Regarding the Combat Log System

Masel

Tyrobag wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

I think you're missing the entire point here: there are people who do not want to use or be involved in this, because it is invading our privacy. You want to FORCE us to be a part of it, weather we want to or not. Nobody would have any issue with this program if it was optional, as is it is not.

Being a class rep, I'd think you'd understand that one should not push to one extreme of any argument, as there is always a middle ground that isn't just telling one side to screw off. For clarification the extremes here are: Forced Use (Current) <---> Do Not Implement. The obvious middle ground for this is to allow people to only participate if they want to. This way guilds that want to use it to collect data and improve themselves can use it (as intended), and it can't be abused to take information from unwilling victims without consent.

I really don't understand how anyone can argue against that, it in no way hurts anyone who wants to use this program with pure intentions. The only people who don't get what they want are those who intended to abuse others.

There have been data-related arguments as for why it is not possible to opt in or out entirely. In those cases the log simply wouldn't function because substantial data would be missing.

Let me make this clear: If you participate in group gameplay, you automatically make the success of it depend partially on your performance. You willingly accept to join a group in ESO or any MMO for that matter and if you do so, you affect other players and their enjoyment of gameplay. In any kind of group gameplay, other players can see your ID, dps, deaths etc. and evaluate your performance much easier than with this tool by streaming, taping or even just by showing group dps share through combat metrics. So I dont understand why players keep criticising something that is not contributing to a problem that is obviously already out there in a much more obvious manner. If you want to change that stuff, you need to change the data that are transferred from the client, because this tool simply uses data that is transferred from your individual client anyway at any time.

And just cause I am a class rep I am not allowed to have an opinion? Interesting. If I voice my opinion, I am criticized for it any time someone disagrees with it saying that "you're a class rep, you can't vote for one side." If I dont, I am accused of behaving like a politician and only saying universally agreeable things. If I vote for something that helps endgame, I get called an elitist. If i vote for something that helps casuals and dont post high end trial runs, I am criticised for not performing well enough in ESO.

My opinion does not alter the feedback I deliver to the devs. We very much delivered that many players feel their privacy is invaded and voila, they made anonymous the default option. But what you're asking for is simply too far in the opposite direction, and as you pointed out, I'm not allowed to route for an extreme.

I didn't say you don't get an opinion, I'm only surprised that you've decided to be an extremist. I would have thought a class rep would be slightly more capable of tempering their opinion, considering that you deal with the two sides of "Nerf this!" and "No buff it!" constantly. One would think you would understand that pushing to one extreme never works.

And yes data would be missing if someone doesn't share it, that's kind of the point. I don't want you using this too on me if I don't say you can. What is so hard to understand about that? It will still work fine for groups were everyone consents to its use (aka the only groups it should ever be used in).

How is "Optional" too far in an extreme? Let me make a full chart for you:


Forced <-- False "Anonymity" -- True Opt Out -- EXACT MIDDLE GROUND -- True Opt In -- Exclusive use --> Do Not Implement

We have been on the left side of this chart the entire time.

The moment you called me an extremist is where I am out of this argument. We have been on the left side of your list because the right side is simply not possible at this point. If you dont believe the developer of eso logs that it does not work like you imagine it does then I cannot do anything here. I just cannot keep having the same argument over and over with different people. This tool is going to be implemented, and there's a reason why it is working like it does. ZoS has spent a lot of time considering these data issues, and this is the closest to fitting their intention of the tool.

MLGProPlayer

VaranisArano wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

To be entirely fair to the people with privacy concerns...
A. I'm not sure what difference using it would make when the concern is privacy or the abuse of the tool to be toxic. If I'm wrong about that, please let me know how you using it has shown that people won't abuse it.
B. Most of them want to completely opt out, which makes actually using the tool to test it counterproductive to their goal.
C. This tool is primarily being tested by people using it as intended - for their own improvement. Not by people testing to see how it can be abused how people fear it will be.

I totally believe you that the creator is super nice, put a lot of effort in, and that everyone using it as intended is going to get tons of benefit.

But I'll point out that none of that changed the original issues with Anonymity. It took community feedback before ZOS addressed privacy concerns by making everyone Anonymous by default.

That change to Anonymity as the default solved my issues with this tool - provided we don't get in game combat logs that do exactly what the previously banned add-on did. The reasons for not allowing real time combat logs displaying each character remain valid, IMO.

But other people have greater privacy concerns than I do - and actually using the tool doesn't address those concerns anymore than the niceness of the creator the usefulness of the tool does. Those are unconvincing reasons you offer. Touting the benefits and good intentions of the creator (as much as I agree with that) does not actually address the concerns of players looking primarily at the detriments and the toxic players who will use it with bad intentions.

My counter-argument to the "I want a complete opt-out" crowd because privacy/toxicity is more like:

"With anonymity as the default and the logging taking place well after the encounter, your privacy and the potential for toxicity is exactly the same as the currently allowed Combat Metrics add-on, in terms of both other players and the 3rd party website. Therefore, since your privacy and the potential for toxicity is now identical to the status quo, you do not need to restrict this tool from its intended usage for players to be able to log any combat encounter."

