AgaTheGreat wrote: »You want to "fix" all of the so called pain points by re-introducing power creep?
The problem is that people don't have what it takes to get better. Why do you think top guilds are like that? They put time and effort into all their runs. They run with the same group a few times a week.
It's not ZoS' fault that there aren't many guilds that offer training. You can't expect an end game raiding guild to teach you craglorn hard modes, you have to learn it with a different team. The only way to get better is to go through the "guild" ladder and actually work on your characters. The problem on PS4 EU for example is that there are very few guilds who actually put time and effort into training new to end game people. It's a huge commitment that is draining the guild leaders because many feel like their guild is stepping stone into a better team (in most cases it's true)
Don't blame the game, blame to community.
No. I want to fix a large part of the problem by CAPPING DPS to 50k while allowing continued Power Creep for the Middle and Lower Tiered players. Those, who who cannot take advantage of animation cancelling or effectively attack weave due to the horrendous server performance. Thus, preventing the ceiling from rising any further while allowing the lower floors to slowly rise to near that level.
Yes. It is ZOS' fault players are not properly prepared for end game content. Anmation cancelling is not taught in ESO because it's a BUG, not an actual true intended feature of the game; nor is there proper training for attack weaving. Players have to go outside of the game, to Youtube or other places to get this information.
This topic thread here, actually greatly shows the majority of issues a large portion of the player base has with Animation cancelling and attack weaving in the game.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458856/does-anyone-else-have-issue-with-light-attack-weaving-on-a-technical-level/p1
Additionally, the level difference between Normal and Veteran and some Hard Mode Dungeons and Trials is the difference between Day and Night. Many players find Normal too easy, but find Veteran mind numbingly hard, and worst of all, Not Fun.
There aren't proper stepping stones to Progression.
This is why I'm also suggesting ZOS makes a third tier of difficulty between Normal and Vet that will help to properly train players the mechanics of the dungeon. Perhaps they could even put in an option tutorial within it, and players could specify which boss they want to learn at that time. This would allow them to learn and prepare for the next level progression.
We can't make normal dungeons harder, because that locks the lowest tiered players out of content.
What's the point of creating these dungeons and trials when 95% of players don't want to play them?? The goal, at end game is getting more and more players into the content. Not cutting them out of it and in order for that to happen, ZOS has to completely stop the difficulty ceiling from rising any further, and allow these players to progress.
Unfortunately, for the last 2 years, while ZOS was trying to lower the ceiling and raise the floor, all they did was raise the ceiling and create an even wider gap between that and the Middle Tiered players.
By trying to Nerf what the Elite End game players use, and how they play, all they ended up doing was nerfing the Middle Tiered players the most.
ZOS should also not be releasing content or armour designed around end game Elite players, Youtuber and Twitch streamers, and their ability to animation cancel/light attack weave. Just because the 1% can pull 50k+ dps, doesn't mean the 50% of Middle Tier players can.
Look, if I had the technical know-how, I'd actually create a Add-on that would allow you to put your rotation in and then allow that to play through where you had to match the rotation as it game up on the screen. Think, Legends of Dragoon style game play, having to press the button at the right time the square came up on the screen. And then allow, as you get more comfortable with the parse, to make the rotation faster, until you eventually hit those numbers, either throught getting quicker clicking the buttons, or through the change up within your rotation.
Problem is; I don't know how to make one of those.... and second... Someone should have to. Mechanics and game play should be fairly intuitive, but they aren't in this game. Part of it is due to ZOS not including proper tutorials where it's needed, and taking advantage of bugs to increase difficulty where they shouldn't. A large part is also due to a good majority of the player base of this game coming from the single player Elder Scrolls games. Not, from another MMO. The learning curve from the ES games to playing an ESO MMO is actually rather high, it's confusing and a lot of people can't wrap their heads around it.
Most Middle Tiered players have made that transition. They have the baseline of the skills, but can't take advantage of rotations requiring the use of a systematic bug to increase their DPS properly, even though some will get a good rotation learned. hitting between 30-35k is extremely hard. Add unforgiving mechanics in new Vet Dungeons and Trials, where these players go to progress and get better, and you end up with players having less and less fun, getting frustrated, hating the content, and eventually leaving. Taking longer and longer breaks.
