Whirling Blades

Arcanasx · April 2019

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

I like it.
Where were you all these years when DW needed a spammable?
People dont care to improve features. They just care to nerf things they dont use.

Its almost as if some people want to have all the attention focused on a skill they don't use and try to get it nerfed while other skills that are also very strong which they may like to use don't get any attention brought to them.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2019

@Arcanasx But have you taken a look at the tooltip values for brawler? Ive had it where its tooltip damage was over 9k, plus a 10k shield on top of that, against a single target. AOE. Damage. With. Large Shield. As. Spammable.

how are you getting a 10k ward from brawler? my stamplar dps has a 5k at base. with one target that is is 7.5k, see here-

you also lose out on a bleed if you use brawler.

psychotic13 · April 2019

Arcanasx wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

There was Lico's rotation on stamDK which self-explains everything. Starting from 85% he starts using whirling blades as a spammable. AOE. Execute. As. Spammable. At 85%. What other arguments are needed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UakXKgngwPo

This shows that whirling blades is very strong against high health stationary target dummy's that don't fight back, but there's a lot more to this game than that. Yes I'm sure it will be strong skill for a stam dps for dungeons/trials as the execute mechanic allows you to squeeze in a lot of extra damage from large boss health pools, and it will be a good pvp skill too.

But have you taken a look at the tooltip values for brawler? Ive had it where its tooltip damage was over 9k, plus a 10k shield on top of that, against a single target. AOE. Damage. With. Large Shield. As. Spammable.

In a pvp scenario, I could use this offensive AOE every second, which also would give me a 5k shield every second, after battle spirit. And that's just against one player. Now imagine having your vigor, forward momentum, and other Hots, having high resistances, maybe even troll king on top. And there's also that masters two handed weapon to consider as well.

I'm just seeing more tunnel vision from whirling blades alarmists being irrational wanting to specifically nerf that one ability without seeing the bigger picture. If whirling blades is over performing, so are other AOEs. And to try and get whirling blades nerfed while ignoring the power of other AOEs and not considering ALL SCENARIOS is a very bad idea. That's my argument.

Whirling blades takes the limelight cause its already a problem in PvP and it has the execute scaling. But youre totally correct, AoE in general will be over the top. Ive heard cleave is strong, and even ridiculous when you have the master 2h. Power extraction/sap has been shown to be strong, same with noxious breath.

I dont understand how you can make an AoE do as much damage, argubely more than a spammable. But to multiple opponents, wheres the logic?

Arcanasx · April 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Arcanasx But have you taken a look at the tooltip values for brawler? Ive had it where its tooltip damage was over 9k, plus a 10k shield on top of that, against a single target. AOE. Damage. With. Large Shield. As. Spammable.

how are you getting a 10k ward from brawler? my stamplar dps has a 5k at base. with one target that is is 7.5k, see here-

you also lose out on a bleed if you use brawler.

You can get a higher shield value with higher weapon damage, and theres also that shield boost CP to consider as well. Honestly with a shield that high, brawler will be the better morph for most PvP scenarios that I can think of. The carve morph would generally be better for PvE scenarios, except perhaps vMA where the shield would help quite a lot.

I will also add that Carve looks like it should work as a fire and forget, refresh when duration has expired, while brawler is to be used as an actual spammable.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2019

Arcanasx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Arcanasx But have you taken a look at the tooltip values for brawler? Ive had it where its tooltip damage was over 9k, plus a 10k shield on top of that, against a single target. AOE. Damage. With. Large Shield. As. Spammable.

how are you getting a 10k ward from brawler? my stamplar dps has a 5k at base. with one target that is is 7.5k, see here-

you also lose out on a bleed if you use brawler.

You can get a higher shield value with higher weapon damage, and theres also that shield boost CP to consider as well. Honestly with a shield that high, brawler will be the better morph for most PvP scenarios that I can think of. The carve morph would generally be better for PvE scenarios, except perhaps vMA where the shield would help quite a lot.

