Elder Scrolls online is almost entirely an evil game

Petoften

It's not described as such - the way a game such as "Tyranny" is, much less a game such as the "Dungeon Keeper" genre, where 'you play evil' or at least in an evil world.

But it is. The designers basically always seem to build 'evil' into the game, without any corresponding 'good'.

The game is filled wit stories of people doing wrong, harming others; numerous times you must kill off innocent people - innocent being about as 'good' as the game usually gets - just for the purpose of adding that 'drama' to the game.

The game seems to range where on one end, you have the people wanting to get power by killing masses, while the other side, rather than being 'good', seems to be rulers who are at best simply looking to protect their power while not wanting to kill just for pleasure - but very happy to kill any threats to their power.

The game created mechanisms and rewards for things from stealing to a flat-out 'kill innocents for hire assassins guild' - while there are no corresponding 'good' game mechanisms or rewards.

Don't steal? OK, you get nothing. Oppose the dark brotherhood, protect innocents? Sorry, not really an option, but you get nothing.

Even when you walk in a town and might run across someone who needs a little money for food - you can't give it to them. Just watch them.

And so, for the big new class, maybe it's something 'good' right? Fat chance. It's necromancy. Doesn't get much darker than that.

The game just seems to embrace a world where evil has a lot to do, and good just isn't supported. The most 'good' it gets is your group killing something for a reward.

You'd think the introduction of 'high elves' and their homeland might have been a chance for something less evil - but not so much. Instead, you mainly encounter hateful, bigoted elves who insult immigrants and have no shortage of corruption and evil. Just look at the starter quest.

Perhaps it's interesting that the replacement for anything 'good' in the game - apart from the occasional good person who is usually killed quickly - is actually 'player' good - you could sit in a city and offer to help craft for people, to give them items they need, etc. No direct game support/acknowledgement/encouragement of it, but it's an option.

You have to wonder how much of this is 'intentional design' - an evil world not described as such; and how much is simply reflective of the developers' views, do they simply only see things like assassinating innocents as 'fun' and not care about 'good' activities, so they don't even realize the issue?

More examples could be found - for example, the pet class. You don't summon 'good' creatures to help; you don't even summon neutral creatures or animals. You can only summon 'daedra'.

Even when there's something like a bit more lighthearted 'fun, crazy' npc - I found he was basically like Batman's joker, a crazed figure hurting people and laughing at it, where he wanted to enslave a woman and take her to his land.

It seems notable that for such a 'dark' game, I've never seen the game refer to that as being its theme.

Odovacar

Gatviper

MaleAmazon

Well, actually, most of the 'mainline' quests are quite on the goody two-shoes side. Which is good IMO, as there are few things that can compete in annoyance with forcing me to be evil in an RPG. "I am only doing this for the money" being the only response to take on a quest in Oblivion - I still remember you. Till the day I die.


And they have SOME choices. I still like it that they put in the choice to kill Helane (originally you had to give her the antidote or let her slowly die in agony).

You can also supply some story yourself if you want to. I mean I sometimes just turn 'RPG-mode' off in my head, but with the Thieves´ Guild I try to make up a little reason why I rob the places I do. And if I come across a quest with a meaningful choice (and those do exist, just mostly in the sidequest realm I guess), I can make one.

Unfortunately especially vanilla ESO is not superbly written, and it lacks the 'go the extra mile for the secret really good quest ending' you can get in deeper games.

The lack of more interesting writing is, I guess, also why you get the "kill evil cultist to get relic" quest. It´s borderline parody sometimes.

But you can light fires for people in need, you don´t have to kill innocent people, etc.

That being said, it was great in Skyrim when you could actually play the other side and annihilate the DB.

I agree with some of the OP´s sentiments though - there are too many stereotypically snooty altmer, and it would be nice to have more RP in general in the game; being able to help people without being a paladin...

Vapirko

It’s a tough world out there...

Myrkgrav

It's almost like this entire series is a mirror reflection of the real world, which ironically enough 99% of people don't seem to realize. The slavery, the racism, the never-ending conflicts between factions... Really dinks the ol ***.

twev

Reality is a harsh mistress.

