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Replace Orc Health with Magicka Recovery
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BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »I mean, why should High Elves have a monopoly on the worst utility passive in the game?
When you're conducting the post-mortem on Wrathstone, trying to explain the sudden wave of unsubs, this is why: absolutely awful decisions that should've never made it to PTS in the first place look like they're actually going to make it to live servers. If 4.3.4 is the end, then Wrathstone racial changes are an abject failure that cast the company's intentions in the worst possible light.
Orc - Orc is stupidly OP, with 2k Max Stam, 258 WD, 1k Health, and several universally useful utility passives. Completely overshadows Redguard.
Altmer - Altmer's Magicka generalist identity is destroyed by niche passives. All other mag races pull nearly identical DPS, but all of them offer superior universal utility. Off-stat regen is trash, and does not fairly compensate for what was taken away. "Increased chance to apply status effects" or a dozen other clearly superior alternatives have been suggested. The only explanation for refusing to offer better utility is an actual dev intent to drive players away from Altmer characters, a change that would give many of them actual utility with no statistical change in DPS.
Argonian - These guys got hit way too hard with the nerf hammer. Now they're not really good for anything. I guess that's one way of ending the Murkmire era, but damn though. Kinda brutal.
Bosmer - Penetration after dodge roll is awkward and pointless. Penetration based on range is just one of 1000 obvious alternatives that would actually suit the archer playstyle better. The stealth bonus nerf is senseless and should be reverted.
Frankly, these changes should not go live. If there's anything that can be done internally to remedy this cluster$#%^ before launch it is in the company's best interests to do it. I've already unsubbed and I'm sure many, many more will follow when they find out that >3 characters are affected and you want to charge people money if they want to fix >3 characters you've messed up. There's no surprise here that video games have to make updates and change things. Cool. But it is an unethical business practice to change things in such a way that intentionally dissatisfies customers so that you can profit on selling them fixes. It is absolutely transparent that this is happening here. All mag DPS parse nearly identical, yet you gimped the most popular Magicka DD race with no utility in PvE content to sell race change tokens. And there's a similar situation for Argonian tanks and Redguard DPS. You didn't just create equal alternatives - you created superior alternatives and nerfed the old meta. Players are smart enough to see that and are not going to keep paying your bills. I don't blame anyone in particular because I have no idea what internal factors cause companies to do stupid things like this, but somebody needs to take note and fix it. Many existing characters are being disadvantaged in this update in ways that are easily avoidable if ZOS would only put a little effort into ensuring that our concerns are given a serious look before going live.
honestly enough of this. im tired of altmer players complaining all day because "'muh altmer isnt the best race in the game"
Pre-nerf altmer was the most busted sh**. It was overwhelmingly the best mag race. Altmers still parse the best, they just have a utility passive that helps alot for pvp. Enough. all the races are pretty balanced, some are definitely better than others, but we can't just have every single race be exactly the same and do everything the same, whats the purpose of races then?
Even if they removed racial passives and only left each races flavor default passives people will still find a reason to say one race is better
How does that make any sense?
About as much sense as you changing rules for comparing altmer and orsimer passives.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »I mean, why should High Elves have a monopoly on the worst utility passive in the game?
When you're conducting the post-mortem on Wrathstone, trying to explain the sudden wave of unsubs, this is why: absolutely awful decisions that should've never made it to PTS in the first place look like they're actually going to make it to live servers. If 4.3.4 is the end, then Wrathstone racial changes are an abject failure that cast the company's intentions in the worst possible light.
Orc - Orc is stupidly OP, with 2k Max Stam, 258 WD, 1k Health, and several universally useful utility passives. Completely overshadows Redguard.
Altmer - Altmer's Magicka generalist identity is destroyed by niche passives. All other mag races pull nearly identical DPS, but all of them offer superior universal utility. Off-stat regen is trash, and does not fairly compensate for what was taken away. "Increased chance to apply status effects" or a dozen other clearly superior alternatives have been suggested. The only explanation for refusing to offer better utility is an actual dev intent to drive players away from Altmer characters, a change that would give many of them actual utility with no statistical change in DPS.
Argonian - These guys got hit way too hard with the nerf hammer. Now they're not really good for anything. I guess that's one way of ending the Murkmire era, but damn though. Kinda brutal.
Bosmer - Penetration after dodge roll is awkward and pointless. Penetration based on range is just one of 1000 obvious alternatives that would actually suit the archer playstyle better. The stealth bonus nerf is senseless and should be reverted.
Frankly, these changes should not go live. If there's anything that can be done internally to remedy this cluster$#%^ before launch it is in the company's best interests to do it. I've already unsubbed and I'm sure many, many more will follow when they find out that >3 characters are affected and you want to charge people money if they want to fix >3 characters you've messed up. There's no surprise here that video games have to make updates and change things. Cool. But it is an unethical business practice to change things in such a way that intentionally dissatisfies customers so that you can profit on selling them fixes. It is absolutely transparent that this is happening here. All mag DPS parse nearly identical, yet you gimped the most popular Magicka DD race with no utility in PvE content to sell race change tokens. And there's a similar situation for Argonian tanks and Redguard DPS. You didn't just create equal alternatives - you created superior alternatives and nerfed the old meta. Players are smart enough to see that and are not going to keep paying your bills. I don't blame anyone in particular because I have no idea what internal factors cause companies to do stupid things like this, but somebody needs to take note and fix it. Many existing characters are being disadvantaged in this update in ways that are easily avoidable if ZOS would only put a little effort into ensuring that our concerns are given a serious look before going live.
honestly enough of this. im tired of altmer players complaining all day because "'muh altmer isnt the best race in the game"
Pre-nerf altmer was the most busted sh**. It was overwhelmingly the best mag race. Altmers still parse the best, they just have a utility passive that helps alot for pvp. Enough. all the races are pretty balanced, some are definitely better than others, but we can't just have every single race be exactly the same and do everything the same, whats the purpose of races then?
Even if they removed racial passives and only left each races flavor default passives people will still find a reason to say one race is better
How does that make any sense?
About as much sense as you changing rules for comparing altmer and orsimer passives.
I didn't change any rules. I'm quoting you here:I think just about any player on an orc would gladly trade high elves the sprint and health for spell recharge as is.
Which Orc player wouldn't trade fluff passives for stamina regen? Yes, stamina regen is useful on a STAMINA race. The reason it isn't useful on an Altmer is because Altmer is a MAGICKA race. The two are not directly comparable at all. It would be like asking if Altmer players would trade their 5% damage mitigation while channeling for 215 magicka regen.
If you meant magicka regen, then that's a different story. But you need to be clear. And no orc would exchange sprint cost reduction and health regen for magicka regen.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 21, 2019 8:46PM0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »I mean, why should High Elves have a monopoly on the worst utility passive in the game?
When you're conducting the post-mortem on Wrathstone, trying to explain the sudden wave of unsubs, this is why: absolutely awful decisions that should've never made it to PTS in the first place look like they're actually going to make it to live servers. If 4.3.4 is the end, then Wrathstone racial changes are an abject failure that cast the company's intentions in the worst possible light.
Orc - Orc is stupidly OP, with 2k Max Stam, 258 WD, 1k Health, and several universally useful utility passives. Completely overshadows Redguard.
Altmer - Altmer's Magicka generalist identity is destroyed by niche passives. All other mag races pull nearly identical DPS, but all of them offer superior universal utility. Off-stat regen is trash, and does not fairly compensate for what was taken away. "Increased chance to apply status effects" or a dozen other clearly superior alternatives have been suggested. The only explanation for refusing to offer better utility is an actual dev intent to drive players away from Altmer characters, a change that would give many of them actual utility with no statistical change in DPS.
Argonian - These guys got hit way too hard with the nerf hammer. Now they're not really good for anything. I guess that's one way of ending the Murkmire era, but damn though. Kinda brutal.