You actually want content, where the Middle Tiered player can complete it... and then they want to go back and switch out one or two of their Core team players from time to time and bring in someone who maybe can't get 25-30k DPS through runs with them, to train them in the mechanics, so they get better, feel accomplished, and feel included. So these players can gain the confidence they need to keep pushing themselves to get better.
What you don't want, is high end players taking advantage of others and selling runs for 2+million gold on an increasing basis.
And now we are at a point, where ZOS has decided that once you reach 810CP for the foreseeable future (at least the next year) they are not allowing this to increase at all. Therefore freezing any progression (even if it was only 0.5-1%) these players might have received, that might have pushed them to keep trying. No Progression in Power = No Motiivation to condtinue to do the content.
Example: Why buy the new Chapter, when you won't get the benefit of the power creep that comes with more XP earned? Some say progressing the story itsself will be enough.. but... I don't have to buy the Chapter to do that. I can watch a streamer go through that for me, and I still get the story. I'm not going to waste that XP seeing as we don't even know what ZOS is going to do to fix this issue. I don't think ZOS even knows.
But, through threads like this... ZOS can at least take the time to read players concerns, and get a few ideas on what can be done to alleviate the glaring issue of the different skill levels in this game, so they can find a way to lessen this gap. It also lets them know there are serious pain points in other areas they may not have considered that need addressing that are faced by these players.
AgaTheGreat wrote: »I'm sorry, but life is not fair. Why should you be able to do vcr +3 if you're struggling to pull 30k + self buffed? Everyone is capable of high dps, there are countless build videos, people actually teaching rotations step by step. You can google animation cancelling, weaving and everything related to dps. If you're not prepared to practice, you're not prepared for veteran content. The game doesn't force you to do hard stuff but if you want to just work for it instead of typing an essay that won't change anything.
It just reminds me of myself a year and a half ago when I didn't know better. But it took time, research and practice to overcome that barrier. If you're unwilling to work for it you shouldn't complain.
As one smart man once said: "Just do it!"
AgaTheGreat wrote: »I'm sorry, but life is not fair. Why should you be able to do vcr +3 if you're struggling to pull 30k + self buffed? Everyone is capable of high dps, there are countless build videos, people actually teaching rotations step by step. You can google animation cancelling, weaving and everything related to dps. If you're not prepared to practice, you're not prepared for veteran content. The game doesn't force you to do hard stuff but if you want to just work for it instead of typing an essay that won't change anything.
It just reminds me of myself a year and a half ago when I didn't know better. But it took time, research and practice to overcome that barrier. If you're unwilling to work for it you shouldn't complain.
As one smart man once said: "Just do it!"
RavenSworn wrote: »Putting some thoughts out for the op.
1) there is simply no advantage going for either super hardcore or super casual in an mmo. It is always, almost always content that can cater to both.
2) hardcore or casual really depends on the type of player you are. You might be casual in time taken but the effort taken might be herculean. Which means you squeeze out every second you are online ingame. You might also be a beta monkey, but you take your time clearing content. You might be also be spending hundreds and thousands of dollars in game but spending the least amount of time or effort in it too.
3) it just means that the player base is too diverse to effectively gate content or peg players to the right content. A big cp number does not equate to a better player. Nor do time played or achievements gained. There are certain stuff that can show signs of skill eg flawless titles or skins but ultimately, a new character in the hands of a veteran will definitely be better than a new player throughout.
4) dps numbers don't mean anything if there isn't any teamwork in the first place. What's the use of having great dps without a tank taking the hits? Healers to dish out healing? All of the dungeons, and I do mean all, can be done with great teamwork, not just great numbers.
5) difficulty is hard to balance in this game because it is gated content. 1Tamriel made it so there isn't any gated content (overland at least) and that skews alot of players perspectives for dungeon content.
6) The difficulty difference between a dlc dungeon and a base dungeon is significant, it's worse when either are veteran. But players themselves make it harder than it already is. Again, it's not just about dps numbers. It's about teamwork. It's about pulling your weight with role given upon you.