There is no "privacy" in video games.

None of the information you generate in this game is private. It's owned by ZOS.

MLGProPlayer

DeathStalker wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

Look, I am not an elite end game raider. I have to use a controller because of the very severe arthritis in my hands. I can on my good days get around 20-25k single target dps, that's it. if there are a lot of enemies around I can get a lot more. but single target 20-25k. I understand the simple things. Use pots, stay out of red that kinda thing. But when the few times I have tried to do end game trials it didn't go well. Maybe I got a bad group. I told them this up front and they said it was ok. but when they saw my dps was right where I said it was 20-25k on good days 15-20k dps on bad they started to name call and demonize and blast me that I had wasted there time. Just one insult after another. Calling me names I will not repeat.

Has happened multiple times with multiple different groups of people over the years. Maybe I have bad luck. Maybe I have no business running end game content. But from what I have personally experienced. The end game community of this wonderful game is very Toxic, to say the least. If every other tool has been exploited to demonize and name call people. Then this one will be too. Maybe the intent behind this is pure. Who am I to say otherwise. but from the people I have seen and tried to group with, this tool is going to be another weapon to bully people trying to learn or try something new.

For me, this is just further proof that I most likely have no business doing end game raids. I hope I am wrong. I play for fun and not to be told I should blow my brains out for being so terrible at trial bosses. because that is the kinda end game community I have been exposed to in this game and the kind I promise will exploit this.

The combat log feature won't enable this to occur any more than it already does (which isn't very often).

I'm sorry you experienced that. In playing this game for almost 3 years now, I've experienced virtually zero toxicity. It's an incredibly friendly community. You shouldn't let one experience turn you away from the game.

20-25k DPS is more than enough for normal trials. You only really need like 15k from everyone for a smooth run. No normal trials guild should even be asking for your DPS.

VaranisArano

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

To be entirely fair to the people with privacy concerns...
A. I'm not sure what difference using it would make when the concern is privacy or the abuse of the tool to be toxic. If I'm wrong about that, please let me know how you using it has shown that people won't abuse it.
B. Most of them want to completely opt out, which makes actually using the tool to test it counterproductive to their goal.
C. This tool is primarily being tested by people using it as intended - for their own improvement. Not by people testing to see how it can be abused how people fear it will be.

I totally believe you that the creator is super nice, put a lot of effort in, and that everyone using it as intended is going to get tons of benefit.

But I'll point out that none of that changed the original issues with Anonymity. It took community feedback before ZOS addressed privacy concerns by making everyone Anonymous by default.

That change to Anonymity as the default solved my issues with this tool - provided we don't get in game combat logs that do exactly what the previously banned add-on did. The reasons for not allowing real time combat logs displaying each character remain valid, IMO.

But other people have greater privacy concerns than I do - and actually using the tool doesn't address those concerns anymore than the niceness of the creator the usefulness of the tool does. Those are unconvincing reasons you offer. Touting the benefits and good intentions of the creator (as much as I agree with that) does not actually address the concerns of players looking primarily at the detriments and the toxic players who will use it with bad intentions.

My counter-argument to the "I want a complete opt-out" crowd because privacy/toxicity is more like:

"With anonymity as the default and the logging taking place well after the encounter, your privacy and the potential for toxicity is exactly the same as the currently allowed Combat Metrics add-on, in terms of both other players and the 3rd party website. Therefore, since your privacy and the potential for toxicity is now identical to the status quo, you do not need to restrict this tool from its intended usage for players to be able to log any combat encounter."

There is no "privacy" in video games.

None of the information you generate in this game is private. It's owned by ZOS.

That doesn't answer the point I'm making. I'm not talking general vague privacy. I'm talking about the status quo we have in game, right now, regarding the privacy of our combat data.

ZOS does recognize that some things don't need to be publically available in game because it causes problems. That's why they removed the API functions allowing a previous addon that gave real time combat info on every player in a group. They made that combat info private for reasons that are still valid.

So "all your bases data belong to ZOS" is somewhat immaterial when it comes down to the issue of "does this impact the privacy we currently have in game, that ZOS agrees is valuable."

It doesn't change that privacy from the status quo, IMO, now that anonymity is the default. We've got the same privacy in terms of identifiable data with Encounter logging as we do now since ZOS changed the default. So I'm fine with the tool since anonymity is now the default.

Letho2469

VaranisArano wrote: »

[...]

That doesn't answer the point I'm making. I'm not talking general vague privacy. I'm talking about the status quo we have in game, right now, regarding the privacy of our combat data.

ZOS does recognize that some things don't need to be publically available in game because it causes problems. That's why they removed the API functions allowing a previous addon that gave real time combat info on every player in a group. They made that combat info private for reasons that are still valid.

So "all your bases data belong to ZOS" is somewhat immaterial when it comes down to the issue of "does this impact the privacy we currently have in game, that ZOS agrees is valuable."