Bosmer - Penetration after dodge roll is awkward and pointless. Penetration based on range is just one of 1000 obvious alternatives that would actually suit the archer playstyle better. The stealth bonus nerf is senseless and should be reverted.
Frankly, these changes should not go live. If there's anything that can be done internally to remedy this cluster$#%^ before launch it is in the company's best interests to do it. I've already unsubbed and I'm sure many, many more will follow when they find out that >3 characters are affected and you want to charge people money if they want to fix >3 characters you've messed up. There's no surprise here that video games have to make updates and change things. Cool. But it is an unethical business practice to change things in such a way that intentionally dissatisfies customers so that you can profit on selling them fixes. It is absolutely transparent that this is happening here. All mag DPS parse nearly identical, yet you gimped the most popular Magicka DD race with no utility in PvE content to sell race change tokens. And there's a similar situation for Argonian tanks and Redguard DPS. You didn't just create equal alternatives - you created superior alternatives and nerfed the old meta. Players are smart enough to see that and are not going to keep paying your bills. I don't blame anyone in particular because I have no idea what internal factors cause companies to do stupid things like this, but somebody needs to take note and fix it. Many existing characters are being disadvantaged in this update in ways that are easily avoidable if ZOS would only put a little effort into ensuring that our concerns are given a serious look before going live.
honestly enough of this. im tired of altmer players complaining all day because "'muh altmer isnt the best race in the game"
Pre-nerf altmer was the most busted sh**. It was overwhelmingly the best mag race. Altmers still parse the best, they just have a utility passive that helps alot for pvp. Enough. all the races are pretty balanced, some are definitely better than others, but we can't just have every single race be exactly the same and do everything the same, whats the purpose of races then?
Even if they removed racial passives and only left each races flavor default passives people will still find a reason to say one race is better
How does that make any sense?
About as much sense as you changing rules for comparing altmer and orsimer passives.
I didn't change any rules. I'm quoting you here:I think just about any player on an orc would gladly trade high elves the sprint and health for spell recharge as is.
Which Orc player wouldn't trade fluff passives for stamina regen? Yes, stamina regen is useful on a STAMINA race. The reason it isn't useful on an Altmer is because Altmer is a MAGICKA race.
If you meant magicka regen, then that's a different story. But you need to be clear. And no orc would exchange sprint cost reduction and health regen for magicka regen.
Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.
Altmers spell recharge as is aka means orc would get mag regen. And you didn’t change any rules?
Of course they would, but you're comparing the wrong passives.
The core passives are:
+1000 max health
+300 health regen
vs.
+215 stamina regen
The "fluff" passives are:
+12% sprint cost reduction
+10% movement speed
vs.
+5% damage reduction while channeling
By original set up comparing all passives and I successfully did that and here you want specific comparison to 2 separate parts of the same passive and I used 2 entirely different orc passives In The original comparisonEdited by BattleAxe on February 21, 2019 8:54PM0 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Why even nerf Breton and buff Altmer when both are on par and this is backed up by several parses from different testers?
Both are on par in raid buff settings but Breton beats Altmer in more settings outside of that. My proposal was made with the mindset of balancing out the races in a way that is both as Lore Friendly as humanly possible while maintaining trade offs between the races. In 4.3.0 Khajiit and Breton were on par, if not out parsing, Altmer by small amounts but I had nerfed Altmer's Spell Damage buff with only taking into account Khajiit's DPS advantage and not taking into consideration Breton's (which I technincally made worse because I increased Breton's Magic regen). A nerf to Breton would be needed in order to offset the changes I made to Altmer while still keeping it the best at Magic sustain, which was why I had originally increased their Magic Regen to be better than Khajiit's suggested Magic Regen. It's all very intricate in order to achieve balance. You have to think in 20 different directions at once in order to really get it.Argonian forever0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭And no orc would exchange for mag regen first example dk orc and their helping hands passive0
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Why even nerf Breton and buff Altmer when both are on par and this is backed up by several parses from different testers?
Both are on par in raid buff settings but Breton beats Altmer in more settings outside of that. My proposal was made with the mindset of balancing out the races in a way that is both as Lore Friendly as humanly possible while maintaining trade offs between the races. In 4.3.0 Khajiit and Breton were on par, if not out parsing, Altmer by small amounts but I had nerfed Altmer's Spell Damage buff with only taking into account Khajiit's DPS advantage and not taking into consideration Breton's (which I technincally made worse because I increased Breton's Magic regen). A nerf to Breton would be needed in order to offset the changes I made to Altmer while still keeping it the best at Magic sustain, which was why I had originally increased their Magic Regen to be better than Khajiit's suggested Magic Regen. It's all very intricate in order to achieve balance. You have to think in 20 different directions at once in order to really get it.
The scenarios where Bretons are better than Altmer right now are only virtual. They do not exist yet. Breton outperforming Altmer is an assumption backed by no facts at the moment.
Uhm and I totally agree with you on your desired outcome with all those changes but... as I already said... Magicka races are balanced very well right now. Khajiit might lack a bit but that's negligible. You made so many suggestions when in fact all of them are not necessary because we already have maybe the "best" achievable balance for Magicka races.Edited by Seraphayel on February 21, 2019 8:59PMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Why even nerf Breton and buff Altmer when both are on par and this is backed up by several parses from different testers?
Both are on par in raid buff settings but Breton beats Altmer in more settings outside of that. My proposal was made with the mindset of balancing out the races in a way that is both as Lore Friendly as humanly possible while maintaining trade offs between the races. In 4.3.0 Khajiit and Breton were on par, if not out parsing, Altmer by small amounts but I had nerfed Altmer's Spell Damage buff with only taking into account Khajiit's DPS advantage and not taking into consideration Breton's (which I technincally made worse because I increased Breton's Magic regen). A nerf to Breton would be needed in order to offset the changes I made to Altmer while still keeping it the best at Magic sustain, which was why I had originally increased their Magic Regen to be better than Khajiit's suggested Magic Regen. It's all very intricate in order to achieve balance. You have to think in 20 different directions at once in order to really get it.
I get wut u wanna do here but ZoS already stated they don’t want a race who is considered a damage race to have sustain and vice versa0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »I mean, why should High Elves have a monopoly on the worst utility passive in the game?
When you're conducting the post-mortem on Wrathstone, trying to explain the sudden wave of unsubs, this is why: absolutely awful decisions that should've never made it to PTS in the first place look like they're actually going to make it to live servers. If 4.3.4 is the end, then Wrathstone racial changes are an abject failure that cast the company's intentions in the worst possible light.
Orc - Orc is stupidly OP, with 2k Max Stam, 258 WD, 1k Health, and several universally useful utility passives. Completely overshadows Redguard.
Altmer - Altmer's Magicka generalist identity is destroyed by niche passives. All other mag races pull nearly identical DPS, but all of them offer superior universal utility. Off-stat regen is trash, and does not fairly compensate for what was taken away. "Increased chance to apply status effects" or a dozen other clearly superior alternatives have been suggested. The only explanation for refusing to offer better utility is an actual dev intent to drive players away from Altmer characters, a change that would give many of them actual utility with no statistical change in DPS.
Argonian - These guys got hit way too hard with the nerf hammer. Now they're not really good for anything. I guess that's one way of ending the Murkmire era, but damn though. Kinda brutal.
Bosmer - Penetration after dodge roll is awkward and pointless. Penetration based on range is just one of 1000 obvious alternatives that would actually suit the archer playstyle better. The stealth bonus nerf is senseless and should be reverted.
