experienced. The end game community of this wonderful game is very Toxic, to say the least. If every other tool has been exploited to demonize and name call people. Then this one will be too. Maybe the intent behind this is pure. Who am I to say otherwise. but from the people I have seen and tried to group with, this tool is going to be another weapon to bully people trying to learn or try something new.

For me, this is just further proof that I most likely have no business doing end game raids. I hope I am wrong. I play for fun and not to be told I should blow my brains out for being so terrible at trial bosses. because that is the kinda end game community I have been exposed to in this game and the kind I promise will exploit this.

If you’re that afraid of what people say to you that you completely stay away from endgame content rather then improve your skills so it doesn’t happen again, I don’t know what to tell you. Things shouldn’t be handed to anyone. If you have arthritis in your hand that impairs performance, well let’s just say I wouldn’t tell someone with no arms to try out for the NBA. Do what you’re able to, and be satisfied with it. If you have the capacity to do better, rather then worry about some meaningless text over a screen from someone using a fake name, get better so it doesn’t happen.

You and I must have been reading what they said completely differently. This person was totally up front with the group he/she ran with about there health issues, and there lower dps. It also seems like they know there limitations, but felt the need to share there experience. I am sorry, but to be told to blow your brains out or anything else like that is disgusting. Even if this is a game these people spouting off stuff like that must be pretty miserable themselves or are bratty kids that need a good spanking. There is absolutely no defending that behavior.

DeathStalker wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

Look, I am not an elite end game raider. I have to use a controller because of the very severe arthritis in my hands. I can on my good days get around 20-25k single target dps, that's it. if there are a lot of enemies around I can get a lot more. but single target 20-25k. I understand the simple things. Use pots, stay out of red that kinda thing. But when the few times I have tried to do end game trials it didn't go well. Maybe I got a bad group. I told them this up front and they said it was ok. but when they saw my dps was right where I said it was 20-25k on good days 15-20k dps on bad they started to name call and demonize and blast me that I had wasted there time. Just one insult after another. Calling me names I will not repeat.

Has happened multiple times with multiple different groups of people over the years. Maybe I have bad luck. Maybe I have no business running end game content. But from what I have personally experienced. The end game community of this wonderful game is very Toxic, to say the least. If every other tool has been exploited to demonize and name call people. Then this one will be too. Maybe the intent behind this is pure. Who am I to say otherwise. but from the people I have seen and tried to group with, this tool is going to be another weapon to bully people trying to learn or try something new.

For me, this is just further proof that I most likely have no business doing end game raids. I hope I am wrong. I play for fun and not to be told I should blow my brains out for being so terrible at trial bosses. because that is the kinda end game community I have been exposed to in this game and the kind I promise will exploit this.

I feel sorry for you if you met these people. There are bad apples everywhere, but this game has many wonderful people in it that are not after that kind of stuff, even in endgame. Saying that all endgamers are toxic is simply not accurate. If people are that rude to you after your honesty about your limitations instead of trying to help you, they are just pathetic people who get their self esteem out of being better than others. Sadly there are a lot of people on this planet who are like that, but they are not limited to games, you will find them in business a lot too for example.

There's ways for people with disabilities to still perform very well in this game however. You can adjust your build to be a heavy attack build that still does enough dps to finish all veteran content without the hassle of having to light attack weave if you cannot do that. For that reason I published easier to play builds for a long time, because many players were grateful they got them into trials and completed hard content with them.

angelncelestine wrote: »

@DeathStalker are you on PC NA? If so, and if you are still interested in running trials let me know. This game really does have some super nice people that play it. Just sounds to me like you were unlucky and found the a holes.

I definetely second this. I am member of two social guilds (EU) myself and they both have groups with ppl who are far away from competetive playing and they still do trials. It's all a matter of communication and intent. A full opt out would be ok as long as all groups that want to participate in the logging system are given the opportunity to do so by enabling the encounter logging.