It doesn't change that privacy from the status quo, IMO, now that anonymity is the default. We've got the same privacy in terms of identifiable data with Encounter logging as we do now since ZOS changed the default. So I'm fine with the tool since anonymity is now the default.

The difference between a log based logging functionality and an API based logging functionality is time delay and neccessary effort.

API based logging can be used for implementing real time damage meters that would most likely increase the amount of toxicity in this game.

1. A log based logging functionality needs a 3rd party application for uploading the logs that many players might shy away from as it is a 3rd party .exe file. Not everybody will have the neccessary information that this 3rd party program is actually allowed by ZOS.

2. Uploading logs takes ressources: cpu power, bandwidth, time and effort. Uploading two trials fights from the PTS (sunspire, 1 pull and wipe + 1 pull and kill) takes nearly two minutes. The combat log is updated in intervals.

All those facts make using the tool for bullying people very suboptimal, I would never take the effort to take all the effort mentioned above to log outside of progression situations where a deeper analysis is needed. And those persons who do not refrain from abusing this tool for toxic behaviour would probably behave that way without this tool anyway.

That is why - contrary to ingame damage meters - ZOS considers this tool to be in line with their values.

VaranisArano

Letho2469 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

[...]

That doesn't answer the point I'm making. I'm not talking general vague privacy. I'm talking about the status quo we have in game, right now, regarding the privacy of our combat data.

ZOS does recognize that some things don't need to be publically available in game because it causes problems. That's why they removed the API functions allowing a previous addon that gave real time combat info on every player in a group. They made that combat info private for reasons that are still valid.

So "all your bases data belong to ZOS" is somewhat immaterial when it comes down to the issue of "does this impact the privacy we currently have in game, that ZOS agrees is valuable."

It doesn't change that privacy from the status quo, IMO, now that anonymity is the default. We've got the same privacy in terms of identifiable data with Encounter logging as we do now since ZOS changed the default. So I'm fine with the tool since anonymity is now the default.

The difference between a log based logging functionality and an API based logging functionality is time delay and neccessary effort.

API based logging can be used for implementing real time damage meters that would most likely increase the amount of toxicity in this game.

1. A log based logging functionality needs a 3rd party application for uploading the logs that many players might shy away from as it is a 3rd party .exe file. Not everybody will have the neccessary information that this 3rd party program is actually allowed by ZOS.

2. Uploading logs takes ressources: cpu power, bandwidth, time and effort. Uploading two trials fights from the PTS (sunspire, 1 pull and wipe + 1 pull and kill) takes nearly two minutes. The combat log is updated in intervals.

All those facts make using the tool for bullying people very suboptimal, I would never take the effort to take all the effort mentioned above to log outside of progression situations where a deeper analysis is needed. And those persons who do not refrain from abusing this tool for toxic behaviour would probably behave that way without this tool anyway.

That is why - contrary to ingame damage meters - ZOS considers this tool to be in line with their values.

Er, yes...that's precusely the point I'm making (attempting to make, anyways).

With Anonymity as the default, we have the same privacy of combat data as we do now.

I'm arguing against the statement that argues "All our data belongs to ZOS so there's no point in caring about privacy whatsoever because nithing is private" which is demonstrably not true, given that ZOS draws a distinction between API in game vs the out of game logging and analysis, as you did. Some things, ZOS does keep private from other players, and we see that even with Encounter Logging, now that Anonymity is the default.

Letho2469

VaranisArano wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

[...]

That doesn't answer the point I'm making. I'm not talking general vague privacy. I'm talking about the status quo we have in game, right now, regarding the privacy of our combat data.

ZOS does recognize that some things don't need to be publically available in game because it causes problems. That's why they removed the API functions allowing a previous addon that gave real time combat info on every player in a group. They made that combat info private for reasons that are still valid.

So "all your bases data belong to ZOS" is somewhat immaterial when it comes down to the issue of "does this impact the privacy we currently have in game, that ZOS agrees is valuable."

It doesn't change that privacy from the status quo, IMO, now that anonymity is the default. We've got the same privacy in terms of identifiable data with Encounter logging as we do now since ZOS changed the default. So I'm fine with the tool since anonymity is now the default.

The difference between a log based logging functionality and an API based logging functionality is time delay and neccessary effort.

API based logging can be used for implementing real time damage meters that would most likely increase the amount of toxicity in this game.

1. A log based logging functionality needs a 3rd party application for uploading the logs that many players might shy away from as it is a 3rd party .exe file. Not everybody will have the neccessary information that this 3rd party program is actually allowed by ZOS.

2. Uploading logs takes ressources: cpu power, bandwidth, time and effort. Uploading two trials fights from the PTS (sunspire, 1 pull and wipe + 1 pull and kill) takes nearly two minutes. The combat log is updated in intervals.

All those facts make using the tool for bullying people very suboptimal, I would never take the effort to take all the effort mentioned above to log outside of progression situations where a deeper analysis is needed. And those persons who do not refrain from abusing this tool for toxic behaviour would probably behave that way without this tool anyway.

