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Elder Scrolls online is almost entirely an evil game
-
tinythinker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
And/or anthropology, which (at least in the U.S. version) shares borders and some territory with sociology, history, economics, linguistics, psychology, and biologyIn a tangentially related note to anyone reading: sociology is an amazingly intriguing science and, if you haven't finished/gone to college yet and plan to attend, you should absolutely at least take the intro course as one of your electives. If you don't know what sociology is, I urge you to consider looking into it.
❤Experienced, new, returner?❤ Help keep ESO's community strong ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ -- share what you love about the game, offer constructive feedback, and make friends.ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
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Ectheliontnacil✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ectheliontnacil wrote: »Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.
ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.
It's quite the opposite actually, but I remember being an edgy teenager so I'll forgive this transgression.
Thank you for the laugh, my 55 years on this rock with 6 years in the military and having raised three successful children inform me otherwise.
Must have been a hell of a dad haha.
Teacher: Your son got into a fight, you should discourage this behaviour.
This guy: Should I teach my son to deny the fact that he is inherently evil???
Also being born bad and staying that way for the rest of your life is a claim you can in no way back up.
You are not following the concept. Try to define good first, it really is not so easy. Unless you can claim anyone is perfectly good you will find yourself struggling to argue against my position
Have you known anyone to never do wrong? To use a cliche, I never saw a child taught to lie but all I have known had to be taught not to lie.
Lol you're backtracking now though. There's a big difference between being bad and not being perfectly good. This is your original statement.Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.
You also claim that we all remain mostly bad, even after being taught "how to be good". Which just about falls short of a blatant lie. Society would have crumbled long ago if this truly was the case.
Generally bad or wicked people are that way because of severe trauma or lack of empathy due to psychological disorders (and if you lack empathy it's impossible to be evil, as you won't perceive your actions as being evil).
I would argue that humans are inherently good. Weak, flawed and selfish perhaps. But I don't believe there is an innate human desire to harm others. And I think I'm able to defend this position better than you are able to defend yours.
Edited by Ectheliontnacil on April 30, 2019 11:30PM3 -
The_Lex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ectheliontnacil wrote: »Ectheliontnacil wrote: »Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.
ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.
It's quite the opposite actually, but I remember being an edgy teenager so I'll forgive this transgression.
Thank you for the laugh, my 55 years on this rock with 6 years in the military and having raised three successful children inform me otherwise.
Must have been a hell of a dad haha.
Teacher: Your son got into a fight, you should discourage this behaviour.
This guy: Should I teach my son to deny the fact that he is inherently evil???
Also being born bad and staying that way for the rest of your life is a claim you can in no way back up.
You are not following the concept. Try to define good first, it really is not so easy. Unless you can claim anyone is perfectly good you will find yourself struggling to argue against my position
Have you known anyone to never do wrong? To use a cliche, I never saw a child taught to lie but all I have known had to be taught not to lie.
Lol you're backtracking now though. There's a big difference between being bad and being perfectly good. This is your original statement.Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.
You also claim that we all remain mostly bad, even after being taught "how to be good". Which just about falls short of a blatant lie. Society would have crumbled long ago if this truly was the case.
Generally bad or wicked people are that way because of severe trauma or lack of empathy due to psychological disorders (and if you lack empathy it's impossible to be evil, as you won't perceive your actions as being evil).
I would argue that humans are inherently good. Weak, flawed and selfish perhaps. But I don't believe there is an innate human desire to harm others. And I think I'm able to defend this position better than you are able to defend yours.
Of course, there is a difference between "being good" (at the core of who you are) and "acting good" (as a construct of our outward behavior). But that's the logical side of me wrapping my head around this.
polar opposites vs logical opposites
Edited by The_Lex on April 30, 2019 7:06PM0 -
tinythinker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »this sounds...deep...
