Why are they nerfing dungeons?

profundidob16_ESO · March 2019

James-Wayne wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

but why they nerf them I dunno....maybe they have a Idea on how to progress with CP changes, and are already wokring on adjustments for the content.

Agreed. I think there is some big changes coming soon.

the complete removal of CP system would nicely balance things out...;)

redlink1979 · March 2019

Nerfed because many can't understand/follow the mechanics. I've been taking these dungeons on veteran mode with a tank and 3 dd group with self heals... From this update on you won't need a healer at all. Totally overrated lol

Veinblood1965 · March 2019

This makes me uneasy also, I run a lot of dungeons and to ruin the challenge just so people don't have to learn the mechanics. All these changes lately might be time for me to move on. Eventually it will be one class with all the same skills and cookie cutter game play. I'd like to know why all the changes also, sometimes it's best to just leave things alone.

code65536 · March 2019

Because it sets the floor for new content and what is expected from players, how are you going to improve if everything stays easy and when you are faced with a challenge instead of getting better you wait for it to get nerfed, new players Will not improve if the content doesnt force them to.

So... they take away some difficult dungeons in a patch where they add two new difficult dungeons. People who like the tough content have the new dungeons and trifectas to chew on. And older DLC dungeons now fall in difficulty to fill that difficulty gap and act as stepping stones for people who are moving up the difficulty ladder.

My initial reaction to all this was "NOOOOO, HOW DARE YOU NERF THIS?!" But the more I think about it, the more I think it's the right thing to do. Difficult content still exists and there is still material to challenge those who want a challenge. As much as I lament the nerfs to the older DLC dungeons, I have to admit I haven't touched them in months. And if their nerfs give people a stepping stone between base game dungeons and the newer DLC dungeons, then that's probably a good thing.

HappyLittleTree · March 2019

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Strange people mention mechanics and it's just a case of others getting good. Stating people should be willing to learn. I've been in grps where mechanics were irrelevant because of the dps on show. There have even been people in those groups that have admitted they have no idea about most of the mechanics because the bosses are dead before those mechanics even come into play.

How is burning *** down asap learning dungeon mechanics?

Exactly so why make them even easier?

Here's something a guildmate said today in discord it's just genius

:

Could you imagine in school or at work if you’re like “excuse me... I don’t think I’m good enough to get this degree... could you make it easier?”
“Sure! You’ll be a Doctor yet"

Wifeaggro13 · March 2019

mcagatayg wrote: »

Especially old ones like Cradle of Shadows and Bloodroot etc... They are already easy to complete compared to new ones, and they were easy to do with 3 DDs. Now there is no need for a healer.

ZOS missed the mark with their combat dynamic. the role system was very blurry at launch in the way things functioned. now its non existent. I was hoping the new combat director would really start to tweak the system in the other direction. but i just dont think ZOS is interested in dynamic game play. . Just make Mo money sell them as much PB&J content for the cost of a steak dinner and the IP will carry the load.

Sigtric · March 2019

Namarkas wrote: »

Just wow. Some changes here that completly remove any interesting stuff some fights had to offer.
Dungeons

White Gold Tower
Planar Inhibitor
Heat Stroke will now be fully cleansed from a player that disrupts the Inhibitor Pinion.
Heat Stroke now correctly appear as a debuff, and no longer stacks beyond 12.
Fixed an issue with the visual effects for Heat Stroke not appearing correctly.
The Inhibitor Pinion now reactivates faster after interacting with it.
Your character will no longer suffer a stacking snare during Daedric Catastrophe when being chased by the Planar Inhibitor.
Added a targeting telegraph to the player that the Planar Inhibitor is chasing during Daedric Catastrophe.
Increased the time it takes for Plane Meld Rifts to summon the first Dremora.
Plane Meld Rifts now only summon a single Dremora total.
Magma Diver and Cataclysmic Geyser can now be dodged.
Updated various telegraphs to be more visible and informative.

