Why are they nerfing dungeons?

KyraCROgnon · March 2019

I'm actually pleased with their reason for the change (haven't tested it so can't tell how it works on the field)
Since new expansions don't change max level, just add a few more champ points, old content don't become instantly "*** easy" like they do in WoW, the power curve is very flat.

So by now, older DLC dungeons have long since been completed and farmed to the bone by "serious" players , so why not make it more accessible to the casuals so they have something else to do than solo content, without having to beg to be carried by 3 more experiences guildies ?

The new ones are still designed as a challenge, and should not be nerfed too fast , but for old ones, smoothing the run may get them more visites from newcomers .

The one thing i'd wish they'd do is remove a lot of the trash from dungeons (and old trials). It's no real challenge (or if it is, then you'll never make it through !) , but it slows the run a lot, and i just hate it

NoMoreChillies · March 2019

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Because of some entitled people who believe they should be able to complete every single piece of content in the game without actually working to improve at the game. Welcome to gaming in 2019.

You do realise that when you start to get a ping around the 400 mark, all those "easy to follow" mechanics become "you have to be exceptionally quick to avoid" mechanics, right?

+1
some people have more struggles then we will ever know.

MikaHR · March 2019

"Why are they nerfing dungeons?"

DLC dungeons are waste of money. Unles they make them immensly popular....somehow, motifs, gear and all other rewards as "encouragement" failed miserably, no one wants to play them no matter what devs do and how much rewards they shower players with. And now shoving main STORY into them....is a big fail on ZOSs part.

"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."

profundidob16_ESO · March 2019

Raammzzaa wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

HappyLittleTree wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Strange people mention mechanics and it's just a case of others getting good. Stating people should be willing to learn. I've been in grps where mechanics were irrelevant because of the dps on show. There have even been people in those groups that have admitted they have no idea about most of the mechanics because the bosses are dead before those mechanics even come into play.

How is burning *** down asap learning dungeon mechanics?

Exactly so why make them even easier?

Here's something a guildmate said today in discord it's just genius :

Could you imagine in school or at work if you’re like “excuse me... I don’t think I’m good enough to get this degree... could you make it easier?”
“Sure! You’ll be a Doctor yet"

And here's a genius reply from someone else today:

"If we're talking about doctors as in saving human lives out in the real world we have a valid need for them to be truly skilled and keep the bar high. But we're talking about people here playing a virtual game to pass their free time and simply have fun. Should we play all TV content in a mix of 6 different languages as well to make people do effort and increase their language skills ?"

Two of my guilds recently made BDO sections on their Discords since some of our players have been enthusiastic about making the switch. It’s not uncommon to hear ESO referred to as a dead game either. If nerfing the older DLC dungeons continues bring newer players into them than I’m supportive of it.

Now on the other hand, if you are veteran player that was regularly helping newer players learn, get through, and get the achievements from those content, and encourage them, then good on you - if there were more players like you Tamriel would be an even better community!

Thank you for the compliment. I have indeed made a sport out of queuing for veteran random and embracing the blue portal and then trying whatever lies within my power to educate inexperienced players and drag them through it. You should see some of their responses when they realize for the first time that wiping constantly is actually not necessary at all and how understanding mechanics can turn what they usually know as a 'nightmare run' into a pleasant and fun experience. Never seen happier or more thankful people. But to then have to run into a hard wall (inhibitor, Galchobar, ...) where I simply cannot drag them over and having to finally quit a dungeon after 2 hours...really painful. It's what made me leave alot of DLC pugs at start as of late because as much as I love the experience of helping and educating I need at least some degree of guarantee that our group will be able to actually finish the dungeon or it all feels as a complete waste.

However statistically (in my head going over all experiences) the biggest showstoppers nowadays in those runs are lack of core dps from inexperienced players. For instance I remember a recent run where I perfectly got the newbie group up to the point of the mage 'Stoneheart' in Bloodroot Forge and after learning mechanics they got it near perfect but still wiped due to lack of dps for the execute phase. That is when the mage summons all stone atronachs at once around 10% health and tank has to taunt all of them while dps shields up and tries to finish boss. The group was up to the point where they had lost hope and were about to disband when finally we still killed it. (after 10+ wipes on just that boss).

In this light I welcome these nerfs. If I read the changes to inhibitor for instance it means that as tank I'll be able to just tank it through in case the healer is good but the dps is lousy. Also as healer -in case dps is low again- I'll now be able to simply ping pong the boss around in blue phase together with only 1 other player who gets the mechanic as long as it takes until dps finally kills it while 1 shotting portals with my staff. In other words so many more options now for good players to carry new players through if they really don't get it. This should increase completion rates for sure.

