Regarding the Combat Log System

idk

templesus wrote: »

Thicclady wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

They need a full and complete opt-out. No recording unless everyone agrees.

There are four really good discussions on what people think of this and whether ZOS allowing this is against certain privacy laws in certain countries.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468928/eso-logs-consent-is-not-gdpr-compliant-very-promising/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468778/encounter-logger-should-default-be-anonymous-currently-is-not/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467949/encounter-logging/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468224/eso-logs-invasive-or-useful/p1


As a result of these discussions, this was posted.

ZOS_BobbyWeir wrote: »

Hey everyone! Based on your feedback, we are changing the default value for the Anonymous setting to "On". This means your character name and UserID will not be included in an encounter log unless you change the setting. This change will not be in the upcoming PTS build but expect to see it in one of the following ones.

A minor detail that is specific to PTS - when this change hits PTS, your setting will flip. Once live though, everyone will be set to "On".

If you are anonymous, the log data is not associated with your character name or @ name and is no longer "personal data". It only becomes "personal data" when it can be associated with your personal information.

The armchair GDPR lawyering is hilarious.

Also, "four really good discussions" ... LOL! The only "good discussion" was related to setting the log to anonymous by default. Everything else is the same 6 people circle-jerking the same ridiculous nonsense. And now they're shambling over to this thread too.

"We already have real-time DPS sharing via CMX + Hodor Reflexes. That ship has sailed."

Your the one whos circle jerking same thing, I already said that your argument is invalid. Just because something exists, doesnt mean its ok to do it by ZoS officially especially this way.

Also one point here is (saying it again because you dont seem to read) that even data is anonymous, it becomes non anonymous when it can be used to figure out who is in question.

Please do not post to this thread anymore (or internet for that matter), its embarassing to watch your "lol":s.

I would be remiss if I did not say that it is indeed the same people who are against the tool all commenting and posting discussions. It is clear a select group of people are afraid of being exposed over a screen, and thus are voicing against the tool.

Umm, no. This statement above is nothing more that an attempt to discredit those who disagree merely because they disagree. It provides nothing of substance or value to this discussion and merely aims to discredit others with baseless statements.

I raid with core teams and guilds where we constantly have to demonstrate we can perform to the levels expected by sharing our dps. However, I am thoughtful enough, and not so self centered to realize not everyone that plays ESO (probably a majority) are interested in sharing their dps and have no reason to want to.

It has also been brought to our attention via actual testing that this tool will capture other players actions even if they are not grouped with you, but happen to be nearby.

When this was announced it was clear there was a very lazy approach to this on the part of Zos and how they the client. It could have very easily been a system that required full opt in for information to be gathered and that is something that exists in other games and would have been easy for raid teams to manage. Instead we have the more indolent design.

My comments do not reflect on the third party that designed the website, but only on the leadership with Zos.

templesus

idk wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Thicclady wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

They need a full and complete opt-out. No recording unless everyone agrees.

There are four really good discussions on what people think of this and whether ZOS allowing this is against certain privacy laws in certain countries.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468928/eso-logs-consent-is-not-gdpr-compliant-very-promising/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468778/encounter-logger-should-default-be-anonymous-currently-is-not/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467949/encounter-logging/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468224/eso-logs-invasive-or-useful/p1


As a result of these discussions, this was posted.

ZOS_BobbyWeir wrote: »

Hey everyone! Based on your feedback, we are changing the default value for the Anonymous setting to "On". This means your character name and UserID will not be included in an encounter log unless you change the setting. This change will not be in the upcoming PTS build but expect to see it in one of the following ones.

A minor detail that is specific to PTS - when this change hits PTS, your setting will flip. Once live though, everyone will be set to "On".

If you are anonymous, the log data is not associated with your character name or @ name and is no longer "personal data". It only becomes "personal data" when it can be associated with your personal information.

The armchair GDPR lawyering is hilarious.

Also, "four really good discussions" ... LOL! The only "good discussion" was related to setting the log to anonymous by default. Everything else is the same 6 people circle-jerking the same ridiculous nonsense. And now they're shambling over to this thread too.

"We already have real-time DPS sharing via CMX + Hodor Reflexes. That ship has sailed."

Your the one whos circle jerking same thing, I already said that your argument is invalid. Just because something exists, doesnt mean its ok to do it by ZoS officially especially this way.

Also one point here is (saying it again because you dont seem to read) that even data is anonymous, it becomes non anonymous when it can be used to figure out who is in question.

Please do not post to this thread anymore (or internet for that matter), its embarassing to watch your "lol":s.

I would be remiss if I did not say that it is indeed the same people who are against the tool all commenting and posting discussions. It is clear a select group of people are afraid of being exposed over a screen, and thus are voicing against the tool.

Umm, no. This statement above is nothing more that an attempt to discredit those who disagree merely because they disagree. It provides nothing of substance or value to this discussion and merely aims to discredit others with baseless statements.

