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Wood Elf Racial Changes -- ZOS, Please Stop Ignoring Your Community

  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    3% cost reduction for 'all the things.' Holy cow.

    They aren't content with just rubbing salt in the wound, are they?
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • MLGProPlayer
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    32205444207_242e8862a8_c.jpg

    Haha, sneaking while Imperial costs 3% less, I assume?

    Yeah. Kinda mind blowing when you think about it, right?

    FFS are you kidding me?

    I had the same reaction when this was pointed out to me.

    LOL if true. They are literally just trolling Bosmer players at this point.

    Can we sign a petition to get Wrobel back? This new lead is on a power trip.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 19, 2019 5:33PM
  • Crown
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    FFS are you kidding me?
    I had the same reaction when this was pointed out to me.

    Yeah.. welcome to what PvP players have said every patch since about 1.5.
    Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
    PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com
  • Integral1900
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    Well, by that logic, my hulking great nord will sneak up that dastardly metal git in asylum sanctorum 😎

    I might have to make an imperial nightblade “stealth tank” just for the hell of it 😂

    In all honesty I feel sorry for all those bowmen thieves, dodge roll looks dumb enough when your trying to avoid being flattened, imagine how daft it will look as part of a dps rotation 😰
  • Eiron77
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    Is this even TES anymore?

    I think I'm better off waiting 3-6 years for the next ACTUAL elder scrolls game to release.
  • Lord_Eomer
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    max_only wrote: »
    You do not represent an entire community,

    I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

    Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

    I am fine with Bosmer changes!

    How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
    When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well

    Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?

    These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.

    Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.

    Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.
  • Lord_Eomer
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    They seriously need to take out that weird penetration bonus!

    Its not bad on NB dodge rolling + cloaking!
  • BlueRaven
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    max_only wrote: »
    You do not represent an entire community,

    I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

    Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

    I am fine with Bosmer changes!

    How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
    When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well

    Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?

    These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.

    Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.

    Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.

    Stealth is used all over this game, stealth detect (And a small one at that) is used in subset of it.
    They seriously need to take out that weird penetration bonus!

    Its not bad on NB dodge rolling + cloaking!

    Not all Bosmers are night blades. Not all Bosmers participate in PvP. A racial that was used in many places of the game gets turned into a racial that can only be used in a subset of it.

    Racials CAN be designed to be useful in PvE and PvP. Stealth is useful in both. Stealth detect is not.
    Edited by BlueRaven on February 19, 2019 9:00PM
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    max_only wrote: »
    You do not represent an entire community,

    I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

    Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

    I am fine with Bosmer changes!

    How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
    When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well

    Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?

    These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.

    Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.

    Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.

    There are two substandard garbage overland sets, and I fail to see why I should be forced to downgrade to junk to keep what my race has always had in lore and previous games, not to mention the past 5 years. To get, what again? Oh, that's right -- a pathetic anti-lore skill that has an absolutely 0% chance of ever proc'ing outside of Cyrodiil or a battleground, and is pretty much next to useless even there.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • MLGProPlayer
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    max_only wrote: »
    You do not represent an entire community,

    I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

    Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

    I am fine with Bosmer changes!

    How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
    When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well

    Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?

    These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.

    Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.

    Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.

    Bosmer aren't doing great at all. They aren't competing with the top races for DPS and they lost a core part of their racial identity. There is literally nothing they are excelling at right now.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 19, 2019 9:46PM
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    max_only wrote: »
    You do not represent an entire community,

    I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

    Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

    I am fine with Bosmer changes!

    How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
    When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well

    Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?

    These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.

    Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.

    Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.

    Bosmer aren't doing great at all. They aren't competing with the top races for DPS and they lost a core part of their racial identity. There is literally nothing they are excelling at right now.

    I hate to do this, but excluding Hunter's Blech the Bosmer changes are actually ok, I think, aside maybe from the poison vs disease bit (which is lore-breaking as well, though to a lesser extent). They may still be behind when the numbers are crunched, but they aren't as far behind. I think the abacus-click-clackers worked out that Bosmer and Redguard are pretty even now, with sustain being the main issue dividing them, and that's an improvement from before where Bosmer were what was left after scraping the bottom of the stamina barrel.

    My problem is that the unmitigated disastrous crap-fest that is Hunter's Eye overshadows the rest since it does, as you correctly note, strike directly at the core of what a Bosmer is.
    Edited by Cundu_Ertur on February 19, 2019 10:30PM
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    This is (probably) my last effort to try to get ZOS to open their eyes and see the community's feedback regarding Bosmer race changes before they go live. I'm doing my best to write about this objectively (I play multiple races in multiple roles), and with as much logic and reasoning as possible, regarding both balance and lore.

