Regarding the Combat Log System

Kihra · April 2019

idk wrote: »

[
The fact is Zos' logging system will even collect data from players that just happen to be nearby and not grouped with you. That is how poorly they set this up. This has been tested on the PTS. Pitiful.

You see I have played a lesser game that had a better design to their parsing system. Anyone could collect their own parse and upload the data to see it. What was also great was the same system allows a raid group to join together and collect a group parse.

So the people who have been selling you on the idea that this full opt in is required is feeding you and everyone else a line of bull. The only reason ESO's new system has to gather everyone's information is because Zos was down right lazy in how they approached this. As a result you are getting a second rate system. I laugh at how Zos is selling us their indolent work and everyone is so excited about this. It is a sad laugh.

This logging system could have been so much better.

You keep throwing around terms like "lazy", "poorly designed", etc., but what you really mean is "implemented in a way I don't agree with." These aren't lazy design decisions. They're required for a complete picture of what's actually going on.

I assume the game you keep mentioning is SWTOR, which allows you to log only yourself, and then tools exist that can help you see everyone's DPS combined. SWTOR does not have a well-designed logging system. In fact, it's really terrible, and that's actually why I've never bothered to build a site for SWTOR.

(1) Everyone in SWTOR has to log. That means you force every person in the raid to be running logs instead of just one person.
(2) SWTOR does not log enemy actions or show you enemy boss buffs. You can't get any kind of coherent picture of boss behavior, since you can't see anything the NPCs and bosses do to each other or to themselves.
(3) While it's easy to merge logs from multiple people simply to show DPS numbers, trying to merge the logs back into a coherent full event view is borderline impossible, especially since the timestamps use the client clock, and the events are often delivered in a slightly different order to each client.

My site supports many features that simply would not be possible with a logging system like SWTOR's, from focusing in on specific narrow timelines to seeing what's going on in combat replay. These features depend on having a complete view of the battlefield, and that's what a common sense logging approach *should* provide.

It's actually good design to log everything going on around the logger, since that always paints a complete picture and only requires one person to deal with the hassle of logging in order to get that complete picture. Imagine having 12 people log, and then Bob disconnects, so oops you just lost Bob's data. You're dependent on all 12 people in the raid having flawless internet, instead of being dependent on only one person.

The "log everything around the logger" approach is how logging works in most MMOs that implemented logging, such as World of Warcraft, FFXIV, Wildstar, Rift, etc.

This analysis goes far beyond just DPS, and there's entirely too much focus being placed on that, when it's just one small aspect of what the analysis features of my site provide.

jirusan · April 2019

I don't like having my data uploaded despite my opt-out to another shabby Internet company to be fingerprinted, profiled, and monetized. I don't know you, I don't have a contract with you, I don't trust you, and I'd rather have nothing to do with you.

Thicclady · April 2019

Flares wrote: »

Best feature in ESO, will most likely quit if removed.

Can I have your stuffz?

kathandira · April 2019

As a Trials Leader in our Guild, I would absolutely love this feature if it were available on Console.

Not to shame people, but to uplift them. There are people who are shy and are hesitant to reach out for help. If I could look over everyone's performance, and see what skills they are using, what mechanics they are struggling with, or what have you, then I could privately approach them and offer them pointers. It would be a boon to the player, and the group to be able to identify where people are struggling.

Tools that highlight a person's shortcomings don't have to be used as a tool to scald them. It comes down to the difference between a Boss and a Leader. A leader stands with their team and works with them.

Letho2469 · April 2019

jirusan wrote: »

I don't like having my data uploaded despite my opt-out to another shabby Internet company to be fingerprinted, profiled, and monetized. I don't know you, I don't have a contract with you, I don't trust you, and I'd rather have nothing to do with you.

Problem is: This is NOT your data, it's ZOS's data as nothing linked to your natural person is uploaded :]

Nebthet78 · April 2019

Whether or not it is ZOS' data or not, if it can be used to identify me or my username it is then subject to Privacy laws. Nothing bypasses that. Additionally, it still does not grant ZOS an automatic pass on allowing a Third Party the right to have that data, nor for another Player to download it without my Meaningful Consent. They don't have that.
Hiding something in the Terms of Service and putting it automatically to Anonymous that you must switch on, is still not Meaningful Consent.

Additionally, as @ZOS_BobbyWeir has mentioned, they are only allowing this tool because the logs are downloaded only after the fight.

ZOS_BobbyWeir wrote: »

You may remember that years ago, our addon API unintentionally allowed the ability to show group combat data in real time. While we saw a merit in this as tool, we disabled that capability due to the potential for misuse with having this information readily accessible in the game and in real time. Encounter logging provides a deep look into the same data, but external to the game and not in true real time. We believe these distinctions will swing the balance back towards using a tool like this for constructive purposes rather than nefarious ones. Additionally, we have added a setting located in the Combat settings menu that hides your character name from encounter logs. This means any combat events that are logged while you are present will display anonymously.

But, we have one of the Developers of the tool admitting that a very close to real time application is possible and we all know there is going to be someone out there who is going to make an Addon to take advantage of that.

