Why are they nerfing dungeons?

Tasear

Soul19reaper wrote: »

Well this is a good step afterall it's not a souls game and those vet content were being completed only by a minority of playerbase like 2 or 3% which isn't good for playerbase nor the company , most of dlc dungeons were useless cause only high level elitist are able to complete but now it might be for the rest of audience as well!

I am honestly curious though? Where did people struggle with some of these changes. Then again I like pugging content..so should probably rejoice.. still seems excessive though.

Nefaras

Soul19reaper wrote: »

Well this is a good step afterall it's not a souls game and those vet content were being completed only by a minority of playerbase like 2 or 3% which isn't good for playerbase nor the company , most of dlc dungeons were useless cause only high level elitist are able to complete but now it might be for the rest of audience as well!

First people cry about that story is locked behind dungeon content in a MMORPG ...wooow. A Game where you should play with people.

Now content that is called VETERAN Dungeons (the name says it for me content that is build for players that want a challenge with their character) will get nerfed that more pugs can do them?

Holy. Always did play eso hardcore casual but never had any problems with Dungeons, Its just that if you suck with your class and your rotation, dont do the *** that is going on in dungeons you die and cant beat them. If you come back better , you can do it like many people did before.

Gaming 2019 is really all about ...nah no learning , no time investment just chilling *** and give money for fancy stuff.

lokulin

This is great news. More people will be able to complete more content while there is still hard content for the players that want a challenge. Everyone hits their skill ceiling sooner or later so it is great that people that previously couldn't complete some of the older content might now be able to.

Pevey

This will not make healers widely unnecessary. I think people worry about that way too much. Only a very, very small percentage of people on the game prefer to form groups for vet dlc without healers. My pug-proof healer has most of the dlc dungeon achievements and can get a group faster than any of my toons, despite not being my main.

Zos has the stats on how many people are actually completing these dungeons. I think it is great they they are making them just a little more accessible.

Wolfahm

People that struggle with Vet or Vet HM have not yet progressed in game ability to do said content. Let them learn. If they can't.. normal is a option.. you can't nerf content into the floor because someone can't do a *HARD MODE* That is caving to entitlement of people that think they have the right to beat all modes of a game they are not skilled enough to finish.

By this logic they need to nerf all Vet trials next.. then vet HM's so that people can get deathless titles right? tons of games fall into this trap of trying to make everything doable for everyone at all settings.

Masel

I'm disappointed. They removed many interesting machanics.

How are players supposed to learn for harder content if not in these dungeons?

We need fights that require active mechanic gameplay and these changes make a lot of fights that required that less interesting.

We need palyers to actively engage with mechanics and these changes do not encourage that at all.

We're talking about veteran dungeons here, if you want to complete a veteran DLC dungeons you should play mechanics.

Tasear

Pevey wrote: »

This will not make healers widely unnecessary. I think people worry about that way too much. Only a very, very small percentage of people on the game prefer to form groups for vet dlc without healers. My pug-proof healer has most of the dlc dungeon achievements and can get a group faster than any of my toons, despite not being my main.

Zos has the stats on how many people are actually completing these dungeons. I think it is great they they are making them just a little more accessible.

That name you use is interesting... but yeah guess we will have to wait and see but it had to be mentioned that worry does exist.

profundidob16_ESO

Tasear wrote: »

Soul19reaper wrote: »

Well this is a good step afterall it's not a souls game and those vet content were being completed only by a minority of playerbase like 2 or 3% which isn't good for playerbase nor the company , most of dlc dungeons were useless cause only high level elitist are able to complete but now it might be for the rest of audience as well!

I am honestly curious though? Where did people struggle with some of these changes. Then again I like pugging content..so should probably rejoice.. still seems excessive though.

If you have no idea where they struggle you clearly don't pug enough by far. As a challenger achievment hunter and PTS lover that enjoys starting on content in their hardest form before the nerftrain I can honestly say that when I join pugs I am sometimes baffled and speechless on how some players are completely dead weight that have 0 interest or competence in learning and respecting mechanics. You would think you simply replace them and get it done but no...it turns out you get another of these to take the place of the first one...