I will also add that Carve looks like it should work as a fire and forget, refresh when duration has expired, while brawler is to be used as an actual spammable.

yes, i understand that you get a higher ward with more weapon damage, i ought to point out you get that with max stam too, the ward takes both into account but this is a stam dps, i have almost 4k base weapon damage(no buffs eg major/minor brutality) and around 35k stam. could you link a screen on your 10k ward?

Arcanasx · April 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Arcanasx But have you taken a look at the tooltip values for brawler? Ive had it where its tooltip damage was over 9k, plus a 10k shield on top of that, against a single target. AOE. Damage. With. Large Shield. As. Spammable.

how are you getting a 10k ward from brawler? my stamplar dps has a 5k at base. with one target that is is 7.5k, see here-

you also lose out on a bleed if you use brawler.

You can get a higher shield value with higher weapon damage, and theres also that shield boost CP to consider as well. Honestly with a shield that high, brawler will be the better morph for most PvP scenarios that I can think of. The carve morph would generally be better for PvE scenarios, except perhaps vMA where the shield would help quite a lot.

I will also add that Carve looks like it should work as a fire and forget, refresh when duration has expired, while brawler is to be used as an actual spammable.

yes, i understand that you get a higher ward with more weapon damage, i ought to point out you get that with max stam too, the ward takes both into account but this is a stam dps, i have almost 4k base weapon damage(no buffs eg major/minor brutality) and around 35k stam. could you link a screen on your 10k ward?

Approximately 5280 weapon damage, 32.3k max stamina, with 16% shield boost from CP.

Now imagine in a BG; even with lower stats if you're using the masters two handed set and hitting say, 4 players, you can see how tremendously strong this skill is. This is in my opinion potentially much stronger in most PvP scenarios than the PTS whirling blades.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2019

Arcanasx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Arcanasx But have you taken a look at the tooltip values for brawler? Ive had it where its tooltip damage was over 9k, plus a 10k shield on top of that, against a single target. AOE. Damage. With. Large Shield. As. Spammable.

how are you getting a 10k ward from brawler? my stamplar dps has a 5k at base. with one target that is is 7.5k, see here-

you also lose out on a bleed if you use brawler.

You can get a higher shield value with higher weapon damage, and theres also that shield boost CP to consider as well. Honestly with a shield that high, brawler will be the better morph for most PvP scenarios that I can think of. The carve morph would generally be better for PvE scenarios, except perhaps vMA where the shield would help quite a lot.

I will also add that Carve looks like it should work as a fire and forget, refresh when duration has expired, while brawler is to be used as an actual spammable.

yes, i understand that you get a higher ward with more weapon damage, i ought to point out you get that with max stam too, the ward takes both into account but this is a stam dps, i have almost 4k base weapon damage(no buffs eg major/minor brutality) and around 35k stam. could you link a screen on your 10k ward?

all right thanks. is this an actual, functional build or just for screenshots? i am curious because on my build, my damage from the skill is much higher then the ward, yours it is the opposite.

Approximately 5280 weapon damage, 32.8k stam, with 16% shield boost from CP.

all right, is that something you will actually be doing? the bastion cp things?

Arcanasx · April 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Arcanasx But have you taken a look at the tooltip values for brawler? Ive had it where its tooltip damage was over 9k, plus a 10k shield on top of that, against a single target. AOE. Damage. With. Large Shield. As. Spammable.

how are you getting a 10k ward from brawler? my stamplar dps has a 5k at base. with one target that is is 7.5k, see here-

you also lose out on a bleed if you use brawler.

You can get a higher shield value with higher weapon damage, and theres also that shield boost CP to consider as well. Honestly with a shield that high, brawler will be the better morph for most PvP scenarios that I can think of. The carve morph would generally be better for PvE scenarios, except perhaps vMA where the shield would help quite a lot.

I will also add that Carve looks like it should work as a fire and forget, refresh when duration has expired, while brawler is to be used as an actual spammable.

yes, i understand that you get a higher ward with more weapon damage, i ought to point out you get that with max stam too, the ward takes both into account but this is a stam dps, i have almost 4k base weapon damage(no buffs eg major/minor brutality) and around 35k stam. could you link a screen on your 10k ward?

all right thanks. is this an actual, functional build or just for screenshots? i am curious because on my build, my damage from the skill is much higher then the ward, yours it is the opposite.