Frankly, these changes should not go live. If there's anything that can be done internally to remedy this cluster$#%^ before launch it is in the company's best interests to do it. I've already unsubbed and I'm sure many, many more will follow when they find out that >3 characters are affected and you want to charge people money if they want to fix >3 characters you've messed up. There's no surprise here that video games have to make updates and change things. Cool. But it is an unethical business practice to change things in such a way that intentionally dissatisfies customers so that you can profit on selling them fixes. It is absolutely transparent that this is happening here. All mag DPS parse nearly identical, yet you gimped the most popular Magicka DD race with no utility in PvE content to sell race change tokens. And there's a similar situation for Argonian tanks and Redguard DPS. You didn't just create equal alternatives - you created superior alternatives and nerfed the old meta. Players are smart enough to see that and are not going to keep paying your bills. I don't blame anyone in particular because I have no idea what internal factors cause companies to do stupid things like this, but somebody needs to take note and fix it. Many existing characters are being disadvantaged in this update in ways that are easily avoidable if ZOS would only put a little effort into ensuring that our concerns are given a serious look before going live.
honestly enough of this. im tired of altmer players complaining all day because "'muh altmer isnt the best race in the game"
Pre-nerf altmer was the most busted sh**. It was overwhelmingly the best mag race. Altmers still parse the best, they just have a utility passive that helps alot for pvp. Enough. all the races are pretty balanced, some are definitely better than others, but we can't just have every single race be exactly the same and do everything the same, whats the purpose of races then?
Even if they removed racial passives and only left each races flavor default passives people will still find a reason to say one race is better
How does that make any sense?
About as much sense as you changing rules for comparing altmer and orsimer passives.
I didn't change any rules. I'm quoting you here:I think just about any player on an orc would gladly trade high elves the sprint and health for spell recharge as is.
Which Orc player wouldn't trade fluff passives for stamina regen? Yes, stamina regen is useful on a STAMINA race. The reason it isn't useful on an Altmer is because Altmer is a MAGICKA race.
If you meant magicka regen, then that's a different story. But you need to be clear. And no orc would exchange sprint cost reduction and health regen for magicka regen.
Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.
Altmers spell recharge as is aka means orc would get mag regen. And you didn’t change any rules?
Of course they would, but you're comparing the wrong passives.
The core passives are:
+1000 max health
+300 health regen
vs.
+215 stamina regen
The "fluff" passives are:
+12% sprint cost reduction
+10% movement speed
vs.
+5% damage reduction while channeling
By original set up comparing all passives and I successfully did that and here you want specific comparison to 2 separate parts of the same passive and I used 2 entirely different orc passives In The original comparison
I assumed you were talking about 215 stamina regen because that's what the discussion has been about this entire time, and because the alternative (215 magicka recovery) doesn't make any sense.
Now that I know your argument is "any orc would exchange 12% sprint cost reduction and 300 health regen for 215 magicka regen", my question to you is why do you think that? How would 215 magicka regen be more useful to an orc than 12% sprint cost reduction and 300 health regen? I'd love to hear how you get out of this nonsensical argument.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 21, 2019 9:08PM0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »I mean, why should High Elves have a monopoly on the worst utility passive in the game?
When you're conducting the post-mortem on Wrathstone, trying to explain the sudden wave of unsubs, this is why: absolutely awful decisions that should've never made it to PTS in the first place look like they're actually going to make it to live servers. If 4.3.4 is the end, then Wrathstone racial changes are an abject failure that cast the company's intentions in the worst possible light.
Orc - Orc is stupidly OP, with 2k Max Stam, 258 WD, 1k Health, and several universally useful utility passives. Completely overshadows Redguard.
Altmer - Altmer's Magicka generalist identity is destroyed by niche passives. All other mag races pull nearly identical DPS, but all of them offer superior universal utility. Off-stat regen is trash, and does not fairly compensate for what was taken away. "Increased chance to apply status effects" or a dozen other clearly superior alternatives have been suggested. The only explanation for refusing to offer better utility is an actual dev intent to drive players away from Altmer characters, a change that would give many of them actual utility with no statistical change in DPS.
Argonian - These guys got hit way too hard with the nerf hammer. Now they're not really good for anything. I guess that's one way of ending the Murkmire era, but damn though. Kinda brutal.
Bosmer - Penetration after dodge roll is awkward and pointless. Penetration based on range is just one of 1000 obvious alternatives that would actually suit the archer playstyle better. The stealth bonus nerf is senseless and should be reverted.
Frankly, these changes should not go live. If there's anything that can be done internally to remedy this cluster$#%^ before launch it is in the company's best interests to do it. I've already unsubbed and I'm sure many, many more will follow when they find out that >3 characters are affected and you want to charge people money if they want to fix >3 characters you've messed up. There's no surprise here that video games have to make updates and change things. Cool. But it is an unethical business practice to change things in such a way that intentionally dissatisfies customers so that you can profit on selling them fixes. It is absolutely transparent that this is happening here. All mag DPS parse nearly identical, yet you gimped the most popular Magicka DD race with no utility in PvE content to sell race change tokens. And there's a similar situation for Argonian tanks and Redguard DPS. You didn't just create equal alternatives - you created superior alternatives and nerfed the old meta. Players are smart enough to see that and are not going to keep paying your bills. I don't blame anyone in particular because I have no idea what internal factors cause companies to do stupid things like this, but somebody needs to take note and fix it. Many existing characters are being disadvantaged in this update in ways that are easily avoidable if ZOS would only put a little effort into ensuring that our concerns are given a serious look before going live.
honestly enough of this. im tired of altmer players complaining all day because "'muh altmer isnt the best race in the game"
Pre-nerf altmer was the most busted sh**. It was overwhelmingly the best mag race. Altmers still parse the best, they just have a utility passive that helps alot for pvp. Enough. all the races are pretty balanced, some are definitely better than others, but we can't just have every single race be exactly the same and do everything the same, whats the purpose of races then?
Even if they removed racial passives and only left each races flavor default passives people will still find a reason to say one race is better
How does that make any sense?
About as much sense as you changing rules for comparing altmer and orsimer passives.
I didn't change any rules. I'm quoting you here:I think just about any player on an orc would gladly trade high elves the sprint and health for spell recharge as is.
Which Orc player wouldn't trade fluff passives for stamina regen? Yes, stamina regen is useful on a STAMINA race. The reason it isn't useful on an Altmer is because Altmer is a MAGICKA race.
If you meant magicka regen, then that's a different story. But you need to be clear. And no orc would exchange sprint cost reduction and health regen for magicka regen.
Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.
Altmers spell recharge as is aka means orc would get mag regen. And you didn’t change any rules?
Of course they would, but you're comparing the wrong passives.
The core passives are:
+1000 max health
+300 health regen
vs.
+215 stamina regen
The "fluff" passives are:
+12% sprint cost reduction
+10% movement speed
vs.
+5% damage reduction while channeling
By original set up comparing all passives and I successfully did that and here you want specific comparison to 2 separate parts of the same passive and I used 2 entirely different orc passives In The original comparison
I assumed you were talking about 215 stamina regen because that's what the discussion has been about this entire time.
Now that I know your argument is "any orc would exchange 12% sprint cost reduction and 300 health regen for 215 magicka regen", my question to you is why do you think that? How would 215 magicka regen be more useful to an orc than 12% sprint cost reduction and 300 health regen?
First example as I stated earlier above was an orc dk with helping hands would make most use of that passive and it can be argued other classes will get use from the mag return but that is a lengthy discussion also orcs would be trading health health regen and the speed increase and cost reduction taking all of spell recharge granting them 5% dmg mitigation on channels and cast time skills which considering some of the main stam skills are either channels or cast times would be up nearly 100% of the time.
I’m not looking for a war I’m just saying if you step back and actually look at the overall game you will find that passive may be better on certain classes but if you build your toon right you can make use of every aspect of the new racial passives. That is what I do as a theory crafter I don’t look at one small portion of something I look at the whole and the end goal0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Why even nerf Breton and buff Altmer when both are on par and this is backed up by several parses from different testers?
