Elder Scrolls online is almost entirely an evil game

Jeremy

JumpmanLane wrote: »

The game has a malevolent sense of life by that I mean...expect a bad outcome. One doesn’t have to look further than the main quest. Sacrifice one of “the good guys” to defeat “the bad guy.” Hmmmm.

Unfortunately doing good and overcoming evil often requires sacrifice.

NoTimeToWait

Eldartar wrote: »

BUT, it's still only a GAME or am I missing a "deeper meaning" somewhere in all the above text??

Some people do get absorbed into the fiction in more ways than others. What is only a game for you, might be a world to exist for another person.

There is no denying, that we still develop our RL character through the game, no matter how small and insignificant these changes are at first, they might evolve later into something significant.

You can never be sure, how much impact some fictional story might have on another person. It might be quite significant. Because in many cases, that is the purpose of fiction. To make an impression. To give an idea.

Even though there are quite a lot of things that exist only to make you entertained, TES is not one of those.

ArchangelIsraphel

In the end, it really is up to you to determine who your character is and how they feel/think about the situations they are thrown into- if you feel your character wouldn't do something, you can walk out in the middle of a quest line and refuse to have any further dealings with it. I have actually done this on some of my characters- especially on my Bosmer who has washed his hands of Bosmer society and thinks the Green Pact is full of rhetoric. (He eats salad, and he likes it.)

Though there are also times where I completely disregard the content of the quests- rather like someone simply reading a book and moving on, without applying what's happening to my character themselves. It's all quite subjective.

My point is, the Elder Scrolls puts you into a world- a harsh world. But you do have the choice to determine who your character will become. Even if the -quest itself- may not give you that choice, the thoughts, feelings, emotions, and whether or not you decide to actually go through with the quest, are all determined by you.

If anything I feel the Elder Scrolls and its complex lore- its world of darkness which is not unlike the darkness in our own world, encourages one to seek independence and write their own destiny.

Support your own good. Be your own good. Write your own tale in your mind as you play. Don't wait for others to give you the opportunity to be good, because that will never happen.

KRBMMO

ESO touched me inappropriately in my naughty spot.

Shantu

While I have no problem with killing bad guys and monsters out to do me harm, I haven't touched the Dark Brotherhood. The idea of killing the innocent is just twisted and ugly. When I discovered that was a requisite for joining, I dropped the story line and never looked back. I can't wrap my idea of "fun" around that concept. Yeah, I know it's "just a video game", but the idea is not. In the real world where it happens frequently, it's like ripping the heart out humanity. I hope whoever came up with that idea as a story line, and those who approved it, got some serious psychological help. They need it.

MJallday

If it makes you feel better, perhaps help an elderly khajit cross a path to a dolmen every now and then?

theyancey

The game is an epic fight of good vs evil. Unless you like pretending that you are Molag Bal the game is decidedly not evil. These forums are a decidedly different critter. Decidedly evil.

Zacuel

Lol

bearbelly

Whatever...


Have you met "The ESO Ouroboros is a satanic symbol!!!one!!" guy? You'd probably get along really well.

.

Jeremy

Shantu wrote: »

While I have no problem with killing bad guys and monsters out to do me harm, I haven't touched the Dark Brotherhood. The idea of killing the innocent is just twisted and ugly. When I discovered that was a requisite for joining, I dropped the story line and never looked back. I can't wrap my idea of "fun" around that concept. Yeah, I know it's "just a video game", but the idea is not. In the real world where it happens frequently, it's like ripping the heart out humanity. I hope whoever came up with that idea as a story line, and those who approved it, got some serious psychological help. They need it.

They are assassins who kill based on sacraments and contracts. They don't just go around killing innocents for the fun of it I remember correctly.

That being said: I won't dispute your general point that they are evil. That's certainly a reasonable conclusion. But giving players options to role play as evil characters can be harmless fun. I don't really see a problem with it.

ryzen_gamer_gal

Petoften wrote: »

It's not described as such - the way a game such as "Tyranny" is, much less a game such as the "Dungeon Keeper" genre, where 'you play evil' or at least in an evil world.

But it is. The designers basically always seem to build 'evil' into the game, without any corresponding 'good'.

The game is filled wit stories of people doing wrong, harming others; numerous times you must kill off innocent people - innocent being about as 'good' as the game usually gets - just for the purpose of adding that 'drama' to the game.

