L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

People asked for necromancers for quite a while and now they're being added. I think a new weapon skill line would be a nice addition with the next expansion and spears have been a popular suggestion for a while now.

A popular, but obviously not well thought out suggestion.

In hindsight, all suggestions made by the community are not well thought of, and in general just terrible as a whole.It's all personal opinion an preferences if it interesting or not to you. What you think maybe a great idea, another will see as trash, and visa versa.

No matter how many champion and railroad for or against a suggestion, ZOS will and always have final say, even if it is universally accepted or hated.

This is not about preferences. I am not against spears, I am just pointing out that it's not easy to implement spears the right way into the game.

Let me explain it to you one last time. There are a few options provided that there already is he perfect spear skill line in the game (called Aedric Spear in case you still didn't get it)

1. Adding spears as two hander option:
- easy to implement
- skills don't fit
- terrible spear fighting animations
- just imagine your character holding a spear like the two hander sword

2. Adding spears with their own skill line while leaving Aedric Spear unchanged (maybe just make it magic dmg only which isn't a great solution):
- also easy to implement since you would copy the Aedric Spear line with minor differences (e.g. remove light effect, physical dmg only)
- templar wouldn't be unique anymore, beware the player outrage
- at least you'd have fitting skills and animations for your new weapon
- balancing issues

3. Copy and Paste Aedric Spear and create a completely new skill line for the Templar:
- that's quite a bit of work, but maybe templars can keep the aedric spears passives
- templars would lose an iconic and important skill line, beware the player outrage (rip spear shard)
- the new skill line might not be accepted by the community, beware the player outrage
- balancing issues
- probably the right, but most difficult way to implement spears into the game

As you can see, it's not so easy to find a good solution.

Looking to Aedric spear skills and trying to "translate" to non magical skills

Radial Sweep - Will not fit an regular non magical spear
Puncturing Strikes - Fit if will not applies reduction on speed
Piercing Javelin - Not fit if your spear isn't magical, unless you can magically "recall" your spear
Focused Charge The animation fits but the stun not
Spear Shards - Will definitively not fit
Sun Shield - Will not fit

The skills needs to be different for a non magical spear.

Wtf are you talking about? This is still just a game. So the unlimited amount of arrows for your bow makes sense now?

Stovahkiin wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

People asked for necromancers for quite a while and now they're being added. I think a new weapon skill line would be a nice addition with the next expansion and spears have been a popular suggestion for a while now.

A popular, but obviously not well thought out suggestion.

In hindsight, all suggestions made by the community are not well thought of, and in general just terrible as a whole.It's all personal opinion an preferences if it interesting or not to you. What you think maybe a great idea, another will see as trash, and visa versa.

No matter how many champion and railroad for or against a suggestion, ZOS will and always have final say, even if it is universally accepted or hated.

This is not about preferences. I am not against spears, I am just pointing out that it's not easy to implement spears the right way into the game.

Let me explain it to you one last time. There are a few options provided that there already is he perfect spear skill line in the game (called Aedric Spear in case you still didn't get it)


2. Adding spears with their own skill line while leaving Aedric Spear unchanged (maybe just make it magic dmg only which isn't a great solution):
- also easy to implement since you would copy the Aedric Spear line with minor differences (e.g. remove light effect, physical dmg only)
- templar wouldn't be unique anymore, beware the player outrage
- at least you'd have fitting skills and animations for your new weapon
- balancing issues

I don't know why you seem to bent on believing that the Templar's spear skill line *must* remain completely unique. I don't see any problems with implementing spears while also leaving the aedric spear line more or less alone. Also, citing "balancing issues" is just a cop out for making this list longer since that some could potentially be said for any skill or weapon line.

You're right, it was. But let's hear about your idea of "implementing spears while also leaving the aedric spear line more or less alone".
It's funny, because I'd probably be the last person to get mad about templar changes, but apperantly most eso players do. Oh boy, how people cried when they took away major mending from the templars passives.

Well I had some ideas how this Polearm weapon skills could work. Here are some of them:
1. Two type of weapons, Spear and Combat Staff.
2. Both weapons will be 2 handed, crafted at Woodworking station.
3. All two weapons will be melee weapon.
4. Skill line will be hybrid, with some skills costing stamina and some costing magicka.
5. Spear will be better suited for stamina builds.
6. Combat Staff will be better suited for magicka builds (mystic monk - style weapon).
7. It will be possible to use Spear on magicka & Combat Staff on stamina builds but it will be less effective.
8. Passives will provide bonus to Weapon Critical Chance % and Physical Penetration, when using Spear, and Spell Critical Chance % and Spell Penetration when using Combat Staff.
9. All skills will have magicka & stamina morphs.

Visual: Since there were some concerns that adding ton of new models for existing styles, it can be done the following way:

Spear can use staff "shaft" with "dagger" model at the end.
Combat Staff can use staff "shaft" but could have staff decorative end on both sides of the staff.
Alternatively it can use "hammer" visual model at both ends of the staff.

