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Wood Elf Racial Changes -- ZOS, Please Stop Ignoring Your Community

GrumpyDuckling
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This is (probably) my last effort to try to get ZOS to open their eyes and see the community's feedback regarding Bosmer race changes before they go live. I'm doing my best to write about this objectively (I play multiple races in multiple roles), and with as much logic and reasoning as possible, regarding both balance and lore.

1) Roll Dodge Speed Boost Doesn't Make Sense
Bosmer are agile, meaning that their roll dodge should not cause them to move at a faster top speed than other races after they perform a roll dodge because that's not how agility works. Agility is performing quick moves, like roll dodge, more easily and more gracefully. Giving Bosmer a cost reduction for roll dodge makes much more sense than granting them a random bonus to their top speed after they perform a roll dodge.

2) Weird, Conditional Penetration Bonus
In the PTS Notes v4.3.2 developer comments you stated that you didn't want to add more passive power to Bosmer. That's fine, but the conditional penetration bonus after a roll dodge is just weird in how it fits into the game. Why not follow the suggestion above, and remove the bonus to move speed (which has already proved to cause PVP concern) in favor of reduced cost for dodge roll (which makes more sense) and then implement a flat penetration bonus that is active at all times? You would be taking some power away (move speed) and adding a little power elsewhere (flat penetration bonus). If there would be balance issues with a flat bonus, then consider reducing the total amount of penetration that the flat bonus gives -- it doesn't have to be as high as the 1500 penetration that is currently tied to Hunter's Eye dodge roll.

3) Stealth Removal and Your Consistent Silence
By removing stealth bonuses you are flat out ignoring the stealth aspect of Bosmer lore. Rite of Theft, sneaky hunters, and even one of the Bosmeri culture's most famous and renowned poems (Meh Ayleidion, which means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding") all speak to Bosmeri reliance on stealth. We get why you removed their stealth bonuses -- you want each class to feel different and decided to go with Khajiit for sneak bonuses -- but in doing that you are ignoring lore and upsetting some of your players who built their characters around the fact that Wood Elves have had sneak bonuses. You are choosing to remain steadfast in your position to maintain lore inaccuracy and the racial dismantling of builds that were specifically built around a lore-inspired theme and play style.

Please, concerning all of the above, check your pride (I know it doesn't feel good to be told that what you are doing isn't great, or that it doesn't make sense) in favor of logic and reason as it relates to balance and lore.
Edited by GrumpyDuckling on February 19, 2019 1:05AM
  • MLGProPlayer
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    How else would you know you're on the ESO forums if the developers didn't ignore you?

    Making ill-advised changes and then going silent is the ZOS MO.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 19, 2019 1:02AM
  • Razorback174
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    ZoS is not one for reverting anything.

    In all my time here, I've only seen them roll back one thing, and that was the shields with cast time in Murkmire, and only because they got such severe backlash across the board about how awful that would have made the game.

    Everything else? Pushed right on through:
    No stamina regen while blocking in IC? Check
    Templar heals made entirely sub-par in Thieves Guild? Check
    Destroying sustain and creating Heavy Attacks Online in Morrowind? Check (I'm also fairly sure there was a massive exodus after this one)
    Continual gutting of core class identities and abilities? Check

    Bosmer are a dead-end race now. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be to move on.
  • Eiron77
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    Bosmer are a dead-end race now.
    If that's the goal, they succeeded.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Even giving ZOS the benefit of the doubt and letting the dodgeroll passive movement speed and penetration stand as it is. Bosmer have been better at sneaking than Khajiit in two out of three recent Elder Scrolls games and even in the 1 in 3 they had a bonus to sneaking (just not higher than Khajiit). ZOS thinks "meh who cares. It's free diversity estate! Change it to... rolls dice detection!"
    Sure, Bosmer have a justification for better eyesight but at the expense of stealth? No justification found.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • BlueRaven
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Even giving ZOS the benefit of the doubt and letting the dodgeroll passive movement speed and penetration stand as it is. Bosmer have been better at sneaking than Khajiit in two out of three recent Elder Scrolls games and even in the 1 in 3 they had a bonus to sneaking (just not higher than Khajiit). ZOS thinks "meh who cares. It's free diversity estate! Change it to... rolls dice detection!"
    Sure, Bosmer have a justification for better eyesight but at the expense of stealth? No justification found.