Approximately 5280 weapon damage, 32.8k stam, with 16% shield boost from CP.

all right, is that something you will actually be doing? the bastion cp things?

I would definitely try this with those stats and with the bastion CP as well. I will probably switch from dual wield to two handed on my stam dk if this comes to live.

GeorgeBlack · April 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

I like it.
Where were you all these years when DW needed a spammable?
People dont care to improve features. They just care to nerf things they dont use.

You won't like it when couple of stamDK's will activate corrosive armor while wearing balorghs and will spin into your ball dealing 6k+ per spin each

I am a stamDK

I would love to see something different than SnB/2h BS 7th Fury spamming Ransack/heroic/bash

techprince · April 2019

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

I like it.
Where were you all these years when DW needed a spammable?
People dont care to improve features. They just care to nerf things they dont use.

You won't like it when couple of stamDK's will activate corrosive armor while wearing balorghs and will spin into your ball dealing 6k+ per spin each

I am a stamDK

I would love to see something different than SnB/2h BS 7th Fury spamming Ransack/heroic/bash

That is a biased opinion. When you use it, its not a problem?

GeorgeBlack · April 2019

techprince wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

I like it.
Where were you all these years when DW needed a spammable?
People dont care to improve features. They just care to nerf things they dont use.

You won't like it when couple of stamDK's will activate corrosive armor while wearing balorghs and will spin into your ball dealing 6k+ per spin each

I am a stamDK

I would love to see something different than SnB/2h BS 7th Fury spamming Ransack/heroic/bash

That is a biased opinion. When you use it, its not a problem?

Mate we have so many more broken AoE stuff that the small radius of whirling blade will make 0 diffrrence in the ball groups.

It will make a difference to those that need a new spammable and it makes me happy.

Once everything else that is wrong with aoe ball groups is fixed, I will make a thread to adress this one as well.

When I was calling for a nerf to Dawnbreaker everybody went nuts. There is nothing wrong with whirling blades.
I hope they improve dizzy swing as well.

Kidgangster101 · April 2019

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

I like it.
Where were you all these years when DW needed a spammable?
People dont care to improve features. They just care to nerf things they dont use.

You won't like it when couple of stamDK's will activate corrosive armor while wearing balorghs and will spin into your ball dealing 6k+ per spin each

I am a stamDK

I would love to see something different than SnB/2h BS 7th Fury spamming Ransack/heroic/bash

That is a biased opinion. When you use it, its not a problem?

Mate we have so many more broken AoE stuff that the small radius of whirling blade will make 0 diffrrence in the ball groups.

It will make a difference to those that need a new spammable and it makes me happy.

Once everything else that is wrong with aoe ball groups is fixed, I will make a thread to adress this one as well.

When I was calling for a nerf to Dawnbreaker everybody went nuts. There is nothing wrong with whirling blades.
I hope they improve dizzy swing as well.

Lol every aoe move needs to be toned down. There is a reason in any other good mmo that aoe dmg does less dmg than a single target ability. For you to say there is nothing wrong with whirling blades is crazy.

Should I equip vicious death and spam whirling blades? It got a 50% dmg increase and the radius of 3m loss isn't big at all. The fact that someone is using it as best class spamable at 85% health is a very bad problem. It takes skill out of the game as long as your using that op skill.

I'm calling it now if these things hit live pve rotations will be boring as every group member will be using aoe moves as their best move almost all the time, then on top of that pvp will be unplayable with all of these aoe. It's basically going to be whatever ball group is more organized or and bomber will be able to kill entire zergs even faster lol. My mag NB bomber is ready for this change if it goes live free easy ap here I come.......

Davadin · April 2019

Arcanasx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Arcanasx But have you taken a look at the tooltip values for brawler? Ive had it where its tooltip damage was over 9k, plus a 10k shield on top of that, against a single target. AOE. Damage. With. Large Shield. As. Spammable.

how are you getting a 10k ward from brawler? my stamplar dps has a 5k at base. with one target that is is 7.5k, see here-

you also lose out on a bleed if you use brawler.