Kihra wrote: »

DarkerDreams wrote: »

So you might not be able to have "real time" logging but you can sure get pretty close to it. As the log is written every time logging is stopped, it's not going to take much effort to write an addon that keeps starting, stopping, and analyzing it in almost real time.

This isn't necessary. Live logging works just fine. In dungeons it will lag a bit more, since the file won't flush to disk until enough events have accumulated, but for trials, you can evaluate stuff right after the pull just fine.

Again.. I'm not saying you can't have your tool. But I am saying ZOS needs to create a Complete Opt-Out of any recording for those who don't want anything to do with it.
This will change nothing for those of you who want to use the tool in Trials Progression runs because you'll just make it a requirement to be in the guild Core runs anyways; and those who don't want to agree, it will be up to you whether you allow them to run or not. Just like you don't take a low DPS player. No difference.

But you don't need to record encounters with random players. You don't need to record anything but your own performance in any other dungeon unless everyone else agrees. Kihra already stated things can be done where it will show the buffs you get on your character while not showing the other players data.

A complete Opt-out is not unreasonable and it's for ZOS' own protection that they create one.

WrathOfInnos · April 2019

Threads like this make me so curious what kind of wacky builds people are running, to have this much concern over their gear and actions being exposed (even without their name). I guess we’ll find out soon, haha.

templesus · April 2019

Kihra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

[
The fact is Zos' logging system will even collect data from players that just happen to be nearby and not grouped with you. That is how poorly they set this up. This has been tested on the PTS. Pitiful.

You see I have played a lesser game that had a better design to their parsing system. Anyone could collect their own parse and upload the data to see it. What was also great was the same system allows a raid group to join together and collect a group parse.

So the people who have been selling you on the idea that this full opt in is required is feeding you and everyone else a line of bull. The only reason ESO's new system has to gather everyone's information is because Zos was down right lazy in how they approached this. As a result you are getting a second rate system. I laugh at how Zos is selling us their indolent work and everyone is so excited about this. It is a sad laugh.

This logging system could have been so much better.

You keep throwing around terms like "lazy", "poorly designed", etc., but what you really mean is "implemented in a way I don't agree with." These aren't lazy design decisions. They're required for a complete picture of what's actually going on.

I assume the game you keep mentioning is SWTOR, which allows you to log only yourself, and then tools exist that can help you see everyone's DPS combined. SWTOR does not have a well-designed logging system. In fact, it's really terrible, and that's actually why I've never bothered to build a site for SWTOR.

(1) Everyone in SWTOR has to log. That means you force every person in the raid to be running logs instead of just one person.
(2) SWTOR does not log enemy actions or show you enemy boss buffs. You can't get any kind of coherent picture of boss behavior, since you can't see anything the NPCs and bosses do to each other or to themselves.
(3) While it's easy to merge logs from multiple people simply to show DPS numbers, trying to merge the logs back into a coherent full event view is borderline impossible, especially since the timestamps use the client clock, and the events are often delivered in a slightly different order to each client.

My site supports many features that simply would not be possible with a logging system like SWTOR's, from focusing in on specific narrow timelines to seeing what's going on in combat replay. These features depend on having a complete view of the battlefield, and that's what a common sense logging approach *should* provide.

It's actually good design to log everything going on around the logger, since that always paints a complete picture and only requires one person to deal with the hassle of logging in order to get that complete picture. Imagine having 12 people log, and then Bob disconnects, so oops you just lost Bob's data. You're dependent on all 12 people in the raid having flawless internet, instead of being dependent on only one person.

The "log everything around the logger" approach is how logging works in most MMOs that implemented logging, such as World of Warcraft, FFXIV, Wildstar, Rift, etc.

This analysis goes far beyond just DPS, and there's entirely too much focus being placed on that, when it's just one small aspect of what the analysis features of my site provide.

Keep up the good work. I as well as countless others cannot wait for this to be implemented, and imo the current design is perfect. Thanks for your hard work on the site and @ZOS_BobbyWeir for your hard work on the in game aspect of it.

Now please port it to console 😆

idk · April 2019

Kihra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

[
The fact is Zos' logging system will even collect data from players that just happen to be nearby and not grouped with you. That is how poorly they set this up. This has been tested on the PTS. Pitiful.

You see I have played a lesser game that had a better design to their parsing system. Anyone could collect their own parse and upload the data to see it. What was also great was the same system allows a raid group to join together and collect a group parse.

So the people who have been selling you on the idea that this full opt in is required is feeding you and everyone else a line of bull. The only reason ESO's new system has to gather everyone's information is because Zos was down right lazy in how they approached this. As a result you are getting a second rate system. I laugh at how Zos is selling us their indolent work and everyone is so excited about this. It is a sad laugh.

This logging system could have been so much better.

You keep throwing around terms like "lazy", "poorly designed", etc., but what you really mean is "implemented in a way I don't agree with." These aren't lazy design decisions. They're required for a complete picture of what's actually going on.

That is not what I mean at all. If you have read what I have said, and repeated in multiple posts here, that I have seen it done better. I think what SWTOR logging has is superior. Mostly because it permits group and solo logging.