Here's the rub though. You don't need 50, 60 or 70k to finish up a dlc dungeon. It's better but again, see 4).
Middle tiered players aren't stopped at any place of the game. It's not about not being able to make it to the next level. It's about ZoS not being clear with that gated content because of the sheer amount of un-gated ones. How do you explain dlc zones with different difficulty dlc dungeons? There's just not much information ingame to explain all that and it was left to the hands of the players. Therein lies the issue here. The player base are too diverse, the player scope encompasses too many things for it to be left to them.
@VaranisArano gets it.VaranisArano wrote: »AgaTheGreat wrote: »You want to "fix" all of the so called pain points by re-introducing power creep?
The problem is that people don't have what it takes to get better. Why do you think top guilds are like that? They put time and effort into all their runs. They run with the same group a few times a week.
It's not ZoS' fault that there aren't many guilds that offer training. You can't expect an end game raiding guild to teach you craglorn hard modes, you have to learn it with a different team. The only way to get better is to go through the "guild" ladder and actually work on your characters. The problem on PS4 EU for example is that there are very few guilds who actually put time and effort into training new to end game people. It's a huge commitment that is draining the guild leaders because many feel like their guild is stepping stone into a better team (in most cases it's true)
Don't blame the game, blame to community.
Can we also blame the game that doesn't teach players how to do proper DPS beyond what's required for overland questing?
ESO utterly fails to teach players how to actually perform at the level required for end-game content. You need guilds and streamers and build-makers for that. The game itself will not prepare you.
One of the points made in the OP's post is that the very progression guilds you are pointing to are struggling with bashing their heads in against the new content with its stacked mechanics and low margins for error.
That's something I pointed out earlier this thread - the DPS/experience gap. Some guilds are able to complete the content, and so repeated completions become easier due to experience even if ZOS nerfs their skill/class/gear. Some guilds/players are struggling to complete already, so when ZOS nerfs class/gear/skills, they dont have experience to fall back on and suffer more than the top tier.
So we actually can blame the game. ESO doesnt prepare players well, which puts the burden on guilds. Then, progression guilds are exactly who suffers the most from the constant rounds of nerfs and major gameplay changes that the Devs roll out with every update because they don't have the top tier's experience of completions to fall back on. As end game content continues to build into stacked mechanics and low margins for error, the situation gets worse (and anecdotally, less fun) for guilds and their members.
Its easy to say people don't have what it takes to get better.
The point of what's being discussed here is that the design of new content and the nerfs/gameplay changes aimed at the top tier players is making it disproportionately harder on the middle tier of players who are trying to get better because they suffer more than the top tier who can already complete the content.
The contention is that ZOS has created a gap between the high tier and middle tier of players, and that by continuing to develop endgame content featuring stacked mechanics and punishing margins for error which benefit those who have completion experience, they are widening that gap.
I'm not sure that DPS caps and power creep are the answer, but I don't have an answer to the situation.
VaranisArano wrote: »RavenSworn wrote: »Putting some thoughts out for the op.
1) there is simply no advantage going for either super hardcore or super casual in an mmo. It is always, almost always content that can cater to both.
2) hardcore or casual really depends on the type of player you are. You might be casual in time taken but the effort taken might be herculean. Which means you squeeze out every second you are online ingame. You might also be a beta monkey, but you take your time clearing content. You might be also be spending hundreds and thousands of dollars in game but spending the least amount of time or effort in it too.
3) it just means that the player base is too diverse to effectively gate content or peg players to the right content. A big cp number does not equate to a better player. Nor do time played or achievements gained. There are certain stuff that can show signs of skill eg flawless titles or skins but ultimately, a new character in the hands of a veteran will definitely be better than a new player throughout.
4) dps numbers don't mean anything if there isn't any teamwork in the first place. What's the use of having great dps without a tank taking the hits? Healers to dish out healing? All of the dungeons, and I do mean all, can be done with great teamwork, not just great numbers.