Both are on par in raid buff settings but Breton beats Altmer in more settings outside of that. My proposal was made with the mindset of balancing out the races in a way that is both as Lore Friendly as humanly possible while maintaining trade offs between the races. In 4.3.0 Khajiit and Breton were on par, if not out parsing, Altmer by small amounts but I had nerfed Altmer's Spell Damage buff with only taking into account Khajiit's DPS advantage and not taking into consideration Breton's (which I technincally made worse because I increased Breton's Magic regen). A nerf to Breton would be needed in order to offset the changes I made to Altmer while still keeping it the best at Magic sustain, which was why I had originally increased their Magic Regen to be better than Khajiit's suggested Magic Regen. It's all very intricate in order to achieve balance. You have to think in 20 different directions at once in order to really get it.
The scenarios where Bretons are better than Altmer right now are only virtual. They do not exist yet. Breton outperforming Altmer is an assumption backed by no facts at the moment.
Uhm and I totally agree with you on your desired outcome with all those changes but... as I already said... Magicka races are balanced very well right now. Khajiit might lack a bit but that's negligible. You made so many suggestions when in fact all of them are not necessary because we already have maybe the "best" achievable balance for Magicka races.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455092/raid-buffed-dps-comparison-of-each-race-by-class-tests-graphs-interpretation-and-final-score/p1
Breton outparsing Altmer
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455092/raid-buffed-dps-comparison-of-each-race-by-class-tests-graphs-interpretation-and-final-score/p1
Breton outparsing Altmer
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1
Breton outparsing Altmer
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455486/dps-comparison-of-races-on-magplar-on-pts4-3-0-tests-graphs-and-analysis/p1
Breton at nearly the same dps as Altmer with Breton not being at full potential according to OP
Also in Liko´s testing Altmer Breton and Dunmer were about even without changes with only khajit pulling ahead because tests were done for magblade and magplar so the old crit chance gave them an edge in potential
All of these are from 4.3.0 so even with Altmer having the magicka recovery they parsed very closely to other magicka races without being undisputed first place but I guess the Sustain nerf was really necessary to not make Altmer OP
Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »I mean, why should High Elves have a monopoly on the worst utility passive in the game?
When you're conducting the post-mortem on Wrathstone, trying to explain the sudden wave of unsubs, this is why: absolutely awful decisions that should've never made it to PTS in the first place look like they're actually going to make it to live servers. If 4.3.4 is the end, then Wrathstone racial changes are an abject failure that cast the company's intentions in the worst possible light.
Orc - Orc is stupidly OP, with 2k Max Stam, 258 WD, 1k Health, and several universally useful utility passives. Completely overshadows Redguard.
Altmer - Altmer's Magicka generalist identity is destroyed by niche passives. All other mag races pull nearly identical DPS, but all of them offer superior universal utility. Off-stat regen is trash, and does not fairly compensate for what was taken away. "Increased chance to apply status effects" or a dozen other clearly superior alternatives have been suggested. The only explanation for refusing to offer better utility is an actual dev intent to drive players away from Altmer characters, a change that would give many of them actual utility with no statistical change in DPS.
Argonian - These guys got hit way too hard with the nerf hammer. Now they're not really good for anything. I guess that's one way of ending the Murkmire era, but damn though. Kinda brutal.
Bosmer - Penetration after dodge roll is awkward and pointless. Penetration based on range is just one of 1000 obvious alternatives that would actually suit the archer playstyle better. The stealth bonus nerf is senseless and should be reverted.
Frankly, these changes should not go live. If there's anything that can be done internally to remedy this cluster$#%^ before launch it is in the company's best interests to do it. I've already unsubbed and I'm sure many, many more will follow when they find out that >3 characters are affected and you want to charge people money if they want to fix >3 characters you've messed up. There's no surprise here that video games have to make updates and change things. Cool. But it is an unethical business practice to change things in such a way that intentionally dissatisfies customers so that you can profit on selling them fixes. It is absolutely transparent that this is happening here. All mag DPS parse nearly identical, yet you gimped the most popular Magicka DD race with no utility in PvE content to sell race change tokens. And there's a similar situation for Argonian tanks and Redguard DPS. You didn't just create equal alternatives - you created superior alternatives and nerfed the old meta. Players are smart enough to see that and are not going to keep paying your bills. I don't blame anyone in particular because I have no idea what internal factors cause companies to do stupid things like this, but somebody needs to take note and fix it. Many existing characters are being disadvantaged in this update in ways that are easily avoidable if ZOS would only put a little effort into ensuring that our concerns are given a serious look before going live.
honestly enough of this. im tired of altmer players complaining all day because "'muh altmer isnt the best race in the game"
Pre-nerf altmer was the most busted sh**. It was overwhelmingly the best mag race. Altmers still parse the best, they just have a utility passive that helps alot for pvp. Enough. all the races are pretty balanced, some are definitely better than others, but we can't just have every single race be exactly the same and do everything the same, whats the purpose of races then?
Even if they removed racial passives and only left each races flavor default passives people will still find a reason to say one race is better
How does that make any sense?
About as much sense as you changing rules for comparing altmer and orsimer passives.
I didn't change any rules. I'm quoting you here:I think just about any player on an orc would gladly trade high elves the sprint and health for spell recharge as is.
Which Orc player wouldn't trade fluff passives for stamina regen? Yes, stamina regen is useful on a STAMINA race. The reason it isn't useful on an Altmer is because Altmer is a MAGICKA race.
If you meant magicka regen, then that's a different story. But you need to be clear. And no orc would exchange sprint cost reduction and health regen for magicka regen.
Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.
Altmers spell recharge as is aka means orc would get mag regen. And you didn’t change any rules?
Of course they would, but you're comparing the wrong passives.
The core passives are:
+1000 max health
+300 health regen
vs.
+215 stamina regen
The "fluff" passives are:
+12% sprint cost reduction
+10% movement speed
vs.
+5% damage reduction while channeling
By original set up comparing all passives and I successfully did that and here you want specific comparison to 2 separate parts of the same passive and I used 2 entirely different orc passives In The original comparison
Now that I know your argument is "any orc would exchange 12% sprint cost reduction and 300 health regen for 215 magicka regen", my question to you is why do you think that? How would 215 magicka regen be more useful to an orc than 12% sprint cost reduction and 300 health regen? I'd love to hear how you get out of this nonsensical argument.
Talons, Wings, Chains, Streak, Dark Deal, Encase, Ritual, Cloak, Blur, Cripple, Impaling Shards, Shimmering Shield, Lotus. That's just off the top of my head I know I missed some buffs from some classes.1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Why even nerf Breton and buff Altmer when both are on par and this is backed up by several parses from different testers?
Both are on par in raid buff settings but Breton beats Altmer in more settings outside of that. My proposal was made with the mindset of balancing out the races in a way that is both as Lore Friendly as humanly possible while maintaining trade offs between the races. In 4.3.0 Khajiit and Breton were on par, if not out parsing, Altmer by small amounts but I had nerfed Altmer's Spell Damage buff with only taking into account Khajiit's DPS advantage and not taking into consideration Breton's (which I technincally made worse because I increased Breton's Magic regen). A nerf to Breton would be needed in order to offset the changes I made to Altmer while still keeping it the best at Magic sustain, which was why I had originally increased their Magic Regen to be better than Khajiit's suggested Magic Regen. It's all very intricate in order to achieve balance. You have to think in 20 different directions at once in order to really get it.
The scenarios where Bretons are better than Altmer right now are only virtual. They do not exist yet. Breton outperforming Altmer is an assumption backed by no facts at the moment.
Uhm and I totally agree with you on your desired outcome with all those changes but... as I already said... Magicka races are balanced very well right now. Khajiit might lack a bit but that's negligible. You made so many suggestions when in fact all of them are not necessary because we already have maybe the "best" achievable balance for Magicka races.
