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Raid/Buffed DPS Test [Each Class/Each DD Race] PTS 4.3.3
-
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Because they do more damage than Breton.
But they don't?
Altmer have higher DPS on every class except Dragonknights. Can't ignore the facts in the original post bud.
Again, they don't.
They have higher average DPS in 2/4 classes. And neither of those are statistically significant differences.
3/4
DK: Breton > Altmer
NB: Breton < Altmer
Sorc: Breton < Altmer
Temp: Breton = Altmer
I didn't think basic counting was that tough.
Really 62064=62058?
You're really that dense? Why even comment further? Clearly you don't want to have logical discussion.1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Because they do more damage than Breton.
But they don't?
Altmer have higher DPS on every class except Dragonknights. Can't ignore the facts in the original post bud.
Again, they don't.
They have higher average DPS in 2/4 classes. And neither of those are statistically significant differences.
3/4
DK: Breton > Altmer
NB: Breton < Altmer
Sorc: Breton < Altmer
Temp: Breton = Altmer
I didn't think basic counting was that tough.
Really 62064=62058?
Are you going to argue with a straight face that that is a "difference"?0 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Because they do more damage than Breton.
But they don't?
Altmer have higher DPS on every class except Dragonknights. Can't ignore the facts in the original post bud.
Again, they don't.
They have higher average DPS in 2/4 classes. And neither of those are statistically significant differences.
3/4
DK: Breton > Altmer
NB: Breton < Altmer
Sorc: Breton < Altmer
Temp: Breton = Altmer
I didn't think basic counting was that tough.
Really 62064=62058?
Are you going to argue with a straight face that that is a "difference"?
Ummmm... It IS a 0.01% difference...
Edited by CleymenZero on February 14, 2019 7:38PM4 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Because they do more damage than Breton.
But they don't?
Altmer have higher DPS on every class except Dragonknights. Can't ignore the facts in the original post bud.
Again, they don't.
They have higher average DPS in 2/4 classes. And neither of those are statistically significant differences.
3/4
DK: Breton > Altmer
NB: Breton < Altmer
Sorc: Breton < Altmer
Temp: Breton = Altmer
I didn't think basic counting was that tough.
Really 62064=62058?
Are you going to argue with a straight face that that is a "difference"?
Hey, a win's a win bud. You gotta take them where you can get them. Especially when you're a poor hybrid race, with useless passives, and the lowest Magicka DPS.1 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »So Altmer and Breton are virtually identical:
DK: +433 (0.7%)
NB: -449 (0.7%)
Sorc: -219 (0.36%)
Temp: -6 (0.001%)
It seems that variance in the data is greater than any real difference between them.
I can't see any scenario where Altmer would be the preferred race under those margins. Breton gives you virtually identical DPS in addition to superior sustain and survivability. Altmer need to have a bigger reason to pick them. It doesn't need to be more DPS, but something like more health or stronger shields.
Confirmation that there is no significant difference between the two samples:
That means Breton is the clear-cut BiS race for magicka DD as they get extra sustain at no DPS loss.
Actually it means nothing besides that Altmer and Breton are almost on par due to your insignificant differences. When on paper the differences are so tiny, they won't be bigger in a real scenario due to the ton of other variables that come into play and are not affected by racials - at all.
If DPS is the same and Breton has superior sustain, Breton is the better race.
This is only if you are claiming that the Breton is sustaining more while doing equal dps. If the Breton is giving up recoveries or other sustain sources and barely getting through parses, while the Altmer is investing in recoveries and other resources while barely sustaining parses, then they are equal. You actually need to see the parses from @susmitds to say whether one is actually sustaining better or not.
Having built in sustain =/= sustaining better while dealing the same damage.
You need to compare the choices skill wise and setup wise to determine whether one is sacrificing more or not.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..2 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Point being if I am able to hit harder but have to heavy attack to sustain, while my other build hits weaker but can hit more often, there is not some saved sustain there. The 'extra' sustain is being eaten up in order to make up the gap from weaker hits.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..1 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Because they do more damage than Breton.