    And in skyrim I believe it was kahjiits that had a better eyesight passive as well.

  • Ratzkifal
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Even giving ZOS the benefit of the doubt and letting the dodgeroll passive movement speed and penetration stand as it is. Bosmer have been better at sneaking than Khajiit in two out of three recent Elder Scrolls games and even in the 1 in 3 they had a bonus to sneaking (just not higher than Khajiit). ZOS thinks "meh who cares. It's free diversity estate! Change it to... rolls dice detection!"
    Sure, Bosmer have a justification for better eyesight but at the expense of stealth? No justification found.

    And in skyrim I believe it was kahjiits that had a better eyesight passive as well.

    Indeed. Not only in Skyrim though. They also had nightvision in Morrowind and Oblivion I think (not sure).
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • zyk
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    ZOS, you're worse than SOE. You guys make John Smedley look good.
  • max_only
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    If you are a Bosmer werewolf can you test if you get a speed bonus for roll dodge? I have my roll dodge bound to a key so when I press it in WW form I dodge things even if it doesn’t animate the wolf rolling. I want to know if doing this makes faster werewolves. Hasty Retreat from the bow skill line doesn’t make ww faster but this might. And if it does... lololololol
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Ratzkifal
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    max_only wrote: »
    If you are a Bosmer werewolf can you test if you get a speed bonus for roll dodge? I have my roll dodge bound to a key so when I press it in WW form I dodge things even if it doesn’t animate the wolf rolling. I want to know if doing this makes faster werewolves. Hasty Retreat from the bow skill line doesn’t make ww faster but this might. And if it does... lololololol

    @max_only It should, considering that the poison resistance still works in werewolf form. Then again, I wouldn't trust common sense and logic to be at work in this game...
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    This is (probably) my last effort to try to get ZOS to open their eyes and see the community's feedback regarding Bosmer race changes before they go live. I'm doing my best to write about this objectively (I play multiple races in multiple roles), and with as much logic and reasoning as possible, regarding both balance and lore.

    1) Roll Dodge Speed Boost Doesn't Make Sense
    I actually don't mind it terribly, but it's just Hasty Retreat+.
    2) Weird, Conditional Penetration Bonus
    Yes, this is just weird.
    3) Stealth Removal and Your Consistent Silence
    By removing stealth bonuses you are flat out ignoring the stealth aspect of Bosmer lore. Rite of Theft, sneaky hunters, and even one of the Bosmeri culture's most famous and renowned poems (Meh Ayleidion, which means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding") all speak to Bosmeri reliance on stealth. We get why you removed their stealth bonuses -- you want each class to feel different and decided to go with Khajiit for sneak bonuses -- but in doing that you are ignoring lore and upsetting some of your players who built their characters around the fact that Wood Elves have had sneak bonuses. You are choosing to remain steadfast in your position to maintain lore inaccuracy and the racial dismantling of builds that were specifically built around a lore-inspired theme and play style.
    I quoted the whole thing because it needed to be repeated. But I disagree with the getting why they removed it. It was silly to remove it. It remains silly. Did Bretons get their bonus to magic removed because Altmer already had it? Why do Reguards get a bonus to stamina, isn't that a Bosmer exclusive? Of course not, and it's ridiculous to think it necessary in order to make the races distinct. The whole issue with stealth has been completely mismanaged and was ill-conceived from the start.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    It's over. With stealth-related events coming up, the fix needs to be immediate or it might as well not happen at all.

    And "immediate" doesn't seem to be in the cards.
  • zyk
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    It's flat-out wrong to remove signature characteristics from a race in an RPG 5 years after launch unless it is blatantly OP or gamebreaking somehow. That is not the case with many of the racial changes.

    ZOS could have narrowed the statistical differences between races, applied flat maximum resource bonuses and tweaked OP and UP races without significantly changing racial themes/identities as they did with Bosmer, Dunmer and Altmer.