DeathStalker wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

Look, I am not an elite end game raider. I have to use a controller because of the very severe arthritis in my hands. I can on my good days get around 20-25k single target dps, that's it. if there are a lot of enemies around I can get a lot more. but single target 20-25k. I understand the simple things. Use pots, stay out of red that kinda thing. But when the few times I have tried to do end game trials it didn't go well. Maybe I got a bad group. I told them this up front and they said it was ok. but when they saw my dps was right where I said it was 20-25k on good days 15-20k dps on bad they started to name call and demonize and blast me that I had wasted there time. Just one insult after another. Calling me names I will not repeat.

Has happened multiple times with multiple different groups of people over the years. Maybe I have bad luck. Maybe I have no business running end game content. But from what I have personally experienced. The end game community of this wonderful game is very Toxic, to say the least. If every other tool has been exploited to demonize and name call people. Then this one will be too. Maybe the intent behind this is pure. Who am I to say otherwise. but from the people I have seen and tried to group with, this tool is going to be another weapon to bully people trying to learn or try something new.

For me, this is just further proof that I most likely have no business doing end game raids. I hope I am wrong. I play for fun and not to be told I should blow my brains out for being so terrible at trial bosses. because that is the kinda end game community I have been exposed to in this game and the kind I promise will exploit this.

If you’re that afraid of what people say to you that you completely stay away from endgame content rather then improve your skills so it doesn’t happen again, I don’t know what to tell you. Things shouldn’t be handed to anyone. If you have arthritis in your hand that impairs performance, well let’s just say I wouldn’t tell someone with no arms to try out for the NBA. Do what you’re able to, and be satisfied with it. If you have the capacity to do better, rather then worry about some meaningless text over a screen from someone using a fake name, get better so it doesn’t happen.

It was spoken verbally over discord, not over a text. Maybe it's just me but hearing it spoken made it more real than just a text would have been. I stated earlier myself that maybe I have no business doing end game content. I can do a skyreach run solo ( except final boss ) as well as most world bosses solo. I can even run the easier 4 man dungeons solo like darkshade caverns. Which is why I was willing to try the end game stuff. My thinking was if I can do darkshade solo, then why could I not contribute to a team doing a trial. Maybe it was just bad groups that I ended up with. The point was not to condemn all or to get attention. My point was to try to clearly illustrate that there are some very real people in this game that I guarantee will abuse this to bully others. That a full opt-out would be nice. Where not only your name but the data you produce would not be used or shared as well.

Those people, as sad as it is that they do indeed exist, won't be any different with or without this tool (with only the anom opt-out). They have existed long before Combat Metrics came into the game and will continue to exist even when all damage numbers are removed.

templesus wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

Look, I am not an elite end game raider. I have to use a controller because of the very severe arthritis in my hands. I can on my good days get around 20-25k single target dps, that's it. if there are a lot of enemies around I can get a lot more. but single target 20-25k. I understand the simple things. Use pots, stay out of red that kinda thing. But when the few times I have tried to do end game trials it didn't go well. Maybe I got a bad group. I told them this up front and they said it was ok. but when they saw my dps was right where I said it was 20-25k on good days 15-20k dps on bad they started to name call and demonize and blast me that I had wasted there time. Just one insult after another. Calling me names I will not repeat.

Has happened multiple times with multiple different groups of people over the years. Maybe I have bad luck. Maybe I have no business running end game content. But from what I have personally experienced. The end game community of this wonderful game is very Toxic, to say the least. If every other tool has been exploited to demonize and name call people. Then this one will be too. Maybe the intent behind this is pure. Who am I to say otherwise. but from the people I have seen and tried to group with, this tool is going to be another weapon to bully people trying to learn or try something new.

For me, this is just further proof that I most likely have no business doing end game raids. I hope I am wrong. I play for fun and not to be told I should blow my brains out for being so terrible at trial bosses. because that is the kinda end game community I have been exposed to in this game and the kind I promise will exploit this.

