Why are they nerfing dungeons?

Neoealth · March 2019

This might not be a popular opinion, but i'm glad they have toned down some of the dlc dungeons. They were pug killers. And I like to pug sometimes. I am one of those players who likes to do dungeons to relax and collect things, not push myself to follow strict mechanics, and if you make one little mistake end up wiping.

I totally get people who do like that sort of thing. And don't mis understand, I have completed the dlc dungeons on vet, but honestly, i never really enjoyed them.

I don't like mindless easy content, but I also don't like highly frustrating difficult content. Hopefully these slight nerfs will find a better balance.

Pevey · March 2019

Zos is a business. Dungeon dlc is currently a big part of the content produced, two new packs each year. And the majority of players don’t even want them. If they weren’t included in ESO+, the situation would be even worse. Games don’t fail from making their content accessible. It’s exactly the opposite. Someone at zos is smart enough to look at the sales and player stats for these dungeons and make some (very small, very blown out of proportion in this thread) changes.

Anrose · March 2019

As I posted in another thread...

They’ve been nerfing older DLC dungeons with the introduction of newer ones every year. This isn’t a new thing.

This makes the content more accessible for players who weren’t able to complete them previously while still creating a ladder system for them to climb as they get better.

If a new player is trying to progress and they play through the dungeon DLCs in order, they’ll still get increasingly difficult for them so it creates a sense of progression without being overly punishing.

As an experienced player, now you don’t have to spend as much time in content that you’ve completed one hundred times already. This is a pretty good system, which is something I can’t usually say about this game.

Skayaq · March 2019

Tigerseye wrote: »

Skayaq wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Not to mention that there are major issues with bash (amongst other things...):

1. The game doesn't teach you how to do it.
2. You can't assign it to a single key (big mistake).
3. If you don't play with a mouse and/or you try to reassign its components to 2 keys, it doesn't seem to work properly.

These kind of fundamental issues need to be sorted out before you can expect PUGs to deal with non-standard mechanics, in dungeons.

1. You have to use bash to get through the tutorial.
2. you can bind bash to a single key.

I looked at keybindings and I didn't see Bash there?

Maybe I missed it - will look again when I can log back on.

...and it's been a while, but I don't think I had to use Bash to get through the tutorial?

Do you mean the new tutorial?

If so, I haven't done that.

while I guess technically you didn't have to in the original the first miniboss (the warden something) always had a fairly long cast and the game told you to interrupt it.

The keybinding for bash is called Interrupt, it's listed under the combat section after crouch

profundidob16_ESO · March 2019

Masel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I don't like these nerfs, and I think that the older DLC dungeons have already been indirectly nerfed by way of power creep (that does not come from CP ).

But the hyperbolic nature of some of these comments is ridiculous. The Hard Modes are untouched. While these changes don't encourage healers, they don't discourage them either.

I think they do, because more mechanics mean more incoming damage, increasing the positive a healer can have in a group. On Galchobhar for example, these atros dealt a pretty high amount of damage (which a healer can counter), not that they're gone its pretty much a stack and burn fight with jumping on the island every once in a while. Of course you could do it with three DDs before, but it was challenging.

In addition to the added dmge on the group -which was not the real problem btw- the stone atronachs on Galchobar had an internal x sec timer that after expiring simply wipes the entire group with a 1 shot of something like 40K on a healer.

I have explained tactics and guided countless random group finder pugs on vet successfully up to this exact point where their low dps and lack of human skills (not to mention unability to communicate in english) simply made it impossible for them to dmge the shalks and stone atronachs up to the point where the shalks overrun or stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group.

This change will simply allow me to drag their almost dead weight passed this boss. Whether that's a good or bad thing I will leave up to anyone for deciding. And believe still they will get themselves killed by not jumping on lava or back in time and still the shalks will kill them...

Seri · March 2019

code65536 wrote: »

Getting caught during the blue phase is a guaranteed death that cannot be saved with healing so the snare change just means if I'm PUGing I can handle blue phase solo without relying on the puglets to grab the pinion to save me. (Plus, it's not a very intuitive mechanic--I've spent a lot of keystrokes trying to explain how it works.)