You can get a higher shield value with higher weapon damage, and theres also that shield boost CP to consider as well. Honestly with a shield that high, brawler will be the better morph for most PvP scenarios that I can think of. The carve morph would generally be better for PvE scenarios, except perhaps vMA where the shield would help quite a lot.

I will also add that Carve looks like it should work as a fire and forget, refresh when duration has expired, while brawler is to be used as an actual spammable.

yes, i understand that you get a higher ward with more weapon damage, i ought to point out you get that with max stam too, the ward takes both into account but this is a stam dps, i have almost 4k base weapon damage(no buffs eg major/minor brutality) and around 35k stam. could you link a screen on your 10k ward?

Approximately 5280 weapon damage, 32.3k max stamina, with 16% shield boost from CP.

Now imagine in a BG; even with lower stats if you're using the masters two handed set and hitting say, 4 players, you can see how tremendously strong this skill is. This is in my opinion potentially much stronger in most PvP scenarios than the PTS whirling blades.

Wait.

What's your build?? Is that buffed? 5280 wp damage and 32k stam?
my stamDK needs both major n minor brut to get to 4.5k wep damage, that's on a medium all gold build with infused wd jewels.....

Davadin · April 2019

Arcanasx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Arcanasx But have you taken a look at the tooltip values for brawler? Ive had it where its tooltip damage was over 9k, plus a 10k shield on top of that, against a single target. AOE. Damage. With. Large Shield. As. Spammable.

how are you getting a 10k ward from brawler? my stamplar dps has a 5k at base. with one target that is is 7.5k, see here-

you also lose out on a bleed if you use brawler.

You can get a higher shield value with higher weapon damage, and theres also that shield boost CP to consider as well. Honestly with a shield that high, brawler will be the better morph for most PvP scenarios that I can think of. The carve morph would generally be better for PvE scenarios, except perhaps vMA where the shield would help quite a lot.

I will also add that Carve looks like it should work as a fire and forget, refresh when duration has expired, while brawler is to be used as an actual spammable.

i got Deadly Strike set and 50 point into Thaum CP. I'm a DoT PvP DK.

also got a Master 2H.

I'm drooling at how Carve literally going to bleed people to death, for cheap, while hitting hard as an AoE spammable. otherwise, might just go Reverse Strike as spammable and let Carve fire-n-forget.

But yes, Brawler looks interesting for solo/small group PvP.

I wonder if the shield is spent, can i recharge it back up immediately or i have to wait 6 sec before i can get another shield?

Davadin · April 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

With balorgh proc

this can't go live. period.

kalunte · April 2019

at least, brawler hits only in a cone in front of the user, not in an entire circle. still aoes of (almost) all kind do way too much damage on pts. this just cant be released like this on live.

mcagatayg · April 2019

if they nerf this, people will just use a different aoe spammable. You guys have a problem with the style of pvp, not a skill. Just git gut.

Arcanasx · April 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

With balorgh proc

Would be interested to know how much Master-at-Arms and Mighty CP points are invested here. The thing about CP is you have these damage boosters that inflate tooltips, while there's also CP that directly counters that damage inflation. Then there's battle spirit. Then there's player mitigation through armor. And there's possibly major evasion, major/minor protection to consider as well. Balorgh also lasts about 10 seconds. On the other hand you can't mitigate your own shields such as the one from brawler; there's only battle spirit to consider.

Against a single target, the sum of the damage and the shield you would get from brawler would be greater than the potential damage with execute you may do with whirling blades against another player, unless you invest into crit damage modifiers and your target doesn't use impen.

Just add the tooltip damage and shield here and compare it to whirling blades; in my case whirling blades tooltip would be approximately 9.5k, similar to brawlers tooltip damage.

Edit: Will also add that my brawler's resource cost is about 1.1k cheaper than your whirling blades as well.

Arcanasx · April 2019

Davadin wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Arcanasx But have you taken a look at the tooltip values for brawler? Ive had it where its tooltip damage was over 9k, plus a 10k shield on top of that, against a single target. AOE. Damage. With. Large Shield. As. Spammable.

how are you getting a 10k ward from brawler? my stamplar dps has a 5k at base. with one target that is is 7.5k, see here-

you also lose out on a bleed if you use brawler.