I don't need to explain that runs like this take up several hours just for 1 dungeon. My only goal in there is see their happy reactions when they make it all the way through for the first time and actually finish the dungeon which they had considered "impossible"...

Besides that I also love running the hardest challenge in the game. For that I go on PTS with a preconfigured team of likeminded hardcore players before the first nerf to the dlc dungeons or we run challenger and achievements on live.

But in all honesty ? Some veteran DLC random pugs feel alot harder to me than running challenger achievements with a premade team...

code65536 · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

"Why are they nerfing dungeons?"

DLC dungeons are waste of money. Unles they make them immensly popular....somehow, motifs, gear and all other rewards as "encouragement" failed miserably, no one wants to play them no matter what devs do and how much rewards they shower players with. And now shoving main STORY into them....is a big fail on ZOSs part.

"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."

@MikaHR What percentage of the people have achievements such as "Shadows of the Hist Explorer"? That's the one where you get the loyalty reward personality just for porting into the dungeon. I think those are better baselines--that's the number of people who have access to the DLC and have bothered to at least set foot inside to get the free collectible. Kinda curious how the clearance rates for each DLC compares to the access rate of that DLC.

MikaHR · March 2019

Completion rates are true measure of how much people are interested in actual dungeons.

Someone setting foot ("porting to a dungeon") is not really measure of anything, not even of how many people own the DLC/ESO+, as most people dont even bother to set foot in them.

Also to get any meaningful information out of it you would need to do number of tries/number of fails to assess if something is "too hard"....and only ZOS has that and it seems they are acting upon it. Though im in dout that it will have any effect.

profundidob16_ESO · March 2019

luizpaulom17 wrote: »

And to the people complaining that Pug groups were having a hard time doing dlc dgs: Well, this is a MMO game! Where U need to group up with people to complete content! Stop being anti social and find a good guild for god sake! Meet people and form groups for Dgs that are hard! Otherwise just give up and go back to Skyrim single player stuff!!

Im still making my group for arenas and Dlc Dgs, but I didnt cry like a baby for spending 5 hours on Dephs of Mal., cause it is something that can happens when U still dont have your own group!

Have you ever considered that a Multi Massive Online game is not there just for 10% of premade groups but also for the other 90% of people that would like to log in and mingle and have a random playing experience with each other full of unexpected and surprising random factors in it ??

As a reference I will compare to Starcraft II where all the maps are always the same (like the dungeons here) and there is even only 1 difficulty level there (unlike the dungeons here) but most of the fun comes actually from the random grouping experience itself where it pairs you up with random unknown people in order to beat the AI together.

That being said I do have to make 1 important remark that ESO lacks: Starcraft II has a beautiful continuous ranking system that pairs you successfully with other random people of more or less equal skill. In a 5 ranks/leagues system the game will always pair you with another player of maximum 1 step difference, no more. And then the difficulty of that particular game will be automatically adjusted to the group's assessed skill level. After every game your ranking goes up or down depending on your performance. That system is what ESO lacks imho. It encourages better play and ensures better random grouping experiences

WeerW3ir · March 2019

Eventually all will be nerfed. Im only dissapointed on Planar *** nerf from WGT. who im gonna call now planar ***?XD

code65536 · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Completion rates are true measure of how much people are interested in actual dungeons.

Someone setting foot ("porting to a dungeon") is not really measure of anything, not even of how many people own the DLC/ESO+, as most people dont even bother to set foot in them.

Also to get any meaningful information out of it you would need to do number of tries/number of fails to assess if something is "too hard"....and only ZOS has that and it seems they are acting upon it. Though im in dout that it will have any effect.

@MikaHR I think there's been a misunderstanding. Completion rate is meaningless unless you have something to compare that completion rate against, which is why I'd like to know the access rate too.

I.e., access rate is the baseline against which completion rate is compared--e.g., if 5% of people have the access achievement, and 2.5% have the normal completion, and 0.5% have the vet completion, then we can say that half the people who have access to the DLC completed normal and a tenth of the people who have access completed vet.

MikaHR · March 2019

The only semi meaninful information would be normal/vet completion, you cant possibly know how many people have access to it (everyone with ESO+ have access, yet small number actually accessed it).