I raid with core teams and guilds where we constantly have to demonstrate we can perform to the levels expected by sharing our dps. However, I am thoughtful enough, and not so self centered to realize not everyone that plays ESO (probably a majority) are interested in sharing their dps and have no reason to want to.

It has also been brought to our attention via actual testing that this tool will capture other players actions even if they are not grouped with you, but happen to be nearby.

When this was announced it was clear there was a very lazy approach to this on the part of Zos and how they the client. It could have very easily been a system that required full opt in for information to be gathered and that is something that exists in other games and would have been easy for raid teams to manage. Instead we have the more indolent design.

My comments do not reflect on the third party that designed the website, but only on the leadership with Zos.

No, it shouldn’t be full opt in. There is no instance in this game where someone else should be able to physically prevent me from improving my own gameplay, period. Kihra already stated it’s all or none, so a full opt out system would mean no data could be collected at all, even if I want to further myself. I still have not seen a single tangible argument for why it should be opt in, privacy and not wanting to share ones DPS are not backable arguments as you have no claim to your character data, ZOS does, you agreed to it in the TOC.

The current system is fine. Default set to anonymous, let’s keep it that way. Thanks for your hard work on the tool again. @ZOS_BobbyWeir

FierceSam

I am all for any kind of combat metrics/Log as long as information on an individual’s performance is recorded with informed consent and there is some mechanism for preventing recording of my/their performance.

My issue isn’t their usefulness, it is one of game privacy and consent.. simply blanking off someone’s name does not make them anonymous in any meaningful way.

I am 100% against any invasive metrics which I cannot block. You only have to look at the negative effects of add-ons like Loot Logger, where group members will whisper others about loot they have picked up (and may not even have looked at) to see how detrimental this can be.

I also want ZOS to actively take ownership of this and not dob it off to self-interested third parties. The idea that someone else can record my game data without my permission and then post it to an external site to which I do not have any access is abhorrent. It is interesting that ZOS has a policy of no naming and shaming on the forums, but seem quite happy to export all that to for profit third party sites.

It is super valuable for me to know as much about my performance as possible. However, the ONLY point of knowing about someone else’s performance without their consent that I can see is to shame and humiliate them.

FierceSam

templesus wrote: »

When i was in high school, our coaches used to absolutely rip into us in front of the entire team watching film. To think people are afraid of what may happen to them over a screen, is to put bluntly, extremely alarming mental health wise.

This is actually a brilliant example of why such invasive tools can be bad. It’s called bullying. It’s an abusive behaviour of a powerful person (the coach) towards those he is supposed to be nurturing. It’s not big, it’s not clever, it’s not even a very effective coaching technique (although it plays well in the media) because it doesn’t often work. Because humiliation is not a good motivator.

Despite this, the central issue here is still one of consent. If I am happy to give my coach permission to use my data (and they can use it in a productive way), great. But I should be the one making that decision. And that’s not how this tool works at present.

Thicclady

templesus wrote: »

Thicclady wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

They need a full and complete opt-out. No recording unless everyone agrees.

There are four really good discussions on what people think of this and whether ZOS allowing this is against certain privacy laws in certain countries.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468928/eso-logs-consent-is-not-gdpr-compliant-very-promising/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468778/encounter-logger-should-default-be-anonymous-currently-is-not/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467949/encounter-logging/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468224/eso-logs-invasive-or-useful/p1


As a result of these discussions, this was posted.

ZOS_BobbyWeir wrote: »

Hey everyone! Based on your feedback, we are changing the default value for the Anonymous setting to "On". This means your character name and UserID will not be included in an encounter log unless you change the setting. This change will not be in the upcoming PTS build but expect to see it in one of the following ones.

A minor detail that is specific to PTS - when this change hits PTS, your setting will flip. Once live though, everyone will be set to "On".

If you are anonymous, the log data is not associated with your character name or @ name and is no longer "personal data". It only becomes "personal data" when it can be associated with your personal information.

The armchair GDPR lawyering is hilarious.

Also, "four really good discussions" ... LOL! The only "good discussion" was related to setting the log to anonymous by default. Everything else is the same 6 people circle-jerking the same ridiculous nonsense. And now they're shambling over to this thread too.

"We already have real-time DPS sharing via CMX + Hodor Reflexes. That ship has sailed."

Your the one whos circle jerking same thing, I already said that your argument is invalid. Just because something exists, doesnt mean its ok to do it by ZoS officially especially this way.

Also one point here is (saying it again because you dont seem to read) that even data is anonymous, it becomes non anonymous when it can be used to figure out who is in question.

Please do not post to this thread anymore (or internet for that matter), its embarassing to watch your "lol":s.

I would be remiss if I did not say that it is indeed the same people who are against the tool all commenting and posting discussions. It is clear a select group of people are afraid of being exposed over a screen, and thus are voicing against the tool.