You make claims about the activity of the boss but we have seen in boss encounters within ESO that much of the activities in the fights can be logged. We have addons that tell us when they are happening because players have been able to log them. Even at that, it can be set up so the log captures boss activity if it can do so now. All that would entail is database settings and if you were able to create this site you would understand that is very possible.

Further, the current design, as I have correctly stated, is not favorable for solo parsing in any context If a player not grouped while logging their solo parse and anyone is in the doing anything information from both players is logged. This has been 85"]demonstrated on the PTS and shortly afterwards[/url] Bobby announced the default setting in game would be for Opt out.

Granted, I understand that all of this is really setup for how Zos already set things up and is probably unwilling to change it. We have seen the results of their dedication to excellence with the original GF, the current GF bug lasting almost 2 years and the current enhanced in-combat bug that even persists through death being in game for more than 6 months.

Regardless of the design, these differences is why anyone should be able to truly opt out and not have their data logged by another. Besides making sense for the greater gaming population, any raid group what wants to log the fight would require their group to be opted in anyhow so it does not harm anyone. There is not rational argument against this as it is possible and does not harm those who would most benefit from this tool.

And yes, I agree it is great to have a group parsing tool. I am not arguing against that. Just that there are worthy improvements that should be made.

VaranisArano · April 2019

I'm delighted that ZOS made the default setting Anonymous.

And...that's about the extent of my concerns with the Encounter Log!

I hope all the players who like using this to improve enjoy it, that add-on makers create addons in accordance with ZOS' concerns about this and prior add-ons, and I hope the players who feel tempted to use it to be jerks - there are always jerks - don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Its a step in the right direction for ESO, a step away from obfuscating combat and how to progress into harder content, while still maintaining the level of player privacy we currently have.

Letho2469 · April 2019

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Whether or not it is ZOS' data or not, if it can be used to identify me or my username it is then subject to Privacy laws. Nothing bypasses that. Additionally, it still does not grant ZOS an automatic pass on allowing a Third Party the right to have that data, nor for another Player to download it without my Meaningful Consent. They don't have that.
[...]

Wrong. The information passed to esologs.com does NOT contain any possibilities of linking your username to your real name or any data that you passed to ZOS upon registration for ESO. All data provided to esologs.com is ZOS's property, you do not own any rights or licences, they can do with that data what they want. Only your registration data (username, adress, bank account, etc.) is excluded from that.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Again.. I'm not saying you can't have your tool. But I am saying ZOS needs to create a Complete Opt-Out of any recording for those who don't want anything to do with it.
This will change nothing for those of you who want to use the tool in Trials Progression runs because you'll just make it a requirement to be in the guild Core runs anyways; and those who don't want to agree, it will be up to you whether you allow them to run or not. Just like you don't take a low DPS player. No difference. [...]

I totally agree with you on that.

LiquidPony · April 2019

idk wrote: »

Kihra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

[
The fact is Zos' logging system will even collect data from players that just happen to be nearby and not grouped with you. That is how poorly they set this up. This has been tested on the PTS. Pitiful.

You see I have played a lesser game that had a better design to their parsing system. Anyone could collect their own parse and upload the data to see it. What was also great was the same system allows a raid group to join together and collect a group parse.

So the people who have been selling you on the idea that this full opt in is required is feeding you and everyone else a line of bull. The only reason ESO's new system has to gather everyone's information is because Zos was down right lazy in how they approached this. As a result you are getting a second rate system. I laugh at how Zos is selling us their indolent work and everyone is so excited about this. It is a sad laugh.

This logging system could have been so much better.

You keep throwing around terms like "lazy", "poorly designed", etc., but what you really mean is "implemented in a way I don't agree with." These aren't lazy design decisions. They're required for a complete picture of what's actually going on.

That is not what I mean at all. If you have read what I have said, and repeated in multiple posts here, that I have seen it done better. I think what SWTOR logging has is superior. Mostly because it permits group and solo logging.

You make claims about the activity of the boss but we have seen in boss encounters within ESO that much of the activities in the fights can be logged. We have addons that tell us when they are happening because players have been able to log them. Even at that, it can be set up so the log captures boss activity if it can do so now. All that would entail is database settings and if you were able to create this site you would understand that is very possible.

Further, the current design, as I have correctly stated, is not favorable for solo parsing in any context If a player not grouped while logging their solo parse and anyone is in the doing anything information from both players is logged. This has been 85"]demonstrated on the PTS and shortly afterwards[/url] Bobby announced the default setting in game would be for Opt out.

Granted, I understand that all of this is really setup for how Zos already set things up and is probably unwilling to change it. We have seen the results of their dedication to excellence with the original GF, the current GF bug lasting almost 2 years and the current enhanced in-combat bug that even persists through death being in game for more than 6 months.

Regardless of the design, these differences is why anyone should be able to truly opt out and not have their data logged by another. Besides making sense for the greater gaming population, any raid group what wants to log the fight would require their group to be opted in anyhow so it does not harm anyone. There is not rational argument against this as it is possible and does not harm those who would most benefit from this tool.