[...]

So why were these changes made? Well, whenever I queue for a random vet and get Bloodroot and see the blue portal at the entrance, it's always been the bull boss. Same thing with vWGT. If I get queued into a half-completed instance, I already know exactly where that blue portal is going to take me.

I agree with you that the pinion may not be well explained, but the notes mention in several places about trying to be more informative, eg:

Added a center screen message when a player is targeted by the Fire Shalk's Lava Ball.
Added a flashing telegraph to the player being chased by the Fire Shalk's Lava Ball.

I mean, I've also joined groups at exactly the same point in WGT, but have usually progressed past it once the mechanic has been explained out - usually with comments like 'oh, that was actually pretty cool' or 'that was easier than I expected'. IMO they're pretty cool mechanics, and pretty easy once the group knows them, so I'd rather see work to make it more intuitive - especially for the bosses that do feature more unique behaviours (planar, flesh sculptor in ICP, plague doctor guy in scalecaller, the 3x summoners / skeleton summon thingy in falkreath, and so on).

code65536 · March 2019

Masel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I don't like these nerfs, and I think that the older DLC dungeons have already been indirectly nerfed by way of power creep (that does not come from CP ).

But the hyperbolic nature of some of these comments is ridiculous. The Hard Modes are untouched. While these changes don't encourage healers, they don't discourage them either.

I think they do, because more mechanics mean more incoming damage, increasing the positive a healer can have in a group. On Galchobhar for example, these atros dealt a pretty high amount of damage (which a healer can counter), not that they're gone its pretty much a stack and burn fight with jumping on the island every once in a while. Of course you could do it with three DDs before, but it was challenging.

The damage from those unkilled atros ramp up pretty quickly and while a healer will buy you some time, I don't think it's as much time as you think it is. The stone atros added a DPS check mechanic. I joined an in-progress Group Finder vBRF once, and the tail end of the conversation that I caught was the healer saying that they can't really help with DPSing down those stone atronachs. For groups with low DPS, perhaps they would've preferred a third DD instead of a healer who couldn't help them pass that DPS check?

In any case, for vBRF, if the tank isn't very experienced, a healer is definitely a plus for the final boss.

Wolfahm · March 2019

@code65536

Decreased Velidreth's overall damage in Veteran mode.
Decreased the effectiveness of all negative effects related to the Diseased Spores.
Decreased the damage done by Shadow Spine in Normal and Veteran modes.
Velidreth's Shadow Spine no longer applies the Impaled debuff in Veteran mode.
Decreased the damage done by Deadly Spikes in the catacombs.
Deadly Spikes no longer applies Enfeebling Poison or drains Stamina resources in Veteran mode.

Are ALL of these still on for HM? Does not sound like it?

VaranisArano · March 2019

Personally, I suspect this is ZOS' response to the recurring "Please remove DLC dungeons from the Daily Random Dungeon pool" threads.

If you are the type of player who hates getting a DLC dungeon with PUGs because it takes forever, or you complain that being an ESO+ subscriber means you've got harder dungeons in your random pool regardless of whether you want to own the dungeon DLC...these changes are to your benefit.

Tasear · March 2019

code65536 wrote: »

I don't like these nerfs, and I think that the older DLC dungeons have already been indirectly nerfed by way of power creep (that does not come from CP ).

But the hyperbolic nature of some of these comments is ridiculous. The Hard Modes are untouched. While these changes don't encourage healers, they don't discourage them either.

Masel wrote: »

How are players supposed to learn for harder content if not in these dungeons?

This increases the difficulty gap between vet dungeons and higher difficulty content like DLC HMs and vet trials. But this decreases the difficulty gap between normal dungeons and vet dungeons. So which gap is the harder gap to cross, for people who are working their way up the difficulty ladder? I guess ZOS thought that it was the latter.

Reducing ambient damage, removing defile...no sir it does discourage them.