In my honest, educated opinion, people need to grow thicker skin and stop worrying about numbers over a video game.is to put bluntly, extremely alarming mental health wise.

Reading your comments, your education indeed stopped at high school physical education level. Of course it is the same people posting one opinion, who else would it be, this is small community.

You seem to worry about pixels to an extend that you have your pixel achievements written in your signature, not to mention achievements that took certainly thousands of playing hours to achieve for you. And you are the 0.1 percentage of this game who does content like that. I don't get people like you, I suggested MANY times that raid leader could turn on the logging in your friendly raid group if people want, and you against that. Conclusion: You just wanna stalk other peoples performances, or/and show off youself, that is also sign of narcissist if talking about mental health issues.

WrathOfInnos

FierceSam wrote: »

It is super valuable for me to know as much about my performance as possible. However, the ONLY point of knowing about someone else’s performance without their consent that I can see is to shame and humiliate them.

No, there are many reasons why we need to see the whole group’s data, and none of them are shame and humiliation.

For example, say you had low damage on a particular boss that you usually do well on. Maybe you just messed up your rotation, but there could be more going on. Possibly a Templar forgot to cast Power if the Light for Minor Breach and Fracture. Or there was no Elemental Drain applied. Maybe Alkosh debuff was missing, in which case you’d want to then ask was the tank not wearing it, or were other players not providing synergies.

There are many reasons why seeing more than your own performance is necessary. Everything is intertwined in trials groups, and even dungeons to a lesser extent. The current anonymous system works in that it cannot be used to post data shaming a specific individual. If the system went further than that, and actually hid actions of every anonymous player, we would be losing important pieces in the puzzle of understanding fight data.

kathandira

Will this feature be available for Console players?

Sanctuary_Reaper

This is all this extension will add to the game.

Nebthet78

@ZOS_BobbyWeir

Thank you for making it so Anonymous is the default for this. However, many feel there still needs to be a complete Opt-Out of having their data recorded all together.

This is essentially a Third Party tool, run on a Third Party website. It is not essential to the game play of ESO at all. There are many casuals and middle tiered players who don't want any part of this tool and don't want to be forced to participate in it. They feel this will further divide and toxify the ESO community. That toxicity can clearly be seen in a number of posts in several of the threads against this tool.

End game raiders will argue it is an essential tool for them to get better. That's fine... They all can opt in to using it then. They are of groups who typically don't include individuals who don't do what they want anyways. If someone in your group doesn't want to use the tool or want their information recorded, then don't run with them.

But forcing others to participate is fundamentally wrong. No matter the pure intentions of the program. Especially since this program records players whom are not even grouped with others, but in the general area.

The recording options need to be made so you can only record your own data when playing solo. It doesn't pick up other's data. When you are in a group, it only records the data of the other members of your group who allow it. If someone opts-out of being recorded who is in a group, then it should only record your own personal data or none at all.

I really think you need to take the time to address all the concerns from the community and spend the actual time to create the needed access walls to recording of players information. I don't want a third party website to have any information I do in this game without my permission and expressed consent and I don't give it and I'll never give it.

I'm not saying the End Game people can't have the tool they feel they need to get better, but a few of us are stating they don't have the automatic right to our in game data without our meaningful consent and a way to prevent any one from having our data that we don't want to have it.

If the End Game Community cannot work around that, then they want this tool for more nefarious reasons than actually improving their own game play.

7788b14_ESO

I thought logs encouraged cookie cutter builds. Allowing people to find op builds faster and copy them. Leading to faster nerfs in the long run.

LiquidPony

Nebthet78 wrote: »

However, many feel there still needs to be a complete Opt-Out of having their data recorded all together.

They feel this will further divide and toxify the ESO community. That toxicity can clearly be seen in a number of posts in several of the threads against this tool.

I'm not saying the End Game people can't have the tool they feel they need to get better ...

Right. This is all about feelings.

But don't project that onto the other side of the discussion. The people who like the Encounter Log as-is are already using it, and its utility is an objective fact that has nothing to do with feelings.

But that's the fundamental divide in this discussion. One side feels like Encounter Logs violate their privacy, even if they're anonymous. One side feels like Encounter Logs are going to "toxify" ESO with zero proof that such a thing will actually happen, because of course that can't be proved.

Here's an idea: let's see how it plays out as-is with everyone defaulting to anonymous, and if we do find that players are having their "privacy" violated despite being anonymous, we can talk about changing it. Or if we do find that the game gets more toxic, then we can talk about changing it.

Until then, it's a pointless discussion, because it isn't about reasons, it's about feelings. And you can't reason people out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

MartiniDaniels

Damn, people still thinking that somebody will load those logs after each boss in vEH1 to harass them afterwards ><

Letho2469

There is only one single reason why ppl can be against this feature, that greatly helps improving their gameplay: lazyness and selfishness. Delicious, how those ppl cry out in fear, as your days of succulent leecherino have finally come to an END!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom This is probably the best feature you have ever implemented into this game

Thicclady

Letho2469 wrote: »

There is only one single reason why ppl can be against this feature, that greatly helps improving their gameplay: lazyness and selfishness. Delicious, how those ppl cry out in fear, as your days of succulent leecherino have finally come to an END!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom This is probably the best feature you have ever implemented into this game

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom This is probably the worst feature you have ever implemented into this game

Flares

Best feature in ESO, will most likely quit if removed.