I have yet to see optimized parses for Altmer/Dunmer/Breton so I'm only speaking in terms of what has been previously established. Keyword being optimized as most parses I've seen have had Altmer/Dunmer using Blue Food instead of Purple/Gold sustain food, or Breton using Purple/Gold Sustain food instead of Blue Food and the same enchantments being utilitzed. Also, I don't see Khajiit being on the wayside in terms of Magic DPS as balanced, which is something I'm trying to correct with my suggestion, as well as grant some inclusion for Stamina based options to at least open the door for these races in that department as well, even if its not as huge as Dunmer or Khajiit's introduction, like the 110 Stamina regen I suggested for Breton.Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Why even nerf Breton and buff Altmer when both are on par and this is backed up by several parses from different testers?
Both are on par in raid buff settings but Breton beats Altmer in more settings outside of that. My proposal was made with the mindset of balancing out the races in a way that is both as Lore Friendly as humanly possible while maintaining trade offs between the races. In 4.3.0 Khajiit and Breton were on par, if not out parsing, Altmer by small amounts but I had nerfed Altmer's Spell Damage buff with only taking into account Khajiit's DPS advantage and not taking into consideration Breton's (which I technincally made worse because I increased Breton's Magic regen). A nerf to Breton would be needed in order to offset the changes I made to Altmer while still keeping it the best at Magic sustain, which was why I had originally increased their Magic Regen to be better than Khajiit's suggested Magic Regen. It's all very intricate in order to achieve balance. You have to think in 20 different directions at once in order to really get it.
I get wut u wanna do here but ZoS already stated they don’t want a race who is considered a damage race to have sustain and vice versa
I know and I hate it. Doesn't mean I can't explain my thought process for others to pick at and help me better my arguments, should ZOS ever decide to take another swing at racial balance in the future.Argonian forever0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »I mean, why should High Elves have a monopoly on the worst utility passive in the game?
When you're conducting the post-mortem on Wrathstone, trying to explain the sudden wave of unsubs, this is why: absolutely awful decisions that should've never made it to PTS in the first place look like they're actually going to make it to live servers. If 4.3.4 is the end, then Wrathstone racial changes are an abject failure that cast the company's intentions in the worst possible light.
Orc - Orc is stupidly OP, with 2k Max Stam, 258 WD, 1k Health, and several universally useful utility passives. Completely overshadows Redguard.
Altmer - Altmer's Magicka generalist identity is destroyed by niche passives. All other mag races pull nearly identical DPS, but all of them offer superior universal utility. Off-stat regen is trash, and does not fairly compensate for what was taken away. "Increased chance to apply status effects" or a dozen other clearly superior alternatives have been suggested. The only explanation for refusing to offer better utility is an actual dev intent to drive players away from Altmer characters, a change that would give many of them actual utility with no statistical change in DPS.
Argonian - These guys got hit way too hard with the nerf hammer. Now they're not really good for anything. I guess that's one way of ending the Murkmire era, but damn though. Kinda brutal.
Bosmer - Penetration after dodge roll is awkward and pointless. Penetration based on range is just one of 1000 obvious alternatives that would actually suit the archer playstyle better. The stealth bonus nerf is senseless and should be reverted.
Frankly, these changes should not go live. If there's anything that can be done internally to remedy this cluster$#%^ before launch it is in the company's best interests to do it. I've already unsubbed and I'm sure many, many more will follow when they find out that >3 characters are affected and you want to charge people money if they want to fix >3 characters you've messed up. There's no surprise here that video games have to make updates and change things. Cool. But it is an unethical business practice to change things in such a way that intentionally dissatisfies customers so that you can profit on selling them fixes. It is absolutely transparent that this is happening here. All mag DPS parse nearly identical, yet you gimped the most popular Magicka DD race with no utility in PvE content to sell race change tokens. And there's a similar situation for Argonian tanks and Redguard DPS. You didn't just create equal alternatives - you created superior alternatives and nerfed the old meta. Players are smart enough to see that and are not going to keep paying your bills. I don't blame anyone in particular because I have no idea what internal factors cause companies to do stupid things like this, but somebody needs to take note and fix it. Many existing characters are being disadvantaged in this update in ways that are easily avoidable if ZOS would only put a little effort into ensuring that our concerns are given a serious look before going live.
honestly enough of this. im tired of altmer players complaining all day because "'muh altmer isnt the best race in the game"
Pre-nerf altmer was the most busted sh**. It was overwhelmingly the best mag race. Altmers still parse the best, they just have a utility passive that helps alot for pvp. Enough. all the races are pretty balanced, some are definitely better than others, but we can't just have every single race be exactly the same and do everything the same, whats the purpose of races then?
Even if they removed racial passives and only left each races flavor default passives people will still find a reason to say one race is better
How does that make any sense?
About as much sense as you changing rules for comparing altmer and orsimer passives.
I didn't change any rules. I'm quoting you here:I think just about any player on an orc would gladly trade high elves the sprint and health for spell recharge as is.
Which Orc player wouldn't trade fluff passives for stamina regen? Yes, stamina regen is useful on a STAMINA race. The reason it isn't useful on an Altmer is because Altmer is a MAGICKA race.
If you meant magicka regen, then that's a different story. But you need to be clear. And no orc would exchange sprint cost reduction and health regen for magicka regen.
Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.
Altmers spell recharge as is aka means orc would get mag regen. And you didn’t change any rules?
Of course they would, but you're comparing the wrong passives.
The core passives are:
+1000 max health
+300 health regen
vs.
+215 stamina regen
The "fluff" passives are:
+12% sprint cost reduction
+10% movement speed
vs.
+5% damage reduction while channeling
By original set up comparing all passives and I successfully did that and here you want specific comparison to 2 separate parts of the same passive and I used 2 entirely different orc passives In The original comparison
Now that I know your argument is "any orc would exchange 12% sprint cost reduction and 300 health regen for 215 magicka regen", my question to you is why do you think that? How would 215 magicka regen be more useful to an orc than 12% sprint cost reduction and 300 health regen? I'd love to hear how you get out of this nonsensical argument.
Talons, Wings, Chains, Streak, Dark Deal, Encase, Ritual, Cloak, Blur, Cripple, Impaling Shards, Shimmering Shield, Lotus. That's just off the top of my head I know I missed some buffs from some classes.
Thank you and on a an altmer sorc the stam morph a magsorc uses would also have some of its cost instantly refunded so not as bad if you factor in everythingEdited by BattleAxe on February 21, 2019 9:29PM0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Why even nerf Breton and buff Altmer when both are on par and this is backed up by several parses from different testers?
Both are on par in raid buff settings but Breton beats Altmer in more settings outside of that. My proposal was made with the mindset of balancing out the races in a way that is both as Lore Friendly as humanly possible while maintaining trade offs between the races. In 4.3.0 Khajiit and Breton were on par, if not out parsing, Altmer by small amounts but I had nerfed Altmer's Spell Damage buff with only taking into account Khajiit's DPS advantage and not taking into consideration Breton's (which I technincally made worse because I increased Breton's Magic regen). A nerf to Breton would be needed in order to offset the changes I made to Altmer while still keeping it the best at Magic sustain, which was why I had originally increased their Magic Regen to be better than Khajiit's suggested Magic Regen. It's all very intricate in order to achieve balance. You have to think in 20 different directions at once in order to really get it.
The scenarios where Bretons are better than Altmer right now are only virtual. They do not exist yet. Breton outperforming Altmer is an assumption backed by no facts at the moment.
Uhm and I totally agree with you on your desired outcome with all those changes but... as I already said... Magicka races are balanced very well right now. Khajiit might lack a bit but that's negligible. You made so many suggestions when in fact all of them are not necessary because we already have maybe the "best" achievable balance for Magicka races.
I have yet to see optimized parses for Altmer/Dunmer/Breton so I'm only speaking in terms of what has been previously established. Keyword being optimized as most parses I've seen have had Altmer/Dunmer using Blue Food instead of Purple/Gold sustain food, or Breton using Purple/Gold Sustain food instead of Blue Food and the same enchantments being utilitzed. Also, I don't see Khajiit being on the wayside in terms of Magic DPS as balanced, which is something I'm trying to correct with my suggestion, as well as grant some inclusion for Stamina based options to at least open the door for these races in that department as well, even if its not as huge as Dunmer or Khajiit's introduction, like the 110 Stamina regen I suggested for Breton.Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Why even nerf Breton and buff Altmer when both are on par and this is backed up by several parses from different testers?