And yes, I agree it is great to have a group parsing tool. I am not arguing against that. Just that there are worthy improvements that should be made.

You keep talking about "parsing". Why does everyone have tunnel-vision on that particular aspect of the Encounter Logs?

So far, in my experience, it's one of the least-useful things in it. We've had fantastic parsing tools forever.

Beyond that, you keep saying that the logging system could be "designed better" by allowing people to completely opt out of logging, but I don't think you actually understand the implications of that design decision.

The obvious one first: how do you log PvP encounters if anyone is opted out?

And beyond that, there are many things that I would think should be obvious but clearly are not. For starters: support roles. I'm a tank, why did I lose aggro? Did someone taunt or did I overtaunt or make a mistake? I'm a healer, is that effect purgeable? How would I know that if my targets are opted out? How much healing am I doing? How would I know that if my targets are opted out? The boss just jumped across the room or reset, why did it do that? How would I know that if its target is opted out?

The idea of "solo logging" is just so completely diametric to the concept of an MMO that I'm honestly baffled that it's even a suggestion. Everything you do and see is deeply interconnected with the actions of other players. And that's why I'm so perplexed. If I'm in some random Overland area, and I'm logging, and someone else comes along ... why does it matter if they're being logged? I'm there, in real-time. I can already see what they're doing. I can see what skills they're casting, what effects are proccing, what buffs or debuffs they're putting on the boss. And they can be anonymous in the logs if they want. They can't be anonymous in-game.

Setting the default logging status to "Anonymous" was more than enough to satisfy any concerns about privacy. This new tack of "the whole thing is poorly designed" is just myopic nonsense.

VaranisArano · April 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Kihra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

[
The fact is Zos' logging system will even collect data from players that just happen to be nearby and not grouped with you. That is how poorly they set this up. This has been tested on the PTS. Pitiful.

You see I have played a lesser game that had a better design to their parsing system. Anyone could collect their own parse and upload the data to see it. What was also great was the same system allows a raid group to join together and collect a group parse.

So the people who have been selling you on the idea that this full opt in is required is feeding you and everyone else a line of bull. The only reason ESO's new system has to gather everyone's information is because Zos was down right lazy in how they approached this. As a result you are getting a second rate system. I laugh at how Zos is selling us their indolent work and everyone is so excited about this. It is a sad laugh.

This logging system could have been so much better.

You keep throwing around terms like "lazy", "poorly designed", etc., but what you really mean is "implemented in a way I don't agree with." These aren't lazy design decisions. They're required for a complete picture of what's actually going on.

That is not what I mean at all. If you have read what I have said, and repeated in multiple posts here, that I have seen it done better. I think what SWTOR logging has is superior. Mostly because it permits group and solo logging.

You make claims about the activity of the boss but we have seen in boss encounters within ESO that much of the activities in the fights can be logged. We have addons that tell us when they are happening because players have been able to log them. Even at that, it can be set up so the log captures boss activity if it can do so now. All that would entail is database settings and if you were able to create this site you would understand that is very possible.

Further, the current design, as I have correctly stated, is not favorable for solo parsing in any context If a player not grouped while logging their solo parse and anyone is in the doing anything information from both players is logged. This has been 85"]demonstrated on the PTS and shortly afterwards[/url] Bobby announced the default setting in game would be for Opt out.

Granted, I understand that all of this is really setup for how Zos already set things up and is probably unwilling to change it. We have seen the results of their dedication to excellence with the original GF, the current GF bug lasting almost 2 years and the current enhanced in-combat bug that even persists through death being in game for more than 6 months.

Regardless of the design, these differences is why anyone should be able to truly opt out and not have their data logged by another. Besides making sense for the greater gaming population, any raid group what wants to log the fight would require their group to be opted in anyhow so it does not harm anyone. There is not rational argument against this as it is possible and does not harm those who would most benefit from this tool.

And yes, I agree it is great to have a group parsing tool. I am not arguing against that. Just that there are worthy improvements that should be made.

You keep talking about "parsing". Why does everyone have tunnel-vision on that particular aspect of the Encounter Logs?

So far, in my experience, it's one of the least-useful things in it. We've had fantastic parsing tools forever.

Beyond that, you keep saying that the logging system could be "designed better" by allowing people to completely opt out of logging, but I don't think you actually understand the implications of that design decision.

The obvious one first: how do you log PvP encounters if anyone is opted out?

And beyond that, there are many things that I would think should be obvious but clearly are not. For starters: support roles. I'm a tank, why did I lose aggro? Did someone taunt or did I overtaunt or make a mistake? I'm a healer, is that effect purgeable? How would I know that if my targets are opted out? How much healing am I doing? How would I know that if my targets are opted out? The boss just jumped across the room or reset, why did it do that? How would I know that if its target is opted out?

The idea of "solo logging" is just so completely diametric to the concept of an MMO that I'm honestly baffled that it's even a suggestion. Everything you do and see is deeply interconnected with the actions of other players. And that's why I'm so perplexed. If I'm in some random Overland area, and I'm logging, and someone else comes along ... why does it matter if they're being logged? I'm there, in real-time. I can already see what they're doing. I can see what skills they're casting, what effects are proccing, what buffs or debuffs they're putting on the boss. And they can be anonymous in the logs if they want. They can't be anonymous in-game.