    1) Roll Dodge Speed Boost Doesn't Make Sense
    Bosmer are agile, meaning that their roll dodge should not cause them to move at a faster top speed than other races after they perform a roll dodge because that's not how agility works. Agility is performing quick moves, like roll dodge, more easily and more gracefully. Giving Bosmer a cost reduction for roll dodge makes much more sense than granting them a random bonus to their top speed after they perform a roll dodge.

    2) Weird, Conditional Penetration Bonus
    In the PTS Notes v4.3.2 developer comments you stated that you didn't want to add more passive power to Bosmer. That's fine, but the conditional penetration bonus after a roll dodge is just weird in how it fits into the game. Why not follow the suggestion above, and remove the bonus to move speed (which has already proved to cause PVP concern) in favor of reduced cost for dodge roll (which makes more sense) and then implement a flat penetration bonus that is active at all times? You would be taking some power away (move speed) and adding a little power elsewhere (flat penetration bonus). If there would be balance issues with a flat bonus, then consider reducing the total amount of penetration that the flat bonus gives -- it doesn't have to be as high as the 1500 penetration that is currently tied to Hunter's Eye dodge roll.

    3) Stealth Removal and Your Consistent Silence
    By removing stealth bonuses you are flat out ignoring the stealth aspect of Bosmer lore. Rite of Theft, sneaky hunters, and even one of the Bosmeri culture's most famous and renowned poems (Meh Ayleidion, which means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding") all speak to Bosmeri reliance on stealth. We get why you removed their stealth bonuses -- you want each class to feel different and decided to go with Khajiit for sneak bonuses -- but in doing that you are ignoring lore and upsetting some of your players who built their characters around the fact that Wood Elves have had sneak bonuses. You are choosing to remain steadfast in your position to maintain lore inaccuracy and the racial dismantling of builds that were specifically built around a lore-inspired theme and play style.

    Please, concerning all of the above, check your pride (I know it doesn't feel good to be told that what you are doing isn't great, or that it doesn't make sense) in favor of logic and reason as it relates to balance and lore.

    Yeah they ignore the frost community too. Ive sent 2, 3500+ word letters to them. with all of the frost community's concerns and problems along with a few solid suggestions we knew people liked and wanted. The first was 7 months ago when i didn't have as much knowledge and no-one behind me and the second was just this last month where i used quotes from our members and gave a more detailed explanation of our problems even getting some of it proofread. We may see some positive changes in Elsweyr but i don't know if they will take on board our problems and/or solutions. It's better to write something and have a chance of it being read than it is to say nothing at all.

    (Fyi, We also adressed how snares/soft cc are too strong, but the only thing keeping frost alive at the current moment)
    Edited by ESO_Nightingale on February 19, 2019 11:06PM
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Tasear
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    zyk wrote: »
    It's flat-out wrong to remove signature characteristics from a race in an RPG 5 years after launch unless it is blatantly OP or gamebreaking somehow. That is not the case with many of the racial changes.

    ZOS could have narrowed the statistical differences between races, applied flat maximum resource bonuses and tweaked OP and UP races without significantly changing racial themes/identities as they did with Bosmer, Dunmer and Altmer.

    This is where ZOS shows disregard for its players. People play RPGs for a multitude of reasons, but at the roots of the genre is character building.

    In every RPG I've played from pen and paper AD&D to SSI to MUDs to Square to Bioware and so on involved a character who developed a story based on a variety of factors including the traits of the race and class selected. I haven't recorded any of these stories nor have I ever shared them with anyone; I don't RP. I remember dozens very clearly and they are fun to recall. This is central to how I enjoy games like this.

    The same is true for all of my ESO characters at some level; especially my Dunmer characters.

    All of this is outside of playstyle considerations, especially for Dunmer with flame damage and Bosmer Thieves and Assassins.

    Yeah I think biggest issue was looking at numbers instead of other human factors.
  • Tasear
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    You do not represent an entire community,

    I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

    Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

    I am fine with Bosmer changes!

    You didn't read any of this thread did you? You just assume because people like it they want to be op but that isn't case with bosmer.
  • max_only
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    max_only wrote: »
    You do not represent an entire community,

    I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

    Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

    I am fine with Bosmer changes!

    How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
    When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well

    Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?

    These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.

    Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.

    Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.

    c94jko4b6khn.jpeg

    We took away the knight’s ability to jump, something that has always existed, and made the knight piece move faster across the board when you do a barrel roll in your seat. Chess has never been more balanced.