Both are on par in raid buff settings but Breton beats Altmer in more settings outside of that. My proposal was made with the mindset of balancing out the races in a way that is both as Lore Friendly as humanly possible while maintaining trade offs between the races. In 4.3.0 Khajiit and Breton were on par, if not out parsing, Altmer by small amounts but I had nerfed Altmer's Spell Damage buff with only taking into account Khajiit's DPS advantage and not taking into consideration Breton's (which I technincally made worse because I increased Breton's Magic regen). A nerf to Breton would be needed in order to offset the changes I made to Altmer while still keeping it the best at Magic sustain, which was why I had originally increased their Magic Regen to be better than Khajiit's suggested Magic Regen. It's all very intricate in order to achieve balance. You have to think in 20 different directions at once in order to really get it.
I get wut u wanna do here but ZoS already stated they don’t want a race who is considered a damage race to have sustain and vice versa
I know and I hate it. Doesn't mean I can't explain my thought process for others to pick at and help me better my arguments, should ZOS ever decide to take another swing at racial balance in the future.
Racials will eventually be looked at again for sure this is second huge racial balance since launch and this is for the most part is balanced to a % difference between races for the most part0 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭Silver_Strider wrote: »should ZOS ever decide to take another swing at racial balance in the future.
They'd be better off hiring a drunken kindergartner than the people who brought you stam regen on Altmer, penetration after roll dodge, insanely OP Orc, and wrecked every Argonian tank on live. The number of mistakes here can only be one of two things: it's either an embarrassing level of incompetence or it's an unethical cash grab. Neither interpretation is favorable for the company and neither one inspires me to continue financial transactions with them.
I've seen waves of guildmates quit following past screw-ups of similar magnitude and I fully anticipate that it'll happen again if this mess goes live. I'd rather not see that happen again because of some stubborn decisions that are easily fixable in obvious ways that wouldn't leave anybody feeling cheated.Edited by Gnortranermara on February 21, 2019 9:44PM2 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »should ZOS ever decide to take another swing at racial balance in the future.
They'd be better off hiring a drunken kindergartner than the people who brought you stam regen on Altmer, penetration after roll dodge, insanely OP Orc, and wrecked every Argonian tank on live. The number of mistakes here can only be one of two things: it's either an embarrassing level of incompetence or it's an unethical cash grab. Neither interpretation is favorable for the company and neither one inspires me to continue financial transactions with them.
Believe me, I know they made mistakes. 4.3.0 was the best in terms of balance the races had ever been and apart from a few adjustments, were almost perfect in my eyes; It's the basis in which I adjusted everything for my suggestion and will continue to do so in the future so seeing everything that happened after 4.3.0 was just one punch to the gut after the other. I understand why ZOS wouldn't want to actually balance racial passives from a marketing perspective, I just don't like it is all.Argonian forever1 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭Silver_Strider wrote: »I understand why ZOS wouldn't want to actually balance racial passives from a marketing perspective, I just don't like it is all.
For me it's much more than just "not liking it". I consider it a deeply unethical business practice to sell race changes and then nerf races in ways that undermine their suitability for certain game roles after people have paid money for the optimization the race previously offered. People picked Altmer, or paid to switch to Altmer, at a time when Altmer had universally applicable mag DPS passives. That flexibility has been replaced by niche "utility" passives that are objectively inferior (compared to what they replaced and/or what other races are given) and give nothing of value to many existing builds. People picked Argonian or switched to it when they made top tier tanks. Now they've made superior options and nerfed the lizards. People picked Redguard for stam DPS, and although they're still ok they're completely overshadowed by an inexplicably OP alternative. In all these cases, old meta has been intentionally made unattractive for the purpose of compelling people to change. This is destroying racial identity, completely against their publicly stated goals (aka lies, based on their subsequent actions), and against balance and lore. (In other cases, like Bosmer, I "dislike" the changes because they're incompetently implemented but not necessarily as unethical as those above.)
My Altmer, Argonian, and Redguard total is around 9 or 10 characters, and I suspect a lot of endgame players are in a similar situation. I would change most of those due to these changes, if I were interested in remaining a paying customer. This whole thing is nothing more than a cash grab to dissatisfy people running old meta so they'll swap >3 characters. Why else have a 50% sale on tokens? Because they know a lot of people are going to spend cash to swap from races they've intentionally undermined. Honestly, anybody buying those things now is supporting a slimy, manipulative, disgusting practice: nerfing for profit. I personally will just take my business elsewhere, but I would be very surprised if ZOS gets away with this without any legal troubles from liberal types and European players with stringent consumer protection laws. But it's really not about law or TOS or whatever, but common friggin decency.Edited by Gnortranermara on February 21, 2019 11:27PM0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »I mean, why should High Elves have a monopoly on the worst utility passive in the game?
When you're conducting the post-mortem on Wrathstone, trying to explain the sudden wave of unsubs, this is why: absolutely awful decisions that should've never made it to PTS in the first place look like they're actually going to make it to live servers. If 4.3.4 is the end, then Wrathstone racial changes are an abject failure that cast the company's intentions in the worst possible light.
Orc - Orc is stupidly OP, with 2k Max Stam, 258 WD, 1k Health, and several universally useful utility passives. Completely overshadows Redguard.
Altmer - Altmer's Magicka generalist identity is destroyed by niche passives. All other mag races pull nearly identical DPS, but all of them offer superior universal utility. Off-stat regen is trash, and does not fairly compensate for what was taken away. "Increased chance to apply status effects" or a dozen other clearly superior alternatives have been suggested. The only explanation for refusing to offer better utility is an actual dev intent to drive players away from Altmer characters, a change that would give many of them actual utility with no statistical change in DPS.
Argonian - These guys got hit way too hard with the nerf hammer. Now they're not really good for anything. I guess that's one way of ending the Murkmire era, but damn though. Kinda brutal.
Bosmer - Penetration after dodge roll is awkward and pointless. Penetration based on range is just one of 1000 obvious alternatives that would actually suit the archer playstyle better. The stealth bonus nerf is senseless and should be reverted.
Frankly, these changes should not go live. If there's anything that can be done internally to remedy this cluster$#%^ before launch it is in the company's best interests to do it. I've already unsubbed and I'm sure many, many more will follow when they find out that >3 characters are affected and you want to charge people money if they want to fix >3 characters you've messed up. There's no surprise here that video games have to make updates and change things. Cool. But it is an unethical business practice to change things in such a way that intentionally dissatisfies customers so that you can profit on selling them fixes. It is absolutely transparent that this is happening here. All mag DPS parse nearly identical, yet you gimped the most popular Magicka DD race with no utility in PvE content to sell race change tokens. And there's a similar situation for Argonian tanks and Redguard DPS. You didn't just create equal alternatives - you created superior alternatives and nerfed the old meta. Players are smart enough to see that and are not going to keep paying your bills. I don't blame anyone in particular because I have no idea what internal factors cause companies to do stupid things like this, but somebody needs to take note and fix it. Many existing characters are being disadvantaged in this update in ways that are easily avoidable if ZOS would only put a little effort into ensuring that our concerns are given a serious look before going live.
honestly enough of this. im tired of altmer players complaining all day because "'muh altmer isnt the best race in the game"
Pre-nerf altmer was the most busted sh**. It was overwhelmingly the best mag race. Altmers still parse the best, they just have a utility passive that helps alot for pvp. Enough. all the races are pretty balanced, some are definitely better than others, but we can't just have every single race be exactly the same and do everything the same, whats the purpose of races then?