But then again, that would assume that everyone that completed normal is interested in doing/completing vet.

code65536 · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

The only semi meaninful information would be normal/vet completion, you cant possibly know how many people have access to it (everyone with ESO+ have access, yet small number actually accessed it).

But then again, that would assume that everyone that completed normal is interested in doing/completing vet.

Yes, normal/vet completion is the only meaningful information. But access is the context by which that information is viewed.

When the data says that 2.6% of people have completed nRoM, that's 2.6% of people who have ever touched the game on that platform. That includes people who quit the game long before Hist was even released. That's the default context. Which is pretty damn worthless. Access rate provides a better context.

profundidob16_ESO · March 2019

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

Finally I can fake tank the vet DLC dungeons on my DD, thank you!
Tank lfg 6 keys

Let me correct that for you:

"Tank lfg 5 keys"

Splattercat_83 · March 2019

Thevampirenight wrote: »

And allow Casuels a chance of getting the personalities and skins.

That right there is the problem. A skin is a sign of the players skill, thats what makes them worth anything. Some of them are straight up butt ugly and the only reason to wear them would be to show that Ive put in the work. Every Tom, ***, and Harry would be walking around with one on, whats so special in that?

How about we go back to the old days where if you wanted the skin, you had to "git good" Is that to much to ask?

MikaHR · March 2019

code65536 wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

The only semi meaninful information would be normal/vet completion, you cant possibly know how many people have access to it (everyone with ESO+ have access, yet small number actually accessed it).

But then again, that would assume that everyone that completed normal is interested in doing/completing vet.

Yes, normal/vet completion is the only meaningful information. But access is the context by which that information is viewed.

When the data says that 2.6% of people have completed nRoM, that's 2.6% of people who have ever touched the game on that platform. That includes people who quit the game long before Hist was even released. That's the default context. Which is pretty damn worthless. Access rate provides a better context.

No its not, and unless ZOS gives you access data, youre out of luck.

The meaninful data is latest DLC dungeon vs base game dungeons. The rate is ABBYSMAL and showing SHARP falloff, and keeping in mind that newer dungeons cost more and more to make and they are not paying off. And keep in mind we are comaring ALL base game dungeons against a single dungeon DLC, comparing individual base game dungeons would prove to be even worse bet for DLC dungeons. Or comparing all base game dungeons with ALL DLC dungeons combined (which would end up as 4.5% vs 0.1%)

Splattercat_83 wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

And allow Casuels a chance of getting the personalities and skins.

That right there is the problem. A skin is a sign of the players skill, thats what makes them worth anything. Some of them are straight up butt ugly and the only reason to wear them would be to show that Ive put in the work. Every Tom, ***, and Harry would be walking around with one on, whats so special in that?

How about we go back to the old days where if you wanted the skin, you had to "git good" Is that to much to ask?

How about ZOS stops wasting a lot of money on making something that barely anyone buys/plays....like DLC dungeons alltogether? Seems you prefer that. Then you can walk in your "special" ugly costume and cry about it all you want.

They have to sell motifs/outfit styles in cash shop, thats how badly these DLC dungeons are faring, so instead letting people play content they make,"special" rewards go straight to cash shop. How "special" do you feel now?

Rungar · March 2019

The sad part is that the removal of weaving would increase the challenge for the superheroes and level the playing field for everyone else but watch the backs come up if you even mention it.

Mr_Walker · March 2019

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Because of some entitled people who believe they should be able to complete every single piece of content in the game without actually working to improve at the game. Welcome to gaming in 2019.

You do realise that when you start to get a ping around the 400 mark, all those "easy to follow" mechanics become "you have to be exceptionally quick to avoid" mechanics, right?

+1
some people have more struggles then we will ever know.

True.

Still, gaming forums are a rubbish way of game companies getting feedback. They seem to be totally populated by the alleged "god-tier" players, who supposedly run hardest content in the game straight out of tutorial, (irrespective of which game it is), or budding psychopaths who seem to be unable to understand that other people may not be as good as they are, or who may not have the same skill set, which is absurd.

To put this in context, I make good money IRL because I have really, really good data analysis and pattern recognition skills. I'm often a little... nonplussed as to why people can't see the things I see, or if they do they're so slow to get there, but I never make the mistake of, when they say they can't connect the dots, of thinking or saying "just git gud". It doesn't work like that. Same principle here, regardless of any physical limitations one may have in and of themselves, or any lag, etc, some people just won't have the skills to complete the content, may never have the necessary skills, and, here's the kicker to the "git gud" crowd, if people can't complete them at least on normal, then they'll stop buying them, and zos will stop making them. So if it means someone is walking around in the same (rather horrendous) "skin" as you are, and it's not a PITA for them to get, they have at least bought the content, and that's all zos cares about. Not how "special" getting one makes you feel.