Propagate

Maybe all the people complaining about ESO logs can start a guild called "RPers against ESO logs". You can all play together in your non toxic environment while you struggle through nAA on your hybrid builds.

CMX already tells me that your dps is rubbish when I am pulling 40% dps on my healer. Why would ESO logs make difference? I still don't vote to kick because no one cares about normal dungeons and this tool isn't for you.

ESO logs will help progression groups seeing what's killing the group, dps, who is rezzing etc. stop trying to ruin one of the best features in the game.

Nebthet78

Propagate wrote: »

Maybe all the people complaining about ESO logs can start a guild called "RPers against ESO logs". You can all play together in your non toxic environment while you struggle through nAA on your hybrid builds.

CMX already tells me that your dps is rubbish when I am pulling 40% dps on my healer. Why would ESO logs make difference? I still don't vote to kick because no one cares about normal dungeons and this tool isn't for you.

ESO logs will help progression groups seeing what's killing the group, dps, who is rezzing etc. stop trying to ruin one of the best features in the game.

So keep up with the rude comments guys. You're proving exactly why some people think it will encourage more toxicity within the community. It proves more and more that it should be an OPT-IN only for any recording to be done.

PS: ESOLOGS is not a feature "in the game". It's a website outside the game, by a third party. Big difference. If this was being done in-house by ZOS, I think there would be fewer issues, but it isn't.

templesus

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Propagate wrote: »

Maybe all the people complaining about ESO logs can start a guild called "RPers against ESO logs". You can all play together in your non toxic environment while you struggle through nAA on your hybrid builds.

CMX already tells me that your dps is rubbish when I am pulling 40% dps on my healer. Why would ESO logs make difference? I still don't vote to kick because no one cares about normal dungeons and this tool isn't for you.

ESO logs will help progression groups seeing what's killing the group, dps, who is rezzing etc. stop trying to ruin one of the best features in the game.

So keep up with the rude comments guys. You're proving exactly why some people think it will encourage more toxicity within the community. It proves more and more that it should be an OPT-IN only for any recording to be done.

PS: ESOLOGS is not a feature "in the game". It's a website outside the game, by a third party. Big difference. If this was being done in-house by ZOS, I think there would be fewer issues, but it isn't.

There is no such thing as "truth" or "lies" in this world; there never has been. There are only plain, hard facts. And yet, all beings who exist in this world acknowledge only those "facts" that are convenient to them, and take them to be the "truth". They do so because they know no other way of living. However, for those powerless beings who comprise the majority of this world's population, inconvenient facts that affirm their very existence, are their only truth.
-Aizen

Ashtaris

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Let me paint a picture for you:
At the moment if you pug even a normal dungeon via group finder, even a tiny thing you may do wrong (or may not lol) will be an argument to vote - kick you out of the dungeon. Yes - vote - kick is being abused as hell.

Now ZOS, you are giving a tool that I understand can help players to get better and stuff, but I also can see the other side of the coin. It will be also used as an argument to kick some one out of dungeon... because he / she is not using certain set / build / skill etc. What is even worse, it may lead to creation of an add-on that will do it automatically for you.

I have see what even a tiny bit of player statistic information and collecting those information can do. It is in fact too familiar. In the other mmo game called "World Of Tanks" (granted it is a different genre but it also has addon / mods support), the developers, at some point decided to keep all player stats on a 3rd party website. This lead to creation of an "XVM" mod (aka "extended visualization" mod). Up to this date this mod has done more harm than good to game and divided the playerbase.

If you are not familiar with this:

Basically it is a PvP game where you drive a tank in a team based 15 vs 15 (or 7 vs 7) battle. The whole problem is that with XVM mod you have access to player's statistic during battle, based on their account history & achievement (because at some point the devs of the game decided to keep all player stats on a 3rd party website.

"Normal" game:


Game with XVM:


As you can see, players were able to have access to overall global player statistics during battle, described by additional colours, values, % (Win ratio, average dmg dealt, average dmg blocked, number of played battles, number of average kills per match, overall player "skill" level etc. and the list goes on).

Note - those are not data captured "live" or "on the fly" but rather based on the account's history. This lead to a situation where ppl were actually quitting the matches right at the beginning because they knew they will be facing much more skilled players. Also they knew which players to focus on early on because they were much greater threat than the others. This was not intended by the devs as they were not thinking ahead "what can happen" in the future, back when they made their decision on player statistics.

I don't want ESO to follow this path.