I mean what is left in that encounter after this? it's just another boring "tank takes it" boss

It was already a tank takes it fight for a lot of groups. A lot of the people I play with have already been ignoring that mechanic because we can push through it. It's a real headscratcher as to why it was dumbed down.

Masel · March 2019

code65536 wrote: »

Because it sets the floor for new content and what is expected from players, how are you going to improve if everything stays easy and when you are faced with a challenge instead of getting better you wait for it to get nerfed, new players Will not improve if the content doesnt force them to.

So... they take away some difficult dungeons in a patch where they add two new difficult dungeons. People who like the tough content have the new dungeons and trifectas to chew on. And older DLC dungeons now fall in difficulty to fill that difficulty gap and act as stepping stones for people who are moving up the difficulty ladder.

My initial reaction to all this was "NOOOOO, HOW DARE YOU NERF THIS?!" But the more I think about it, the more I think it's the right thing to do. Difficult content still exists and there is still material to challenge those who want a challenge. As much as I lament the nerfs to the older DLC dungeons, I have to admit I haven't touched them in months. And if their nerfs give people a stepping stone between base game dungeons and the newer DLC dungeons, then that's probably a good thing.

Exactly my feeling. I was upset at first but since i know why they did it, it feels justified...

HappyLittleTree · March 2019

ZOS has probably a bigger future vision for the game which they have to lay the foundation for, so for now i will watch their steps and enjoy the game^^

profundidob16_ESO · March 2019

Bottomline there is only 1 step left for ZOS in order to complete these changes for random group finder:

-Rename "Normal" dungeon queue to "Story mode". (all the people of lesser skill have been screaming for ages for a modus where mechanics don't matter)

-Rename "Veteran" dungeon queue to "Normal" (for people who want to learn mechanics and apply them)

and then everything fits nicely !

(and the 3% skilled people that actually like a challenge go play Dark Souls =P)

mcagatayg · March 2019

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Bottomline there is only 1 step left for ZOS in order to complete these changes for random group finder:

-Rename "Normal" dungeon queue to "Story mode". (all the people of lesser skill have been screaming for ages for a modus where mechanics don't matter)

-Rename "Veteran" dungeon queue to "Normal" (for people who want to learn mechanics and apply them)

and then everything fits nicely !

(and the 3% skilled people that actually like a challenge go play Dark Souls =P)

What is this obsession with dark souls? I havent even played that game because its single player. ESO and Dark souls are 2 very different games, please stop comparing them with each other.

profundidob16_ESO · March 2019

HappyLittleTree wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Strange people mention mechanics and it's just a case of others getting good. Stating people should be willing to learn. I've been in grps where mechanics were irrelevant because of the dps on show. There have even been people in those groups that have admitted they have no idea about most of the mechanics because the bosses are dead before those mechanics even come into play.

How is burning *** down asap learning dungeon mechanics?

Exactly so why make them even easier?

Here's something a guildmate said today in discord it's just genius :

Could you imagine in school or at work if you’re like “excuse me... I don’t think I’m good enough to get this degree... could you make it easier?”
“Sure! You’ll be a Doctor yet"

And here's a genius reply from someone else today:

"If we're talking about doctors as in saving human lives out in the real world we have a valid need for them to be truly skilled and keep the bar high. But we're talking about people here playing a virtual game to pass their free time and simply have fun. Should we play all TV content in a mix of 6 different languages as well to make people do effort and increase their language skills ?"

profundidob16_ESO · March 2019

HappyLittleTree wrote: »

ZOS has probably a bigger future vision for the game which they have to lay the foundation for, so for now i will watch their steps and enjoy the game^^

You're right. It's about to replace tv...

mcagatayg · March 2019

HappyLittleTree wrote: »

ZOS has probably a bigger future vision for the game which they have to lay the foundation for, so for now i will watch their steps and enjoy the game^^

Then maybe mention it? Nerfing old content, definitely outdated, is not helping anyone. It will force "laziness", not wanting to learn and just burning through content upon players . Which is exactly the problem imo.