But they don't?
Altmer have higher DPS on every class except Dragonknights. Can't ignore the facts in the original post bud.
Again, they don't.
They have higher average DPS in 2/4 classes. And neither of those are statistically significant differences.
3/4
DK: Breton > Altmer
NB: Breton < Altmer
Sorc: Breton < Altmer
Temp: Breton = Altmer
I didn't think basic counting was that tough.
Really 62064=62058?
You're really that dense? Why even comment further? Clearly you don't want to have logical discussion.
I'm just being as logical as every other discussion about this the past few weeks.2 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Because they do more damage than Breton.
But they don't?
Altmer have higher DPS on every class except Dragonknights. Can't ignore the facts in the original post bud.
Again, they don't.
They have higher average DPS in 2/4 classes. And neither of those are statistically significant differences.
3/4
DK: Breton > Altmer
NB: Breton < Altmer
Sorc: Breton < Altmer
Temp: Breton = Altmer
I didn't think basic counting was that tough.
Really 62064=62058?
You're really that dense? Why even comment further? Clearly you don't want to have logical discussion.
I'm just being as logical as every other discussion about this the past few weeks.
That’s exactly why I’ve stayed off the forums and given all my feedback to class reps on the Discords.1 -
IronWooshu✭✭✭✭✭
✭@susmitds you said Imperial regen is just behind that of Redguards and Bosmer but did you take into account there is no internal cooldown on the PTS as of now for their rank 3 bonus?
This is a must know when trying to justify changes to racials since ZOS apparently regards classes with sustain as a high set value yet proceed to still give Imperials 2k health and 2k stamina on top of 3% reduction in all abilities (magicka, stamina, ultimate skills)
It's insane, the 3% reduction cuts into Nords unique ultimate regeneration since they can get ultimates faster as well and cuts into Bretons reduction in magicka abilities leaving a 4% difference there as well as Redguards limited reduction in ONLY weapon skills (a 4% difference) all the while sustain near as good as Redguard and Bosmer with incredible flat stats for Stamina PVP.
Orc and Imperial are getting so much out of their kits now while Nord is subjected to an ultimate regeneration only good for solo PVE players who will be taking damage or a tank in a trial environment which will have that passive nullified if the off tank and healers arent Nords since he will have to wait to use his so the other non Nord races can catch up.
I suggested the Ultimate Gen should be while in combat to open up DPS, Heals options for Nord players. I also suggest they give Nord 2k Health to fit the hardy race and be a direct competitor to Imperial and Orc in PVP.
Redguard and Bosmer need more or something else than snare reduction and a limited penetration. In PVP snare reduction is useless because you are immediately going to break free by using stamina that this passive is rendered useless. No one who PVP's in their right mind is going to not break free so they can use their share reduction passive or they will be dead.
I think the idea with Bosmer is good but I think the penetration after dodging should last 10 seconds.
EDIT: I think they have done fairly well with the PVE DPS numbers but the PVP side and the bonuses to other races in other areas completely lack.Edited by IronWooshu on February 14, 2019 8:05PM1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »There is no reason to pick any race other than Breton in PvE right now. That's a problem.
I don't want to be rude but this problem exists solely in your (and a few others') head(s).
Then explain to me a single endgame scenario where it is advantageous to pick Altmer over Breton.
You said Altmer are better in trash fights. How many people have duplicates of their vMA or other set staves and can just carry 2 around (1 with a berserker glyph and 1 with an absorb glyph) to swap out between trash fights and boss fights?
Uhh ... I would say that just about everyone who has any reason to be concerned over the general 1-2% DPS difference between the top magicka races probably has multiples of all of their staves (and likely jewelry, too) for a variety of content. And if they don't, they should, because that's going to make a bigger DPS difference than choice of race.