The game seems to range where on one end, you have the people wanting to get power by killing masses, while the other side, rather than being 'good', seems to be rulers who are at best simply looking to protect their power while not wanting to kill just for pleasure - but very happy to kill any threats to their power.

The game created mechanisms and rewards for things from stealing to a flat-out 'kill innocents for hire assassins guild' - while there are no corresponding 'good' game mechanisms or rewards.

Don't steal? OK, you get nothing. Oppose the dark brotherhood, protect innocents? Sorry, not really an option, but you get nothing.

Even when you walk in a town and might run across someone who needs a little money for food - you can't give it to them. Just watch them.

And so, for the big new class, maybe it's something 'good' right? Fat chance. It's necromancy. Doesn't get much darker than that.

The game just seems to embrace a world where evil has a lot to do, and good just isn't supported. The most 'good' it gets is your group killing something for a reward.

You'd think the introduction of 'high elves' and their homeland might have been a chance for something less evil - but not so much. Instead, you mainly encounter hateful, bigoted elves who insult immigrants and have no shortage of corruption and evil. Just look at the starter quest.

Perhaps it's interesting that the replacement for anything 'good' in the game - apart from the occasional good person who is usually killed quickly - is actually 'player' good - you could sit in a city and offer to help craft for people, to give them items they need, etc. No direct game support/acknowledgement/encouragement of it, but it's an option.

You have to wonder how much of this is 'intentional design' - an evil world not described as such; and how much is simply reflective of the developers' views, do they simply only see things like assassinating innocents as 'fun' and not care about 'good' activities, so they don't even realize the issue?

More examples could be found - for example, the pet class. You don't summon 'good' creatures to help; you don't even summon neutral creatures or animals. You can only summon 'daedra'.

Even when there's something like a bit more lighthearted 'fun, crazy' npc - I found he was basically like Batman's joker, a crazed figure hurting people and laughing at it, where he wanted to enslave a woman and take her to his land.

It seems notable that for such a 'dark' game, I've never seen the game refer to that as being its theme.

Yes you are right. And what passes for good in TES, ie the Aedra, are mysteriously absent throughout every story line.

ryzen_gamer_gal

Shantu wrote: »

While I have no problem with killing bad guys and monsters out to do me harm, I haven't touched the Dark Brotherhood. The idea of killing the innocent is just twisted and ugly. When I discovered that was a requisite for joining, I dropped the story line and never looked back. I can't wrap my idea of "fun" around that concept. Yeah, I know it's "just a video game", but the idea is not. In the real world where it happens frequently, it's like ripping the heart out humanity. I hope whoever came up with that idea as a story line, and those who approved it, got some serious psychological help. They need it.

I joined it initially with one toon after about a year and a half of playing, hoping that the storyline, like in skyrim, would give me the option to take down the db from the inside.. no such option exists.

D0PAMINE

I always play evil.

Ectheliontnacil

Skwor wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Myrkgrav wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.

Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.

It's quite the opposite actually, but I remember being an edgy teenager so I'll forgive this transgression.

Thank you for the laugh, my 55 years on this rock with 6 years in the military and having raised three successful children inform me otherwise.

Must have been a hell of a dad haha.

Teacher: Your son got into a fight, you should discourage this behaviour.

This guy: Should I teach my son to deny the fact that he is inherently evil???

Also being born bad and staying that way for the rest of your life is a claim you can in no way back up.

You are not following the concept. Try to define good first, it really is not so easy. Unless you can claim anyone is perfectly good you will find yourself struggling to argue against my position

Have you known anyone to never do wrong? To use a cliche, I never saw a child taught to lie but all I have known had to be taught not to lie.

Lol you're backtracking now though. There's a big difference between being bad and being perfectly good. This is your original statement.

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

You also claim that we all remain mostly bad, even after being taught "how to be good". Which just about falls short of a blatant lie. Society would have crumbled long ago if this truly was the case.
Generally bad or wicked people are that way because of severe trauma or lack of empathy due to psychological disorders (and if you lack empathy it's impossible to be evil, as you won't perceive your actions as being evil).

I would argue that humans are inherently good. Weak, flawed and selfish perhaps. But I don't believe there is an innate human desire to harm others. And I think I'm able to defend this position better than you are able to defend yours.

I am not backtracking nor did I try to use the concept of perfectly good to change the debate. I was stating that it is easier to define bad then to define good. Most people would accept that the absence being bad does not make a person good but the absence of doing good can make a person bad. The two are not balanced opposites, I do not subscribe to a ying/yang philosophy.