Donnasnowheart_ESO · March 2019

I personally don't see the big deal eso has just about the worst set up for healers when it comes to doing the typical mmo set up of healing, they're pretty much glorified buff bots and really only heal when theirs some sort of heavy incoming sustain damage or the group is inexperienced and low cp. A healthy portion of the combat system needs an overhaul if they ever plan to make healing actually important at all levels of pve content. Hard part is figuring out how to achieve that without upsetting a whole lot of people good luck with that Zos.

Wolfahm · March 2019

^^ good luck dealing with that house of cards....

predareaper · March 2019

I'm honestly salty about this, if you don't put in the effort to achieve a win, why should you expect the content to be nerfed, most of these fights could be done with 20 to 30k dps without many wipes so that isnt the problem, people asking for these nerfs where just borderline incompetent and/or wanted to play "their way" (Aka no mecanics/good looking sets and skills, Ive met a few), please, if you read this and asked for these nerfs, consider finding help on why you are so bad at the game and improve.

lokulin · March 2019

predareaper wrote: »

I'm honestly salty about this, if you don't put in the effort to achieve a win, why should you expect the content to be nerfed, most of these fights could be done with 20 to 30k dps without many wipes so that isnt the problem, people asking for these nerfs where just borderline incompetent and/or wanted to play "their way" (Aka no mecanics/good looking sets and skills, Ive met a few), please, if you read this and asked for these nerfs, consider finding help on why you are so bad at the game and improve.

If you have already done these dungeons on vet + HM + speed run + no death, why do you care?

code65536 · March 2019

Wolfahm wrote: »

@code65536

Decreased Velidreth's overall damage in Veteran mode.
Decreased the effectiveness of all negative effects related to the Diseased Spores.
Decreased the damage done by Shadow Spine in Normal and Veteran modes.
Velidreth's Shadow Spine no longer applies the Impaled debuff in Veteran mode.
Decreased the damage done by Deadly Spikes in the catacombs.
Deadly Spikes no longer applies Enfeebling Poison or drains Stamina resources in Veteran mode.

Are ALL of these still on for HM? Does not sound like it?

I'm pretty sure the Shadow Spine change does not affect HM, since that is a guaranteed 1-shot in HM. It's not a 1-shot on vet (just does a ton of damage and will 1-shot if you're not at full health).

Not sure about the rest.

I know the spores had different effect IDs in normal and vet. Not sure about HM.

As for the spikes in the catacombs... I think that is a nerf, but a pretty inconsequential one--the spikes are very easy to avoid and the snare was really the biggest penalty for hitting the spike--eliminating the additional stam drain is a nerf, but not one that would significantly impact players. What this change helps with, though, is making that use-no-atro-light achievement less cancerous.

As for damage from Velidreth herself... again, I'm not sure this matters, since I'm pretty sure the biggest killer for the non-tanks in HM is from Mephala's statue and not the boss, and the biggest threat to the tank is expose morsel which was explicitly called out as not having been changed.

But, fine, I'll concede that there's probably been a nerf here. But the changes seem pretty mild compared to the huge nerfs elsewhere.

Again, I'm not happy with these nerfs. But I don't think the end-of-the-world reactions in this thread are warranted either.

Suddwrath · March 2019

The skill level for dungeons continue to drop. Again, most changes were not even mentioned by the community. @ZOS_Finn why the sudden nerf for these dungeons out of the blue?

mdylan2013 · March 2019

Glad to see it. As they release more and more DLC dungeons they should nerf the older ones.

Onigar · March 2019

Over the fast few years basically just about everything activity content related in the game has had some nerfing applied and with the result the game is overall easier to play. This I think is a shame as it was all a good challenging experience.

My view is this is a financial/business decision that ZOS made for the players who may not be so capable happy to keep playing the game as well as attracting new players through word of mouth (text these days).

For those of you who play multiple games I applaud you as with life I only really have time for this game.