At least two copies of some frontbar set staff (likely BSW or Spell Strat), one with an elemental glyph and one with a Prismatic. At least two copies of a Maelstrom staff, one with Berserker and one with Absorb. Ideally a completely different trash setup with a Lightning staff, ideally a BRP Lightning, Grothdarr, etc.
Same goes for stam. Hell, in vMoL HM I run 4 completely different gear/skill setups throughout the trial on stam. Trash, first boss, Twins, and Rakkhat all have different presets in AlphaGear. HoF is the same way. Typical sustained damage setups with long ramp-up times (like Rele + AY or Siroria) don't work on Archcustodian or even Triplets (these are good examples of places where burst damage is advantageous in PvE as well). Lots of groups swap to something like Leviathan + Veiled Heritance/Briarheart, or some other burst combo that's more effective for moving around a lot and switching targets, on these fights.Edited by LiquidPony on February 14, 2019 8:20PM8 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
That means Breton is the clear-cut BiS race for magicka DD as they get extra sustain at no DPS loss.
How so?
What I'm really asking is which aspects of sustain are and aren't accounted for in the testing protocols.1 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Did people read everything by OP?
Because people are going "Breton is only just behind but sustains better". But OP replaces an absorb glypg with a beserker to compensate.
So the way I understood it, the DPS parses are based on races having as close sustain as OP could get.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong - just the way I read it.
What isn't said that I could find is whether magicka and ultimate are trained over the course of the test, or whether they start and finish at similar levels.
In real life ultimate doesn't regen much* out of combat, while magicka and stamina do (but the regen could take a while).
*That weasel word is included because, for example, ultimate gain can continue for a few seconds after the boss dies.1 -
joaaocaampos✭✭✭✭✭@MLGProPlayer Seriously, I have read only your first comments, including in other discussions. And I even ignored the rest.
Enough!
ZOS finally balanced High Elves and Bretons.
If you think Bretons are superior now, I'm sorry! High Elves have always been superior to the Bretons.
By the way... How many Bretons do you have? How many High Elves do you have?
At most, I believe you have only one Breton, and many High Elves.
If 3 Race Change Tokens is not enough for you, I'm sorry again!
7 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Again, they don't.
They have higher average DPS in 2/4 classes. And neither of those are statistically significant differences
Higher average DPS = Higher DPS
Statistically insignificant = Top 3 is well balanced, still top on 4 classes
Those statistically insignificant numbers are the difference between a first and second place score.
Only if all twelve members hit their rotation perfectly with no interruptions or extremely minor miscues. If the numbers mattered as much as you are claiming those graphs would be almost straight lines going across. They bounce all over the place not because of stat differences but small rotation differences. I'm guessing by the DPS these tests were done by someone at the very top of the game. So the very top in the game has enough difference in their rotation to make the difference in stats insignificant.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »So Altmer and Breton are virtually identical:
DK: +433 (0.7%)
NB: -449 (0.7%)
Sorc: -219 (0.36%)
Temp: -6 (0.001%)
It seems that variance in the data is greater than any real difference between them.
I can't see any scenario where Altmer would be the preferred race under those margins. Breton gives you virtually identical DPS in addition to superior sustain and survivability. Altmer need to have a bigger reason to pick them. It doesn't need to be more DPS, but something like more health or stronger shields.
Confirmation that there is no significant difference between the two samples:
That means Breton is the clear-cut BiS race for magicka DD as they get extra sustain at no DPS loss.
Actually it means nothing besides that Altmer and Breton are almost on par due to your insignificant differences. When on paper the differences are so tiny, they won't be bigger in a real scenario due to the ton of other variables that come into play and are not affected by racials - at all.
If DPS is the same and Breton has superior sustain, Breton is the better race.
