I had the same reaction when this was pointed out to me.Cundu_Ertur wrote: »FFS are you kidding me?
Lord_Dexter wrote: »You do not represent an entire community,
I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.
Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.
I am fine with Bosmer changes!
How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well
Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?
These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.
Starlight_Knight wrote: »They seriously need to take out that weird penetration bonus!
Lord_Dexter wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »You do not represent an entire community,
I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.
Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.
I am fine with Bosmer changes!
How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well
Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?
These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.
Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.
Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.
Lord_Dexter wrote: »Starlight_Knight wrote: »They seriously need to take out that weird penetration bonus!
Its not bad on NB dodge rolling + cloaking!
Lord_Dexter wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »You do not represent an entire community,
I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.
Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.
I am fine with Bosmer changes!
How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well
Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?
These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.
Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.
Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.
Lord_Dexter wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »You do not represent an entire community,
I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.
Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.
I am fine with Bosmer changes!
How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well
Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?
These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.
Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.
Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.
MLGProPlayer wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »You do not represent an entire community,
I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.
Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.
I am fine with Bosmer changes!
How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well
Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?
These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.
Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.
Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.
Bosmer aren't doing great at all. They aren't competing with the top races for DPS and they lost a core part of their racial identity. There is literally nothing they are excelling at right now.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »This is (probably) my last effort to try to get ZOS to open their eyes and see the community's feedback regarding Bosmer race changes before they go live. I'm doing my best to write about this objectively (I play multiple races in multiple roles), and with as much logic and reasoning as possible, regarding both balance and lore.
1) Roll Dodge Speed Boost Doesn't Make Sense
Bosmer are agile, meaning that their roll dodge should not cause them to move at a faster top speed than other races after they perform a roll dodge because that's not how agility works. Agility is performing quick moves, like roll dodge, more easily and more gracefully. Giving Bosmer a cost reduction for roll dodge makes much more sense than granting them a random bonus to their top speed after they perform a roll dodge.
2) Weird, Conditional Penetration Bonus
In the PTS Notes v4.3.2 developer comments you stated that you didn't want to add more passive power to Bosmer. That's fine, but the conditional penetration bonus after a roll dodge is just weird in how it fits into the game. Why not follow the suggestion above, and remove the bonus to move speed (which has already proved to cause PVP concern) in favor of reduced cost for dodge roll (which makes more sense) and then implement a flat penetration bonus that is active at all times? You would be taking some power away (move speed) and adding a little power elsewhere (flat penetration bonus). If there would be balance issues with a flat bonus, then consider reducing the total amount of penetration that the flat bonus gives -- it doesn't have to be as high as the 1500 penetration that is currently tied to Hunter's Eye dodge roll.
3) Stealth Removal and Your Consistent Silence
By removing stealth bonuses you are flat out ignoring the stealth aspect of Bosmer lore. Rite of Theft, sneaky hunters, and even one of the Bosmeri culture's most famous and renowned poems (Meh Ayleidion, which means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding") all speak to Bosmeri reliance on stealth. We get why you removed their stealth bonuses -- you want each class to feel different and decided to go with Khajiit for sneak bonuses -- but in doing that you are ignoring lore and upsetting some of your players who built their characters around the fact that Wood Elves have had sneak bonuses. You are choosing to remain steadfast in your position to maintain lore inaccuracy and the racial dismantling of builds that were specifically built around a lore-inspired theme and play style.
Please, concerning all of the above, check your pride (I know it doesn't feel good to be told that what you are doing isn't great, or that it doesn't make sense) in favor of logic and reason as it relates to balance and lore.
It's flat-out wrong to remove signature characteristics from a race in an RPG 5 years after launch unless it is blatantly OP or gamebreaking somehow. That is not the case with many of the racial changes.
ZOS could have narrowed the statistical differences between races, applied flat maximum resource bonuses and tweaked OP and UP races without significantly changing racial themes/identities as they did with Bosmer, Dunmer and Altmer.
This is where ZOS shows disregard for its players. People play RPGs for a multitude of reasons, but at the roots of the genre is character building.