Reality doesn't care about your feelings.

Reality will eat you and spit out your bones without a second thought.

Parts of the game (not unlike real life) reflect this.

Ayastigi

Petoften wrote: »

It's not described as such - the way a game such as "Tyranny" is, much less a game such as the "Dungeon Keeper" genre, where 'you play evil' or at least in an evil world.

But it is. The designers basically always seem to build 'evil' into the game, without any corresponding 'good'.

The game is filled wit stories of people doing wrong, harming others; numerous times you must kill off innocent people - innocent being about as 'good' as the game usually gets - just for the purpose of adding that 'drama' to the game.

The game seems to range where on one end, you have the people wanting to get power by killing masses, while the other side, rather than being 'good', seems to be rulers who are at best simply looking to protect their power while not wanting to kill just for pleasure - but very happy to kill any threats to their power.

The game created mechanisms and rewards for things from stealing to a flat-out 'kill innocents for hire assassins guild' - while there are no corresponding 'good' game mechanisms or rewards.

Don't steal? OK, you get nothing. Oppose the dark brotherhood, protect innocents? Sorry, not really an option, but you get nothing.

Even when you walk in a town and might run across someone who needs a little money for food - you can't give it to them. Just watch them.

And so, for the big new class, maybe it's something 'good' right? Fat chance. It's necromancy. Doesn't get much darker than that.

The game just seems to embrace a world where evil has a lot to do, and good just isn't supported. The most 'good' it gets is your group killing something for a reward.

You'd think the introduction of 'high elves' and their homeland might have been a chance for something less evil - but not so much. Instead, you mainly encounter hateful, bigoted elves who insult immigrants and have no shortage of corruption and evil. Just look at the starter quest.

Perhaps it's interesting that the replacement for anything 'good' in the game - apart from the occasional good person who is usually killed quickly - is actually 'player' good - you could sit in a city and offer to help craft for people, to give them items they need, etc. No direct game support/acknowledgement/encouragement of it, but it's an option.

You have to wonder how much of this is 'intentional design' - an evil world not described as such; and how much is simply reflective of the developers' views, do they simply only see things like assassinating innocents as 'fun' and not care about 'good' activities, so they don't even realize the issue?

More examples could be found - for example, the pet class. You don't summon 'good' creatures to help; you don't even summon neutral creatures or animals. You can only summon 'daedra'.

Even when there's something like a bit more lighthearted 'fun, crazy' npc - I found he was basically like Batman's joker, a crazed figure hurting people and laughing at it, where he wanted to enslave a woman and take her to his land.

It seems notable that for such a 'dark' game, I've never seen the game refer to that as being its theme.

I think it reflects real life quite well. Being good in real life is a thankless job and you shouldn't look for rewards for doing the right thing

Skwor

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.

Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.

DocFrost72

You have some decent points but you ruined it right about...

You have to wonder how much of this is 'intentional design' - an evil world not described as such; and how much is simply reflective of the developers' views, do they simply only see things like assassinating innocents as 'fun' and not care about 'good' activities, so they don't even realize the issue?

There.

I don't have to wonder, actually. I don't think creating content (movies/games/jokes) featuring dark material endorses that material. I also think ad hominem is a fallacy.

Gilvoth

you would not like the alternative, it would be highly distasteful.

Tan9oSuccka

You thought Summerset (the Altmer Mecca) would be a good introduction to showcase the “good” of Tamriel.

Yikes.

worrallj

I tend to agree OP, for all thieves guild / DB you basically have to just never go to those zones and ignore the quest givers if you don't want to be a thief & murderer.

I really wish more of the content had been done with the sort of forked parallel quest chains we've seen in other TES games. Like stormcloak/imperial in skyrim. For example in orsinium a questline to support the trinimac cult or the malacath cult. For DB/thieves guild, you could play either as guild members or as law enforcement. That would have been a tremendous added value to the game, but it's clear ZOS has firmly decided that questlines will play more like a movie you watch than a story you participate in.