This is only if you are claiming that the Breton is sustaining more while doing equal dps. If the Breton is giving up recoveries or other sustain sources and barely getting through parses, while the Altmer is investing in recoveries and other resources while barely sustaining parses, then they are equal. You actually need to see the parses from @susmitds to say whether one is actually sustaining better or not.
Having built in sustain =/= sustaining better while dealing the same damage.
You need to compare the choices skill wise and setup wise to determine whether one is sacrificing more or not.
Altmer has less sustain than Breton even after building for sustain.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
That means Breton is the clear-cut BiS race for magicka DD as they get extra sustain at no DPS loss.
How so?
What I'm really asking is which aspects of sustain are and aren't accounted for in the testing protocols.
7% CDR + 100 magicka regen
vs.
Magicka absorb glyph0 -
ATreeGnome✭✭✭✭@susmitds Did you by any chance record drain / regen numbers along with these damage numbers? What you posted is spectacular but I'd love to compare average sustain numbers too!3 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »There is no reason to pick any race other than Breton in PvE right now. That's a problem.
I don't want to be rude but this problem exists solely in your (and a few others') head(s).
Then explain to me a single endgame scenario where it is advantageous to pick Altmer over Breton.
You said Altmer are better in trash fights. How many people have duplicates of their vMA or other set staves and can just carry 2 around (1 with a berserker glyph and 1 with an absorb glyph) to swap out between trash fights and boss fights?
Uhh ... I would say that just about everyone who has any reason to be concerned over the general 1-2% DPS difference between the top magicka races probably has multiples of all of their staves (and likely jewelry, too) for a variety of content. And if they don't, they should, because that's going to make a bigger DPS difference than choice of race.
At least two copies of some frontbar set staff (likely BSW or Spell Strat), one with an elemental glyph and one with a Prismatic. At least two copies of a Maelstrom staff, one with Berserker and one with Absorb. Ideally a completely different trash setup with a Lightning staff, ideally a BRP Lightning, Grothdarr, etc.
Same goes for stam. Hell, in vMoL HM I run 4 completely different gear/skill setups throughout the trial on stam. Trash, first boss, Twins, and Rakkhat all have different presets in AlphaGear. HoF is the same way. Typical sustained damage setups with long ramp-up times (like Rele + AY or Siroria) don't work on Archcustodian or even Triplets (these are good examples of places where burst damage is advantageous in PvE as well). Lots of groups swap to something like Leviathan + Veiled Heritance/Briarheart, or some other burst combo that's more effective for moving around a lot and switching targets, on these fights.
Different gear setups =/= duplicates of the same weapon with different enchantments. Nobody switches to another vMA staff with a different enchantment.0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »There is no reason to pick any race other than Breton in PvE right now. That's a problem.
I don't want to be rude but this problem exists solely in your (and a few others') head(s).
Then explain to me a single endgame scenario where it is advantageous to pick Altmer over Breton.
You said Altmer are better in trash fights. How many people have duplicates of their vMA or other set staves and can just carry 2 around (1 with a berserker glyph and 1 with an absorb glyph) to swap out between trash fights and boss fights?
Uhh ... I would say that just about everyone who has any reason to be concerned over the general 1-2% DPS difference between the top magicka races probably has multiples of all of their staves (and likely jewelry, too) for a variety of content. And if they don't, they should, because that's going to make a bigger DPS difference than choice of race.
At least two copies of some frontbar set staff (likely BSW or Spell Strat), one with an elemental glyph and one with a Prismatic. At least two copies of a Maelstrom staff, one with Berserker and one with Absorb. Ideally a completely different trash setup with a Lightning staff, ideally a BRP Lightning, Grothdarr, etc.
Same goes for stam. Hell, in vMoL HM I run 4 completely different gear/skill setups throughout the trial on stam. Trash, first boss, Twins, and Rakkhat all have different presets in AlphaGear. HoF is the same way. Typical sustained damage setups with long ramp-up times (like Rele + AY or Siroria) don't work on Archcustodian or even Triplets (these are good examples of places where burst damage is advantageous in PvE as well). Lots of groups swap to something like Leviathan + Veiled Heritance/Briarheart, or some other burst combo that's more effective for moving around a lot and switching targets, on these fights.