    It’s like you’re being deliberately obtuse.
    Edited by max_only on February 19, 2019 11:19PM
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • GrumpyDuckling
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    Tasear wrote: »
    zyk wrote: »
    It's flat-out wrong to remove signature characteristics from a race in an RPG 5 years after launch unless it is blatantly OP or gamebreaking somehow. That is not the case with many of the racial changes.

    ZOS could have narrowed the statistical differences between races, applied flat maximum resource bonuses and tweaked OP and UP races without significantly changing racial themes/identities as they did with Bosmer, Dunmer and Altmer.

    This is where ZOS shows disregard for its players. People play RPGs for a multitude of reasons, but at the roots of the genre is character building.

    In every RPG I've played from pen and paper AD&D to SSI to MUDs to Square to Bioware and so on involved a character who developed a story based on a variety of factors including the traits of the race and class selected. I haven't recorded any of these stories nor have I ever shared them with anyone; I don't RP. I remember dozens very clearly and they are fun to recall. This is central to how I enjoy games like this.

    The same is true for all of my ESO characters at some level; especially my Dunmer characters.

    All of this is outside of playstyle considerations, especially for Dunmer with flame damage and Bosmer Thieves and Assassins.

    Yeah I think biggest issue was looking at numbers instead of other human factors.

    I would like to see this as a priority list for racial passives:
    1) Lore
    2) Logic
    3) Numbers (without breaking lore or subverting logic)
  • ab_bo
    ab_bo
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    If i could have any passive it would be the 10% movement speed. L2p.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    ab_bo wrote: »
    If i could have any passive it would be the 10% movement speed. L2p.

    And no-one is talking about taking that away, L2R.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  •  Czirne
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    bosmer will be better in next patch, stop these qq threads.
    I believe in lagless Cyrodiil!
  • Razorback174
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    Czirne wrote: »
    bosmer will be better in next patch, stop these qq threads.

    Just, you know, not for stealth.
  •  Czirne
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    Czirne wrote: »
    bosmer will be better in next patch, stop these qq threads.

    Just, you know, not for stealth.

    Oh no, that will be terrible, you will have to actually avoid npc while sneaking to avoid detection. What a immersion kill, what a horrible change.

    Bosmer will be better race than ever. and you still can sneak on bosmer and be fine. Exactly like other races. Absolutely fine you dont even notice.
    I believe in lagless Cyrodiil!
  • Alucardmike
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    Czirne wrote: »
    Czirne wrote: »
    bosmer will be better in next patch, stop these qq threads.

    Just, you know, not for stealth.

    Oh no, that will be terrible, you will have to actually avoid npc while sneaking to avoid detection. What a immersion kill, what a horrible change.

    Bosmer will be better race than ever. and you still can sneak on bosmer and be fine. Exactly like other races. Absolutely fine you dont even notice.

    Oh... I will notice. I am sneaking a lot and I am now nearly invisible. After the update I am not.

    I tested the stealth with the bonus and without.
    There are lot of spots, which only could be passed with 5m stealth bonus.
    The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.
  •  Czirne
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    max_only wrote: »
    max_only wrote: »
    You do not represent an entire community,

    I do not agree with you and fine with current racial changes. Races should not be Over Performing.

    Everyone want their favourite race to perform all roles and outshines others which is clearly a wrong way and ZOS is currently doing fine and racial passives are pretty much balanced.

    I am fine with Bosmer changes!

    How is a 3m sneak bonus over performing? Khajiit still have that.
    When did we ask to shine in all roles? Khajiits are now a magicka race as well

    Oh, I bet you think the 10% damage bonus to sneak was OP and that is what we want back. Where do you see that?

    These sweeping generic statements in your post point to you not knowing what is being discussed.

    Bosmer will be doing great, 2k Stamina and massive Stam Regen is keeping them on top.

    Stealth radius is easier to gain, medium armour gives + many other sets. I doubt its even an excuse to complaint for.

    c94jko4b6khn.jpeg

    We took away the knight’s ability to jump, something that has always existed, and made the knight piece move faster across the board when you do a barrel roll in your seat. Chess has never been more balanced.

    It’s like you’re being deliberately obtuse.

    completely out of place parable.

    I was always wondering why zos does not listen to community more. I stopped wondering after spending some time on forums past few weeks. Its good thing they dont listen to community, if these kind of post are the post are the best feedback community can provide.
    I believe in lagless Cyrodiil!
  • anadandy
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    Czirne wrote: »
    Its good thing they dont listen to community, if these kind of post are the post are the best feedback community can provide.

    giphy.gif

    (like all your comments)
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Czirne wrote: »
    Czirne wrote: »
    bosmer will be better in next patch, stop these qq threads.

    Just, you know, not for stealth.