Setting the default logging status to "Anonymous" was more than enough to satisfy any concerns about privacy. This new tack of "the whole thing is poorly designed" is just myopic nonsense.

My two cents: Everyone focuses on the DPS parsing aspect of encounter logging, because in our experience, that's the thing that causes the most issues, especially in dungeon finder.

Players tend to be more toxic about "low" DPS or DPS that doesn't meet their standards, and that's the very issue that got the original real-time, in game, combat log addon removed.

Tanks and Healers tend to get kicked only when its obvious that they aren't doing their job. Nobody in a random dungeon cares what my tank's buff uptimes are - just that I'm holding aggro, staying alive, and following mechanics, and no one needs a parse or combat log to see that.

idk · April 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Kihra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

[
The fact is Zos' logging system will even collect data from players that just happen to be nearby and not grouped with you. That is how poorly they set this up. This has been tested on the PTS. Pitiful.

You see I have played a lesser game that had a better design to their parsing system. Anyone could collect their own parse and upload the data to see it. What was also great was the same system allows a raid group to join together and collect a group parse.

So the people who have been selling you on the idea that this full opt in is required is feeding you and everyone else a line of bull. The only reason ESO's new system has to gather everyone's information is because Zos was down right lazy in how they approached this. As a result you are getting a second rate system. I laugh at how Zos is selling us their indolent work and everyone is so excited about this. It is a sad laugh.

This logging system could have been so much better.

You keep throwing around terms like "lazy", "poorly designed", etc., but what you really mean is "implemented in a way I don't agree with." These aren't lazy design decisions. They're required for a complete picture of what's actually going on.

That is not what I mean at all. If you have read what I have said, and repeated in multiple posts here, that I have seen it done better. I think what SWTOR logging has is superior. Mostly because it permits group and solo logging.

You make claims about the activity of the boss but we have seen in boss encounters within ESO that much of the activities in the fights can be logged. We have addons that tell us when they are happening because players have been able to log them. Even at that, it can be set up so the log captures boss activity if it can do so now. All that would entail is database settings and if you were able to create this site you would understand that is very possible.

Further, the current design, as I have correctly stated, is not favorable for solo parsing in any context If a player not grouped while logging their solo parse and anyone is in the doing anything information from both players is logged. This has been 85"]demonstrated on the PTS and shortly afterwards[/url] Bobby announced the default setting in game would be for Opt out.

Granted, I understand that all of this is really setup for how Zos already set things up and is probably unwilling to change it. We have seen the results of their dedication to excellence with the original GF, the current GF bug lasting almost 2 years and the current enhanced in-combat bug that even persists through death being in game for more than 6 months.

Regardless of the design, these differences is why anyone should be able to truly opt out and not have their data logged by another. Besides making sense for the greater gaming population, any raid group what wants to log the fight would require their group to be opted in anyhow so it does not harm anyone. There is not rational argument against this as it is possible and does not harm those who would most benefit from this tool.

And yes, I agree it is great to have a group parsing tool. I am not arguing against that. Just that there are worthy improvements that should be made.

You keep talking about "parsing". Why does everyone have tunnel-vision on that particular aspect of the Encounter Logs?

I have spoken about the entire picture, You are just focusing on one aspect where I note one of the flaws in the design that you clearly are more than willing top accept. If you want to settle for second rate then by all means, enjoy. That is exactly what your commentary I edited out was demonstrating.

Darlon · April 2019

Chivana wrote: »

I'm pretty sure, a full opt-out would be possible very quickly, if everybody cancelled their Elsweyr preorder because of the forced logging. I did and got my money back.

You do realise that this is a base game feature coming with elsweyr? So you will get this anyways in the game.

And people will not stop preordering because of this....

Nebthet78 · April 2019

Letho2469 wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Whether or not it is ZOS' data or not, if it can be used to identify me or my username it is then subject to Privacy laws. Nothing bypasses that. Additionally, it still does not grant ZOS an automatic pass on allowing a Third Party the right to have that data, nor for another Player to download it without my Meaningful Consent. They don't have that.
[...]

Wrong. The information passed to esologs.com does NOT contain any possibilities of linking your username to your real name or any data that you passed to ZOS upon registration for ESO. All data provided to esologs.com is ZOS's property, you do not own any rights or licences, they can do with that data what they want. Only your registration data (username, adress, bank account, etc.) is excluded from that.

Actually, you are incorrect.. If you agree to not be Anonymous, or forget to switch it off when you want to be, the text logs recorded by players actually contain both your Username (@name) and your Character name and all information relating to your character. This has been tested on the PTS and verified.

Usernames are actually Protected under Privacy Act in the EU and Canada. They are considered Privately-Identifiable Information (PII) and are protected by those countries laws because they can be used in combination with other information sources to cross reference to Identify an Individual; their physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity.