Numerikuu · March 2019

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

They have a very specific reason why they did it. I cannot tell you since we are under NDA but they arent doing it to negatively affect healers in any way.

The reason that I was given is the reason that many people in this thread had already suspected: Their metrics showed that the completion rates were too low.

Well imagine my shock!

Facefister · March 2019

mcagatayg wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Bottomline there is only 1 step left for ZOS in order to complete these changes for random group finder:

-Rename "Normal" dungeon queue to "Story mode". (all the people of lesser skill have been screaming for ages for a modus where mechanics don't matter)

-Rename "Veteran" dungeon queue to "Normal" (for people who want to learn mechanics and apply them)

and then everything fits nicely !

(and the 3% skilled people that actually like a challenge go play Dark Souls =P)

What is this obsession with dark souls? I havent even played that game because its single player. ESO and Dark souls are 2 very different games, please stop comparing them with each other.

Because Dark Souls is perceived as a "hardcore" game which is not. That game rewards preparation and intelligent playing well and punishes "yolo" actions hard. Since your average "gamer" loves to pull off "yolo" action, Dark Souls became the "hardcore game for hardcore gamers"-meme

Dagoth_Rac · March 2019

I know the upcoming Trial in Elsweyr is going to have a Hard Mode for every boss, not just the final boss. Perhaps that is something ZOS intend to add to all DLC bosses, eventually? For now, they are toning down some of the PUG-Killer bosses as an immediate step, but these mechanics will one day come back as hard mode for that boss? Adding hard modes to each boss in all DLC Dungeons/Trials, not just the final boss, would be an interesting way to add a "third tier" to DLC Trials/Dungeons that uses existing game functionality.

Just put a "Scroll of Glorious Battle" before every boss. Then, casual players can play Normal, mid-tier players can play Veteran, and top-tier players can play Veteran Hard Mode. You could even mix and match hard mode and non-hard mode of different bosses within one instance based on group. Just don't read scroll if you realize this particular boss is just not going to happen on hard mode with current group, even if you do all the other bosses in hard mode.

The big problem with endgame group content right now is that Normal is too easy for 90% of players and Veteran is too hard for 90% of players. And requests that everyone just "git gud" are not realistic. Those requests basically come down to, "Why can't 100% of players be Top 10% players!?" There will always be players of varying skill. Exceptionally good, exceptionally bad, and everything in between.

ZOS need to figure out a way to make content appealing to a wider range of players. These latest changes are just shuffling around who it appeals to (i.e., from top-tier to mid-tier). But hopefully it is a first step.

Facefister · March 2019

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I know the upcoming Trial in Elsweyr is going to have a Hard Mode for every boss, not just the final boss. Perhaps that is something ZOS intend to add to all DLC bosses, eventually? For now, they are toning down some of the PUG-Killer bosses as an immediate step, but these mechanics will one day come back as hard mode for that boss? Adding hard modes to each boss in all DLC Dungeons/Trials, not just the final boss, would be an interesting way to add a "third tier" to DLC Trials/Dungeons that uses existing game functionality.

Just put a "Scroll of Glorious Battle" before every boss. Then, casual players can play Normal, mid-tier players can play Veteran, and top-tier players can play Veteran Hard Mode. You could even mix and match hard mode and non-hard mode of different bosses within one instance based on group. Just don't read scroll if you realize this particular boss is just not going to happen on hard mode with current group, even if you do all the other bosses in hard mode.

The big problem with endgame group content right now is that Normal is too easy for 90% of players and Veteran is too hard for 90% of players. And requests that everyone just "git gud" are not realistic. Those requests basically come down to, "Why can't 100% of players be Top 10% players!?" There will always be players of varying skill. Exceptionally good, exceptionally bad, and everything in between.