PS, if you need a "skin" in a game to make you feel special you undervalue yourself, and you should seek other forms of validation, because a video game will serve you poorly in life. Go help out at an old folks home. Lots of sad old buggers don't have anyone left to even talk to. Or work with the disabled. You will actually be special IRL then, and you don't need to look like a boiled lolly in a game to do it.

code65536 · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

No its not, and unless ZOS gives you access data, youre out of luck.

The meaninful data is latest DLC dungeon vs base game dungeons. The rate is ABBYSMAL and showing SHARP falloff, and keeping in mind that newer dungeons cost more and more to make and they are not paying off. And keep in mind we are comaring ALL base game dungeons against a single dungeon DLC, comparing individual base game dungeons would prove to be even worse bet for DLC dungeons. Or comparing all base game dungeons with ALL DLC dungeons combined (which would end up as 4.5% vs 0.1%)

Don't you have access to the achievement completion rate for achievements like "Shadows of the Hist Explorer"? That's access data.

And yes, I think it's interesting. Base game vs. DLC completion dropoff is an interesting number to look at. But that dropoff could be any number of reasons. Maybe someone quit the game before the DLC came out. Maybe someone never bothered to buy the DLC or subscribe. Access vs. completion is a different, but still interesting, number to look at. Maybe they had trouble completing? Maybe they just got it from ESO+ but have no interest in dungeons in general. It's a different context. But still interesting and worth looking at.

I fail to understand why you are so dead-set against looking at numbers from a different angle. Aren't you the least bit curious?

vesselwiththepestle · March 2019

I like the nerfs.

Now I'd like to see a new questing area which has higher difficulty than Craglorn, full of Delves & Public Dungeons of Veteran difficulty. That would be cool. Challenging Public Dungeons. Group Quests of Veteran difficulty with bosses comparable to Vet DLC HM bosses. I'd love that.

Chaos2088 · March 2019

Well if I owned the game i would want the new content to be the hard content so would drive players to keep playing the new stuff so 1) they don’t get bored and call my game stale, 2) keeps them busy getting achievements, skins, show off titles etc 3) people buy it

MikaHR · March 2019

That is not access data, that is "random player porting into dungeon" data. Which is meaningless in itself. It doesnt even show how many people have access to it (as most never bothered to even port to it), or how many attempts were made.. ... ..

Im only interested in looking at meaninful numbers, and only meninful ones (that we have access to) are completion numbers, or, how many people are interested in dungeon DLCs (compared to base game dungeons).

If you manage to procure any more meaninful data from ZOS, im more than willing to discuss those numbers too.

sevomd69 · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

"Why are they nerfing dungeons?"

DLC dungeons are waste of money. Unles they make them immensly popular....somehow, motifs, gear and all other rewards as "encouragement" failed miserably, no one wants to play them no matter what devs do and how much rewards they shower players with. And now shoving main STORY into them....is a big fail on ZOSs part.

"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."

I believe those stats are from all players...not only ESO players...at least on XB that is the case...

MikaHR · March 2019

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

I like the nerfs.

Now I'd like to see a new questing area which has higher difficulty than Craglorn, full of Delves & Public Dungeons of Veteran difficulty. That would be cool. Challenging Public Dungeons. Group Quests of Veteran difficulty with bosses comparable to Vet DLC HM bosses. I'd love that.

We have already seen it....and seen it fail miserably and ESO almost ded because of it (saved only by console launch, if it werent for consoles there woudlnt be ESO to play any more). They had to rework whole game (Craglorn included) to rectify THAT mistake for console launch.

code65536 · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

That is not access data, that is "random player porting into dungeon" data. Which is meaningless in itself. It doesnt even show how many people have access to it (as most never bothered to even port to it), or how many attempts were made.. ... ..

Im only interested in looking at meaninful numbers, and only meninful ones (that we have access to) are completion numbers, or, how many people are interested in dungeon DLCs (compared to base game dungeons).

If you manage to procure any more meaninful data from ZOS, im more than willing to discuss those numbers too.

Fine. I won't call it "access data". I'll call it "data of people who have access to the dungeon and then bothered to port in at one point".