Encounter logs are not analyzed in real time, so I don't know how a group could kick you from a dungeon based on data that is only analyzed after the fact. And I fail to see how it could be used in a add-on when it's probably not going to be supported in the API as that was removed sometime ago. ZOS has already come out and stated that our data is going to be anonymous by default, so I think you are fairly safe. I'm hoping that most people will give the new ESO logging a fair evaluation, not one based on rumors or misinformation. Lets give it a bit of time to see how it shakes out before we declare the sky is falling. I know I don't do the greatest DPS, but it is my hope that this tool will help improve my builds and help others evaluate what I can improve as well.

Propagate

Nebthet78 wrote: »

So keep up with the rude comments guys. You're proving exactly why some people think it will encourage more toxicity within the community. It proves more and more that it should be an OPT-IN only for any recording to be done.

PS: ESOLOGS is not a feature "in the game". It's a website outside the game, by a third party. Big difference. If this was being done in-house by ZOS, I think there would be fewer issues, but it isn't.

If you read what I said, I can tell already when people don't pull high dps in dungeons through cmx but never vote kick because I don't care. If I sign up through group finder I know the skill level will vary. If I care about dungeons I will do it with friends.

As someone who will use ESO logs extensively on live, in trials you are working with 11 people you should be doing the best you can and always looking to improve ESO logs is an amazing tool for that. If you are so opposed to it my comment about the guild stands! Get like minded people together who don't want to use it and run together. By the melt down on the forums you shouldn't have any issue getting like minded people.

idk

templesus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Thicclady wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

They need a full and complete opt-out. No recording unless everyone agrees.

There are four really good discussions on what people think of this and whether ZOS allowing this is against certain privacy laws in certain countries.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468928/eso-logs-consent-is-not-gdpr-compliant-very-promising/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468778/encounter-logger-should-default-be-anonymous-currently-is-not/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467949/encounter-logging/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468224/eso-logs-invasive-or-useful/p1


As a result of these discussions, this was posted.

ZOS_BobbyWeir wrote: »

Hey everyone! Based on your feedback, we are changing the default value for the Anonymous setting to "On". This means your character name and UserID will not be included in an encounter log unless you change the setting. This change will not be in the upcoming PTS build but expect to see it in one of the following ones.

A minor detail that is specific to PTS - when this change hits PTS, your setting will flip. Once live though, everyone will be set to "On".

If you are anonymous, the log data is not associated with your character name or @ name and is no longer "personal data". It only becomes "personal data" when it can be associated with your personal information.

The armchair GDPR lawyering is hilarious.

Also, "four really good discussions" ... LOL! The only "good discussion" was related to setting the log to anonymous by default. Everything else is the same 6 people circle-jerking the same ridiculous nonsense. And now they're shambling over to this thread too.

"We already have real-time DPS sharing via CMX + Hodor Reflexes. That ship has sailed."

Your the one whos circle jerking same thing, I already said that your argument is invalid. Just because something exists, doesnt mean its ok to do it by ZoS officially especially this way.

Also one point here is (saying it again because you dont seem to read) that even data is anonymous, it becomes non anonymous when it can be used to figure out who is in question.

Please do not post to this thread anymore (or internet for that matter), its embarassing to watch your "lol":s.

I would be remiss if I did not say that it is indeed the same people who are against the tool all commenting and posting discussions. It is clear a select group of people are afraid of being exposed over a screen, and thus are voicing against the tool.

Umm, no. This statement above is nothing more that an attempt to discredit those who disagree merely because they disagree. It provides nothing of substance or value to this discussion and merely aims to discredit others with baseless statements.

I raid with core teams and guilds where we constantly have to demonstrate we can perform to the levels expected by sharing our dps. However, I am thoughtful enough, and not so self centered to realize not everyone that plays ESO (probably a majority) are interested in sharing their dps and have no reason to want to.

It has also been brought to our attention via actual testing that this tool will capture other players actions even if they are not grouped with you, but happen to be nearby.

When this was announced it was clear there was a very lazy approach to this on the part of Zos and how they the client. It could have very easily been a system that required full opt in for information to be gathered and that is something that exists in other games and would have been easy for raid teams to manage. Instead we have the more indolent design.

My comments do not reflect on the third party that designed the website, but only on the leadership with Zos.

No, it shouldn’t be full opt in. There is no instance in this game where someone else should be able to physically prevent me from improving my own gameplay, period. Kihra already stated it’s all or none, so a full opt out system would mean no data could be collected at all, even if I want to further myself. I still have not seen a single tangible argument for why it should be opt in, privacy and not wanting to share ones DPS are not backable arguments as you have no claim to your character data, ZOS does, you agreed to it in the TOC.

The current system is fine. Default set to anonymous, let’s keep it that way. Thanks for your hard work on the tool again. @ZOS_BobbyWeir

You are rather wrong wrong. A full opt in of 100% of everyone in the game would not be required if Zos had set things up on their end the right way. Zos took a lazy approach so it is here.