Helm's Deep❤Experienced, new, returner?❤ Help keep ESO's community strong ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ -- share what you love about the game, offer constructive feedback, and make friends.ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
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Support Mudcrab Mode for ESO (\/)!_!(\/) - part joke, part serious, all glorious! You butter be ready for this3 -
Grandma✭✭✭✭✭i'm sure it's been stated already, but when Bethesda made the first Elder scrolls game, they called it Arena because it was originally designed to be a combat arena style game. However, they changed and went in an entirely new direction - open world RPG - but this was after the merchandising was done. So they had to stick with Arena. they wrote it off as Tamriel (or nirn) being the Arena of life, where people are pitted against each other in pointless strife, struggle, and violence for the amusement and interest of the greater players who watch (aedra and daedra). There's a lot of interesting commentary in this dynamic, and I think ESO taps into it rather well for as well as a large scale MMO can tap into an open world RPG design.GH / 3/04/2021 / Elemental Catalyst Necromancer1 -
Riejael✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
If you wanted to side with the Covenant, you had the option to do so at character creation. Deciding to do so at Davon's Watch is ultimately self-destructive to the Covenant.
You'd squash a minor settlement and give the Covenant a foothold in Morrowind, but a poor one, because they'd need to run their supply lines from Northpoint (which is under enemy control) across the coast of Skyrim, past Solitude, Dawnstar, Winterhold, Blacklight, Ebonheart and Vivec. And, drops them into a heavily fortified part of Morrowind (one of the provinces Tiber Septum wouldn't be able to secure with military force.)
All the while, the Covenant is being torn apart back in High Rock.
The Covenant doesn't need another soldier at Davon's Watch, they need a hero back in Daggerfall.
If you want to side with the Covenant, Emeric needs you putting out fires in Glenumbra.
What if I just want to see Davon's Watch burn?
It seems weird to me that First Generation MMORPGs let you do this, but current gen does not.
I don't care if the DC have a weak footing. I don't care how it effects Morrowind or whatever. The point is, the choice in the moment should be mine to make, and I deal with the consequences or benefits after the fact.
I don't understand why I even have to explain this.
1 -
tinythinker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
If you wanted to side with the Covenant, you had the option to do so at character creation. Deciding to do so at Davon's Watch is ultimately self-destructive to the Covenant.
You'd squash a minor settlement and give the Covenant a foothold in Morrowind, but a poor one, because they'd need to run their supply lines from Northpoint (which is under enemy control) across the coast of Skyrim, past Solitude, Dawnstar, Winterhold, Blacklight, Ebonheart and Vivec. And, drops them into a heavily fortified part of Morrowind (one of the provinces Tiber Septum wouldn't be able to secure with military force.)
All the while, the Covenant is being torn apart back in High Rock.
The Covenant doesn't need another soldier at Davon's Watch, they need a hero back in Daggerfall.
If you want to side with the Covenant, Emeric needs you putting out fires in Glenumbra.
What if I just want to see Davon's Watch burn?
Do the Bleakrock quests up to the point where Covenant forces are burning the village. Skip Bal Foyen. Next, go to Davon's Watch and talk to Holgunn to start (but don't finish) the quest "Legacy of the Ancestors".
Now, they are burning Bleakrock, burning and terrorizing Bal Foyen, and actively firing their siege weapons into Davon's Watch. You can do the sidequests if you like in Stonefalls and even start the new quest story for the next zone.
The Daggers will be forever destroying the major port city of Stonefalls and the nearby island and strip of land.❤Experienced, new, returner?❤ Help keep ESO's community strong ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ -- share what you love about the game, offer constructive feedback, and make friends.ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Who are you in Tamriel (whether it's just your character's attitude & style or a full backstory)? - Share your Character's Story! ◔ ⌣ ◔
(And let us know 🔷What Kind of Roleplayer You Are🔷 - even if that only extends to choosing your race)
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Support Mudcrab Mode for ESO (\/)!_!(\/) - part joke, part serious, all glorious! You butter be ready for this2 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »All the Good Daedra became the "earth bones" etc
Literally all the Good "God's" are gone
I get your point, but it's not exactly true.
The "good" daedra are Azura, Boethia, and Mephala. Of course, "good" was coined by the Dunmer.
The earth bones were not daedra. The Daedra wanted nothing to do with the creation of the Mundus. In fact, "Daedra" means "not our ancestors." The earth bones (or Ehlnofey) are the Aedra who sacrificed themselves to bring stability to Nirn.
See, there's what I meant to say.
Thanks for clarifying that for me1 -
Rukia541✭✭✭✭✭I find it far more enjoyable than the childish writing in other games.
ESO feels real and I haven't cringed yet so I think they're doing a great job.
You have a point though we should have some good options like opposite of assassinating targets.