ZOS need to figure out a way to make content appealing to a wider range of players. These latest changes are just shuffling around who it appeals to (i.e., from top-tier to mid-tier). But hopefully it is a first step.

Or just introduce a third difficulty where you have a chance to golden jewelry.

Tasear · March 2019

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I know the upcoming Trial in Elsweyr is going to have a Hard Mode for every boss, not just the final boss. Perhaps that is something ZOS intend to add to all DLC bosses, eventually? For now, they are toning down some of the PUG-Killer bosses as an immediate step, but these mechanics will one day come back as hard mode for that boss? Adding hard modes to each boss in all DLC Dungeons/Trials, not just the final boss, would be an interesting way to add a "third tier" to DLC Trials/Dungeons that uses existing game functionality.

Just put a "Scroll of Glorious Battle" before every boss. Then, casual players can play Normal, mid-tier players can play Veteran, and top-tier players can play Veteran Hard Mode. You could even mix and match hard mode and non-hard mode of different bosses within one instance based on group. Just don't read scroll if you realize this particular boss is just not going to happen on hard mode with current group, even if you do all the other bosses in hard mode.

The big problem with endgame group content right now is that Normal is too easy for 90% of players and Veteran is too hard for 90% of players. And requests that everyone just "git gud" are not realistic. Those requests basically come down to, "Why can't 100% of players be Top 10% players!?" There will always be players of varying skill. Exceptionally good, exceptionally bad, and everything in between.

ZOS need to figure out a way to make content appealing to a wider range of players. These latest changes are just shuffling around who it appeals to (i.e., from top-tier to mid-tier). But hopefully it is a first step.

That sounds like a a pain to balance out ...

There's a lot of human factors, experience, time commitment, desire and what mechs appeal but don't overwhelm people. Not to mention dungeons are very have to learn how to play outsourced.

profundidob16_ESO · March 2019

Facefister wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I know the upcoming Trial in Elsweyr is going to have a Hard Mode for every boss, not just the final boss. Perhaps that is something ZOS intend to add to all DLC bosses, eventually? For now, they are toning down some of the PUG-Killer bosses as an immediate step, but these mechanics will one day come back as hard mode for that boss? Adding hard modes to each boss in all DLC Dungeons/Trials, not just the final boss, would be an interesting way to add a "third tier" to DLC Trials/Dungeons that uses existing game functionality.

Just put a "Scroll of Glorious Battle" before every boss. Then, casual players can play Normal, mid-tier players can play Veteran, and top-tier players can play Veteran Hard Mode. You could even mix and match hard mode and non-hard mode of different bosses within one instance based on group. Just don't read scroll if you realize this particular boss is just not going to happen on hard mode with current group, even if you do all the other bosses in hard mode.

The big problem with endgame group content right now is that Normal is too easy for 90% of players and Veteran is too hard for 90% of players. And requests that everyone just "git gud" are not realistic. Those requests basically come down to, "Why can't 100% of players be Top 10% players!?" There will always be players of varying skill. Exceptionally good, exceptionally bad, and everything in between.

ZOS need to figure out a way to make content appealing to a wider range of players. These latest changes are just shuffling around who it appeals to (i.e., from top-tier to mid-tier). But hopefully it is a first step.

Or just introduce a third difficulty where you have a chance to golden jewelry.

and lock it behind a role-specific vMA-style tutorial-trial in which you must prove enough human skill and gear in order to be able to queue

mongoLC · March 2019

About time. DLC dungeons were a pain in the ass. Why have content nobody wants to do?

goldenarcher1 · March 2019

Baltharuch wrote: »

Can we get some developer notes or something? I'm really curious as to the reasoning behind removing mechanics and the rest of the nerfs. What's the goal they had in mind with this, other than the speculation in this thread?

It's quite simple really.