There is still hard content in ESO so its not all gone but I don't expect the nerf team has finished their work yet

Peekachu99 · March 2019

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

To make them possible for PvPers because they complain that they are too hard.

It’s funny that you should say this since all of my best pug runs (hundreds upon hundreds by now) have been with PvPers, who regularly show better attitudes, better sustain, better reaction times, greater understanding of their gear and role than the average clueless twit just looking to do Vet Cradle achievements all in one go cause the skin is “cool”. I’m not talking about the vocal minority of PvPers we see here and on Reddit (Zerg surfers), but the silent majority who play and know their class inside and out in all areas of the game.

code65536 · March 2019

Tasear wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I don't like these nerfs, and I think that the older DLC dungeons have already been indirectly nerfed by way of power creep (that does not come from CP ).

But the hyperbolic nature of some of these comments is ridiculous. The Hard Modes are untouched. While these changes don't encourage healers, they don't discourage them either.

Masel wrote: »

How are players supposed to learn for harder content if not in these dungeons?

This increases the difficulty gap between vet dungeons and higher difficulty content like DLC HMs and vet trials. But this decreases the difficulty gap between normal dungeons and vet dungeons. So which gap is the harder gap to cross, for people who are working their way up the difficulty ladder? I guess ZOS thought that it was the latter.

Reducing ambient damage, removing defile...no sir it does discourage them.

We... already run with 3 DDs for that fight. And I had no idea there was even a defile until I saw that patch note.

predareaper · March 2019

lokulin wrote: »

predareaper wrote: »

I'm honestly salty about this, if you don't put in the effort to achieve a win, why should you expect the content to be nerfed, most of these fights could be done with 20 to 30k dps without many wipes so that isnt the problem, people asking for these nerfs where just borderline incompetent and/or wanted to play "their way" (Aka no mecanics/good looking sets and skills, Ive met a few), please, if you read this and asked for these nerfs, consider finding help on why you are so bad at the game and improve.

If you have already done these dungeons on vet + HM + speed run + no death, why do you care?

Because it sets the floor for new content and what is expected from players, how are you going to improve if everything stays easy and when you are faced with a challenge instead of getting better you wait for it to get nerfed, new players Will not improve if the content doesnt force them to.

lokulin · March 2019

predareaper wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

predareaper wrote: »

I'm honestly salty about this, if you don't put in the effort to achieve a win, why should you expect the content to be nerfed, most of these fights could be done with 20 to 30k dps without many wipes so that isnt the problem, people asking for these nerfs where just borderline incompetent and/or wanted to play "their way" (Aka no mecanics/good looking sets and skills, Ive met a few), please, if you read this and asked for these nerfs, consider finding help on why you are so bad at the game and improve.

If you have already done these dungeons on vet + HM + speed run + no death, why do you care?

Because it sets the floor for new content and what is expected from players, how are you going to improve if everything stays easy and when you are faced with a challenge instead of getting better you wait for it to get nerfed, new players Will not improve if the content doesnt force them to.

New and old players won't do or buy content if they hit a skill ceiling and can't progress. Why would someone buy the new DLC if they can't even finish the old ones.

JaZ2091 · March 2019

Not surprised. They'll probably nerf it to the ground so that people who struggle with overland mobs will be able to do complete it.

IzzyStardust · March 2019

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

To make them possible for PvPers because they complain that they are too hard.

Whilst simultaneously crying for pve heals & skills nerfs.

Tasear · March 2019

code65536 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I don't like these nerfs, and I think that the older DLC dungeons have already been indirectly nerfed by way of power creep (that does not come from CP ).

But the hyperbolic nature of some of these comments is ridiculous. The Hard Modes are untouched. While these changes don't encourage healers, they don't discourage them either.

Masel wrote: »

How are players supposed to learn for harder content if not in these dungeons?

This increases the difficulty gap between vet dungeons and higher difficulty content like DLC HMs and vet trials. But this decreases the difficulty gap between normal dungeons and vet dungeons. So which gap is the harder gap to cross, for people who are working their way up the difficulty ladder? I guess ZOS thought that it was the latter.