Maybe you could act as a guard and catch people committing a crime lol.0 -
reoskit✭✭✭✭✭
✭You have a point though we should have some good options like opposite of assassinating targets.
Maybe you could act as a guard and catch people committing a crime lol.
They looked at bounty hunting when they introduced the Justice system. IIRC it was scrapped because folks were unhappy with the idea of PvP being introduced in PvE.
(inb4 "but dueling" - dueling is opt-in)1 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Shalktonin wrote: »
I am pretty sure you are attempting to use an ad hominen here, that you may be pretty much undermines any points you would hope to make
🤔
doesn't need to make a point kid, you r assertion in the beginning was wrong to begin with.
And tell me how exactly have you come to state with authority my assertion as incorrect? There is literally thousands of years of western philosophy and numerous deep thinkers throughout the ages that support my statement.
Also again with an ad hominin, if you are going to debate try to drop the logical fallacies, they only serve to detract from your argument, does nothing to impugn my character of forum presence.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm sorry, I'm still trying to get over expectation that high elves would be.. good. i mean..... OP... is ESO your first elder scrolls game? are you unfamiliar with the lore and built up expectations based on Tolkien and his fantasy tropes?dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***3 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.
ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.
Close, but not quite. "Good" and "bad", as universal concepts, don't exist. There is no innate good, and there is no innate bad. Proof: differing cultures can (and at times, do, in real life) have entirely opposite notions of what is good and what is bad. The culture that you live in and its mechanics define what is good and what is bad.
People aren't born good or evil in an innate, universal sense. Rather, what people are born as is "entirely selfish" and have to learn empathy - a learned trait, not an innate trait. Whether or not being born as selfish also means you're born as being innately evil or not is entirely based around how your culture defines evil.
(In a tangentially related note to anyone reading: sociology is an amazingly intriguing science and, if you haven't finished/gone to college yet and plan to attend, you should absolutely at least take the intro course. If you don't know what sociology is, I urge you to consider looking into it.)
So you state, you can no more prove via the physical world there is no innate good or bad as I can prove to you there is. That you state it makes your position no more correct than mine when I stated it.
The difference is, I suspect, you do not recognize those are two world views based on presuppositions that are entirely the choice of the individual to accept and neither can claim to be anymore factual than the other.
You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. But I will give you this for thought, how was it so many "good Germans" allowed the concentration camps to exist without any resistance. History has shown that given the choice people will do the wrong thing almost every time, especially when it serves their own self interest. Even in your world employing selfishness as the paradigm most would call that evil.0 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ectheliontnacil wrote: »Ectheliontnacil wrote: »Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.
ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.
It's quite the opposite actually, but I remember being an edgy teenager so I'll forgive this transgression.
Thank you for the laugh, my 55 years on this rock with 6 years in the military and having raised three successful children inform me otherwise.
Must have been a hell of a dad haha.
Teacher: Your son got into a fight, you should discourage this behaviour.
This guy: Should I teach my son to deny the fact that he is inherently evil???
Also being born bad and staying that way for the rest of your life is a claim you can in no way back up.
You are not following the concept. Try to define good first, it really is not so easy. Unless you can claim anyone is perfectly good you will find yourself struggling to argue against my position
Have you known anyone to never do wrong? To use a cliche, I never saw a child taught to lie but all I have known had to be taught not to lie.
Lol you're backtracking now though. There's a big difference between being bad and being perfectly good. This is your original statement.Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.
You also claim that we all remain mostly bad, even after being taught "how to be good". Which just about falls short of a blatant lie. Society would have crumbled long ago if this truly was the case.
Generally bad or wicked people are that way because of severe trauma or lack of empathy due to psychological disorders (and if you lack empathy it's impossible to be evil, as you won't perceive your actions as being evil).
I would argue that humans are inherently good. Weak, flawed and selfish perhaps. But I don't believe there is an innate human desire to harm others. And I think I'm able to defend this position better than you are able to defend yours.
I am not backtracking nor did I try to use the concept of perfectly good to change the debate. I was stating that it is easier to define bad then to define good. Most people would accept that the absence being bad does not make a person good but the absence of doing good can make a person bad. The two are not balanced opposites, I do not subscribe to a ying/yang philosophy.