Even if they removed racial passives and only left each races flavor default passives people will still find a reason to say one race is better
How does that make any sense?
About as much sense as you changing rules for comparing altmer and orsimer passives.
I didn't change any rules. I'm quoting you here:I think just about any player on an orc would gladly trade high elves the sprint and health for spell recharge as is.
Which Orc player wouldn't trade fluff passives for stamina regen? Yes, stamina regen is useful on a STAMINA race. The reason it isn't useful on an Altmer is because Altmer is a MAGICKA race. The two are not directly comparable at all. It would be like asking if Altmer players would trade their 5% damage mitigation while channeling for 215 magicka regen.
If you meant magicka regen, then that's a different story. But you need to be clear. And no orc would exchange sprint cost reduction and health regen for magicka regen.
that's not entirely true. My magicka characters invest CP into stam recovery, my stam characters invest CP into Magicka recovery. you need to dodge roll/break free and for stam characters more cloaks more runes more rituals. i really don't think that passive is the end of the world, if anything it just means you can free up some CP.
don't misunderstand tho. i do understand why people are disappointed with the change, it's just not completely worthless.Edited by Lucky28 on February 21, 2019 11:37PMInvictus0 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭that's not entirely true. My magicka characters invest CP into stam recovery, my stam characters invest CP into Magicka recovery. you need to dodge roll/break free and for stam characters more cloaks more runes more Rituals. i really don't think that passive is the end of the world.
Ok, try to understand the point we're making: you want stam regen on your mag toon and you already have the tools you need to get it. Most of us do not want it, do not need it, and lose the possibility of having legitimate utility in its place when such a niche attribute that only a few people want is forced onto all of us through racial passives. Altmer was previously a magicka generalist, and now has utility for narrow niches only while other comparable races have universal utility (and the same DPS). The devs have literally given us a so-called "damage race" that has the same effective DPS as everyone else and less utility. They'll be harder to play and sustain on, and bring nothing extra to the table for most content and roles. I don't consider it a good passive (and you shouldn't either) just because you get something that you could've easily gotten from a glyph when everyone else is getting screwed.0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »No one except maybe the top like 1% of DPS in the game will be required to change their race. No race is being nerfed that hard. I do understand why people are losing it in theory, but very little is going to change for most people and again, aside from the top percent of DPS roles everyone else will do fine with the races they currently have.
Man, I'm just saying they should try to soften the blow a little. If mag regen had us too far ahead of the pack, fine, but off-stat regen is the worst possible passive in this game. That's an incredibly niche thing to need, and even if you did need it you'd need more than this and other hybrid stats to be worth it.
Bro, it’s not off stat regen, that’s misleading. It’s whichever is lowest and it amounts to 258 regen of your lowest stat. Is this absolutely ideal for PvE? No. But think about it. Let’s say you had 1500 magicka regen on live. 9% of that equates to 135. I’m not sure how things stack up and in which order but that’s not all that much. At the worst one recovery glyph will offset the difference if you need it. And let’s say you have like 10k Stam in PvE? As soon as your magicka dips below that even if it’s just 9.8k, that regen will kick in to help you bring your stars back up. And you do roll dodge in PvE to avoid damage so it’s not entirely useless. And again in PvP it’s pretty great, so if you’re hoping for them to just slap on something that makes you 100% satisfied then I wouldn’t hold your breath. Altmers have still been shown to be very viable. Are you in the top 1% of DPS that goes for worlds first completions and fastest runs? If so ok, maybe you you’ve got something to complain about, otherwise just chill. It’s really not that bad of a passive.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »No one except maybe the top like 1% of DPS in the game will be required to change their race. No race is being nerfed that hard. I do understand why people are losing it in theory, but very little is going to change for most people and again, aside from the top percent of DPS roles everyone else will do fine with the races they currently have.
Man, I'm just saying they should try to soften the blow a little. If mag regen had us too far ahead of the pack, fine, but off-stat regen is the worst possible passive in this game. That's an incredibly niche thing to need, and even if you did need it you'd need more than this and other hybrid stats to be worth it.
Bro, it’s not off stat regen, that’s misleading. It’s whichever is lowest and it amounts to 258 regen of your lowest stat. Is this absolutely ideal for PvE? No. But think about it. Let’s say you had 1500 magicka regen on live. 9% of that equates to 135. I’m not sure how things stack up and in which order but that’s not all that much. At the worst one recovery glyph will offset the difference if you need it. And let’s say you have like 10k Stam in PvE? As soon as your magicka dips below that even if it’s just 9.8k, that regen will kick in to help you bring your stars back up. And you do roll dodge in PvE to avoid damage so it’s not entirely useless. And again in PvP it’s pretty great, so if you’re hoping for them to just slap on something that makes you 100% satisfied then I wouldn’t hold your breath. Altmers have still been shown to be very viable. Are you in the top 1% of DPS that goes for worlds first completions and fastest runs? If so ok, maybe you you’ve got something to complain about, otherwise just chill. It’s really not that bad of a passive.
It absolutely is off-stat regen...
"The return for this passive will now restore your lowest MAXIMUM resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525"
If that wasn't clear enough, this has been confirmed via testing as well. It only restores stamina on a magicka build.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 22, 2019 3:24AM0 -
Vulsahdaal✭✭✭✭✭
✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »No one except maybe the top like 1% of DPS in the game will be required to change their race. No race is being nerfed that hard. I do understand why people are losing it in theory, but very little is going to change for most people and again, aside from the top percent of DPS roles everyone else will do fine with the races they currently have.
Man, I'm just saying they should try to soften the blow a little. If mag regen had us too far ahead of the pack, fine, but off-stat regen is the worst possible passive in this game. That's an incredibly niche thing to need, and even if you did need it you'd need more than this and other hybrid stats to be worth it.
Bro, it’s not off stat regen, that’s misleading. It’s whichever is lowest and it amounts to 258 regen of your lowest stat. Is this absolutely ideal for PvE? No. But think about it. Let’s say you had 1500 magicka regen on live. 9% of that equates to 135. I’m not sure how things stack up and in which order but that’s not all that much.
At the worst one recovery glyph will offset the difference if you need it. And let’s say you have like 10k Stam in PvE? As soon as your magicka dips below that even if it’s just 9.8k, that regen will kick in to help you bring your stars back up.
No, it wont. If you have 10k stam and your magicka dips to 9.8k, you still will gain stamina. Even if your magicka dips to empty, you will still gain stamina.
Only you really wont gain anything at all because your stamina is currently full at 10k. So the regen is lost.
Completely useless..
1 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »No one except maybe the top like 1% of DPS in the game will be required to change their race. No race is being nerfed that hard. I do understand why people are losing it in theory, but very little is going to change for most people and again, aside from the top percent of DPS roles everyone else will do fine with the races they currently have.
Man, I'm just saying they should try to soften the blow a little. If mag regen had us too far ahead of the pack, fine, but off-stat regen is the worst possible passive in this game. That's an incredibly niche thing to need, and even if you did need it you'd need more than this and other hybrid stats to be worth it.
Bro, it’s not off stat regen, that’s misleading. It’s whichever is lowest and it amounts to 258 regen of your lowest stat. Is this absolutely ideal for PvE? No. But think about it. Let’s say you had 1500 magicka regen on live. 9% of that equates to 135. I’m not sure how things stack up and in which order but that’s not all that much. At the worst one recovery glyph will offset the difference if you need it. And let’s say you have like 10k Stam in PvE? As soon as your magicka dips below that even if it’s just 9.8k, that regen will kick in to help you bring your stars back up. And you do roll dodge in PvE to avoid damage so it’s not entirely useless. And again in PvP it’s pretty great, so if you’re hoping for them to just slap on something that makes you 100% satisfied then I wouldn’t hold your breath. Altmers have still been shown to be very viable. Are you in the top 1% of DPS that goes for worlds first completions and fastest runs? If so ok, maybe you you’ve got something to complain about, otherwise just chill. It’s really not that bad of a passive.