That is why - contrary to ingame damage meters - ZOS considers this tool to be in line with their values.

Er, yes...that's precusely the point I'm making (attempting to make, anyways).

With Anonymity as the default, we have the same privacy of combat data as we do now.

I'm arguing against the statement that argues "All our data belongs to ZOS so there's no point in caring about privacy whatsoever because nithing is private" which is demonstrably not true, given that ZOS draws a distinction between API in game vs the out of game logging and analysis, as you did. Some things, ZOS does keep private from other players, and we see that even with Encounter Logging, now that Anonymity is the default.

D'OH! All hail to those who are able to read AND understand >.> sorry.

virtus753

Masel wrote: »

Let me make this clear: If you participate in group gameplay, you automatically make the success of it depend partially on your performance. You willingly accept to join a group in ESO or any MMO for that matter and if you do so, you affect other players and their enjoyment of gameplay.

Please also make this clear: when was the tool changed to log only members within the same group? (I don’t see it mentioned anywhere, but perhaps I missed it.)

Any argument based on the implication of an agreement made by willingly entering a group is outright irrelevant in those situations where people are logged who are not in groups. It’s impossible to ensure that no one outside of a group will ever be logged with the current functionality, insofar as we were last made aware. In fact, it’s quite probable that people outside of groups will be logged at some point, again quite probably without their knowledge (and therefore consent). I fail to see how any argument alluding to a kind of social contract in formal group play can possibly apply in those cases. It certainly cannot constitute an adequate defense of the tool in its current state.

I would argue that it’s really none of anyone else’s business how another player is performing in combat *unless* they are in group in the first place - in which case it becomes dependent on context, in my opinion, as I prefer not to see “group contract” as carte blanche (nor do I appreciate that position being advocated quite so condescendingly, which I find particularly worrisome from someone who seems to be a class rep). But erring on the side of respecting what little privacy we have left (or respect full stop) is apparently passé these days.

Restrict this tool only to group members, and the conversation changes - slightly for some, greatly for others. Unless you’re privy to new changes, however, anyone can be logged at any time, grouped or not, aware or not. Any informed discussion has to proceed from that basis.

Masel

virtus753 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Let me make this clear: If you participate in group gameplay, you automatically make the success of it depend partially on your performance. You willingly accept to join a group in ESO or any MMO for that matter and if you do so, you affect other players and their enjoyment of gameplay.

Please also make this clear: when was the tool changed to log only members within the same group? (I don’t see it mentioned anywhere, but perhaps I missed it.)

Any argument based on the implication of an agreement made by willingly entering a group is outright irrelevant in those situations where people are logged who are not in groups. It’s impossible to ensure that no one outside of a group will ever be logged with the current functionality, insofar as we were last made aware. In fact, it’s quite probable that people outside of groups will be logged at some point, again quite probably without their knowledge (and therefore consent). I fail to see how any argument alluding to a kind of social contract in formal group play can possibly apply in those cases. It certainly cannot constitute an adequate defense of the tool in its current state.

I would argue that it’s really none of anyone else’s business how another player is performing in combat *unless* they are in group in the first place - in which case it becomes dependent on context, in my opinion, as I prefer not to see “group contract” as carte blanche (nor do I appreciate that position being advocated quite so condescendingly, which I find particularly worrisome from someone who seems to be a class rep). But erring on the side of respecting what little privacy we have left (or respect full stop) is apparently passé these days.

Restrict this tool only to group members, and the conversation changes - slightly for some, greatly for others. Unless you’re privy to new changes, however, anyone can be logged at any time, grouped or not, aware or not. Any informed discussion has to proceed from that basis.

So you are worried about someone logging world bosses or other overland content? These are not even captured by the tool as specific fights up to this point, because its functionality is restricted to instanced content... you can log them, but they will be recognized as trash fights. And I also dont think anyone will invest the effort to start logging a world boss and then upload it just to not be able to see half of the players identity because they will be set to anonymous. I mean, what are we even talking about at this point?

In any other scenario in ESO, you willingly accept to be in a group and deal with the consequences.

Feanor

@Masel

Turns out Mass Hysteria isn’t an NB exclusive skill after all it seems.

Thicclady

Feanor wrote: »

@Masel

Turns out Mass Hysteria isn’t an NB exclusive skill after all it seems.

Aww sweet bromance there...


Y'all who are for this thing there is one common thing; You wanna deny the possibility of activating/deactivating the meters. It is pretty obvious that only reason for that is you want to stalk other people what they doing, propably mostly for your elitism when im looking the ach. titles writing in this thread.

Read this ZoS, its abomination if you dont make it that its possible to HIDE completele ones results, its not enough to post the stats and put anonymous there one personj. People who play now on PTS are mostly not casuals and ofc they are for it because they go in organized raid groups

Thicclady

Apparently, you can replay the whole combat with this log thing and can see how everyone is moving even.

So as it is now on PTS, in every group when in combat I'm livestreaming myself without my consent, without choice, without getting paid.