    Exactly like other races.
    If the Khajiit had lost the stealth bonus, too, I wouldn't mind, but why do they keep it and the Bosmer lose it? It's crap. And when you say it doesn't make any difference you clearly show you have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

    edit to add: I would mind, on second thought, but I wouldn't be quite as pissed off about it.
    Edited by Cundu_Ertur on February 23, 2019 4:35PM
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Razorback174
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    Czirne wrote: »
    Czirne wrote: »
    bosmer will be better in next patch, stop these qq threads.

    Just, you know, not for stealth.

    Oh no, that will be terrible, you will have to actually avoid npc while sneaking to avoid detection. What a immersion kill, what a horrible change.

    Bosmer will be better race than ever. and you still can sneak on bosmer and be fine. Exactly like other races. Absolutely fine you dont even notice.

    Yes, it is terrible, and the people that chose a race for that stealth bonus WILL notice the difference. This is an incredibly arrogant stance to take on the matter.

    People aren't asking for damage, people aren't asking for regen, people aren't asking to be BiS. Hell, if they chose a Bosmer and stuck with it till now, they never cared about chasing the meta in the first place.

    People are asking for a stealth passive, well-defined with decades of lore to back it up, to remain on their race. A race that has had said passive since 5 years ago when the game launched.

    So can I ask how that affects you and your mindless DPS parses in any shape or form? Can I ask why it annoys you that people are asking to keep something that has no affect on your gameplay and does not influence the meta at all? Can I ask how that previous passive was somehow entirely ruining your whole experience?
  •  Czirne
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    Czirne wrote: »
    Czirne wrote: »
    bosmer will be better in next patch, stop these qq threads.

    Just, you know, not for stealth.

    Oh no, that will be terrible, you will have to actually avoid npc while sneaking to avoid detection. What a immersion kill, what a horrible change.

    Bosmer will be better race than ever. and you still can sneak on bosmer and be fine. Exactly like other races. Absolutely fine you dont even notice.

    Yes, it is terrible, and the people that chose a race for that stealth bonus WILL notice the difference. This is an incredibly arrogant stance to take on the matter.

    People aren't asking for damage, people aren't asking for regen, people aren't asking to be BiS. Hell, if they chose a Bosmer and stuck with it till now, they never cared about chasing the meta in the first place.

    People are asking for a stealth passive, well-defined with decades of lore to back it up, to remain on their race. A race that has had said passive since 5 years ago when the game launched.

    So can I ask how that affects you and your mindless DPS parses in any shape or form? Can I ask why it annoys you that people are asking to keep something that has no affect on your gameplay and does not influence the meta at all? Can I ask how that previous passive was somehow entirely ruining your whole experience?

    You know what? you're right. What buffles me is the fact people act like bosmer is done, but in reality its not. Bosmer will be actually better that ever before. But if the sneak passive loss is such a big deal - well, good luck to all of you, worst case scenario y'all have to wait till next update. ZOS said they planning to implement reduce detection into some other skill line.

    Lorewise there's a bigger fish to fry imho - loss of disease resist bosmers had since morrowind bothers me more than sneak. And noone is adrresing that.
    I believe in lagless Cyrodiil!
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    You can ask but you'll just get more griefing. Trolls gonna troll.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Razorback174
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    Czirne wrote: »
    ZOS said they planning to implement reduce detection into some other skill line.

    The question is: Do you actually believe them? Because, given past events, I most certainly don't. I'm sure that's in the works just behind spellcrafting.

    Because if ZoS allows Khajiit to keep that exact same passive, this is an outright lie. If they were truly going to remove it from racials and did have some special "new system" in the works, Khajiit would have lost it this pass as well.

    This is nothing more than a load of PR nonsense they're trying to use to calm people down while they take a sledgehammer to the lore. The "wait and see" mentality they're trying to push there will certainly help them cover their collective *** in that regard.
    Czirne wrote: »
    Lorewise there's a bigger fish to fry imho - loss of disease resist bosmers had since morrowind bothers me more than sneak. And noone is adrresing that.

    And I can understand where you're coming from on this one. But you know what? No one is actively advocating against it either, unlike the stealth passive. Personally, I could care less about the disease resist. BUT, I can tell that some are upset over it, and I'm not going to tell them "stop whining" just because it has no effect on my particular gameplay.

    There's a word for that. It's called empathy.
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    I know I've said that per the lore Argonians should have poison and disease resistance with poison effect immunity while Bosmer should have disease resist with diseased affect immunity like a dozen times. The difference is that the Meh Ayleidion is not about the thousand uses of not getting sick. There is no Bosmer Rite of Vaccination. Stealth is an essential part of Bosmeri culture, resistances are not.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
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