You can get a higher shield value with higher weapon damage, and theres also that shield boost CP to consider as well. Honestly with a shield that high, brawler will be the better morph for most PvP scenarios that I can think of. The carve morph would generally be better for PvE scenarios, except perhaps vMA where the shield would help quite a lot.

I will also add that Carve looks like it should work as a fire and forget, refresh when duration has expired, while brawler is to be used as an actual spammable.

yes, i understand that you get a higher ward with more weapon damage, i ought to point out you get that with max stam too, the ward takes both into account but this is a stam dps, i have almost 4k base weapon damage(no buffs eg major/minor brutality) and around 35k stam. could you link a screen on your 10k ward?

Approximately 5280 weapon damage, 32.3k max stamina, with 16% shield boost from CP.

Now imagine in a BG; even with lower stats if you're using the masters two handed set and hitting say, 4 players, you can see how tremendously strong this skill is. This is in my opinion potentially much stronger in most PvP scenarios than the PTS whirling blades.

Wait.

What's your build?? Is that buffed? 5280 wp damage and 32k stam?
my stamDK needs both major n minor brut to get to 4.5k wep damage, that's on a medium all gold build with infused wd jewels.....

Yes its buffed, I'm also using gold 5 medium armor with infused wd jewels as well, on top of infused berserk enchant with a weapon damage bonus from dawnbreaker. Gives me great heals as well.

Sarousse · April 2019

Just tested on pts, with 6.4k weapon damage, 31k HP and 20.15% in bastion I'm nowhere near 10k shield with brawler tooltip, I'm under 6k.

It might have been fixed on the last PTS build.

Edit : it was in PvP. Is the tooltip halved in PvP ?

MartiniDaniels · April 2019

Arcanasx wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

With balorgh proc

Would be interested to know how much Master-at-Arms and Mighty CP points are invested here. The thing about CP is you have these damage boosters that inflate tooltips, while there's also CP that directly counters that damage inflation. Then there's battle spirit. Then there's player mitigation through armor. And there's possibly major evasion, major/minor protection to consider as well. Balorgh also lasts about 10 seconds. On the other hand you can't mitigate your own shields such as the one from brawler; there's only battle spirit to consider.

Against a single target, the sum of the damage and the shield you would get from brawler would be greater than the potential damage with execute you may do with whirling blades against another player, unless you invest into crit damage modifiers and your target doesn't use impen.

Just add the tooltip damage and shield here and compare it to whirling blades; in my case whirling blades tooltip would be approximately 9.5k, similar to brawlers tooltip damage.

Edit: Will also add that my brawler's resource cost is about 1.1k cheaper than your whirling blades as well.

It's standard 49 mighty, 56 master-in-arms. Ok, in balanced build it will be 12k tooltip, this is still too much for no-brain aoe execute spammable. Btw, I was without ton of passives at that 14k screenshot, so final cost and damage:

And key difference is that brawler doesn't have execute part, while whirling blade has double execute. Non-crit hits on "old, no-raid" dummy below 25% are 20-25k. Ok, divide it by 3 in CP PVP, still 6-8k without corrosive armor.

Brawler, NB's sap etc don't have execute part. And if they overbuffed brawler in terms of shield spam, then there is 2 broken abilities, not one.

Davadin · April 2019

ok, for brawler, can i recharge my shield before 6sec is up?

because if yes, that's insanely powerful. just spam brawler to continuously have 10k+ damage shield.

if not, i say it's still ok. not everyone will have 10k brawler bubble build (trademark!), but i'm already getting headshot with Snipe with nearly 10k damage anyway. 2 shots and bubble and a healthy chunk of ur health are gone...

Davadin · April 2019

Sarousse wrote: »

Just tested on pts, with 6.4k weapon damage, 31k HP and 20.15% in bastion I'm nowhere near 10k shield with brawler tooltip, I'm under 6k.

It might have been fixed on the last PTS build.