Myrkgrav

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

You thought Summerset (the Altmer Mecca) would be a good introduction to showcase the “good” of Tamriel.

Yikes.

This had me laughing. Altmer, good? LOOOOOL.

ChunkyCat

Nah, bruh.

I’m good.

NordSwordnBoard

I don't steal or murder for quests/dlcs, and I'm OK getting nothing in return for avoiding them. It took forever to level up Legerdemain picking chest locks, lol. Otherwise, I've had endless fun playing my main and having to think about quest decisions and consequences instead of simple good vs evil tropes.

Iluvrien

It's a fantasy MMORPG for the Game of Thrones generation.


Of course there has to be a lot of needless suffering and death! Playing a straight-up hero would be soooo 1980s. /s

SteveCampsOut

Ayastigi wrote: »

Petoften wrote: »

It's not described as such - the way a game such as "Tyranny" is, much less a game such as the "Dungeon Keeper" genre, where 'you play evil' or at least in an evil world.

But it is. The designers basically always seem to build 'evil' into the game, without any corresponding 'good'.

The game is filled wit stories of people doing wrong, harming others; numerous times you must kill off innocent people - innocent being about as 'good' as the game usually gets - just for the purpose of adding that 'drama' to the game.

The game seems to range where on one end, you have the people wanting to get power by killing masses, while the other side, rather than being 'good', seems to be rulers who are at best simply looking to protect their power while not wanting to kill just for pleasure - but very happy to kill any threats to their power.

The game created mechanisms and rewards for things from stealing to a flat-out 'kill innocents for hire assassins guild' - while there are no corresponding 'good' game mechanisms or rewards.

Don't steal? OK, you get nothing. Oppose the dark brotherhood, protect innocents? Sorry, not really an option, but you get nothing.

Even when you walk in a town and might run across someone who needs a little money for food - you can't give it to them. Just watch them.

And so, for the big new class, maybe it's something 'good' right? Fat chance. It's necromancy. Doesn't get much darker than that.

The game just seems to embrace a world where evil has a lot to do, and good just isn't supported. The most 'good' it gets is your group killing something for a reward.

You'd think the introduction of 'high elves' and their homeland might have been a chance for something less evil - but not so much. Instead, you mainly encounter hateful, bigoted elves who insult immigrants and have no shortage of corruption and evil. Just look at the starter quest.

Perhaps it's interesting that the replacement for anything 'good' in the game - apart from the occasional good person who is usually killed quickly - is actually 'player' good - you could sit in a city and offer to help craft for people, to give them items they need, etc. No direct game support/acknowledgement/encouragement of it, but it's an option.

You have to wonder how much of this is 'intentional design' - an evil world not described as such; and how much is simply reflective of the developers' views, do they simply only see things like assassinating innocents as 'fun' and not care about 'good' activities, so they don't even realize the issue?

More examples could be found - for example, the pet class. You don't summon 'good' creatures to help; you don't even summon neutral creatures or animals. You can only summon 'daedra'.

Even when there's something like a bit more lighthearted 'fun, crazy' npc - I found he was basically like Batman's joker, a crazed figure hurting people and laughing at it, where he wanted to enslave a woman and take her to his land.

It seems notable that for such a 'dark' game, I've never seen the game refer to that as being its theme.

I think it reflects real life quite well. Being good in real life is a thankless job and you shouldn't look for rewards for doing the right thing

I don't agree that being good has no rewards in real life. You just have to recognize that those rewards are more ephemeral than capital.

VaranisArano

Tamriel is not a happy feel-good place, and hasn't been ever since Arena, where you are saving the Empire from an imposter who's starting wars across the entire continent to batten on the power the death and misery feeds him. The next game, Daggerfall, outright gives you the option to betray your employers multiple times even though the Dragonbreak made your final choice somewhat moot.

ESO is nothing new in that regard. Outside of Daggerfall, none of the TES games gives you the option to work for the antagonists, but you certainly have the freedom to do good or evil (and often get a reputation either way, something ESO unfortunately lacks).