5) difficulty is hard to balance in this game because it is gated content. 1Tamriel made it so there isn't any gated content (overland at least) and that skews alot of players perspectives for dungeon content.
6) The difficulty difference between a dlc dungeon and a base dungeon is significant, it's worse when either are veteran. But players themselves make it harder than it already is. Again, it's not just about dps numbers. It's about teamwork. It's about pulling your weight with role given upon you.
Here's the rub though. You don't need 50, 60 or 70k to finish up a dlc dungeon. It's better but again, see 4).
Middle tiered players aren't stopped at any place of the game. It's not about not being able to make it to the next level. It's about ZoS not being clear with that gated content because of the sheer amount of un-gated ones. How do you explain dlc zones with different difficulty dlc dungeons? There's just not much information ingame to explain all that and it was left to the hands of the players. Therein lies the issue here. The player base are too diverse, the player scope encompasses too many things for it to be left to them.
Bolded the parts I want to speak to.
Teamwork is absolutely important and necessary. As you say, DPS isn't the whole story. It takes a team.
However, high DPS makes ESO' content a lot easier. It makes mechanic-heavy boss fights more forgiving. When a mistake in a fight can cause a group wipe, high DPS means the fight goes faster and there's less pressure on the team overall.
This is why we've been seeing DPS requirements creep upwards. The more punishing the stacked mechanics get and the lower the margins for error get in the DLC dungeons and the new trials, the more DPS people want in the group because it makes the run easier.
Definitely, tanks and healers have to be on top of their role. But consider the difference in the experience of a tank and healer with different levels of DPS. With high DPS relative to the content requirement, they have to do their job. With DPS that's barely sufficient to pass the content, they have to do their job...for a much longer time. The more punishing the mechanics and lower margins of error, the more spot-on the tank and the healer have to be, and the lower the DPS, the longer everyone in the group has to go without making a mistake. We see this with Vet Dungeons a lot, as many tanks dislike being paired with low DPS groups and Vet DLC dungeons have the reputation of being unPUGable due to a combination of low DPS and high teamwork requirements.
The longer the fight goes on, the more likely it is that someone is going to make a mistake. The newer, harder content is very punishing when someone makes a mistake. High DPS just makes most runs easier because it puts less pressure on the team to have pitch-perfect teamwork. Whereas DPS that is just sufficient to clear the content means that the teamwork requirement is much higher, and on the newer content, can get pretty grueling over a long fight.
So when we say that the newer, harder content is being gated off, the "gate" isn't about level of playstyle. The "gate" is of two types.
1. Can you do enough DPS to get invited to a group to do the content?
2. Can your group execute the mechanics well enough to complete the content?
In both cases, ZOS' continued direction of development towards stacking mechanics and low margins of error is making both of those gates harder to clear. Because high DPS makes the newer content easier to clear and even sufficient DPS puts more pressure on the group's teamwork, #1 is steadily creeping upwards. The de jure required DPS to clear the content hasn't changed, but the de facto expectation is for high DPS. That's because of #2, where high DPS makes it easier to execute the mechanics because you have to do them less times and there are less chances at making punishing mistakes.
RavenSworn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »RavenSworn wrote: »Putting some thoughts out for the op.
1) there is simply no advantage going for either super hardcore or super casual in an mmo. It is always, almost always content that can cater to both.
2) hardcore or casual really depends on the type of player you are. You might be casual in time taken but the effort taken might be herculean. Which means you squeeze out every second you are online ingame. You might also be a beta monkey, but you take your time clearing content. You might be also be spending hundreds and thousands of dollars in game but spending the least amount of time or effort in it too.
3) it just means that the player base is too diverse to effectively gate content or peg players to the right content. A big cp number does not equate to a better player. Nor do time played or achievements gained. There are certain stuff that can show signs of skill eg flawless titles or skins but ultimately, a new character in the hands of a veteran will definitely be better than a new player throughout.
4) dps numbers don't mean anything if there isn't any teamwork in the first place. What's the use of having great dps without a tank taking the hits? Healers to dish out healing? All of the dungeons, and I do mean all, can be done with great teamwork, not just great numbers.