Also ask yourself why do we need any sort of a civil law force if your supposition is correct about society crumbling? I suggest you brush up on one the primary functions of a society one of which is to create and enforce a set of standards to protect those in it. If what you posit is true we would not need such an enforcement agency would we?Edited by Skwor on April 30, 2019 8:45PM0 -
karthrag_inak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.
Morality, civilization, ethics, and laws, are all human constructs, derived by our primordial ancestors, after millennia of trial and error, through enlightened self interest to facilitate their survival and, more importantly, flourishing.
In other words, we -evolved- the ability to recognize and, usually, embrace these concepts.
Fundamental fact of life.
Edited by karthrag_inak on April 30, 2019 8:48PMPC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions. cp3600
GM of Imperial Gold Reserve trading guild (started in 2017) since 2/2022
Come visit Karth's Glitter Box, Khajiit's home. Fully stocked guild hall done in sleek Khajiit stylings, with Grand Master Stations, Transmute, Scribing, Trial Dummies, etc. Also has 2 full bowling alleys, nightclub, and floating maze over Wrothgar.(Pariah's Pinacle)1 -
tinythinker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You have a point though we should have some good options like opposite of assassinating targets.
Maybe you could act as a guard and catch people committing a crime lol.
They looked at bounty hunting when they introduced the Justice system. IIRC it was scrapped because folks were unhappy with the idea of PvP being introduced in PvE.
(inb4 "but dueling" - dueling is opt-in)
Player bounties also had the potential to be opt-in. But that ship sailed long ago.❤Experienced, new, returner?❤ Help keep ESO's community strong ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ -- share what you love about the game, offer constructive feedback, and make friends.ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Who are you in Tamriel (whether it's just your character's attitude & style or a full backstory)? - Share your Character's Story! ◔ ⌣ ◔
(And let us know 🔷What Kind of Roleplayer You Are🔷 - even if that only extends to choosing your race)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Support Mudcrab Mode for ESO (\/)!_!(\/) - part joke, part serious, all glorious! You butter be ready for this0 -
xF1REFL1x✭✭✭“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”3 -
Aztrias✭✭✭✭✭
✭“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
You have to murder an innocent in Bree to join the Dark Brotherhood.
Welcome Moon-and-Star to this place where destiny is made
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/498360/r-i-p-pc-eu/p1
Nerevar forget!0 -
Eldartar✭✭✭✭It's not described as such - the way a game such as "Tyranny" is, much less a game such as the "Dungeon Keeper" genre, where 'you play evil' or at least in an evil world.
But it is. The designers basically always seem to build 'evil' into the game, without any corresponding 'good'.
The game is filled wit stories of people doing wrong, harming others; numerous times you must kill off innocent people - innocent being about as 'good' as the game usually gets - just for the purpose of adding that 'drama' to the game.
The game seems to range where on one end, you have the people wanting to get power by killing masses, while the other side, rather than being 'good', seems to be rulers who are at best simply looking to protect their power while not wanting to kill just for pleasure - but very happy to kill any threats to their power.
The game created mechanisms and rewards for things from stealing to a flat-out 'kill innocents for hire assassins guild' - while there are no corresponding 'good' game mechanisms or rewards.
Don't steal? OK, you get nothing. Oppose the dark brotherhood, protect innocents? Sorry, not really an option, but you get nothing.
Even when you walk in a town and might run across someone who needs a little money for food - you can't give it to them. Just watch them.
And so, for the big new class, maybe it's something 'good' right? Fat chance. It's necromancy. Doesn't get much darker than that.
The game just seems to embrace a world where evil has a lot to do, and good just isn't supported. The most 'good' it gets is your group killing something for a reward.
You'd think the introduction of 'high elves' and their homeland might have been a chance for something less evil - but not so much. Instead, you mainly encounter hateful, bigoted elves who insult immigrants and have no shortage of corruption and evil. Just look at the starter quest.
Perhaps it's interesting that the replacement for anything 'good' in the game - apart from the occasional good person who is usually killed quickly - is actually 'player' good - you could sit in a city and offer to help craft for people, to give them items they need, etc. No direct game support/acknowledgement/encouragement of it, but it's an option.
You have to wonder how much of this is 'intentional design' - an evil world not described as such; and how much is simply reflective of the developers' views, do they simply only see things like assassinating innocents as 'fun' and not care about 'good' activities, so they don't even realize the issue?