If done right we could log our own individual parses regardless of being grouped or solo and be able to upload and analyze that information all day long. The personal parse would log and display all the information necessary to analyze our parse including all buffs applied to use by any source, but nothing from other sources.

Further, that same system would permit raid groups to all join and log the group so the raid group could analyze their joint efforts. All this without interfering with your personal logging.

The fact is Zos' logging system will even collect data from players that just happen to be nearby and not grouped with you. That is how poorly they set this up. This has been tested on the PTS. Pitiful.

You see I have played a lesser game that had a better design to their parsing system. Anyone could collect their own parse and upload the data to see it. What was also great was the same system allows a raid group to join together and collect a group parse.

So the people who have been selling you on the idea that this full opt in is required is feeding you and everyone else a line of bull. The only reason ESO's new system has to gather everyone's information is because Zos was down right lazy in how they approached this. As a result you are getting a second rate system. I laugh at how Zos is selling us their indolent work and everyone is so excited about this. It is a sad laugh.

This logging system could have been so much better.

Tannus15

I'm super, SUPER excited about this.
I'm an officer in a progression guild and it's soooo hard to pin point who needs help and what that help is.
The only "real" data we can get is dps parses, but it's such a small part of the picture.

Now we can see important things like putting down AOE dots before mechanics hit which cause people to move. We can see who is ressing and who is just parsing. We can see why people who are on top of the death tally are dying more than everyone else. We can see if the new healer is providing enough support or purges or heals and when.

This is super awesome, I have a huge nerd *** for all this data we can analyse after a trial and give as feedback to the rest of the guild for the next run.

Anhedonie

Combat log is good for coordinated groups.

It will make pve ultra-toxic for all non-coordinated groups though. I'm not going to do a single trial with random people after that.

templesus

idk wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Thicclady wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

They need a full and complete opt-out. No recording unless everyone agrees.

There are four really good discussions on what people think of this and whether ZOS allowing this is against certain privacy laws in certain countries.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468928/eso-logs-consent-is-not-gdpr-compliant-very-promising/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468778/encounter-logger-should-default-be-anonymous-currently-is-not/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467949/encounter-logging/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468224/eso-logs-invasive-or-useful/p1


As a result of these discussions, this was posted.

ZOS_BobbyWeir wrote: »

Hey everyone! Based on your feedback, we are changing the default value for the Anonymous setting to "On". This means your character name and UserID will not be included in an encounter log unless you change the setting. This change will not be in the upcoming PTS build but expect to see it in one of the following ones.

A minor detail that is specific to PTS - when this change hits PTS, your setting will flip. Once live though, everyone will be set to "On".

If you are anonymous, the log data is not associated with your character name or @ name and is no longer "personal data". It only becomes "personal data" when it can be associated with your personal information.

The armchair GDPR lawyering is hilarious.

Also, "four really good discussions" ... LOL! The only "good discussion" was related to setting the log to anonymous by default. Everything else is the same 6 people circle-jerking the same ridiculous nonsense. And now they're shambling over to this thread too.

"We already have real-time DPS sharing via CMX + Hodor Reflexes. That ship has sailed."

Your the one whos circle jerking same thing, I already said that your argument is invalid. Just because something exists, doesnt mean its ok to do it by ZoS officially especially this way.

Also one point here is (saying it again because you dont seem to read) that even data is anonymous, it becomes non anonymous when it can be used to figure out who is in question.

Please do not post to this thread anymore (or internet for that matter), its embarassing to watch your "lol":s.

I would be remiss if I did not say that it is indeed the same people who are against the tool all commenting and posting discussions. It is clear a select group of people are afraid of being exposed over a screen, and thus are voicing against the tool.

Umm, no. This statement above is nothing more that an attempt to discredit those who disagree merely because they disagree. It provides nothing of substance or value to this discussion and merely aims to discredit others with baseless statements.

I raid with core teams and guilds where we constantly have to demonstrate we can perform to the levels expected by sharing our dps. However, I am thoughtful enough, and not so self centered to realize not everyone that plays ESO (probably a majority) are interested in sharing their dps and have no reason to want to.

It has also been brought to our attention via actual testing that this tool will capture other players actions even if they are not grouped with you, but happen to be nearby.

When this was announced it was clear there was a very lazy approach to this on the part of Zos and how they the client. It could have very easily been a system that required full opt in for information to be gathered and that is something that exists in other games and would have been easy for raid teams to manage. Instead we have the more indolent design.

My comments do not reflect on the third party that designed the website, but only on the leadership with Zos.

No, it shouldn’t be full opt in. There is no instance in this game where someone else should be able to physically prevent me from improving my own gameplay, period. Kihra already stated it’s all or none, so a full opt out system would mean no data could be collected at all, even if I want to further myself. I still have not seen a single tangible argument for why it should be opt in, privacy and not wanting to share ones DPS are not backable arguments as you have no claim to your character data, ZOS does, you agreed to it in the TOC.