How often do you see it in zone chat>"LFG pledges non-DLC"

Insta-wipe mechanics don't go down well with the majority of the player-base.

Osteos · March 2019

goldenarcher1 wrote: »

Baltharuch wrote: »

Can we get some developer notes or something? I'm really curious as to the reasoning behind removing mechanics and the rest of the nerfs. What's the goal they had in mind with this, other than the speculation in this thread?

It's quite simple really.

How often do you see it in zone chat>"LFG pledges non-DLC"

Insta-wipe mechanics don't go down well with the majority of the player-base.

Agreed and most of us who can complete them won't pug them. We go with friends and guild groups Which also adds to the problem.

ayu_fever · March 2019

dlc dungeons nerfed???

GOOD!!!

but all the dlc dungeons need several more nerfs because dlc dungeons are too hard.

i am only referring to normal mode! dont change veteran and hard mode, or make it harder. i dont care. i dont do veteran content. i leave thta nonsense for the meta chasing alcast drone toxic elitists!
we filthy casuals want to play the dlc dungeon content just on normal and we want it vastly nerfed to be more accessible.
this will not have any negative effects on meta chasing alcast drone toxic elitists who just play veteran anyway.

sevomd69 · March 2019

Who cares? They were easy anyway...now you can just pug them for the pledges if need be.... nobody does those dungeons for challenges anyway....Don't remember this caterwauling when they nerfed MoS, FL, MHK...etc...

Eterminix · March 2019

ayu_fever wrote: »

dlc dungeons nerfed???

GOOD!!!

but all the dlc dungeons need several more nerfs because dlc dungeons are too hard.

i am only referring to normal mode! dont change veteran and hard mode, or make it harder. i dont care. i dont do veteran content. i leave thta nonsense for the meta chasing alcast drone toxic elitists!
we filthy casuals want to play the dlc dungeon content just on normal and we want it vastly nerfed to be more accessible.
this will not have any negative effects on meta chasing alcast drone toxic elitists who just play veteran anyway.

pretty sure that doing vet content doesnt actually make you an elitist... and theres a good number of people who play off-meta as well.. but hey..i could be wrong

emilyhyoyeon · March 2019

I like the changes where mechanics are more clearly telegraphed, but I'm not sure how I feel about the damage nerfs

SaintSubwayy · March 2019

They have a very specific reason why they did it. I cannot tell you since we are under NDA but they arent doing it to negatively affect healers in any way. ....

well sounds very likely to be the CP nuke we're expecting to hit with elsweyr

Wifeaggro13 · March 2019

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

They have a very specific reason why they did it. I cannot tell you since we are under NDA but they arent doing it to negatively affect healers in any way. ....

well sounds very likely to be the CP nuke we're expecting to hit with elsweyr

the CP system should have been fixed and expanded upon years ago. but its not unlike ZOS to put in a good half finished system then back peddle on it because its easier to nerf it then complete it.

SaintSubwayy · March 2019

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

They have a very specific reason why they did it. I cannot tell you since we are under NDA but they arent doing it to negatively affect healers in any way. ....

well sounds very likely to be the CP nuke we're expecting to hit with elsweyr

the CP system should have been fixed and expanded upon years ago. but its not unlike ZOS to put in a good half finished system then back peddle on it because its easier to nerf it then complete it.

well jeah, the CP system in itself was a good idea...implemented poorly
but thats the ZOS way it seems....rather than fixing something they do workarounds.

like the Unrezzable bug in HRC -> now one group wipess, both wipe (cause they couldnt fix the bug that one group couldnt revive after it wiped, since other group was still in combat)

today again with the unrezzable bug in CR aka no ghost bug...rather then fixing it, so everytime you die a ghost will spawn, they have a workarround -> no ghost spawns, well then you wont get the rezz debuff

I mean comon, fix it correctly, or dont fix it...I personally hope that they broke it that now no ghosts spawn ever, so you can normally rez like in other trials...