Edit : it was in PvP. Is the tooltip halved in PvP ?

yeah but do u have CP invested on increasing ur shield bubble?

Sarousse · April 2019

Yes, as I stated, 20.15% in bastion.

I also have all the required points to boost melee damage.

MartiniDaniels · April 2019

Well, maybe this all makes sense. Zerg balls will melt each other with aoes, so more viable tactic will be to spread which will fix a ton of problems related to ball groups. Still ST spammables should do notably more damage.

SodanTok · April 2019

Davadin wrote: »

ok, for brawler, can i recharge my shield before 6sec is up?

because if yes, that's insanely powerful. just spam brawler to continuously have 10k+ damage shield.

if not, i say it's still ok. not everyone will have 10k brawler bubble build (trademark!), but i'm already getting headshot with Snipe with nearly 10k damage anyway. 2 shots and bubble and a healthy chunk of ur health are gone...

Brawler isnt some new ablity, its on live and you can test all of your questions there...

but to answer, every cast of brawler removes your current shield and applies new one. So yes you can have 10k shield/sec you can also get 10k shield and strip yourself of it on next missed attack (minus the part of shield thats awarded on cast)

Arcanasx · April 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

With balorgh proc

Would be interested to know how much Master-at-Arms and Mighty CP points are invested here. The thing about CP is you have these damage boosters that inflate tooltips, while there's also CP that directly counters that damage inflation. Then there's battle spirit. Then there's player mitigation through armor. And there's possibly major evasion, major/minor protection to consider as well. Balorgh also lasts about 10 seconds. On the other hand you can't mitigate your own shields such as the one from brawler; there's only battle spirit to consider.

Against a single target, the sum of the damage and the shield you would get from brawler would be greater than the potential damage with execute you may do with whirling blades against another player, unless you invest into crit damage modifiers and your target doesn't use impen.

Just add the tooltip damage and shield here and compare it to whirling blades; in my case whirling blades tooltip would be approximately 9.5k, similar to brawlers tooltip damage.

Edit: Will also add that my brawler's resource cost is about 1.1k cheaper than your whirling blades as well.

It's standard 49 mighty, 56 master-in-arms. Ok, in balanced build it will be 12k tooltip, this is still too much for no-brain aoe execute spammable. Btw, I was without ton of passives at that 14k screenshot, so final cost and damage:

And key difference is that brawler doesn't have execute part, while whirling blade has double execute. Non-crit hits on "old, no-raid" dummy below 25% are 20-25k. Ok, divide it by 3 in CP PVP, still 6-8k without corrosive armor.

Brawler, NB's sap etc don't have execute part. And if they overbuffed brawler in terms of shield spam, then there is 2 broken abilities, not one.

Yes I've considered the execute part. My whirling blades would be about 9.5k. Attacking a target At 20% hp adds an extra 100% with the dual wield passive into account, which would act like 19k. If you add the brawler damage and shield together, it adds up to about 20k in value. So 9.5k damage with a 10.5k buffer for your health, which you can have attacking a target at 100% health. Don't forget about the bigger shield value you can get the more targets you hit.

Considering a PvP context, reduce all these numbers by 50% with battle spirit. On top of that you can further decrease the damage done than you can decrease the shield value. The damage would be further reduced by player CP, armor resistances, and potentially major evasion/major protection/minor protection. On the other hand you cannot mitigate the effectiveness on shields you apply to yourself, and there's only that shield breaker CP that another player may potentially have that increases their damage against shields; that's it. And I'm sure you would agree that the extra crit damage you may do won't amount to a lot considering the prevalence of high critical hit resistances in PvP. What I'm trying to say is you would generally get more numerical value out of brawler than whirling blades for PvP.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Well, maybe this all makes sense. Zerg balls will melt each other with aoes, so more viable tactic will be to spread which will fix a ton of problems related to ball groups. Still ST spammables should do notably more damage.

With AoEs buffed across the board for PTS, this is my thinking as well. I would also say that AoEs act as an "equalizer" in the sense that an outnumbered group that plays better than a larger group will be able to defeat them by coordinating more powerful AoEs. This is already true to some extent on live, but with the AoE changes this will make it easier as long as the smaller group plays skillfully.