The current system is fine. Default set to anonymous, let’s keep it that way. Thanks for your hard work on the tool again. @ZOS_BobbyWeir

You are rather wrong wrong. A full opt in of 100% of everyone in the game would not be required if Zos had set things up on their end the right way. Zos took a lazy approach so it is here.

If done right we could log our own individual parses regardless of being grouped or solo and be able to upload and analyze that information all day long. The personal parse would log and display all the information necessary to analyze our parse including all buffs applied to use by any source, but nothing from other sources.

Further, that same system would permit raid groups to all join and log the group so the raid group could analyze their joint efforts. All this without interfering with your personal logging.

The fact is Zos' logging system will even collect data from players that just happen to be nearby and not grouped with you. That is how poorly they set this up. This has been tested on the PTS. Pitiful.

You see I have played a lesser game that had a better design to their parsing system. Anyone could collect their own parse and upload the data to see it. What was also great was the same system allows a raid group to join together and collect a group parse.

So the people who have been selling you on the idea that this full opt in is required is feeding you and everyone else a line of bull. The only reason ESO's new system has to gather everyone's information is because Zos was down right lazy in how they approached this. As a result you are getting a second rate system. I laugh at how Zos is selling us their indolent work and everyone is so excited about this. It is a sad laugh.

This logging system could have been so much better.

If I could get my results even if group members opted out, I would be fine with that.

However it has been stated this is not the case, thus that is meaningless and my reasoning holds true.

idk

templesus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Thicclady wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

They need a full and complete opt-out. No recording unless everyone agrees.

There are four really good discussions on what people think of this and whether ZOS allowing this is against certain privacy laws in certain countries.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468928/eso-logs-consent-is-not-gdpr-compliant-very-promising/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468778/encounter-logger-should-default-be-anonymous-currently-is-not/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467949/encounter-logging/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468224/eso-logs-invasive-or-useful/p1


As a result of these discussions, this was posted.

ZOS_BobbyWeir wrote: »

Hey everyone! Based on your feedback, we are changing the default value for the Anonymous setting to "On". This means your character name and UserID will not be included in an encounter log unless you change the setting. This change will not be in the upcoming PTS build but expect to see it in one of the following ones.

A minor detail that is specific to PTS - when this change hits PTS, your setting will flip. Once live though, everyone will be set to "On".

If you are anonymous, the log data is not associated with your character name or @ name and is no longer "personal data". It only becomes "personal data" when it can be associated with your personal information.

The armchair GDPR lawyering is hilarious.

Also, "four really good discussions" ... LOL! The only "good discussion" was related to setting the log to anonymous by default. Everything else is the same 6 people circle-jerking the same ridiculous nonsense. And now they're shambling over to this thread too.

"We already have real-time DPS sharing via CMX + Hodor Reflexes. That ship has sailed."

Your the one whos circle jerking same thing, I already said that your argument is invalid. Just because something exists, doesnt mean its ok to do it by ZoS officially especially this way.

Also one point here is (saying it again because you dont seem to read) that even data is anonymous, it becomes non anonymous when it can be used to figure out who is in question.

Please do not post to this thread anymore (or internet for that matter), its embarassing to watch your "lol":s.

I would be remiss if I did not say that it is indeed the same people who are against the tool all commenting and posting discussions. It is clear a select group of people are afraid of being exposed over a screen, and thus are voicing against the tool.

Umm, no. This statement above is nothing more that an attempt to discredit those who disagree merely because they disagree. It provides nothing of substance or value to this discussion and merely aims to discredit others with baseless statements.

I raid with core teams and guilds where we constantly have to demonstrate we can perform to the levels expected by sharing our dps. However, I am thoughtful enough, and not so self centered to realize not everyone that plays ESO (probably a majority) are interested in sharing their dps and have no reason to want to.

It has also been brought to our attention via actual testing that this tool will capture other players actions even if they are not grouped with you, but happen to be nearby.

When this was announced it was clear there was a very lazy approach to this on the part of Zos and how they the client. It could have very easily been a system that required full opt in for information to be gathered and that is something that exists in other games and would have been easy for raid teams to manage. Instead we have the more indolent design.

My comments do not reflect on the third party that designed the website, but only on the leadership with Zos.

No, it shouldn’t be full opt in. There is no instance in this game where someone else should be able to physically prevent me from improving my own gameplay, period. Kihra already stated it’s all or none, so a full opt out system would mean no data could be collected at all, even if I want to further myself. I still have not seen a single tangible argument for why it should be opt in, privacy and not wanting to share ones DPS are not backable arguments as you have no claim to your character data, ZOS does, you agreed to it in the TOC.

The current system is fine. Default set to anonymous, let’s keep it that way. Thanks for your hard work on the tool again. @ZOS_BobbyWeir

You are rather wrong wrong. A full opt in of 100% of everyone in the game would not be required if Zos had set things up on their end the right way. Zos took a lazy approach so it is here.