Also ask yourself why do we need any sort of a civil law force if your supposition is correct about society crumbling? I suggest you brush up on one the primary functions of a society one of which is to create and enforce a set of standards to protect those in it. If what you posit is true we would not need such an enforcement agency would we?

Yes humans have their flaws, but your argument isn't logically sound, humans do strive to maintain order and peace which is why they created our society .

Also law enforcement isn't here to keep at bay the evil that burns in every humans heart lol.
I don't know where you got the notion that 'good people' would make law enforcement obsolete. A guy runs a red light...sure there should be repercussions for being this inattentive, but does this mean he is a bad person?
Same goes for parking tickets, maybe even theft in some cases, occupying abandoned houses, begging (is not permitted in some places), or drug use. Those things are and probably should be against the law, but breaking those laws isn't cruel or evil and not designed to hurt others.
So yeah police isn't just here because were all a bunch of murdering savages.

And don't forget that I never claimed there were only good people. I simply disagree with you saying everyone without fail is born bad and stays that way.

rsantijw13

With Necromancer affecting the Justice system, I have the high hope of the originally intended Justice system where you were going to be able to hunt people down and mete out justice. My original guild already had things lined up to have events on it

Wandering_Immigrant

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Myrkgrav wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.

Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.

It's quite the opposite actually, but I remember being an edgy teenager so I'll forgive this transgression.

Thank you for the laugh, my 55 years on this rock with 6 years in the military and having raised three successful children inform me otherwise.

Must have been a hell of a dad haha.

Teacher: Your son got into a fight, you should discourage this behaviour.

This guy: Should I teach my son to deny the fact that he is inherently evil???

Also being born bad and staying that way for the rest of your life is a claim you can in no way back up.

You are not following the concept. Try to define good first, it really is not so easy. Unless you can claim anyone is perfectly good you will find yourself struggling to argue against my position

Have you known anyone to never do wrong? To use a cliche, I never saw a child taught to lie but all I have known had to be taught not to lie.

Lol you're backtracking now though. There's a big difference between being bad and not being perfectly good. This is your original statement.

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.
Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

You also claim that we all remain mostly bad, even after being taught "how to be good". Which just about falls short of a blatant lie. Society would have crumbled long ago if this truly was the case.
Generally bad or wicked people are that way because of severe trauma or lack of empathy due to psychological disorders (and if you lack empathy it's impossible to be evil, as you won't perceive your actions as being evil).

I would argue that humans are inherently good. Weak, flawed and selfish perhaps. But I don't believe there is an innate human desire to harm others. And I think I'm able to defend this position better than you are able to defend yours.

I think you're misunderstanding. Good and bad are perceived notions, they're not real, as they change from culture to culture. What we're born with is selfishness (among other things of course), now, selfishness isn't an inherently bad trait, it's just a survival instinct, what we're taught is societal moralities and the fine line between what we want and what can be afforded us by others.

Babies don't realize they're being obnoxious when they cry until they get what they want, some are taught to say please, others aren't and they become spoil little brats who beg and steal.

ArchangelIsraphel

Shantu wrote: »

While I have no problem with killing bad guys and monsters out to do me harm, I haven't touched the Dark Brotherhood. The idea of killing the innocent is just twisted and ugly. When I discovered that was a requisite for joining, I dropped the story line and never looked back. I can't wrap my idea of "fun" around that concept. Yeah, I know it's "just a video game", but the idea is not. In the real world where it happens frequently, it's like ripping the heart out humanity. I hope whoever came up with that idea as a story line, and those who approved it, got some serious psychological help. They need it.

While I dislike the dark brotherhood myself and found the content deeply disturbing, this type of thinking is a misconception I see so often. People confuse someones morality with the mechanisms they use to tell a story. What someone might enjoy as a form of entertainment does not define their values as a person or their practices in the real world. Human beings are not black and white, cut and dry- our brains are quite literally able to imagine anything in the world from things of beauty to absolute atrocities. Being flexible enough to think about certain subjects- even to be entertained by them, does not make someone depraved nor does it mean they would act on those things in the real world.

A person who might find the dark brotherhood a despicable concept might even make a character who is an assassin simply for the sake of understanding that perspective from the point of view of an author writing a story. They might even be entertained and have fun developing a villain they absolutely hate.