Reducing ambient damage, removing defile...no sir it does discourage them.

We... already run with 3 DDs for that fight. And I had no idea there was even a defile until I saw that patch note.

Ambient damage is what engages healers. I am not saying 3 dds don't exist already buy pushing more is what I don't like at all.

eliisra · March 2019

Because it's normal procedure to nerf older content when new comes out. It's done in pretty much all mmos. They decrease difficulty to up the completion rates and sell DLCs.

It gives less organized casual groups a chance to complete content. So for them DLC content that's actually old, becomes like new stuff(because couldn't do it before). It allows more average groups to farm the dungeon more efficiently. While better groups are suppose to be busy with harder new content.

As a gaming developer you have to be realistic about things, like how a big part of the playerbase actually can't pass unless you "dumb down". They wont magically change their playstyle, put in effort and "git gud" etc, just because you feel they should.

predareaper · March 2019

lokulin wrote: »

predareaper wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

predareaper wrote: »

I'm honestly salty about this, if you don't put in the effort to achieve a win, why should you expect the content to be nerfed, most of these fights could be done with 20 to 30k dps without many wipes so that isnt the problem, people asking for these nerfs where just borderline incompetent and/or wanted to play "their way" (Aka no mecanics/good looking sets and skills, Ive met a few), please, if you read this and asked for these nerfs, consider finding help on why you are so bad at the game and improve.

If you have already done these dungeons on vet + HM + speed run + no death, why do you care?

Because it sets the floor for new content and what is expected from players, how are you going to improve if everything stays easy and when you are faced with a challenge instead of getting better you wait for it to get nerfed, new players Will not improve if the content doesnt force them to.

New and old players won't do or buy content if they hit a skill ceiling and can't progress. Why would someone buy the new DLC if they can't even finish the old ones.

Oh no, belive me they will, why do you think they are nerfing 2 year old dungeons made with dps/mecanics in mind from that time? Also eso+ is a thing , again, if you want to do hard content, work for it , if youre absolutely sure that a 2 year old dungeon is your skill ceiling, then you arent even trying to play the game, like i said in my original post

Reverb · March 2019

I suspect the nerfs are to address the widespread reluctance to use the groupfinder. The Perceived difficulty of dlc dungeons is cited as the primary reason people avoid the groupfinder. Many many players find them too difficult, and those of us who enjoy the challenge don’t enjoy being stuck in there for hours with groupmembers who are poorly geared and prepared for their role and struggle to listen to mechanics.

With wrathstone there are now 12 dlc dungeons. Odds are pretty high that a random queue will drop you in one, and those odds will keep going up with additional releases. This will further decrease the number of players willing to use the random queue unless they address the perceived difficulty.

They can’t very well have annual or bi-annual events to reward random dungeons if half of their player base isn’t willing to participate.

Rungar · March 2019

this is just a failure of the model. The vet dlc dungeons are inaccessible because they are designed for players who have the following:

voice coms
guild backup to learn encounters
light weaving

many pugs wont have any of this and thus failure and avoidance will be the result in many cases.

its not so much a skill thing as an organization thing.

Guilds in this game are weak because of the traders
many players dont like or use light weaving
pc players need 3rd party voice coms

Stop telling people to L2P and figure out why they dont want to.

predareaper · March 2019

Rungar wrote: »

this is just a failure of the model. The vet dlc dungeons are inaccessible because they are designed for players who have the following:

voice coms
guild backup to learn encounters
light weaving

many pugs wont have any of this and thus failure and avoidance will be the result in many cases.

its not so much a skill thing as an organization thing.

Guilds in this game are weak because of the traders
many players dont like or use light weaving
pc players need 3rd party voice coms

Stop telling people to L2P and figure out why they dont want to.

Light weaving is endorsed by the game if youre not doing it youre failing basic game mecanics, organization is skill, díscord is free to use(no real need to speak if youre being explained, text can do) and console has voice chat, again, failure to search to improve ones self is not the reason to nerf content