More examples could be found - for example, the pet class. You don't summon 'good' creatures to help; you don't even summon neutral creatures or animals. You can only summon 'daedra'.
Even when there's something like a bit more lighthearted 'fun, crazy' npc - I found he was basically like Batman's joker, a crazed figure hurting people and laughing at it, where he wanted to enslave a woman and take her to his land.
It seems notable that for such a 'dark' game, I've never seen the game refer to that as being its theme.
BUT, it's still only a GAME or am I missing a "deeper meaning" somewhere in all the above text??0 -
StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BjernarKhan wrote: »
But are they truly "innocent" ?? A town built around pirates... er Privateers.
There is a lady fishing near the port who looks completely shady. She alone with her clothing screams Court of Bedlam meets Hooded Figure (Worm Cultist) combined...
Maybe offing her is actually doing good in the long run, and letting her live - you never know she might be key some greater evil. Or, she could be some sweet kind lady who just shop in Bree's version of Hot Topic.
Best bet, is not take any chances.0 -
Vandril✭✭✭✭Maybe you could act as a guard and catch people committing a crime lol.
This was actually the original plan. Zenimax called it the "Justice System". It was scrapped, purportedly because they couldn't find a way to make the system enjoyable for both the criminals and the guards.Edited by Vandril on April 30, 2019 9:05PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not described as such - the way a game such as "Tyranny" is, much less a game such as the "Dungeon Keeper" genre, where 'you play evil' or at least in an evil world.
But it is. The designers basically always seem to build 'evil' into the game, without any corresponding 'good'.
The game is filled wit stories of people doing wrong, harming others; numerous times you must kill off innocent people - innocent being about as 'good' as the game usually gets - just for the purpose of adding that 'drama' to the game.
The game seems to range where on one end, you have the people wanting to get power by killing masses, while the other side, rather than being 'good', seems to be rulers who are at best simply looking to protect their power while not wanting to kill just for pleasure - but very happy to kill any threats to their power.
The game created mechanisms and rewards for things from stealing to a flat-out 'kill innocents for hire assassins guild' - while there are no corresponding 'good' game mechanisms or rewards.
Don't steal? OK, you get nothing. Oppose the dark brotherhood, protect innocents? Sorry, not really an option, but you get nothing.
Even when you walk in a town and might run across someone who needs a little money for food - you can't give it to them. Just watch them.
And so, for the big new class, maybe it's something 'good' right? Fat chance. It's necromancy. Doesn't get much darker than that.
The game just seems to embrace a world where evil has a lot to do, and good just isn't supported. The most 'good' it gets is your group killing something for a reward.
You'd think the introduction of 'high elves' and their homeland might have been a chance for something less evil - but not so much. Instead, you mainly encounter hateful, bigoted elves who insult immigrants and have no shortage of corruption and evil. Just look at the starter quest.
Perhaps it's interesting that the replacement for anything 'good' in the game - apart from the occasional good person who is usually killed quickly - is actually 'player' good - you could sit in a city and offer to help craft for people, to give them items they need, etc. No direct game support/acknowledgement/encouragement of it, but it's an option.
You have to wonder how much of this is 'intentional design' - an evil world not described as such; and how much is simply reflective of the developers' views, do they simply only see things like assassinating innocents as 'fun' and not care about 'good' activities, so they don't even realize the issue?
More examples could be found - for example, the pet class. You don't summon 'good' creatures to help; you don't even summon neutral creatures or animals. You can only summon 'daedra'.
Even when there's something like a bit more lighthearted 'fun, crazy' npc - I found he was basically like Batman's joker, a crazed figure hurting people and laughing at it, where he wanted to enslave a woman and take her to his land.
It seems notable that for such a 'dark' game, I've never seen the game refer to that as being its theme.
Nearly every quest on this game involves helping others. The basic plot of the game is that you save Nirn from an evil God. It doesn't get any more good than that.
Sure, the Dark Brotherhood is an exception to that rule. But considering it's a death cult of devoted assassins that makes sense.
I should also point out that as a warden you can summon a bear - and while it's a carnivore i'm not sure if you can really describe it as evil.Edited by Jeremy on April 30, 2019 9:23PM1 -
Vandril✭✭✭✭Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.
ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.
Close, but not quite. "Good" and "bad", as universal concepts, don't exist. There is no innate good, and there is no innate bad. Proof: differing cultures can (and at times, do, in real life) have entirely opposite notions of what is good and what is bad. The culture that you live in and its mechanics define what is good and what is bad.
People aren't born good or evil in an innate, universal sense. Rather, what people are born as is "entirely selfish" and have to learn empathy - a learned trait, not an innate trait. Whether or not being born as selfish also means you're born as being innately evil or not is entirely based around how your culture defines evil.
(In a tangentially related note to anyone reading: sociology is an amazingly intriguing science and, if you haven't finished/gone to college yet and plan to attend, you should absolutely at least take the intro course. If you don't know what sociology is, I urge you to consider looking into it.)
So you state, you can no more prove via the physical world there is no innate good or bad as I can prove to you there is.
Yes, I can. The existence of opposing perspectives on "good" disproves the concept of a universal good. Universal concepts are immutable. Since the concept of good is not, it is not a universal concept. But I'm not going to attempt to go too deep into defending established sociological and anthropological fact. If you're interested in the research, then there's plenty of it published and free to read into, all of which explain it far more thoroughly and eloquently than I'd be able to.
I like your post, though, so I want to go ahead and reply to all the points you made.Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.
ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.
Close, but not quite. "Good" and "bad", as universal concepts, don't exist. There is no innate good, and there is no innate bad. Proof: differing cultures can (and at times, do, in real life) have entirely opposite notions of what is good and what is bad. The culture that you live in and its mechanics define what is good and what is bad.
People aren't born good or evil in an innate, universal sense. Rather, what people are born as is "entirely selfish" and have to learn empathy - a learned trait, not an innate trait. Whether or not being born as selfish also means you're born as being innately evil or not is entirely based around how your culture defines evil.
(In a tangentially related note to anyone reading: sociology is an amazingly intriguing science and, if you haven't finished/gone to college yet and plan to attend, you should absolutely at least take the intro course. If you don't know what sociology is, I urge you to consider looking into it.)
The difference is, I suspect, you do not recognize those are two world views based on presuppositions that are entirely the choice of the individual to accept and neither can claim to be anymore factual than the other.
You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe.
Except that when there are two perfectly contradictory beliefs, one of them must be wrong. And the scientific evidence shows that it isn't mine. Science could conceivably be wrong on this, sure - scientists are only human, after all - but there's currently no evidence against it.Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.
ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.
Close, but not quite. "Good" and "bad", as universal concepts, don't exist. There is no innate good, and there is no innate bad. Proof: differing cultures can (and at times, do, in real life) have entirely opposite notions of what is good and what is bad. The culture that you live in and its mechanics define what is good and what is bad.
People aren't born good or evil in an innate, universal sense. Rather, what people are born as is "entirely selfish" and have to learn empathy - a learned trait, not an innate trait. Whether or not being born as selfish also means you're born as being innately evil or not is entirely based around how your culture defines evil.
(In a tangentially related note to anyone reading: sociology is an amazingly intriguing science and, if you haven't finished/gone to college yet and plan to attend, you should absolutely at least take the intro course. If you don't know what sociology is, I urge you to consider looking into it.)
But I will give you this for thought, how was it so many "good Germans" allowed the concentration camps to exist without any resistance. History has shown that given the choice people will do the wrong thing almost every time, especially when it serves their own self interest. Even in your world employing selfishness as the paradigm most would call that evil.
Self preservation, which is rooted in that selfishness I mentioned is innate to people.
Is it evil, though? Is it wrong? Our societal definitions of right and wrong certainly would say so. Did theirs, though? Did ALL the Germans who committed or ordered those terrible acts believe the acts were wrong? No, they did not. Many did, but not all. Because concepts of "good" and "evil" are based in society, and are not universal. You even said it yourself:most would call that evil.
Whether you noticed it or not, that statement implies that the concept of evil is disagreed upon and mutable, and thus not universal. Something cannot be universal if it only applies to most cases.Edited by Vandril on April 30, 2019 9:29PM2 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The game has a malevolent sense of life by that I mean...expect a bad outcome. One doesn’t have to look further than the main quest. Sacrifice one of “the good guys” to defeat “the bad guy.” Hmmmm.0