These are laws which ZOS must follow or they can be hit with large fines. Those laws include requirement of Meaningful Consent to be given by the Account Holder to allow any information ZOS collects about myself or my game play to be given to any Third Party for anything that is non-essential for the game itsself to work. They just can't give whomever they want access to it any time they want.

Only usernames which are system generated, are considered non-PII.

This means, that not only does ZOS have to get my permission to allow another player to download ESOLOGS with my username in it IF I should want to use the service, BUT they must also get my permission to then have that data imported to the Third Party website. Having it set to Anonymous is not enough. If I don't want my game data recorded by another player, they can't force it. There must be an Opt-Out.

The Encounter Logger is not essential for ESO to work. It's nothing more than a Third Party Tool. ESO has not had this logger for 5 years and ZOS isn't doing this logger in house.

There are numerous privacy concerns that need to be addressed by ZOS with this tool. Again, setting to Anonymous is not enough.
Then there is the issue of near real time logging ability that also needs to be addressed and prevented.

ZOS needs to spend the time to fix these issues before they release Elsweyr. If they can't, then I'll say it again, they shouldn't allow it until they do.

MartiniDaniels · April 2019

^ It's "Protected under privacy act etc etc" but look around - there are dozens of popular multiplayer games new and old all legally selling in EU and Canada and ton of them has both dev's and 3pp sites where you just enter username and may see combat statistics for any player, and there is not even an option to turn off this tracking in game.

Nebthet78 · April 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

^ It's "Protected under privacy act etc etc" but look around - there are dozens of popular multiplayer games new and old all legally selling in EU and Canada and ton of them has both dev's and 3pp sites where you just enter username and may see combat statistics for any player, and there is not even an option to turn off this tracking in game.

And many of them are also being hit with fines because of Privacy complaints or have shut down because they cannot afford the costs associated with becoming complaint with the new Privacy laws.
So, if it is found that ZOS is non-complaint in regards to privacy conserns, they have have to outway the cost of any potential fines against the min the future versus the cost of covering their butts now.

ManwithBeard9 · April 2019

Nebthet78 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

^ It's "Protected under privacy act etc etc" but look around - there are dozens of popular multiplayer games new and old all legally selling in EU and Canada and ton of them has both dev's and 3pp sites where you just enter username and may see combat statistics for any player, and there is not even an option to turn off this tracking in game.

And many of them are also being hit with fines because of Privacy complaints or have shut down because they cannot afford the costs associated with becoming complaint with the new Privacy laws.
So, if it is found that ZOS is non-complaint in regards to privacy conserns, they have have to outway the cost of any potential fines against the min the future versus the cost of covering their butts now.

I'm pretty sure the company owned by the company that successfully sued Facebook has its legal bases covered.

LiquidPony · April 2019

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Whether or not it is ZOS' data or not, if it can be used to identify me or my username it is then subject to Privacy laws. Nothing bypasses that. Additionally, it still does not grant ZOS an automatic pass on allowing a Third Party the right to have that data, nor for another Player to download it without my Meaningful Consent. They don't have that.
[...]

Wrong. The information passed to esologs.com does NOT contain any possibilities of linking your username to your real name or any data that you passed to ZOS upon registration for ESO. All data provided to esologs.com is ZOS's property, you do not own any rights or licences, they can do with that data what they want. Only your registration data (username, adress, bank account, etc.) is excluded from that.

Actually, you are incorrect.. If you agree to not be Anonymous, or forget to switch it off when you want to be, the text logs recorded by players actually contain both your Username (@name) and your Character name and all information relating to your character. This has been tested on the PTS and verified.

Usernames are actually Protected under Privacy Act in the EU and Canada. They are considered Privately-Identifiable Information (PII) and are protected by those countries laws because they can be used in combination with other information sources to cross reference to Identify an Individual; their physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity.

These are laws which ZOS must follow or they can be hit with large fines. Those laws include requirement of Meaningful Consent to be given by the Account Holder to allow any information ZOS collects about myself or my game play to be given to any Third Party for anything that is non-essential for the game itsself to work. They just can't give whomever they want access to it any time they want.

Only usernames which are system generated, are considered non-PII.

This means, that not only does ZOS have to get my permission to allow another player to download ESOLOGS with my username in it IF I should want to use the service, BUT they must also get my permission to then have that data imported to the Third Party website. Having it set to Anonymous is not enough. If I don't want my game data recorded by another player, they can't force it. There must be an Opt-Out.

The Encounter Logger is not essential for ESO to work. It's nothing more than a Third Party Tool. ESO has not had this logger for 5 years and ZOS isn't doing this logger in house.

There are numerous privacy concerns that need to be addressed by ZOS with this tool. Again, setting to Anonymous is not enough.
Then there is the issue of near real time logging ability that also needs to be addressed and prevented.

ZOS needs to spend the time to fix these issues before they release Elsweyr. If they can't, then I'll say it again, they shouldn't allow it until they do.

It's not personal data if you are anonymous, because the data can't be linked to an "identifiable person".

And you are anonymous by default.