Fans of Horror films, fans of reading murder mysteries, and the authors/filmmakers who create these things for yes entertainment and fun (because some people enjoy being scared!) aren't any more depraived than you or I. They're just people capable of exploring different concepts, then walking away from them at the end of the day without making them have any further meaning in their lives.

zyk

One time I was in Cyrodiil and another player actually killed me. So OP gets an Insightful.

On a serious note, TES fiction isn't particularly dark when it comes to fantasy. Even the Night Mother is like a caricature of actually dark fiction. The Dark Brotherhood is kind of... chummy. In games with true 'evil' paths, there are also evil outcomes which generally isn't true in this game.

I would say TES is more akin to 'harsh reality' fiction which considers people to be flawed and most conflicts to have elements of grey. Still, the outcomes are generally virtuous relative to general western values.

I think it's only really dark compared to the most mainstream fiction from old media like books and films; really vestiges from the walled gardens of monolithic media that dominated before the internet -- which tended to reinforce idealized judeo-christian ethics.

Red_Feather

It is grim. Lots of people go out into the world and die under trees next to backpacks.

Tippertty

Here I was having a debate earlier today, with me taking the I would like to see a good vs evil choice like SWTOR or Mass effect Paragon vs renegade system in the game. It would be good to see different endings to quests that shaped the world and the story behind those choices. You could run as a goodie two shoes, or be the worst corrupted, evil B-star out there. To me, the story/quests in the game favor heavily the good moral choices, with a few that lean towards you either killing or letting the person live(Thieves den quest).

However, if I could question the OP look on things, they seem to think that the game has no good friendly choices, well there is. The fact that you the player is not going around murdering the world is the morally good choice because we all live in a society where we(most of us) have agreed to not all club each other over the head, murder, *** or rob each other willy nilly. This is the same in the game, the reward is building a functioning society for the betterment of each other and that is the same in the game. You steal from someone and you are rewarded with a short term monetary gain, you choose not to and you are rewarded with a long term morally and functioning society and again this is reflected in the game. Also, how would the game reward someone for walking through a town or city for not murdering the inhabitants?

On saying that, I would like to see a system where you have a corrupted or morally good choice. You could help the current government system to defend its land and people or you choose to take power and rule it yourself or side with the deadra god and help them fulfill their evil plans. You want to own a skomma factory, you want a silver mine pack full of slaves digging with their hands to save you money on tools or you want to shut down skomma factories, defend the people, free the slaves. Yes, it is a lot to ask for, but damn what an MMO that would be.

Deathlord92

I started elder scrolls from oblivion and every elder scrolls game I played I was a Breton vampire assassin a cold hearted killer 🙂

Tippertty

Deathlord92 wrote: »

I started elder scrolls from oblivion and every elder scrolls game I played I was a Breton vampire assassin a cold hearted killer 🙂

If you were a vampire, should that read

"Breton vampire assassin cold-hearted hunter?"

ThanatosXR

Maybe MS will make a fable mmo...hahah yeah right

Daleth

I would argue that the Psijic order is a "good" thing, although I have not played through it all yet.

Kuramas9tails

Skwor wrote: »

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.

Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.

You are going into a deep philosophical arena I do not wish to enter but at the same time I do.

It's so tempting.

Skwor

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.

Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.

You are going into a deep philosophical arena I do not wish to enter but at the same time I do.

It's so tempting.

Lol ya I knew I was. Some here jumped in not quite realizing what I was actually saying.

Especially in that this speaks to the pecept of an absolute good and evil as apodictic.

tinythinker

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.

Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.

You are going into a deep philosophical arena I do not wish to enter but at the same time I do.

It's so tempting.

Used to live in such spaces in message boards once upon a time, as well as adjacent ones. But these particular forums may not be the best suited for it

Karius_Imalthar

I've seen people point out in the past the fact that, for daedra worship to be considered evil and outlawed, it seems like nearly nearly everyone practices it.

FierceSam

And yet, if you just pause a moment from all your killing, thieving and villainy, there are quests like The Flower of Youth.

Here you help an old Bosmer recall his former love and reunite them spiritually by collecting and planting flowers.

It’s not a big part of the overall story, or a necessary part of any larger plot line or achievement, but it’s very good in every sense of the word.

And it’s stuck with me for far longer and resonated far deeper than all of the indiscriminate killings and senseless larceny I’ve done.

But enough frippery, back to being bad