If you’re that afraid of what people say to you that you completely stay away from endgame content rather then improve your skills so it doesn’t happen again, I don’t know what to tell you. Things shouldn’t be handed to anyone. If you have arthritis in your hand that impairs performance, well let’s just say I wouldn’t tell someone with no arms to try out for the NBA. Do what you’re able to, and be satisfied with it. If you have the capacity to do better, rather then worry about some meaningless text over a screen from someone using a fake name, get better so it doesn’t happen.

It was spoken verbally over discord, not over a text. Maybe it's just me but hearing it spoken made it more real than just a text would have been. I stated earlier myself that maybe I have no business doing end game content. I can do a skyreach run solo ( except final boss ) as well as most world bosses solo. I can even run the easier 4 man dungeons solo like darkshade caverns. Which is why I was willing to try the end game stuff. My thinking was if I can do darkshade solo, then why could I not contribute to a team doing a trial. Maybe it was just bad groups that I ended up with. The point was not to condemn all or to get attention. My point was to try to clearly illustrate that there are some very real people in this game that I guarantee will abuse this to bully others. That a full opt-out would be nice. Where not only your name but the data you produce would not be used or shared as well.

“Bully” I’m sorry but seeing that word used seriously irritates me, if people are harassing you over a screen, LOOK AWAY! It really is not hard. To compare a random person talking trash to you over a video game with someone getting physically abused in real life, is appalling to me.

Again, this isn’t to say it’s right to harass people over the internet because it definitely is not, but it seriously annoys me that everyone expects everything to always be roses and violets, as if they aren’t supposed to ever see anything bad when doing anything with the internet. Too many people are sensitive both on the forums and in game and just in general.

How do you LOOK AWAY from verbally hearing it on discord? Verbally hearing it. But I guess it is my fault for being treated that way. I guess I should just toughen up and deal with it, huh. My point isn't changed by blaming me. If this forum is this divided about this now, it will be even more so in the game. This " tool " is a mistake in my opinion.

Tyrobag wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

I think you're missing the entire point here: there are people who do not want to use or be involved in this, because it is invading our privacy. You want to FORCE us to be a part of it, weather we want to or not. Nobody would have any issue with this program if it was optional, as is it is not.

Being a class rep, I'd think you'd understand that one should not push to one extreme of any argument, as there is always a middle ground that isn't just telling one side to screw off. For clarification the extremes here are: Forced Use (Current) <---> Do Not Implement. The obvious middle ground for this is to allow people to only participate if they want to. This way guilds that want to use it to collect data and improve themselves can use it (as intended), and it can't be abused to take information from unwilling victims without consent.

I really don't understand how anyone can argue against that, it in no way hurts anyone who wants to use this program with pure intentions. The only people who don't get what they want are those who intended to abuse others.

There have been data-related arguments as for why it is not possible to opt in or out entirely. In those cases the log simply wouldn't function because substantial data would be missing.

Let me make this clear: If you participate in group gameplay, you automatically make the success of it depend partially on your performance. You willingly accept to join a group in ESO or any MMO for that matter and if you do so, you affect other players and their enjoyment of gameplay. In any kind of group gameplay, other players can see your ID, dps, deaths etc. and evaluate your performance much easier than with this tool by streaming, taping or even just by showing group dps share through combat metrics. So I dont understand why players keep criticising something that is not contributing to a problem that is obviously already out there in a much more obvious manner. If you want to change that stuff, you need to change the data that are transferred from the client, because this tool simply uses data that is transferred from your individual client anyway at any time.

And just cause I am a class rep I am not allowed to have an opinion? Interesting. If I voice my opinion, I am criticized for it any time someone disagrees with it saying that "you're a class rep, you can't vote for one side." If I dont, I am accused of behaving like a politician and only saying universally agreeable things. If I vote for something that helps endgame, I get called an elitist. If i vote for something that helps casuals and dont post high end trial runs, I am criticised for not performing well enough in ESO.

My opinion does not alter the feedback I deliver to the devs. We very much delivered that many players feel their privacy is invaded and voila, they made anonymous the default option. But what you're asking for is simply too far in the opposite direction, and as you pointed out, I'm not allowed to route for an extreme.