Skills: Well I only have a short concept of how the skill could be designed:

Skill 1 - (Stamina) Single target skill, can be used as a spamable.
Skill 2 - (Stamina) Single target skill with execute.
Skill 3 - (Magicka) AOE, melee attack.
Skill 4 - (Stamina) Charged melee attack with cast time.
Skill 5 - (Magicka) Buff, utility skill, heal.

Now keep in mind, all skill will have magicka & stamina morphs. The one I wrote are only for the base morph.

Ultimate skill: Now here is where its gets interesting. I was trying to think, what could be a unique ultimate for this weapon skill line... And then I asked myself... what if you could actually be able to throw your spear ?

So it could work like this:
When you press Ultimate button, you have to pick a AOE target (yes it will be ranged ability), similar to Caltrops or Volley. When you use it, your character will actually throw your Polearm weapon at that spot (but don't worry, you will still have it in your inventory equipped and you wont lose any weapon & spell dmg bonus that equipped weapon provides).
Targets in the AOE circle will receive initial hit AOE dmg and as long as they are in the circle the will receive dmg over time.

Now here is the best part:
In order to be able to use any Polearm skill or light / heavy attack, after you throw your weapon, you will actually have to get your spear back (walk near it) or wait for the Ultimate to expire. Alternatively you will be able to bar swap and simply wait till ultimate will expire and the weapon will comeback to you.
I was also thinking of making use of Synergy button to pick up Spear (this could potentially make another AOE dmg circle, the moment you pick it up).

I’d want a spear if I was fighting a dragon. I’d also want some invis pots.

Protossyder wrote: »

L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

People asked for necromancers for quite a while and now they're being added. I think a new weapon skill line would be a nice addition with the next expansion and spears have been a popular suggestion for a while now.

A popular, but obviously not well thought out suggestion.

In hindsight, all suggestions made by the community are not well thought of, and in general just terrible as a whole.It's all personal opinion an preferences if it interesting or not to you. What you think maybe a great idea, another will see as trash, and visa versa.

No matter how many champion and railroad for or against a suggestion, ZOS will and always have final say, even if it is universally accepted or hated.

This is not about preferences. I am not against spears, I am just pointing out that it's not easy to implement spears the right way into the game.

Let me explain it to you one last time. There are a few options provided that there already is he perfect spear skill line in the game (called Aedric Spear in case you still didn't get it)

1. Adding spears as two hander option:
- easy to implement
- skills don't fit
- terrible spear fighting animations
- just imagine your character holding a spear like the two hander sword

2. Adding spears with their own skill line while leaving Aedric Spear unchanged (maybe just make it magic dmg only which isn't a great solution):
- also easy to implement since you would copy the Aedric Spear line with minor differences (e.g. remove light effect, physical dmg only)
- templar wouldn't be unique anymore, beware the player outrage
- at least you'd have fitting skills and animations for your new weapon
- balancing issues

3. Copy and Paste Aedric Spear and create a completely new skill line for the Templar:
- that's quite a bit of work, but maybe templars can keep the aedric spears passives
- templars would lose an iconic and important skill line, beware the player outrage (rip spear shard)
- the new skill line might not be accepted by the community, beware the player outrage
- balancing issues
- probably the right, but most difficult way to implement spears into the game

As you can see, it's not so easy to find a good solution.

Looking to Aedric spear skills and trying to "translate" to non magical skills

Radial Sweep - Will not fit an regular non magical spear
Puncturing Strikes - Fit if will not applies reduction on speed
Piercing Javelin - Not fit if your spear isn't magical, unless you can magically "recall" your spear
Focused Charge The animation fits but the stun not
Spear Shards - Will definitively not fit
Sun Shield - Will not fit

The skills needs to be different for a non magical spear.

Wtf are you talking about? This is still just a game. So the unlimited amount of arrows for your bow makes sense now?

On previous games, bows require arrows and there are many type of arrows. I honestly believe that it should be implemented in ESO, but diferently, some better at piercing armor, some with poison, some with greater range, etc. But that is another discussion. An game, mainly an medieval fantasy game should't be 100% realistic, not even project cars and arma 3 are. But polearms should be consistent with morrowind polearms.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

People asked for necromancers for quite a while and now they're being added. I think a new weapon skill line would be a nice addition with the next expansion and spears have been a popular suggestion for a while now.

A popular, but obviously not well thought out suggestion.

Oh, it's "obvious", is it? Why is that, exactly?

Because of the "spear as weapon" - "aedric spear" conflict. If you don't see a problem there I can't help you, sorry.

...

Seriously? And you don't think the devs are able to differentiate between those two things with animations and color schemes? Or, maybe the fact that the characters would actually be holding a weapon as opposed to just firing off a skill?

Do you think they would just give all classes the templar aedric spear skill line because it has the word "spear" in it? What kind of connection are you drawing there?