Edit: Should also consider the masters two handed weapon as well for brawler; 1500-9000 extra base damage for its full potential.

hesobad · April 2019

make the thing dodgeable jesus christ, people still going to spam this sht in pvp

MartiniDaniels · April 2019

Arcanasx wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

With balorgh proc

Would be interested to know how much Master-at-Arms and Mighty CP points are invested here. The thing about CP is you have these damage boosters that inflate tooltips, while there's also CP that directly counters that damage inflation. Then there's battle spirit. Then there's player mitigation through armor. And there's possibly major evasion, major/minor protection to consider as well. Balorgh also lasts about 10 seconds. On the other hand you can't mitigate your own shields such as the one from brawler; there's only battle spirit to consider.

Against a single target, the sum of the damage and the shield you would get from brawler would be greater than the potential damage with execute you may do with whirling blades against another player, unless you invest into crit damage modifiers and your target doesn't use impen.

Just add the tooltip damage and shield here and compare it to whirling blades; in my case whirling blades tooltip would be approximately 9.5k, similar to brawlers tooltip damage.

Edit: Will also add that my brawler's resource cost is about 1.1k cheaper than your whirling blades as well.

It's standard 49 mighty, 56 master-in-arms. Ok, in balanced build it will be 12k tooltip, this is still too much for no-brain aoe execute spammable. Btw, I was without ton of passives at that 14k screenshot, so final cost and damage:

And key difference is that brawler doesn't have execute part, while whirling blade has double execute. Non-crit hits on "old, no-raid" dummy below 25% are 20-25k. Ok, divide it by 3 in CP PVP, still 6-8k without corrosive armor.

Brawler, NB's sap etc don't have execute part. And if they overbuffed brawler in terms of shield spam, then there is 2 broken abilities, not one.

Yes I've considered the execute part. My whirling blades would be about 9.5k. Attacking a target At 20% hp adds an extra 100% with the dual wield passive into account, which would act like 19k. If you add the brawler damage and shield together, it adds up to about 20k in value. So 9.5k damage with a 10.5k buffer for your health, which you can have attacking a target at 100% health. Don't forget about the bigger shield value you can get the more targets you hit.

Considering a PvP context, reduce all these numbers by 50% with battle spirit. On top of that you can further decrease the damage done than you can decrease the shield value. The damage would be further reduced by player CP, armor resistances, and potentially major evasion/major protection/minor protection. On the other hand you cannot mitigate the effectiveness on shields you apply to yourself, and there's only that shield breaker CP that another player may potentially have that increases their damage against shields; that's it. And I'm sure you would agree that the extra crit damage you may do won't amount to a lot considering the prevalence of high critical hit resistances in PvP. What I'm trying to say is you would generally get more numerical value out of brawler than whirling blades for PvP.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Well, maybe this all makes sense. Zerg balls will melt each other with aoes, so more viable tactic will be to spread which will fix a ton of problems related to ball groups. Still ST spammables should do notably more damage.

With AoEs buffed across the board for PTS, this is my thinking as well. I would also say that AoEs act as an "equalizer" in the sense that an outnumbered group that plays better than a larger group will be able to defeat them by coordinating more powerful AoEs. This is already true to some extent on live, but with the AoE changes this will make it easier as long as the smaller group plays skillfully.

I'm not sure about it. For some unknown reason I am usually finished in smallscale/duel-like situations by executioner/reverse slash, while if I got into ball's way, it's steel tornado all the way through recap. As for now aoes from smaller group are mostly outhealed by ball's healers and earthgore. So it will be zerg against the zerg aoes, which will force zerg to split (in theory) and so it will be no longer a ball, but more even player groups with a lot of smallscale's going in parallel. But this is all theory, I doubt that hive mind will change that easily.
Also what spec do you run to get shield tooltip more then damage tooltip? In my tooltip it's like 1.5 times smaller, and i doubt 20% from bastion will increase it x1.5.