5) difficulty is hard to balance in this game because it is gated content. 1Tamriel made it so there isn't any gated content (overland at least) and that skews alot of players perspectives for dungeon content.
6) The difficulty difference between a dlc dungeon and a base dungeon is significant, it's worse when either are veteran. But players themselves make it harder than it already is. Again, it's not just about dps numbers. It's about teamwork. It's about pulling your weight with role given upon you.
Here's the rub though. You don't need 50, 60 or 70k to finish up a dlc dungeon. It's better but again, see 4).
Middle tiered players aren't stopped at any place of the game. It's not about not being able to make it to the next level. It's about ZoS not being clear with that gated content because of the sheer amount of un-gated ones. How do you explain dlc zones with different difficulty dlc dungeons? There's just not much information ingame to explain all that and it was left to the hands of the players. Therein lies the issue here. The player base are too diverse, the player scope encompasses too many things for it to be left to them.
Bolded the parts I want to speak to.
Teamwork is absolutely important and necessary. As you say, DPS isn't the whole story. It takes a team.
However, high DPS makes ESO' content a lot easier. It makes mechanic-heavy boss fights more forgiving. When a mistake in a fight can cause a group wipe, high DPS means the fight goes faster and there's less pressure on the team overall.
This is why we've been seeing DPS requirements creep upwards. The more punishing the stacked mechanics get and the lower the margins for error get in the DLC dungeons and the new trials, the more DPS people want in the group because it makes the run easier.
Definitely, tanks and healers have to be on top of their role. But consider the difference in the experience of a tank and healer with different levels of DPS. With high DPS relative to the content requirement, they have to do their job. With DPS that's barely sufficient to pass the content, they have to do their job...for a much longer time. The more punishing the mechanics and lower margins of error, the more spot-on the tank and the healer have to be, and the lower the DPS, the longer everyone in the group has to go without making a mistake. We see this with Vet Dungeons a lot, as many tanks dislike being paired with low DPS groups and Vet DLC dungeons have the reputation of being unPUGable due to a combination of low DPS and high teamwork requirements.
The longer the fight goes on, the more likely it is that someone is going to make a mistake. The newer, harder content is very punishing when someone makes a mistake. High DPS just makes most runs easier because it puts less pressure on the team to have pitch-perfect teamwork. Whereas DPS that is just sufficient to clear the content means that the teamwork requirement is much higher, and on the newer content, can get pretty grueling over a long fight.
So when we say that the newer, harder content is being gated off, the "gate" isn't about level of playstyle. The "gate" is of two types.
1. Can you do enough DPS to get invited to a group to do the content?
2. Can your group execute the mechanics well enough to complete the content?
In both cases, ZOS' continued direction of development towards stacking mechanics and low margins of error is making both of those gates harder to clear. Because high DPS makes the newer content easier to clear and even sufficient DPS puts more pressure on the group's teamwork, #1 is steadily creeping upwards. The de jure required DPS to clear the content hasn't changed, but the de facto expectation is for high DPS. That's because of #2, where high DPS makes it easier to execute the mechanics because you have to do them less times and there are less chances at making punishing mistakes.
Which shouldn't happen in the first place. High dps should be optional, not a requirement. The team should be able to work together, it is a four man dungeon with different roles, not a four man one role dungeon.
When content gets trivialised... It gets boring. Players start asking for more content because the initial one gets done too fast. On the other hand, regular players, players with limited bandwidth, with limited mobility, with slower reactions are pushed out of the dungeon scene.
Players then start making arbitrary numbers to justify entry just because they have this sense of entitlement for cp levels. "kick if below 300cp" "kick if not above 800" "looking for only max cp players". It's a skewed perspective for sure.
Those numbers indicate only time taken, not the actual player skills.
But I digress.
The issue at hand is power atrophy, which I'm laughably pointing out that dps numbers are getting higher. The sense of progression isn't lost, it's merely switched to content, rather than player levels.
The actual progression differs greatly from other mmos. It's normal base dungeons - vet base dungeons - normal trials - normal dlc dungeons - vet dlc dungeons - vet trials. How many of us actually do it this way? Is there even an official list stating so?