    This is where ZOS shows disregard for its players. People play RPGs for a multitude of reasons, but at the roots of the genre is character building.

    In every RPG I've played from pen and paper AD&D to SSI to MUDs to Square to Bioware and so on involved a character who developed a story based on a variety of factors including the traits of the race and class selected. I haven't recorded any of these stories nor have I ever shared them with anyone; I don't RP. I remember dozens very clearly and they are fun to recall. This is central to how I enjoy games like this.

    The same is true for all of my ESO characters at some level; especially my Dunmer characters.

    All of this is outside of playstyle considerations, especially for Dunmer with flame damage and Bosmer Thieves and Assassins.
    Edited by zyk on February 19, 2019 6:01AM
  • SirLeeMinion
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    ZoS is not one for reverting anything...
    Sadly, I agree and have uninstalled the PTS for that reason.

  • GrumpyDuckling
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    This is (probably) my last effort to try to get ZOS to open their eyes and see the community's feedback regarding Bosmer race changes before they go live. I'm doing my best to write about this objectively (I play multiple races in multiple roles), and with as much logic and reasoning as possible, regarding both balance and lore.

    1) Roll Dodge Speed Boost Doesn't Make Sense
    I actually don't mind it terribly, but it's just Hasty Retreat+.
    2) Weird, Conditional Penetration Bonus
    Yes, this is just weird.
    3) Stealth Removal and Your Consistent Silence
    By removing stealth bonuses you are flat out ignoring the stealth aspect of Bosmer lore. Rite of Theft, sneaky hunters, and even one of the Bosmeri culture's most famous and renowned poems (Meh Ayleidion, which means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding") all speak to Bosmeri reliance on stealth. We get why you removed their stealth bonuses -- you want each class to feel different and decided to go with Khajiit for sneak bonuses -- but in doing that you are ignoring lore and upsetting some of your players who built their characters around the fact that Wood Elves have had sneak bonuses. You are choosing to remain steadfast in your position to maintain lore inaccuracy and the racial dismantling of builds that were specifically built around a lore-inspired theme and play style.
    I quoted the whole thing because it needed to be repeated. But I disagree with the getting why they removed it. It was silly to remove it. It remains silly. Did Bretons get their bonus to magic removed because Altmer already had it? Why do Reguards get a bonus to stamina, isn't that a Bosmer exclusive? Of course not, and it's ridiculous to think it necessary in order to make the races distinct. The whole issue with stealth has been completely mismanaged and was ill-conceived from the start.

    Not sure why you "disagree with the getting why they removed it." You're disagreeing with a fact -- we understand why ZOS did it because they straight up told us their reasoning for why they removed it when they said:

    "A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives."
    Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1

    We definitely understand why they made the choice they did because they told us. Their reasoning doesn't make sense, however, so that is the part worth disagreeing about.
    Edited by GrumpyDuckling on February 19, 2019 12:34PM
  • TheRealSniker
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    Disgustedchu.png

    Not sure if this post is a meme or not, why are people on forums so misinformed
    Edited by TheRealSniker on February 19, 2019 1:16PM
  • olsborg
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    2) Weird, Conditional Penetration Bonus
    In the PTS Notes v4.3.2 developer comments you stated that you didn't want to add more passive power to Bosmer. That's fine, but the conditional penetration bonus after a roll dodge is just weird in how it fits into the game. Why not follow the suggestion above, and remove the bonus to move speed (which has already proved to cause PVP concern) in favor of reduced cost for dodge roll (which makes more sense) and then implement a flat penetration bonus that is active at all times? You would be taking some power away (move speed) and adding a little power elsewhere (flat penetration bonus). If there would be balance issues with a flat bonus, then consider reducing the total amount of penetration that the flat bonus gives -- it doesn't have to be as high as the 1500 penetration that is currently tied to Hunter's Eye dodge roll.