If done right we could log our own individual parses regardless of being grouped or solo and be able to upload and analyze that information all day long. The personal parse would log and display all the information necessary to analyze our parse including all buffs applied to use by any source, but nothing from other sources.

Further, that same system would permit raid groups to all join and log the group so the raid group could analyze their joint efforts. All this without interfering with your personal logging.

The fact is Zos' logging system will even collect data from players that just happen to be nearby and not grouped with you. That is how poorly they set this up. This has been tested on the PTS. Pitiful.

You see I have played a lesser game that had a better design to their parsing system. Anyone could collect their own parse and upload the data to see it. What was also great was the same system allows a raid group to join together and collect a group parse.

So the people who have been selling you on the idea that this full opt in is required is feeding you and everyone else a line of bull. The only reason ESO's new system has to gather everyone's information is because Zos was down right lazy in how they approached this. As a result you are getting a second rate system. I laugh at how Zos is selling us their indolent work and everyone is so excited about this. It is a sad laugh.

This logging system could have been so much better.

If I could get my results even if group members opted out, I would be fine with that.

However it has been stated this is not the case, thus that is meaningless and my reasoning holds true.

Yes, it has been stated it is the case. The web site developer stated that but that is merely due to design. They are working with how Zos has setup for the information to be saved. This is because of buff information coming from other players. However, I have seen it in another game where it still sees buffs applied, because they are applied to you, and yet is capable of parsing a single player who choses to log for themselves. This same system has means for group parsing, which is the only reason Zos is having this added.

Further, the new ESO system is less favorable for solo parsing, which is what you were asking for. A test on the PTS captured data from other players in the area even though the player what was logging their own activity was not grouped with them. This is why Zos is changing the "anonymous default setting to on. Their original plans were to force everyone to opt in to sharing their names with anyone who chose to log.

So this system is less favorable to someone who wants to solo parse. In a guild home with multiple test dummies and multiple players using them at the same time you will get everyone's data if you log.

I am not against having the ability to log what a group does. It is merely that I know this could have been so much better that it will be. Unfortunately Zos and some leaders of the raiding community have sold so many on the idea that this is a great system even though it is second rate due to laziness on the part of Zos.

ManwithBeard9

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Propagate wrote: »

Maybe all the people complaining about ESO logs can start a guild called "RPers against ESO logs". You can all play together in your non toxic environment while you struggle through nAA on your hybrid builds.

CMX already tells me that your dps is rubbish when I am pulling 40% dps on my healer. Why would ESO logs make difference? I still don't vote to kick because no one cares about normal dungeons and this tool isn't for you.

ESO logs will help progression groups seeing what's killing the group, dps, who is rezzing etc. stop trying to ruin one of the best features in the game.

So keep up with the rude comments guys. You're proving exactly why some people think it will encourage more toxicity within the community. It proves more and more that it should be an OPT-IN only for any recording to be done.

PS: ESOLOGS is not a feature "in the game". It's a website outside the game, by a third party. Big difference. If this was being done in-house by ZOS, I think there would be fewer issues, but it isn't.

You clearly have no idea how this works. The only thing that isnt ZOS's is the website. This was something ZOS has had in game for years. No one had access to it after they closed it off. The website is just to host the logs. A host that already has had success hosting logs for other games. There is no opt out because it break ALL the combat data collected because of how ZOS developed their system. If any combat data is removed from the log it becomes unreadable.

Chivana

I'm pretty sure, a full opt-out would be possible very quickly, if everybody cancelled their Elsweyr preorder because of the forced logging. I did and got my money back.

LiquidPony

Chivana wrote: »

I'm pretty sure, a full opt-out would be possible very quickly, if everybody cancelled their Elsweyr preorder because of the forced logging. I did and got my money back.

Can I have your stuff?

Letho2469

It proves more and more that it should be an OPT-IN only for any recording to be done.

I definetely second this, forced logging is not nice, although it will not be nearly as bad as you guys expect it to be. Do you really think that anybody will take the effort of uploading logs for pug groups - for DUNGEONS? Nope, not gonna happen. This tool is for progression guilds only and those willing to enhance. Those communities are getting a tool that helps them to improve and pick out the lazy and selfish "black sheeps". Of course those freeriders complain, as even badies desire endgame loot and prestigous titles and now they are forced to work for it. Make this tool fully opt-in, there is absolutely no point against that. But do not even think of touching it in vet trial environments!

In fact this tool will not only not increase toxicity in trial environments, but actually REDUCE it! Raiders finally get protection against bad raid leaders who think of themselves as the incarnation of whisdom, awareness and skill. Logs do not have interests, they do not lie, they do not miss anything, they just provide plain facts. So no subjective perception anymore.

sneakymitchell

In the end you try to al least succeeded in the group. Even though the dps is low it’s depending on how they weave. Set bonuses give out very small % too each other on which is the strongest. So in the end it’s all about weaving.