This is taken more far than in World of Warcraft even.

This is what happens when you give free hands in game design to few -nicely said- technical people without thinking the big picture.

TheZachinator

Thicclady wrote: »

Apparently, you can replay the whole combat with this log thing and can see how everyone is moving even.

So as it is now on PTS, in every group when in combat I'm livestreaming myself without my consent, without choice, without getting paid.

This is taken more far than in World of Warcraft even.

This is what happens when you give free hands in game design to few -nicely said- technical people without thinking the big picture.

I legit don't understand your concern (though to be fair, I haven't read all 6 pages).

You are worried that groups are going to be able to replay your combat actions, correct? That literally comes down to two scenarios:

1) You are in a group that actually cares about combat logs (e.g. endgame raid teams) and are worried you aren't good enough and can't hide it from them anymore. The funny thing is, pretty much every endgame team is going to want your parse/call you out on dumb mistakes/etc. Combat logs just make it easier for them to do what they already do.

2) You are in a group that doesn't care about combat logs whatsoever (e.g. random dungeon groups/pug runs) and are worried they're going to? I don't know, judge you or something? Like, you have to have REALLY low self-esteem to worry what a random group thinks about you. Plus, it's not like people can see it in realtime and be like "oh, this person sucked lets kick them". You can't see the log until after the fight is done anyway (at least, from what I've heard; I haven't tested it myself). But anyways, why would a random group care in the first place? And why would you care what they think?

I legitimately don't understand why so many people are upset by the combat logs; literally the only people who will use them are people who already had requirements/judgements/whatever in the first place (e.g. raid leads).

Thicclady

TheZachinator wrote: »

Thicclady wrote: »

Apparently, you can replay the whole combat with this log thing and can see how everyone is moving even.

So as it is now on PTS, in every group when in combat I'm livestreaming myself without my consent, without choice, without getting paid.

This is taken more far than in World of Warcraft even.

This is what happens when you give free hands in game design to few -nicely said- technical people without thinking the big picture.

I legit don't understand your concern (though to be fair, I haven't read all 6 pages).

You are worried that groups are going to be able to replay your combat actions, correct? That literally comes down to two scenarios:

1) You are in a group that actually cares about combat logs (e.g. endgame raid teams) and are worried you aren't good enough and can't hide it from them anymore. The funny thing is, pretty much every endgame team is going to want your parse/call you out on dumb mistakes/etc. Combat logs just make it easier for them to do what they already do.

2) You are in a group that doesn't care about combat logs whatsoever (e.g. random dungeon groups/pug runs) and are worried they're going to? I don't know, judge you or something? Like, you have to have REALLY low self-esteem to worry what a random group thinks about you. Plus, it's not like people can see it in realtime and be like "oh, this person sucked lets kick them". You can't see the log until after the fight is done anyway (at least, from what I've heard; I haven't tested it myself). But anyways, why would a random group care in the first place? And why would you care what they think?

I legitimately don't understand why so many people are upset by the combat logs; literally the only people who will use them are people who already had requirements/judgements/whatever in the first place (e.g. raid leads).

Yes, you do know that when you put that log file public, ANYONE can watch it no need to even play ESO. So even if the raid leader decides that this groups run isnt public, anyone in group can publish it in what ever motive.

No I don't have to have really low self esteem, its a small community and no one likes to be laughed at, dont pretend that doesnt matter in raiding. Why cant you just run with your toxic raid groups and perfect game play with 500 hours of dummy time all you want, and leave casual players out of this.

Thicclady

I have question for Gina btw.

If the logs come like this, I suppose it is also ok to post them in this ESO forum and analyze them and players in that group right?

T3hasiangod

Thicclady wrote: »

TheZachinator wrote: »

Thicclady wrote: »

Apparently, you can replay the whole combat with this log thing and can see how everyone is moving even.

So as it is now on PTS, in every group when in combat I'm livestreaming myself without my consent, without choice, without getting paid.

This is taken more far than in World of Warcraft even.

This is what happens when you give free hands in game design to few -nicely said- technical people without thinking the big picture.

I legit don't understand your concern (though to be fair, I haven't read all 6 pages).

You are worried that groups are going to be able to replay your combat actions, correct? That literally comes down to two scenarios:

1) You are in a group that actually cares about combat logs (e.g. endgame raid teams) and are worried you aren't good enough and can't hide it from them anymore. The funny thing is, pretty much every endgame team is going to want your parse/call you out on dumb mistakes/etc. Combat logs just make it easier for them to do what they already do.

2) You are in a group that doesn't care about combat logs whatsoever (e.g. random dungeon groups/pug runs) and are worried they're going to? I don't know, judge you or something? Like, you have to have REALLY low self-esteem to worry what a random group thinks about you. Plus, it's not like people can see it in realtime and be like "oh, this person sucked lets kick them". You can't see the log until after the fight is done anyway (at least, from what I've heard; I haven't tested it myself). But anyways, why would a random group care in the first place? And why would you care what they think?