    Yea that, agreed.
    Edited by olsborg on February 19, 2019 1:11PM

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • valeriiya
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    With the Loremaster leaving i think we'll see more changes that break lore unfortunately.
  • Marcus_Thracius
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    frankly stopped giving a rats a** about it - just move on and dont sub they say - well its done - free to play i dont mind then
  • Lord_Eomer
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    You do not represent an entire community,

    I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

    Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

    I am fine with Bosmer changes!
    Edited by Lord_Eomer on February 19, 2019 2:23PM
  • Kuramas9tails
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    Eiron77 wrote: »
    Bosmer are a dead-end race now.
    If that's the goal, they succeeded.
    Good. Creepy little cannibals.
      Your friendly neighborhood crazy cat lady of ESO
      New PSN name: SundariTheLast. Proud seller in RedEye Empire, PURPLE GANG and Backalley Trading.
      AD High Elf Mageblade DPS (General)(Former Empress) -- Stormproof/VMOL, VHOF, VDSA completion
      AD Khajiit Mageblade DPS -- Flawless Conquerer
      FOR THE QUEEN!
      PS4/NA
    • GrumpyDuckling
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      You do not represent an entire community,

      I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

      Everyone their best race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

      I am fine with Bosmer changes!

      Balance can be achieved without breaking lore and making changes that don't make sense. I think you are talking about racial passives from a balance perspective, but I can't say I that I fully understand your post.
      Edited by GrumpyDuckling on February 19, 2019 5:15PM
    • Cundu_Ertur
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      We definitely understand why they made the choice they did because they told us. Their reasoning doesn't make sense, however, so that is the part worth disagreeing about.
      The bolded part. The reason provided was internally inconsistent and self-contradictory.

      "...so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives." There were two parts to the original passive, a hiding bonus and a bonus to damage out of stealth. We know Khajiit get the hiding bonus, what was kept for Bosmer? NOTHING.

      So, no; I don't get this change at all.
      You do not represent an entire community,

      I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

      Everyone their best race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

      I am fine with Bosmer changes!

      Balanced can be achieved without breaking lore and making changes that don't make sense. I think you are talking about racial passives from a balance perspective, but I can't say I that I fully understand your post.

      And I agree. The problem is that there are two types of players here, and it's not just PVE vs. PVP but more basic than that. There are the players who come here from Morrowind via Oblivion and Skyrim who are here for the story, the big bundle of stories that are collectively called 'lore;' and there are the number-crunching, dps parsing, abacus-click-clacking min/max pro-circuit ub3r-l33t gamers. The first group are looking at this change, and some of the other changes, and saying, "Hey, this isn't part of the story and has never been part of the story, it's a stupid change." And the second group comes back with, "What are you talking about? Look at these parses, look at this click-clack of the abacus! You people are idiot whiners who complain about dumb things." Despite looking like the same language, there is no communication.
      Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
    • Starlight_Knight
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      They seriously need to take out that weird penetration bonus!
    • max_only
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      You do not represent an entire community,

      I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

      Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

      I am fine with Bosmer changes!

      How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
      When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well

      Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?

      These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.
      #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
      #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
      || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
      ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
    • Crown
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      We definitely understand why they made the choice they did because they told us. Their reasoning doesn't make sense, however, so that is the part worth disagreeing about.

      Welcome to how PvP players have felt since 1.5.
      Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
      PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com
    • BlueRaven
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      32205444207_242e8862a8_c.jpg
    • GrumpyDuckling
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      BlueRaven wrote: »
      32205444207_242e8862a8_c.jpg

      Haha, sneaking while Imperial costs 3% less, I assume?
    • BlueRaven
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      BlueRaven wrote: »
      32205444207_242e8862a8_c.jpg

      Haha, sneaking while Imperial costs 3% less, I assume?

      Yeah. Kinda mind blowing when you think about it, right?
    • Cundu_Ertur
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      BlueRaven wrote: »
      BlueRaven wrote: »
      32205444207_242e8862a8_c.jpg

      Haha, sneaking while Imperial costs 3% less, I assume?

      Yeah. Kinda mind blowing when you think about it, right?

      FFS are you kidding me?
      Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
    • BlueRaven
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      BlueRaven wrote: »
      BlueRaven wrote: »
      32205444207_242e8862a8_c.jpg

      Haha, sneaking while Imperial costs 3% less, I assume?

      Yeah. Kinda mind blowing when you think about it, right?

      FFS are you kidding me?

      I had the same reaction when this was pointed out to me.

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