As much as I hate to see mechanics being destroyed I 100% support this change round after all the unreal pug experiences I've seen with my own eyes. Devs are simply readjusting the content to cater to the whole playerbase including the massive influx of newer (clueless) players and 2019 mmo habits of people not wanting to learn full mechanics. In other words they are readjusting so that good players can compensate for and carry the dead weight players past the 'difficult' bosses.

r34lian

Nefaras wrote: »

Soul19reaper wrote: »

Well this is a good step afterall it's not a souls game and those vet content were being completed only by a minority of playerbase like 2 or 3% which isn't good for playerbase nor the company , most of dlc dungeons were useless cause only high level elitist are able to complete but now it might be for the rest of audience as well!

First people cry about that story is locked behind dungeon content in a MMORPG ...wooow. A Game where you should play with people.

Now content that is called VETERAN Dungeons (the name says it for me content that is build for players that want a challenge with their character) will get nerfed that more pugs can do them?

Holy. Always did play eso hardcore casual but never had any problems with Dungeons, Its just that if you suck with your class and your rotation, dont do the *** that is going on in dungeons you die and cant beat them. If you come back better , you can do it like many people did before.

Gaming 2019 is really all about ...nah no learning , no time investment just chilling *** and give money for fancy stuff.

People also have lives and This is a mmorpg and people who seek hardcore here really sucks at so called "hardcore games" whether be it witcher 3 or darksouls etc which are targeted towards hardcore gamers my point why make a content that only very few population can complete not even 10% across all platforms Aand since this is group content it dosent depends entirely on your skill alone.

Tigerseye

They need three levels of dungeon.

Normals are too easy for most endgame players (most can solo them, or nearly solo them).

Then there is/was a huge difficulty gap between Normal and Vet.

Where most players - even those who can solo some Normals - can't do vets in PUGs.

So, you either needed a nerf, or you needed a middle level to be introduced, to provide that stepping stone between the two.

Not to mention that there are major issues with bash (amongst other things...):

1. The game doesn't teach you how to do it.
2. You can't assign it to a single key (big mistake).
3. If you don't play with a mouse and/or you try to reassign its components to 2 keys, it doesn't seem to work properly.

These kind of fundamental issues need to be sorted out before you can expect PUGs to deal with non-standard mechanics, in dungeons.

Baltharuch

Can we get some developer notes or something? I'm really curious as to the reasoning behind removing mechanics and the rest of the nerfs. What's the goal they had in mind with this, other than the speculation in this thread?

Bosov

lokulin wrote: »

This is great news. More people will be able to complete more content while there is still hard content for the players that want a challenge. Everyone hits their skill ceiling sooner or later so it is great that people that previously couldn't complete some of the older content might now be able to.

If white gold tower is too hard you should go into something like City of Ash 2 and get better intead of going into WGT. If you couldnt do pre nerf wgt than you should practice instead of having wgt nerfed.

We have about 500 more cp now than when wgt released and somehow it gets a nerf now? It just makes no sense.

Masel

lokulin wrote: »

This is great news. More people will be able to complete more content while there is still hard content for the players that want a challenge. Everyone hits their skill ceiling sooner or later so it is great that people that previously couldn't complete some of the older content might now be able to.

This is fine, sure. But how can players learn the harder content if the gap between the difficulties gets bigger and bigger? How can endgame or progression guilds recruit people if they don't learn how to handle different types of mechanics first? It seems that every fight that requires players to do mechanics is too much these days...

mcagatayg

Masel wrote: »

I'm disappointed. They removed many interesting machanics.

How are players supposed to learn for harder content if not in these dungeons?

We need fights that require active mechanic gameplay and these changes make a lot of fights that required that less interesting.

We need palyers to actively engage with mechanics and these changes do not encourage that at all.

We're talking about veteran dungeons here, if you want to complete a veteran DLC dungeons you should play mechanics.

Completely agree with you. If people want to do learn about lore and story, you can always do it with ease in normal anyway. This change just makes me think maybe i should not be bothered to finish newest DLC aswell. I will just wait for them to nerf it anyway.

Tasear

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

To make them possible for PvPers because they complain that they are too hard.