In order for logger to log any of your "personal data" you have to: 1) Accept the terms of a Privacy Policy that clearly states what data is being collected and how it is being used and shared, and 2) Go into your settings and intentionally set Encounter Logging-->Appear Anonymously to OFF.

The problem has been solved.

Just stop. Your endless regurgitation of misleading information isn't going to change anything. Encounter Logging is not going to go away just because you don't like it, no matter what quasi-legal mumbo-jumbo you invent to hide behind.

DeathStalker · April 2019

jirusan wrote: »

I don't like having my data uploaded despite my opt-out to another shabby Internet company to be fingerprinted, profiled, and monetized. I don't know you, I don't have a contract with you, I don't trust you, and I'd rather have nothing to do with you.

This^

Letho2469 · April 2019

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Whether or not it is ZOS' data or not, if it can be used to identify me or my username it is then subject to Privacy laws. Nothing bypasses that. Additionally, it still does not grant ZOS an automatic pass on allowing a Third Party the right to have that data, nor for another Player to download it without my Meaningful Consent. They don't have that.
[...]

Wrong. The information passed to esologs.com does NOT contain any possibilities of linking your username to your real name or any data that you passed to ZOS upon registration for ESO. All data provided to esologs.com is ZOS's property, you do not own any rights or licences, they can do with that data what they want. Only your registration data (username, adress, bank account, etc.) is excluded from that.

[...]

Usernames are actually Protected under Privacy Act in the EU and Canada. They are considered Privately-Identifiable Information (PII) and are protected by those countries laws because they can be used in combination with other information sources to cross reference to Identify an Individual; their physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity.

In ZOS's case @names are not PII as the only platform where they can be linked to PII is ZOS's databases, which are not accessible by any person except ZOS employees. Customers have the right to demand their data being anonymized, but that is an option that ZOS provides.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

These are laws which ZOS must follow or they can be hit with large fines. Those laws include requirement of Meaningful Consent to be given by the Account Holder to allow any information ZOS collects about myself or my game play to be given to any Third Party for anything that is non-essential for the game itsself to work. They just can't give whomever they want access to it any time they want.

You agreed to the TOS. Nobody forces you to play the game, if you do not agree with your data being shared anonymously. You think you are smarter than the companies law department? Well, then go ahead and sue

Nebthet78 wrote: »

There are numerous privacy concerns that need to be addressed by ZOS with this tool. Again, setting to Anonymous is not enough. [...]

Nothing more but a claim on your side. Setting it to anonymous is enough, since your username is not published anymore.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

^ It's "Protected under privacy act etc etc" but look around - there are dozens of popular multiplayer games new and old all legally selling in EU and Canada and ton of them has both dev's and 3pp sites where you just enter username and may see combat statistics for any player, and there is not even an option to turn off this tracking in game.

And many of them are also being hit with fines because of Privacy complaints or have shut down because they cannot afford the costs associated with becoming complaint with the new Privacy laws.
So, if it is found that ZOS is non-complaint in regards to privacy conserns, they have have to outway the cost of any potential fines against the min the future versus the cost of covering their butts now.

Aaaah right, that must be the reason why World of Warcraft has been shut down six years ago.... oh wait

Nebthet78 · April 2019

Letho2469 wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Whether or not it is ZOS' data or not, if it can be used to identify me or my username it is then subject to Privacy laws. Nothing bypasses that. Additionally, it still does not grant ZOS an automatic pass on allowing a Third Party the right to have that data, nor for another Player to download it without my Meaningful Consent. They don't have that.
[...]

Wrong. The information passed to esologs.com does NOT contain any possibilities of linking your username to your real name or any data that you passed to ZOS upon registration for ESO. All data provided to esologs.com is ZOS's property, you do not own any rights or licences, they can do with that data what they want. Only your registration data (username, adress, bank account, etc.) is excluded from that.

[...]

Usernames are actually Protected under Privacy Act in the EU and Canada. They are considered Privately-Identifiable Information (PII) and are protected by those countries laws because they can be used in combination with other information sources to cross reference to Identify an Individual; their physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity.

In ZOS's case @names are not PII as the only platform where they can be linked to PII is ZOS's databases, which are not accessible by any person except ZOS employees. Customers have the right to demand their data being anonymized, but that is an option that ZOS provides.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

These are laws which ZOS must follow or they can be hit with large fines. Those laws include requirement of Meaningful Consent to be given by the Account Holder to allow any information ZOS collects about myself or my game play to be given to any Third Party for anything that is non-essential for the game itsself to work. They just can't give whomever they want access to it any time they want.

You agreed to the TOS. Nobody forces you to play the game, if you do not agree with your data being shared anonymously. You think you are smarter than the companies law department? Well, then go ahead and sue

Nebthet78 wrote: »

There are numerous privacy concerns that need to be addressed by ZOS with this tool. Again, setting to Anonymous is not enough. [...]

Nothing more but a claim on your side. Setting it to anonymous is enough, since your username is not published anymore.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

^ It's "Protected under privacy act etc etc" but look around - there are dozens of popular multiplayer games new and old all legally selling in EU and Canada and ton of them has both dev's and 3pp sites where you just enter username and may see combat statistics for any player, and there is not even an option to turn off this tracking in game.