I mean, if you dislike dealing with racial tensions between the TES races, I recommend you skip TES 3 Morrowind and TES 5 Skyrim completely. (I might be wrong, but I assume you didnt play Skyrim if the treatment of outsiders in Summerset surprised you...or you didnt pay attention at all during the Auridon questline with the Veiled Heritance.)

Frankly, if what you want is a game that can be played with very little complexity, generally clear-cut good guys to team up with, and the ability to save the world (at great cost) from the bad guys, go play TES IV Oblivion. Its the best in the series if you like that sort of thing because the conplexity is there but ignorable.

MuddledMuppet

Skwor wrote: »

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.

Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

Preach much?

Skwor

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.

Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

Preach much?

Truths are truths.

Myrkgrav

Skwor wrote: »

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.

Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.

It's quite the opposite actually, but I remember being an edgy teenager so I'll forgive this transgression.

Skwor

Myrkgrav wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Fundamental fact of life, everyone is born bad, we all have to be taught how to be good and even then we are still mostly bad.

Some never accept this and even try to deny it, unfortunatly to thier own misfortune.

ESO tends to mirror this and imo most good MMOs do that.

It's quite the opposite actually, but I remember being an edgy teenager so I'll forgive this transgression.

Thank you for the laugh, my 55 years on this rock with 6 years in the military and having raised three successful children inform me otherwise.

Gilvoth

atleast here in this fake world we can see that the evil we know of is actually evil.

Bouldercleave

If you boil this game down to the basics, you are basically a mercenary doing peoples tasks for money. That's just like 99% of all games in this genre and in fact real life.

The main questline is really self serving, as your REAL goal is as much to get your soul back as it is to save Tamriel. You save everyone as a byproduct of you getting your soul back.

From there you run around every corner of the world killing and stealing for other people in the hopes to amass wealth and fame.


I spend 10-13 hours a day doing my General Manager's menial tasks for money IRL so I can amass wealth and notoriety within my field.

Ayastigi

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Petoften wrote: »

It's not described as such - the way a game such as "Tyranny" is, much less a game such as the "Dungeon Keeper" genre, where 'you play evil' or at least in an evil world.

But it is. The designers basically always seem to build 'evil' into the game, without any corresponding 'good'.

The game is filled wit stories of people doing wrong, harming others; numerous times you must kill off innocent people - innocent being about as 'good' as the game usually gets - just for the purpose of adding that 'drama' to the game.

The game seems to range where on one end, you have the people wanting to get power by killing masses, while the other side, rather than being 'good', seems to be rulers who are at best simply looking to protect their power while not wanting to kill just for pleasure - but very happy to kill any threats to their power.

The game created mechanisms and rewards for things from stealing to a flat-out 'kill innocents for hire assassins guild' - while there are no corresponding 'good' game mechanisms or rewards.

Don't steal? OK, you get nothing. Oppose the dark brotherhood, protect innocents? Sorry, not really an option, but you get nothing.

Even when you walk in a town and might run across someone who needs a little money for food - you can't give it to them. Just watch them.

And so, for the big new class, maybe it's something 'good' right? Fat chance. It's necromancy. Doesn't get much darker than that.

The game just seems to embrace a world where evil has a lot to do, and good just isn't supported. The most 'good' it gets is your group killing something for a reward.

You'd think the introduction of 'high elves' and their homeland might have been a chance for something less evil - but not so much. Instead, you mainly encounter hateful, bigoted elves who insult immigrants and have no shortage of corruption and evil. Just look at the starter quest.

Perhaps it's interesting that the replacement for anything 'good' in the game - apart from the occasional good person who is usually killed quickly - is actually 'player' good - you could sit in a city and offer to help craft for people, to give them items they need, etc. No direct game support/acknowledgement/encouragement of it, but it's an option.

You have to wonder how much of this is 'intentional design' - an evil world not described as such; and how much is simply reflective of the developers' views, do they simply only see things like assassinating innocents as 'fun' and not care about 'good' activities, so they don't even realize the issue?

More examples could be found - for example, the pet class. You don't summon 'good' creatures to help; you don't even summon neutral creatures or animals. You can only summon 'daedra'.