I legitimately don't understand why so many people are upset by the combat logs; literally the only people who will use them are people who already had requirements/judgements/whatever in the first place (e.g. raid leads).

Yes, you do know that when you put that log file public, ANYONE can watch it no need to even play ESO. So even if the raid leader decides that this groups run isnt public, anyone in group can publish it in what ever motive.

No I don't have to have really low self esteem, its a small community and no one likes to be laughed at, dont pretend that doesnt matter in raiding. Why cant you just run with your toxic raid groups and perfect game play with 500 hours of dummy time all you want, and leave casual players out of this.

Can you please tell me one reason why a casual player would be using this tool in the first place? Or why an end-game player would use this tool at world bosses, pug dungeon runs, etc.?

No, being toxic is not a good reason because they don't need this tool to do that.

VaranisArano

Thicclady wrote: »

I have question for Gina btw.

If the logs come like this, I suppose it is also ok to post them in this ESO forum and analyze them and players in that group right?

Naming and shaming would still be against the rules.

So just like the folks posting combat metrics parses and Battleground recaps, or PVP death recaps...

Posting is probably fine.
Posting to be toxic is still not fine.

muh

DeathStalker wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I truly believe the only thing this log system is going to accomplish is being as divisive in the game as this thread has been.

This whole discussion is hysterical, exaggerated and very badly informed. Welcome to the internet.

There's a very nice person who put a lot of effort into this tool, and since I have actually used it, i can say that it does a lot more for the game than what many people here make it seem. It is really good for content creators across the board, helps doing guides etc.

Has anyone of the people who discredit it in here actually used it? I bet they did not.

Look, I am not an elite end game raider. I have to use a controller because of the very severe arthritis in my hands. I can on my good days get around 20-25k single target dps, that's it. if there are a lot of enemies around I can get a lot more. but single target 20-25k. I understand the simple things. Use pots, stay out of red that kinda thing. But when the few times I have tried to do end game trials it didn't go well. Maybe I got a bad group. I told them this up front and they said it was ok. but when they saw my dps was right where I said it was 20-25k on good days 15-20k dps on bad they started to name call and demonize and blast me that I had wasted there time. Just one insult after another. Calling me names I will not repeat.

Has happened multiple times with multiple different groups of people over the years. Maybe I have bad luck. Maybe I have no business running end game content. But from what I have personally experienced. The end game community of this wonderful game is very Toxic, to say the least. If every other tool has been exploited to demonize and name call people. Then this one will be too. Maybe the intent behind this is pure. Who am I to say otherwise. but from the people I have seen and tried to group with, this tool is going to be another weapon to bully people trying to learn or try something new.

For me, this is just further proof that I most likely have no business doing end game raids. I hope I am wrong. I play for fun and not to be told I should blow my brains out for being so terrible at trial bosses. because that is the kinda end game community I have been exposed to in this game and the kind I promise will exploit this.

Honestly, I don't believe logging would make situations worse for you.

Right now people, especially in PUGs have more often than not no clue themselves. If something doesn't go well and you've been up front with your condition and what to expect from you, you've made yourself an easy target.

Now with logs, they could have helped to figure out the real issue, maybe you've not been the only person with "non-meta" DPS. Maybe there have been a lot of different small things from all players in the group that contributed to it not going well.

I really think logs will reveal how many people are more talk than walk.
To me you seem to be a rare exception to a lot of people playing ESO. You're trying to do the best you can.

TheZachinator

Thicclady wrote: »

TheZachinator wrote: »

Thicclady wrote: »

Apparently, you can replay the whole combat with this log thing and can see how everyone is moving even.

So as it is now on PTS, in every group when in combat I'm livestreaming myself without my consent, without choice, without getting paid.

This is taken more far than in World of Warcraft even.

This is what happens when you give free hands in game design to few -nicely said- technical people without thinking the big picture.

I legit don't understand your concern (though to be fair, I haven't read all 6 pages).

You are worried that groups are going to be able to replay your combat actions, correct? That literally comes down to two scenarios:

1) You are in a group that actually cares about combat logs (e.g. endgame raid teams) and are worried you aren't good enough and can't hide it from them anymore. The funny thing is, pretty much every endgame team is going to want your parse/call you out on dumb mistakes/etc. Combat logs just make it easier for them to do what they already do.

2) You are in a group that doesn't care about combat logs whatsoever (e.g. random dungeon groups/pug runs) and are worried they're going to? I don't know, judge you or something? Like, you have to have REALLY low self-esteem to worry what a random group thinks about you. Plus, it's not like people can see it in realtime and be like "oh, this person sucked lets kick them". You can't see the log until after the fight is done anyway (at least, from what I've heard; I haven't tested it myself). But anyways, why would a random group care in the first place? And why would you care what they think?

I legitimately don't understand why so many people are upset by the combat logs; literally the only people who will use them are people who already had requirements/judgements/whatever in the first place (e.g. raid leads).

Yes, you do know that when you put that log file public, ANYONE can watch it no need to even play ESO. So even if the raid leader decides that this groups run isnt public, anyone in group can publish it in what ever motive.