Remove the color scheme, add a default spear holding animation with light and heavy attacks. And now pls tell me how the aedric spear skill line wouldn't fit.

[edited to remove unnecessary baiting and insulting comments]

I would like to see spears in game but only as another 2h weapon type that would give Critical Rating for having it equiped. That would bring 2h and DW in line.

Yes please. Bardiche, glaive and the game also needs mace "variants" namely flails and morning stars.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I would like to see spears in game but only as another 2h weapon type that would give Critical Rating for having it equiped. That would bring 2h and DW in line.

No, i remember gothic 3 where you swing an spear like an greatsword. Makes no sense using an trusting weapon like an cutting weapon.

---

Anyway, for what i've said about spear/aedric spear. Looks to Dragon's Dogma. Longbows/Shortbows and magick bows are completely different weapons.

The Zenimax family of studios are all managed by people highly allergic to polearms.

Protossyder wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

People asked for necromancers for quite a while and now they're being added. I think a new weapon skill line would be a nice addition with the next expansion and spears have been a popular suggestion for a while now.

A popular, but obviously not well thought out suggestion.

Oh, it's "obvious", is it? Why is that, exactly?

Because of the "spear as weapon" - "aedric spear" conflict. If you don't see a problem there I can't help you, sorry.

...

Seriously? And you don't think the devs are able to differentiate between those two things with animations and color schemes? Or, maybe the fact that the characters would actually be holding a weapon as opposed to just firing off a skill?

Do you think they would just give all classes the templar aedric spear skill line because it has the word "spear" in it? What kind of connection are you drawing there?

My guess is that you have a really hard time drawing connections in general. That makes it really exhausting to talk to someone like you.
Remove the color scheme, add a default spear holding animation with light and heavy attacks. And now pls tell me how the aedric spear skill line wouldn't fit.

Honestly, I don't know what to say to this. This is so, so deep in the box thinking that there really isn't a good response to it.

All I can say is that the devs are more imaginative than that. If they add spears to the game, they are not going to just copy and paste the aedric spear skill line.

You - you just chill out. Just because you can't think of how they can make it different doesn't mean they cant.

You're referring to the wrong box here. Aedric Spear provides the perfect spear weapon skill line, that's a fact. So instead of trying to create a equally good skill line that would either be a lame copy or a weak alternative, we could Ctr+X it from the templar (of course not leave it like that: different passives, different morphs, different buffs/debuffs) and gift the templar a completely new, unique and worthy skill line. (e.g.: keep the shards synergy and add it to a new AoE, ranged magicka/melee stamina spammable instead of jabs, recreate the sun shield, a dps ultimate, etc etc etc)

That's the way I'd go if we want to implement spears as weapons.

personally i'd just like to be able to equip a spear and poke things/people with it, that just sounds fun

Browiseth wrote: »

Somnilux wrote: »

The only thing is, is the cost worth having to add all the graphical assets to the game? They have a ton of motifs, outfits, etc that would need to have polearms added to it, all for a simple mechanics solution.

@Somnilux why do you care about the cost? you're not the one being paid to make the game

Because development cost versus actual playerbase or monetization gain is the main way to see things done. New assets, and especially animations are the most expensive thing from a dev end. A new skill line, like a new class is something used to sell expansions but come with huge asset costs for animations (and balance headaches which involves testing though ZoS tends to put unbalanced content live to offload testing costs).

Another poster responded that the animations don't fit spears, and that's true, something I hadn't considered as it would require animations in addition to the weapon assets, and that would probably require development of an entirely separate skill line. Which means it'd have to be held off for expansions or sold as a DLC to get it done. Would it sell well enough compared to new content? Would it justify itself? I can't answer that, but its not like a small undertaking.

If the animations had worked, it would be mostly skins which are far cheaper and could be monetized through the crown store sales of special ones.

Its not that I care, I just recognize the reality of the situation and have to advocate for realistic things. Its like the people saying the game needs a total overhaul to deal with the lag. It would be ideal, but its not going to happen because it doesn't make financial sense.

Adding a 5th stamina weapon tree/3rd melee stamina weapon skill line does not seem like a huge net gain to the game when theres only one DD magicka weapon, 1 tank weapon, no magicka melee weapons and 1 healer weapon. If we were to see an independent skill line developed to expand mechanical options for players my bet is on magicka melee tank or dps weapon first.

They chose though to develop the psijic skill line instead for summerset.

L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »

Somnilux, look to Mount & Blade. If an small sutdio managed to make good(and realistic) quality animations for spear combat on foot and ranged, why Bugthesda will not be able?

Ironic how you actually expect something of them while thinking so badly of them.

Anyways in my opinion the whole spear thing would come with a huge problem, spears have a wider range then dual wield or two handed just imaging how pvp would go crazy and basically forcing them to play this to be viable. PvE wise I don't see any need or benefit of adding that to the game.

Just would break things most likely all over again.