Even when there's something like a bit more lighthearted 'fun, crazy' npc - I found he was basically like Batman's joker, a crazed figure hurting people and laughing at it, where he wanted to enslave a woman and take her to his land.

It seems notable that for such a 'dark' game, I've never seen the game refer to that as being its theme.

I think it reflects real life quite well. Being good in real life is a thankless job and you shouldn't look for rewards for doing the right thing

I don't agree that being good has no rewards in real life. You just have to recognize that those rewards are more ephemeral than capital.

I'm not saying you don't receive rewards for being a good person rather you shouldn't expect rewards for being a good person.

starkerealm

As a setting, TES does not provide an endorsement of good and evil to the player.

This doesn't mean there is no such thing as good and evil in the world, simply that, much like in the real one, The Elder Scrolls doesn't pat you on the head for doing a good thing and award you a cookie, or scold you for doing a bad thing.

This, ironically, subtly encourages a slightly more mature approach to roleplaying. You're being asked to weigh your actions and consequences against your own moral compass, without the game ever stepping back and grading you on what you've done.

Joining an organization like The Dark Brotherhood is transparently evil. These are a guild of assassins, many of whom are downright pychopaths.

But, what about the Morag Tong? On the surface, they operate within the law, they have a formal process designed to limit themselves to sanctioned killings. Even though the organization also traffics in extra-legal gray writs, and at the end of the day the Morag Tong are skill hired killers. Killers with a code of honor, but killers the same. Are they better? Are they still evil?

What about The Fighter's Guild in ESO? Your working for the Daedra. In more conventional terms, you're working for demons to fight and kill other demons. But, is this evil? Is it good? On what basis? Because your actions seek to protect the world you live in from external invasion? But, you're still dealing with Daedra.

There's an entire set of mental gymnastics about how dealing with one Daedra is, "okay," because "they're not evil." At which point it's probably worth remembering that Meridia, the Daedric Prince that the Fighter's guild is working with has no problem using and discarding Darien as her personal pawn. Has no qualms about sending her daedra to massacre worshipers of the divines across Cyrodiil (in the third era) once the dragonfires went out.

So, is she good?

Is she evil?

Is she beyond that?

Where does that leave you for siding with her? Is it good, evil, or some hazy space in between?

There's evil in Tamriel, there's also good. It's up to you to decide what you're willing to do.

Blinkin8r

War, war never changes...

wodkamanostrab16_ESO

Tamriel is in a continent-wide war currently, while Daedra Lords going rampage and try to end the world. What do you expect? And basically there is a counterpart to the Dark Brotherhood - the Fighters Guild: you accept contracts to help out citizens and kill evil Daedra.

Riejael

Its ironic, because I have the opposite opinion. I believe the game forces you to be too 'good'. You don't really get to choose a side or have any real consequences for your actions.

For example, when the Davon's Watch gets invaded by the Covenant. You have to be pro Pact. You can't just throw the town under the bus and help the invaders. And why shouldn't we be able to? We know the places can be phased. When you do the Harborage quests, you don't have the option to kill off the other adventurers, shank Mannimarco and take his place with Molag Bal.

You are railroaded into completing the story in each zone a certain way. Sure you have the option to do it in a mean way or as the OP says 'evil'. But its minor acts of evil compared to the big picture. You have no option really to be the villain. No matter how much of a *** you are, you are still seen as a hero of the land when you complete the questlines.

One game that handled villainous actions well, though primitively, was Everquest. Lets say you were playing a Agnostic Human Warrior and you decided to visit the elves in their forest. You have the literal option to maim and kill every elf you see, including the guards protecting the city. Do this enough and the Orcs nearby will like you, and the dark elves will also like you.

Benefits include being able to enter some evil cities, consequences are you can no longer enter some good cities without being attacked.

I wish more games would do this. And have systems that help and even encourage divergent gameplay and character morals.We don't always need to be heroes.

Gilvoth

i do agree that having a choice to become or choose to play as good or evil and have that change your options and what your character becomes would be cool.