No I don't have to have really low self esteem, its a small community and no one likes to be laughed at, dont pretend that doesnt matter in raiding. Why cant you just run with your toxic raid groups and perfect game play with 500 hours of dummy time all you want, and leave casual players out of this.

I'm fully aware of that; how is that a problem? And the thing I don't think you understand is the casual players ARE out of this. Like I said before, the only people seriously using this will be raid leads who won't have casual players in their groups anyways. Why would anyone actually care about what a casual player does in a pug? The only people who would actually care are the elitists that go into random dungeons and make fun of people regardless if there's a log or not.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I don't run with toxic groups so please don't assume that just because I'm an endgame raider I'm also toxic. Tbh, there are more toxic casuals than endgamers LOL

WrathOfInnos

So if I’m understanding correctly, the main concern here is:

Toxic end game player turns on logging, goes to an overland world boss, observes other people there, and records or otherwise documents their names and some other type of identifying feature (such as seeing certain skills used at certain times). They then kill the boss, stop logging, upload the world boss logs as public, see several anonymous players listed, dissect their builds to find something to be toxic about, review their video recordings to correlate which anonymous player is associated with which character name, then post this information somewhere public to shame the other player.

That scenario seems pretty unlikely to ever happen. It would be a elaborate setup, with no real benefit to anyone involved. We all know people run whatever they want in overland content, and nobody cares. And if you were actually called out on something by this ridiculous method, literally all you have to do is say “that wasn’t me, there must have been another anonymous player doing that”, and there’s no way to prove it.

Sure an associated video with linked up timestamps could be used as evidence, but if you’re in a recorded video doing something obvious like spamming siege shield on PVE enemies, then nobody needs combat logs to laugh at you.

All that being said, I actually have no problem with this tool being made to work only for groups. This would still maintain all the useful functionality, while possibly reducing the paranoia. It is going to be a great tool for dungeons and trials, and the current anonymous opt-in system is sufficient to protect against naming and shaming.

VaranisArano

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

So if I’m understanding correctly, the main concern here is:

Toxic end game player turns on logging, goes to an overland world boss, observes other people there, and records or otherwise documents their names and some other type of identifying feature (such as seeing certain skills used at certain times). They then kill the boss, stop logging, upload the world boss logs as public, see several anonymous players listed, dissect their builds to find something to be toxic about, review their video recordings to correlate which anonymous player is associated with which character name, then post this information somewhere public to shame the other player.

That scenario seems pretty unlikely to ever happen. It would be a elaborate setup, with no real benefit to anyone involved. We all know people run whatever they want in overland content, and nobody cares. And if you were actually called out on something by this ridiculous method, literally all you have to do is say “that wasn’t me, there must have been another anonymous player doing that”, and there’s no way to prove it.

Sure an associated video with linked up timestamps could be used as evidence, but if you’re in a recorded video doing something obvious like spamming siege shield on PVE enemies, then nobody needs combat logs to laugh at you.

All that being said, I actually have no problem with this tool being made to work only for groups. This would still maintain all the useful functionality, while possibly reducing the paranoia. It is going to be a great tool for dungeons and trials, and the current anonymous opt-in system is sufficient to protect against naming and shaming.

I suspect the concern is that the above scenario is more likely to happen on dungeons or trials, since that's where the vast majority of toxic behavior happens. Its usually from groupmates who are PO'ed that the run didn't go as smoothly as they desired or feel the need to humiliate someone not performing up to their standards.

But as you say, the solution is the same, assuming the player targeted is set to anonymous. So I agree that the anonymous system is as good as the protections we currently have against naming and shaming, which is still against the rules.

TheZachinator

Let me just confirm this again: No one cares what a PUG group does. I don't understand why people don't get it. NO ONE CARES WHAT A PUG GROUP DOES; IT'S A PUG FOR A REASON. If someone is going to be toxic they're going to do it with or without a combat log. When I do a pug dungeon and am doing 80% of the DPS and get 0 orbs with 0 major breach , I know that the other guys aren't "pulling their weight" per say. I don't need a log to tell me that; CMX does it just fine. But you know what? I don't care. It's a PUG. Let people have fun. No one cares. Let me repeat, no one cares what a pug group does, unless that person is already toxic in which case they'll be toxic with or without a combat log.

EDIT: I'm a bit worried that now people are going to boycott CMX soooo maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it lmao

Bulkhatos

Combat log, one of the best thing to hear, as a Ps4 player(yeah i know most of pc player don't care about us) THIS IS REALLY NECESSARY.

Masel

Bulkhatos wrote: »

Combat log, one of the best thing to hear, as a Ps4 player(yeah i know most of pc player don't care about us) THIS IS REALLY NECESSARY.

Sadly, Microsoft and Sony haven't been very helpful here. You wont have access to it on console

kathandira

DeathStalker wrote: »

[How do you LOOK AWAY from verbally hearing it on discord? Verbally hearing it. But I guess it is my fault for being treated that way. I guess I should just toughen up and deal with it, huh. My point isn't changed by blaming me. If this forum is this divided about this now, it will be even more so in the game. This " tool " is a mistake in my opinion.