I don't care. I just want something that filters out the large numbers of players who don't even play the game. Yes, comparing base game clearance with DLC clearance is useful. But so is comparing people who have access and took the active step of using a wayshrine versus the number of people who then actually completed the content. I'm just curious, and all I'm asking is for you to sate that curiosity. Why is this such a difficult request?

MikaHR · March 2019

I am curious too, but not keen on discussing pretty meningless data (and data you mention is pretty meningless, you can have all kinds of data and keep reaching to make it look meaningful, but it wont make it any less meaningless).

As i said, if you procure any more meaninful data from ZOS, you are welcome to present and discuss it.

code65536 · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

I am curious too, but not keen on discussing pretty meningless data (and data you mention is pretty meningless, you can have all kinds of data and keep reaching to make it look meaningful, but it wont make it any less meaningless).

As i said, if you procure any more meaninful data from ZOS, you are welcome to present and discuss it.

Not asking for a discussion. Just want to see how many people clear DLC dungeons in normal and vet, as a proportion of players who are active enough to be bothered to port in at least once. You might think it's meaningless, but why not let the reader decide?

JinMori · March 2019

cheifsoap wrote: »

This isn't rocket science. All you need to do is look at the completion rate of each of these achievements and dungeons. They're clearly too difficult for the average customer and this is what its all about, their customers. No offense to those who grind out the hard content but you don't make up the majority of their customer base, the average Joe and Jane do and if they're not completing the content than something is horribly wrong with the content. I'm personally okay with them nerfing everything, it shows that they're learning from their competition (WoW) and with the recent influx of WoW players, its working. Kudos to them

You do realize that the reason why some are coming here is only because wow is just garbage currently, eso is the 2nd selection for them, not the first.

And i agree, wow is better than eso in many ways, during legion i didn't even touch eso.

Bigevilpeter · March 2019

When did these nerfs happen?

Dubhliam · March 2019

@ZOS_Finn
While it might be reasonable to look at completion rates, and take action to improve those numbers, I think that you took a big bite all at once instead of slowly introducing some changes and monitoring performance.

There are some great changes in there that I fully support:
Galchobar
Increased the visibility of various radial telegraphs. GREAT
Decreased the overall damage done by Galchobar. Sure, why not
Decreased the damage done by Galchobar's Scorched Earth in Normal mode. OKAY
Decreased the damage of Lava Geyser in Veteran mode. Uncalled for
Added a screen shake effect to Galchobar's bellow. GREAT
Removed the Stone Atronachs from the encounter. WTF?! WHY?!!
Decreased the health of the Fire Shalks. sure
More Fire Shalks will now be summoned during the encounter, but less frequently. sure
Decreased the damage done by the Fire Shalk's Lava Ball and Flame Surge abilities. uncalled for
Added a center screen message when a player is targeted by the Fire Shalk's Lava Ball. GREAT
Added a flashing telegraph to the player being chased by the Fire Shalk's Lava Ball. GREAT

So there are some great quality of life changes that help players identify mechanics and react to them.
Then there are simple nerfs and plain removal of mechanics.

I mean, you made such a great effort to introduce the Shalks a great while before te encounter, even showing their animation at the first encounter.
The boss prior Galchobar is unbeatable if you don't understand the Stone Atronarch mechanics.
Ergo this boss is just a rehash of what you've already learned through the dungeon plus one new boss mechanic.

These changes WILL improve the clearance rate for Galchobar, but I am sure it would have been improved even without the removal of Stone Atronarchs and the Lava Geyser and Lava Ball nerf.

Please, I know this means little now since you won't revert the changes, but in the future don't make a lot of changes all at once until you can definitely identify something as the reason for wipes.

mcagatayg · March 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

Very good. Maybe this will get more players involved. The small minority of players who run more difficult content have a blind spot for the average ESO player. I do not. I'm married to one, and have friends who also fall into the casual category. The average player does not want to be challenged beyond their limits, and they don't want to make this game a life goal. Accessibility matters, and this sort of thing is a step in the right direction. Hard mode isn't being nerfed, and there's no need to be snide about the skill level of players who just want to have fun. Sad, really, that any of that even needs to be said.

Accessibility was always there. It was called normal mode. Vet was supposed to be for those looking for a challenge.

True. ZoS nerfing dungeons is like you getting a participation trophy... Useless, and rewards laziness...

profundidob16_ESO · March 2019

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

When did these nerfs happen?

yesterday during the monday patch maintenance