Arcanasx · April 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

With balorgh proc

Would be interested to know how much Master-at-Arms and Mighty CP points are invested here. The thing about CP is you have these damage boosters that inflate tooltips, while there's also CP that directly counters that damage inflation. Then there's battle spirit. Then there's player mitigation through armor. And there's possibly major evasion, major/minor protection to consider as well. Balorgh also lasts about 10 seconds. On the other hand you can't mitigate your own shields such as the one from brawler; there's only battle spirit to consider.

Against a single target, the sum of the damage and the shield you would get from brawler would be greater than the potential damage with execute you may do with whirling blades against another player, unless you invest into crit damage modifiers and your target doesn't use impen.

Just add the tooltip damage and shield here and compare it to whirling blades; in my case whirling blades tooltip would be approximately 9.5k, similar to brawlers tooltip damage.

Edit: Will also add that my brawler's resource cost is about 1.1k cheaper than your whirling blades as well.

It's standard 49 mighty, 56 master-in-arms. Ok, in balanced build it will be 12k tooltip, this is still too much for no-brain aoe execute spammable. Btw, I was without ton of passives at that 14k screenshot, so final cost and damage:

And key difference is that brawler doesn't have execute part, while whirling blade has double execute. Non-crit hits on "old, no-raid" dummy below 25% are 20-25k. Ok, divide it by 3 in CP PVP, still 6-8k without corrosive armor.

Brawler, NB's sap etc don't have execute part. And if they overbuffed brawler in terms of shield spam, then there is 2 broken abilities, not one.

Yes I've considered the execute part. My whirling blades would be about 9.5k. Attacking a target At 20% hp adds an extra 100% with the dual wield passive into account, which would act like 19k. If you add the brawler damage and shield together, it adds up to about 20k in value. So 9.5k damage with a 10.5k buffer for your health, which you can have attacking a target at 100% health. Don't forget about the bigger shield value you can get the more targets you hit.

Considering a PvP context, reduce all these numbers by 50% with battle spirit. On top of that you can further decrease the damage done than you can decrease the shield value. The damage would be further reduced by player CP, armor resistances, and potentially major evasion/major protection/minor protection. On the other hand you cannot mitigate the effectiveness on shields you apply to yourself, and there's only that shield breaker CP that another player may potentially have that increases their damage against shields; that's it. And I'm sure you would agree that the extra crit damage you may do won't amount to a lot considering the prevalence of high critical hit resistances in PvP. What I'm trying to say is you would generally get more numerical value out of brawler than whirling blades for PvP.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Well, maybe this all makes sense. Zerg balls will melt each other with aoes, so more viable tactic will be to spread which will fix a ton of problems related to ball groups. Still ST spammables should do notably more damage.

With AoEs buffed across the board for PTS, this is my thinking as well. I would also say that AoEs act as an "equalizer" in the sense that an outnumbered group that plays better than a larger group will be able to defeat them by coordinating more powerful AoEs. This is already true to some extent on live, but with the AoE changes this will make it easier as long as the smaller group plays skillfully.

I'm not sure about it. For some unknown reason I am usually finished in smallscale/duel-like situations by executioner/reverse slash, while if I got into ball's way, it's steel tornado all the way through recap. As for now aoes from smaller group are mostly outhealed by ball's healers and earthgore. So it will be zerg against the zerg aoes, which will force zerg to split (in theory) and so it will be no longer a ball, but more even player groups with a lot of smallscale's going in parallel. But this is all theory, I doubt that hive mind will change that easily.
Also what spec do you run to get shield tooltip more then damage tooltip? In my tooltip it's like 1.5 times smaller, and i doubt 20% from bastion will increase it x1.5.

Hitting a target with brawler will add the first 50% to the tooltip. So its whatever your tooltip shield is and adding 50% to it.

Earth gore Is also being nerfed as well; I cannot remember exactly what it would do but I think it only affects one person on PTS? That combined with increased AOE damage will make ball groups more squishy and vulnerable, so I would expect people to spread out more which I think is a good change, and also give smaller groups a better chance against larger groups.
I also believe ranged AOE's (due to increased damage) such as bombard will also become particularly more dangerous to ball groups; imagine several of those being spammed into a ball group. It all gives more incentives to spread out.