If you stay in a chat application where you are being harassed, that is on your. There is an option leave the server, and as well to block other users. And if it somehow continues, uninstall the app and move onto something else.

JadeCoin

Masel wrote: »

Bulkhatos wrote: »

Combat log, one of the best thing to hear, as a Ps4 player(yeah i know most of pc player don't care about us) THIS IS REALLY NECESSARY.

Sadly, Microsoft and Sony haven't been very helpful here. You wont have access to it on console

@Masel console players desperately need, at minimum, a detailed breakdown of information on the target dummy, and adequate, customizable buff/debuff/uptime tracking. This wouldn't require the combat log system specifically.

I consider myself a casual/semi-casual player, but even I would spend more time practicing if I had a better way to get feedback. The flat dps number doesn't provide enough information.

PC players have increasingly refined tools aimed at helping them improve their skills (including this one), which leaves console players further and further behind the curve. Since the new content that's being created is presumably designed to challenge PC players who have these refined tools, it's an issue that genuinely needs attention.

reprosal

JadeCoin wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Bulkhatos wrote: »

Combat log, one of the best thing to hear, as a Ps4 player(yeah i know most of pc player don't care about us) THIS IS REALLY NECESSARY.

Sadly, Microsoft and Sony haven't been very helpful here. You wont have access to it on console

@Masel console players desperately need, at minimum, a detailed breakdown of information on the target dummy, and adequate, customizable buff/debuff/uptime tracking. This wouldn't require the combat log system specifically.

I consider myself a casual/semi-casual player, but even I would spend more time practicing if I had a better way to get feedback. The flat dps number doesn't provide enough information.

PC players have increasingly refined tools aimed at helping them improve their skills (including this one), which leaves console players further and further behind the curve. Since the new content that's being created is presumably designed to challenge PC players who have these refined tools, it's an issue that genuinely needs attention.

And sadly limited by console hardware and technology. You can’t do a txt dump on a PS4 and parse out the data tables from there. They would have to write some kind of logging system from scratch. The ROI is just not there.

T3hasiangod

JadeCoin wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Bulkhatos wrote: »

Combat log, one of the best thing to hear, as a Ps4 player(yeah i know most of pc player don't care about us) THIS IS REALLY NECESSARY.

Sadly, Microsoft and Sony haven't been very helpful here. You wont have access to it on console

@Masel console players desperately need, at minimum, a detailed breakdown of information on the target dummy, and adequate, customizable buff/debuff/uptime tracking. This wouldn't require the combat log system specifically.

I consider myself a casual/semi-casual player, but even I would spend more time practicing if I had a better way to get feedback. The flat dps number doesn't provide enough information.

PC players have increasingly refined tools aimed at helping them improve their skills (including this one), which leaves console players further and further behind the curve. Since the new content that's being created is presumably designed to challenge PC players who have these refined tools, it's an issue that genuinely needs attention.

This is not a ZOS issue. This is a Sony and Microsoft issue. The developers of these consoles are not particularly keen on allowing add-ons to games on the console. The issue for the combat logs is the fact that the system is constantly writing to a text file stored on the hard drive. This file then needs to be read by an add-on or website to be of any use. Microsoft and Sony will not permit this.

JadeCoin

reprosal wrote: »

JadeCoin wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Bulkhatos wrote: »

Combat log, one of the best thing to hear, as a Ps4 player(yeah i know most of pc player don't care about us) THIS IS REALLY NECESSARY.

Sadly, Microsoft and Sony haven't been very helpful here. You wont have access to it on console

@Masel console players desperately need, at minimum, a detailed breakdown of information on the target dummy, and adequate, customizable buff/debuff/uptime tracking. This wouldn't require the combat log system specifically.

I consider myself a casual/semi-casual player, but even I would spend more time practicing if I had a better way to get feedback. The flat dps number doesn't provide enough information.

PC players have increasingly refined tools aimed at helping them improve their skills (including this one), which leaves console players further and further behind the curve. Since the new content that's being created is presumably designed to challenge PC players who have these refined tools, it's an issue that genuinely needs attention.

And sadly limited by console hardware and technology. You can’t do a txt dump on a PS4 and parse out the data tables from there. They would have to write some kind of logging system from scratch. The ROI is just not there.

You don't have to do a txt dump to have a better UI for tracking buffs, debuffs, and ability uptimes. I really am talking baby steps here. There are plenty of things that could be done within the limits of console technology.

ManwithBeard9

Thicclady wrote: »

Apparently, you can replay the whole combat with this log thing and can see how everyone is moving even.

So as it is now on PTS, in every group when in combat I'm livestreaming myself without my consent, without choice, without getting paid.

This is taken more far than in World of Warcraft even.

This is what happens when you give free hands in game design to few -nicely said- technical people without thinking the big picture.

There's a pretty high chance you've already wound up a stream at some point in time.