PhAhAHAhAhA

git gud dude,
vet DLC hm dungeons are EZ for true skilled PvPers, we have the reflexes, we have the superior animation canceling, and we don`t need 40k dummy dps to "Think that" we are able to complete some content.
And yeah we dont need healers, just because we keep our selfhealing and shields up 24/7 because this is what GOOD player should do.

problem with skilled PvP palyers they have nearly 0 DPS comapred to skiled PvE players. And get two skilled PvP players as Dd when i play tank is pain even in easy non DLC dung, bc with low DPS its sooo long and soooboring

Yeah PvP players seem to be bringing interesting attitude of late that pve players aren't skilled and all we do is play with test dummy, but I honestly see hardly any team tactics in cydrolli. Hell the sieges which could of use real teamwork but...

Wolfahm

simple fix.. don't que for something outside your skill level.

*shoots can with airgun from 10 feet away*
... TIME TO APPLY FOR THE NEXT SPEC OP's MISSION IN AN ELITE FIGHTING UNIT WHERE IS MY RIFLE?!

Skayaq

Tigerseye wrote: »

Not to mention that there are major issues with bash (amongst other things...):

1. The game doesn't teach you how to do it.
2. You can't assign it to a single key (big mistake).
3. If you don't play with a mouse and/or you try to reassign its components to 2 keys, it doesn't seem to work properly.

These kind of fundamental issues need to be sorted out before you can expect PUGs to deal with non-standard mechanics, in dungeons.

1. You have to use bash to get through the tutorial.
2. you can bind bash to a single key.

code65536

Wolfahm wrote: »

you can't nerf content into the floor because someone can't do a *HARD MODE*

So... which Hard Mode got nerfed?

Tigerseye

LiraTaurwen wrote: »

I didn't even get the chance to try them on veteran mode yet

You don't know how lucky you are.

lokulin

Masel wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

This is great news. More people will be able to complete more content while there is still hard content for the players that want a challenge. Everyone hits their skill ceiling sooner or later so it is great that people that previously couldn't complete some of the older content might now be able to.

This is fine, sure. But how can players learn the harder content if the gap between the difficulties gets bigger and bigger? How can endgame or progression guilds recruit people if they don't learn how to handle different types of mechanics first? It seems that every fight that requires players to do mechanics is too much these days...

By improving the gradient between non-DLC and DLC dungeons and easing people into mechanics. There are still plenty of training grounds.

Wolfahm

I am saying this is where it starts.. it happens in every game. Vet mode is already Vet mode its a option..
maybe I am being overly critical but I have seen that kind of road taken to many times elsewhere.

John_Falstaff

Masel wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

This is great news. More people will be able to complete more content while there is still hard content for the players that want a challenge. Everyone hits their skill ceiling sooner or later so it is great that people that previously couldn't complete some of the older content might now be able to.

This is fine, sure. But how can players learn the harder content if the gap between the difficulties gets bigger and bigger? How can endgame or progression guilds recruit people if they don't learn how to handle different types of mechanics first? It seems that every fight that requires players to do mechanics is too much these days...

I'm frankly not sure if it increases the gap. As a more or less experienced player with an experienced group, I just nuke the Inhibitor, it's not a problem with good group damage. Newbie players did not have the damage, and they did not have the skill to fight the by-the-book way of doing it, with spawning mobs, stacking snare and heat stroke. Now, for me nothing changed for most part, I'll probably keep nuking it, but less experienced players will also be able to do it. So if anything, it closes the gap. Sure, there should be content that makes players learn mechanics, but maybe they've decided that this spike of difficulty in the middle of dungeon was too much.

code65536

I don't like these nerfs, and I think that the older DLC dungeons have already been indirectly nerfed by way of power creep (that does not come from CP ).

But the hyperbolic nature of some of these comments is ridiculous. The Hard Modes are untouched. While these changes don't encourage healers, they don't discourage them either.

Masel wrote: »

How are players supposed to learn for harder content if not in these dungeons?

This increases the difficulty gap between vet dungeons and higher difficulty content like DLC HMs and vet trials. But this decreases the difficulty gap between normal dungeons and vet dungeons. So which gap is the harder gap to cross, for people who are working their way up the difficulty ladder? I guess ZOS thought that it was the latter.

Tigerseye

Skayaq wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Not to mention that there are major issues with bash (amongst other things...):

1. The game doesn't teach you how to do it.
2. You can't assign it to a single key (big mistake).
3. If you don't play with a mouse and/or you try to reassign its components to 2 keys, it doesn't seem to work properly.

These kind of fundamental issues need to be sorted out before you can expect PUGs to deal with non-standard mechanics, in dungeons.