It absolutely is off-stat regen...
"The return for this passive will now restore your lowest MAXIMUM resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525"
If that wasn't clear enough, this has been confirmed via testing as well. It only restores stamina on a magicka build.
When did that change? It was worded as lowest resource after using a class abilty. They changed it to just do Stamina? I did not read that into the new wording but if it’s been tested I can’t argue with that. Should have just left it. Well at any rate its still very useful for PvP and Altmers are still in a fine place in PvE. Imo though, having it return whichever is lowest would be an ok change.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »No one except maybe the top like 1% of DPS in the game will be required to change their race. No race is being nerfed that hard. I do understand why people are losing it in theory, but very little is going to change for most people and again, aside from the top percent of DPS roles everyone else will do fine with the races they currently have.
Man, I'm just saying they should try to soften the blow a little. If mag regen had us too far ahead of the pack, fine, but off-stat regen is the worst possible passive in this game. That's an incredibly niche thing to need, and even if you did need it you'd need more than this and other hybrid stats to be worth it.
Bro, it’s not off stat regen, that’s misleading. It’s whichever is lowest and it amounts to 258 regen of your lowest stat. Is this absolutely ideal for PvE? No. But think about it. Let’s say you had 1500 magicka regen on live. 9% of that equates to 135. I’m not sure how things stack up and in which order but that’s not all that much. At the worst one recovery glyph will offset the difference if you need it. And let’s say you have like 10k Stam in PvE? As soon as your magicka dips below that even if it’s just 9.8k, that regen will kick in to help you bring your stars back up. And you do roll dodge in PvE to avoid damage so it’s not entirely useless. And again in PvP it’s pretty great, so if you’re hoping for them to just slap on something that makes you 100% satisfied then I wouldn’t hold your breath. Altmers have still been shown to be very viable. Are you in the top 1% of DPS that goes for worlds first completions and fastest runs? If so ok, maybe you you’ve got something to complain about, otherwise just chill. It’s really not that bad of a passive.
It absolutely is off-stat regen...
"The return for this passive will now restore your lowest MAXIMUM resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525"
If that wasn't clear enough, this has been confirmed via testing as well. It only restores stamina on a magicka build.
When did that change? It was worded as lowest resource after using a class abilty. They changed it to just do Stamina? I did not read that into the new wording but if it’s been tested I can’t argue with that. Should have just left it. Well at any rate its still very useful for PvP and Altmers are still in a fine place in PvE. Imo though, having it return whichever is lowest would be an ok change.
It always said maximum resource in the description. Some players suggested it might be the lowest current resource initially (since that would be a lot more useful) but testing confirmed it was the lowest maximum resource.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 22, 2019 3:44AM0 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭People thinking stamina is "useless", please try to do vMoS HM without rolling. Or sprinting, blocking or interrupting, if you want an extra bit of spice. But I assure you just doing it without rolling will suffice.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade2 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bro, it’s not off stat regen, that’s misleading. It’s whichever is lowest
Yeah, that's the very definition of off-stat. It's clearly talking about your max, not your current value. It has always been that way. For mag Altmer, stam will always be the lowest maximum resource. The main stat is mag and the off-stat is stam. Even in the rare event of an oddball stam Altmer, it's still off-stat for him too because he'll get mag (which is his off-stat) back instead.
"Spell" Recharge is literally the worst racial passive in the game, by miles. The fact that it ever made it to PTS, and then survived 2 weeks, and will probably even go live, is a testament to some serious problems at ZOS.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »People thinking stamina is "useless", please try to do vMoS HM without rolling. Or sprinting, blocking or interrupting, if you want an extra bit of spice. But I assure you just doing it without rolling will suffice.
No one ever said you don't need to roll. You just don't need to spam it, not that this passive lets you spam it (it's just 215 stamina regen). Mechanics are spaced out far apart enough in dungeons and trials that you don't need anything more than base stamina regen. I've never once thought to myself while doing vMoS "I wish I had more stamina". And again, if I ever ran into a scenario where I needed more stamina, 215 stamina regen wouldn't alleviate that (it's not an immediate injection of stamina when you run out, it's just regen).Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 22, 2019 4:20AM0 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »People thinking stamina is "useless", please try to do vMoS HM without rolling. Or sprinting, blocking or interrupting, if you want an extra bit of spice. But I assure you just doing it without rolling will suffice.
No one ever said you don't need to roll. You just don't need to spam it, not that this passive lets you spam it (it's just 215 stamina regen). Mechanics are spaced out far apart enough in dungeons and trials that you don't need anything more than base stamina regen. I've never once thought to myself while doing vMoS "I wish I had more stamina". And again, if I ever ran into a scenario where I needed more stamina, 215 stamina regen wouldn't alleviate that (it's not an immediate injection of stamina when you run out, it's just regen).
So you dont run tristat pots on the final boss HM to get extra stam regen on your mag build, like pretty much everyone else?EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade2 -
Priyasekarssk✭✭✭✭✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »I mean, why should High Elves have a monopoly on the worst utility passive in the game?
When you're conducting the post-mortem on Wrathstone, trying to explain the sudden wave of unsubs, this is why: absolutely awful decisions that should've never made it to PTS in the first place look like they're actually going to make it to live servers. If 4.3.4 is the end, then Wrathstone racial changes are an abject failure that cast the company's intentions in the worst possible light.
Orc - Orc is stupidly OP, with 2k Max Stam, 258 WD, 1k Health, and several universally useful utility passives. Completely overshadows Redguard.
Altmer - Altmer's Magicka generalist identity is destroyed by niche passives. All other mag races pull nearly identical DPS, but all of them offer superior universal utility. Off-stat regen is trash, and does not fairly compensate for what was taken away. "Increased chance to apply status effects" or a dozen other clearly superior alternatives have been suggested. The only explanation for refusing to offer better utility is an actual dev intent to drive players away from Altmer characters, a change that would give many of them actual utility with no statistical change in DPS.
Argonian - These guys got hit way too hard with the nerf hammer. Now they're not really good for anything. I guess that's one way of ending the Murkmire era, but damn though. Kinda brutal.
Bosmer - Penetration after dodge roll is awkward and pointless. Penetration based on range is just one of 1000 obvious alternatives that would actually suit the archer playstyle better. The stealth bonus nerf is senseless and should be reverted.
Frankly, these changes should not go live. If there's anything that can be done internally to remedy this cluster$#%^ before launch it is in the company's best interests to do it. I've already unsubbed and I'm sure many, many more will follow when they find out that >3 characters are affected and you want to charge people money if they want to fix >3 characters you've messed up. There's no surprise here that video games have to make updates and change things. Cool. But it is an unethical business practice to change things in such a way that intentionally dissatisfies customers so that you can profit on selling them fixes. It is absolutely transparent that this is happening here. All mag DPS parse nearly identical, yet you gimped the most popular Magicka DD race with no utility in PvE content to sell race change tokens. And there's a similar situation for Argonian tanks and Redguard DPS. You didn't just create equal alternatives - you created superior alternatives and nerfed the old meta. Players are smart enough to see that and are not going to keep paying your bills. I don't blame anyone in particular because I have no idea what internal factors cause companies to do stupid things like this, but somebody needs to take note and fix it. Many existing characters are being disadvantaged in this update in ways that are easily avoidable if ZOS would only put a little effort into ensuring that our concerns are given a serious look before going live.
Its universally known that ZOs is against AD alliance, despite it never won a alliance war not even in third place. Moreover AD is third in all alliance wars by a distant margin. Its not because of skill. ZOs intentionally want to lose by garbage balance. You are wasting your time. They very well know its not balanced and completely biased towards DC. EP is more or less balanced. They will simply laugh at your angry post behind the back. Just think for a minute. Even a complete noob in this game can figure out in few seconds.Edited by Priyasekarssk on February 22, 2019 4:37AM0