And many of them are also being hit with fines because of Privacy complaints or have shut down because they cannot afford the costs associated with becoming complaint with the new Privacy laws.
So, if it is found that ZOS is non-complaint in regards to privacy conserns, they have have to outway the cost of any potential fines against the min the future versus the cost of covering their butts now.

Aaaah right, that must be the reason why World of Warcraft has been shut down six years ago.... oh wait

@names are our usernames and they are indeed PII under my Country's Privacy rules.

Why don't you do a little research and educate yourself. I'm not going to spoon feed you. Go research Privacy rights for different Countries.

WOW is an old game. Made before the new Privacy Acts took effect and a lot of these Third Party sites were also made before these acts took effect. Should someone wish to complain to them to their Country's Privacy Commission and have an investigation started then that is up to them. I'm also sure that WOW has updated their Privacy standards over the last couple of years as well.

Now.. If ZOS Encrypts all our usernames and assigns them a temporary ID number they could get around it. But will they put the effort in to do that? That way our data is not provided to a Third Party without our explicit permission.

Letho2469 · April 2019

Nebthet78 wrote: »

[...]

@names are our usernames and they are indeed PII under my Country's Privacy rules.

Why don't you do a little research and educate yourself. I'm not going to spoon feed you. Go research Privacy rights for different Countries.

Because, appareantly contrary to you, i do know that non-lawyers are not able to interpret the fine nuances of law. You know what? As I said before: Please, sue! I BEG YOU! Do it in public, make my day!

Nebthet78 wrote: »

WOW is an old game. Made before the new Privacy Acts took effect and a lot of these Third Party sites were also made before these acts took effect. Should someone wish to complain to them to their Country's Privacy Commission and have an investigation started then that is up to them. I'm also sure that WOW has updated their Privacy standards over the last couple of years as well.

Aha that must be the reason why Facebook and other companies were excluded from the new EU privacy act. Oh... again... wait.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Now.. If ZOS Encrypts all our usernames and assigns them a temporary ID number they could get around it. But will they put the effort in to do that? That way our data is not provided to a Third Party without our explicit permission.

Please stop embarassing yourself by thinking you were smarter than ZOS's law department! You are provided the option to make your data anonymous and - I am stating a friend of mine who is a studied lawyer - that does indeed suffice as no PII data is passed or linkable to your natural person by using different platforms. I say it again and for the very last time: Data generated by gameplay falls under the TOS and hence is usage data and NOT PII.

Feanor · April 2019

I find the whole fuss over this totally irrational.

kathandira · April 2019

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Usernames are actually Protected under Privacy Act in the EU and Canada. They are considered Privately-Identifiable Information (PII) and are protected by those countries laws because they can be used in combination with other information sources to cross reference to Identify an Individual; their physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity.

So when I record game footage and put it on youtube, and you are in the video, with your username and your character name, how does that work? Would I have to censor your name out of my video?

Letho2469 · April 2019

kathandira wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Usernames are actually Protected under Privacy Act in the EU and Canada. They are considered Privately-Identifiable Information (PII) and are protected by those countries laws because they can be used in combination with other information sources to cross reference to Identify an Individual; their physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity.

So when I record game footage and put it on youtube, and you are in the video, with your username and your character name, how does that work? Would I have to censor your name out of my video?

No. Unless ZOS asks you to remove the video everything is fine.

royo · April 2019

The website is so good. I've been testing it on the PTS and it really is amazing. Heals, damage done, resurrections, debuffs, etc. I already know everyone's dps but the other stuff is fantastic.

kathandira · April 2019

Letho2469 wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Usernames are actually Protected under Privacy Act in the EU and Canada. They are considered Privately-Identifiable Information (PII) and are protected by those countries laws because they can be used in combination with other information sources to cross reference to Identify an Individual; their physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity.

So when I record game footage and put it on youtube, and you are in the video, with your username and your character name, how does that work? Would I have to censor your name out of my video?

No. Unless ZOS asks you to remove the video everything is fine.

I'm more suggesting the issue of Privacy of a players username being displayed. People are concerned that since their username is shown in the metrics, it is an issue. But their username is easily displayed in screenshots and videos on a regular basis.

Letho2469 · April 2019

kathandira wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Usernames are actually Protected under Privacy Act in the EU and Canada. They are considered Privately-Identifiable Information (PII) and are protected by those countries laws because they can be used in combination with other information sources to cross reference to Identify an Individual; their physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity.

So when I record game footage and put it on youtube, and you are in the video, with your username and your character name, how does that work? Would I have to censor your name out of my video?

No. Unless ZOS asks you to remove the video everything is fine.

I'm more suggesting the issue of Privacy of a players username being displayed. People are concerned that since their username is shown in the metrics, it is an issue. But their username is easily displayed in screenshots and videos on a regular basis.

Frankly I don't understand what you wanna say^^ If ppl are concerned about their username being shown, they can set their client to "anonymous" and their @name won't be displayed in logs anymore.