1. You have to use bash to get through the tutorial.
2. you can bind bash to a single key.

I looked at keybindings and I didn't see Bash there?

Maybe I missed it - will look again when I can log back on.

...and it's been a while, but I don't think I had to use Bash to get through the tutorial?

Do you mean the new tutorial?

If so, I haven't done that.

profundidob16_ESO

HappyLittleTree wrote: »

Dumbing down the game because of people that are not willing to learn mechanics is just stupid.

well, since the numbers and facts of random group finder pugs being unable to complete dlc are plain obvious and undeniable there were really only 2 options to address the problem:

1. Split off vet dlc in another separate queue and lock "non-dlc vet" and "dlc vet" random group finder queues behind vMA-style tutorials to ensure the necessary skill level is present. Maybe even gear checks too upon queuing. Whatever it takes to ensure that random pug groups being formed have what it takes in order to complete the content for the desired skill level.

2. Nerf the DLC dungeons to oblivion until they become just as trivial as the non-dlc dungeons.


Apparently Zos has made their choice...

MartiniDaniels

Honestly saying I don't see how all that will help not-so-experienced people in any way. I mean if you managed to get to vVelidreth, you already have enough skill/dps to complete her mechanics and so on. Nerf to Gladobthar is just an insult. I mean without stone atro and with nerfed shalks it's just easy-peasy even for group with 15k dps. But that group still won't complete final boss.
So changes look like pointless making it easier and more boring for seasoned players but won't helping much to newbies/potatoes.

Seri

code65536 wrote: »

Wolfahm wrote: »

you can't nerf content into the floor because someone can't do a *HARD MODE*

So... which Hard Mode got nerfed?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

Decreased the effectiveness of all negative effects related to the Diseased Spores.
[...]
Decreased the damage done by Deadly Spikes in the catacombs.

No specification here if they were only normal or vet here for Veli... *shrug*

Masel

code65536 wrote: »

I don't like these nerfs, and I think that the older DLC dungeons have already been indirectly nerfed by way of power creep (that does not come from CP ).

But the hyperbolic nature of some of these comments is ridiculous. The Hard Modes are untouched. While these changes don't encourage healers, they don't discourage them either.

I think they do, because more mechanics mean more incoming damage, increasing the positive a healer can have in a group. On Galchobhar for example, these atros dealt a pretty high amount of damage (which a healer can counter), not that they're gone its pretty much a stack and burn fight with jumping on the island every once in a while. Of course you could do it with three DDs before, but it was challenging.

lokulin

Bosov wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

This is great news. More people will be able to complete more content while there is still hard content for the players that want a challenge. Everyone hits their skill ceiling sooner or later so it is great that people that previously couldn't complete some of the older content might now be able to.

If white gold tower is too hard you should go into something like City of Ash 2 and get better intead of going into WGT. If you couldnt do pre nerf wgt than you should practice instead of having wgt nerfed.

We have about 500 more cp now than when wgt released and somehow it gets a nerf now? It just makes no sense.

Oh, my skill/patience ceiling is somewhere near Moon Hunter Keep Hard mode at the moment. And I'll be happy if that gets a slight nerf a few years down the track so I can tick that "achievement" off if I don't get it before then. Just like I ticked of vMA flawless only a few months ago.

The thing is, once people hit their skill ceiling they;ll get bored of playing the same old content over and over again. A simple way of introducing new content to those players is by slowly nerfing some content over time to make it available. And no, just running normal isn't what they want. They want an achievable challenge at their skill level.

mcagatayg

Tigerseye wrote: »

Skayaq wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Not to mention that there are major issues with bash (amongst other things...):

1. The game doesn't teach you how to do it.
2. You can't assign it to a single key (big mistake).
3. If you don't play with a mouse and/or you try to reassign its components to 2 keys, it doesn't seem to work properly.

These kind of fundamental issues need to be sorted out before you can expect PUGs to deal with non-standard mechanics, in dungeons.

1. You have to use bash to get through the tutorial.
2. you can bind bash to a single key.

I looked at keybindings and I didn't see Bash there?

Maybe I missed it - will look again when I can log back on.

...and it's been a while, but I don't think I had to use Bash to get through the tutorial?

Do you mean the new tutorial?

If so, I haven't done that.

It's under combat > interrupt