In every RPG I've played from pen and paper AD&D to SSI to MUDs to Square to Bioware and so on involved a character who developed a story based on a variety of factors including the traits of the race and class selected. I haven't recorded any of these stories nor have I ever shared them with anyone; I don't RP. I remember dozens very clearly and they are fun to recall. This is central to how I enjoy games like this.
The same is true for all of my ESO characters at some level; especially my Dunmer characters.
All of this is outside of playstyle considerations, especially for Dunmer with flame damage and Bosmer Thieves and Assassins.
Lord_Dexter wrote: »You do not represent an entire community,
I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.
Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.
I am fine with Bosmer changes!
Lord_Dexter wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »You do not represent an entire community,
I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.
Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.
I am fine with Bosmer changes!
How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well
Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?
These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.
Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.
Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.
It's flat-out wrong to remove signature characteristics from a race in an RPG 5 years after launch unless it is blatantly OP or gamebreaking somehow. That is not the case with many of the racial changes.
ZOS could have narrowed the statistical differences between races, applied flat maximum resource bonuses and tweaked OP and UP races without significantly changing racial themes/identities as they did with Bosmer, Dunmer and Altmer.
This is where ZOS shows disregard for its players. People play RPGs for a multitude of reasons, but at the roots of the genre is character building.
In every RPG I've played from pen and paper AD&D to SSI to MUDs to Square to Bioware and so on involved a character who developed a story based on a variety of factors including the traits of the race and class selected. I haven't recorded any of these stories nor have I ever shared them with anyone; I don't RP. I remember dozens very clearly and they are fun to recall. This is central to how I enjoy games like this.
The same is true for all of my ESO characters at some level; especially my Dunmer characters.
All of this is outside of playstyle considerations, especially for Dunmer with flame damage and Bosmer Thieves and Assassins.
Yeah I think biggest issue was looking at numbers instead of other human factors.
If i could have any passive it would be the 10% movement speed. L2p.
Razorback174 wrote: »
Razorback174 wrote: »
Oh no, that will be terrible, you will have to actually avoid npc while sneaking to avoid detection. What a immersion kill, what a horrible change.
Bosmer will be better race than ever. and you still can sneak on bosmer and be fine. Exactly like other races. Absolutely fine you dont even notice.
Lord_Dexter wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »You do not represent an entire community,
I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.
Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.
I am fine with Bosmer changes!
How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well
Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?
These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.
Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.
Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.
We took away the knight’s ability to jump, something that has always existed, and made the knight piece move faster across the board when you do a barrel roll in your seat. Chess has never been more balanced.
It’s like you’re being deliberately obtuse.
If the Khajiit had lost the stealth bonus, too, I wouldn't mind, but why do they keep it and the Bosmer lose it? It's crap. And when you say it doesn't make any difference you clearly show you have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about.Razorback174 wrote: »
Exactly like other races.
Razorback174 wrote: »
Oh no, that will be terrible, you will have to actually avoid npc while sneaking to avoid detection. What a immersion kill, what a horrible change.
Bosmer will be better race than ever. and you still can sneak on bosmer and be fine. Exactly like other races. Absolutely fine you dont even notice.
Razorback174 wrote: »Razorback174 wrote: »
Oh no, that will be terrible, you will have to actually avoid npc while sneaking to avoid detection. What a immersion kill, what a horrible change.
Bosmer will be better race than ever. and you still can sneak on bosmer and be fine. Exactly like other races. Absolutely fine you dont even notice.
Yes, it is terrible, and the people that chose a race for that stealth bonus WILL notice the difference. This is an incredibly arrogant stance to take on the matter.
People aren't asking for damage, people aren't asking for regen, people aren't asking to be BiS. Hell, if they chose a Bosmer and stuck with it till now, they never cared about chasing the meta in the first place.
People are asking for a stealth passive, well-defined with decades of lore to back it up, to remain on their race. A race that has had said passive since 5 years ago when the game launched.
So can I ask how that affects you and your mindless DPS parses in any shape or form? Can I ask why it annoys you that people are asking to keep something that has no affect on your gameplay and does not influence the meta at all? Can I ask how that previous passive was somehow entirely ruining your whole experience?
ZOS said they planning to implement reduce detection into some other skill line.
Lorewise there's a bigger fish to fry imho - loss of disease resist bosmers had since morrowind bothers me more than sneak. And noone is adrresing that.