Different gear setups =/= duplicates of the same weapon with different enchantments. Nobody switches to another vMA staff with a different enchantment.
I quite literally have 5 different Gold VMA bow's in my bank with different traits and enchants. I carry two Masters bows on me with different traits and enchants and have 2 more in the bank, and I have an assortment of other bows in my Bank. I know most don't but I also know plenty of good players that do in fact have multiple weapons of one set for different situations.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..7 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »So Altmer and Breton are virtually identical:
DK: +433 (0.7%)
NB: -449 (0.7%)
Sorc: -219 (0.36%)
Temp: -6 (0.001%)
It seems that variance in the data is greater than any real difference between them.
I can't see any scenario where Altmer would be the preferred race under those margins. Breton gives you virtually identical DPS in addition to superior sustain and survivability. Altmer need to have a bigger reason to pick them. It doesn't need to be more DPS, but something like more health or stronger shields.
Confirmation that there is no significant difference between the two samples:
That means Breton is the clear-cut BiS race for magicka DD as they get extra sustain at no DPS loss.
Actually it means nothing besides that Altmer and Breton are almost on par due to your insignificant differences. When on paper the differences are so tiny, they won't be bigger in a real scenario due to the ton of other variables that come into play and are not affected by racials - at all.
If DPS is the same and Breton has superior sustain, Breton is the better race.
This is only if you are claiming that the Breton is sustaining more while doing equal dps. If the Breton is giving up recoveries or other sustain sources and barely getting through parses, while the Altmer is investing in recoveries and other resources while barely sustaining parses, then they are equal. You actually need to see the parses from @susmitds to say whether one is actually sustaining better or not.
Having built in sustain =/= sustaining better while dealing the same damage.
You need to compare the choices skill wise and setup wise to determine whether one is sacrificing more or not.
Altmer has less sustain than Breton even after building for sustain.
You need at least two parses one from each race to make a comparison of the actual in combat mag drain. It would be better to have several of each as sustain is far from static. IF both are below 3k magicka at the end of a solo 6mil then one having 1k and another having 2k is meaningless. Otherwise its all presupposition based on theory.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..3 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »There is no reason to pick any race other than Breton in PvE right now. That's a problem.
I don't want to be rude but this problem exists solely in your (and a few others') head(s).
Then explain to me a single endgame scenario where it is advantageous to pick Altmer over Breton.
You said Altmer are better in trash fights. How many people have duplicates of their vMA or other set staves and can just carry 2 around (1 with a berserker glyph and 1 with an absorb glyph) to swap out between trash fights and boss fights?
Uhh ... I would say that just about everyone who has any reason to be concerned over the general 1-2% DPS difference between the top magicka races probably has multiples of all of their staves (and likely jewelry, too) for a variety of content. And if they don't, they should, because that's going to make a bigger DPS difference than choice of race.
At least two copies of some frontbar set staff (likely BSW or Spell Strat), one with an elemental glyph and one with a Prismatic. At least two copies of a Maelstrom staff, one with Berserker and one with Absorb. Ideally a completely different trash setup with a Lightning staff, ideally a BRP Lightning, Grothdarr, etc.
Same goes for stam. Hell, in vMoL HM I run 4 completely different gear/skill setups throughout the trial on stam. Trash, first boss, Twins, and Rakkhat all have different presets in AlphaGear. HoF is the same way. Typical sustained damage setups with long ramp-up times (like Rele + AY or Siroria) don't work on Archcustodian or even Triplets (these are good examples of places where burst damage is advantageous in PvE as well). Lots of groups swap to something like Leviathan + Veiled Heritance/Briarheart, or some other burst combo that's more effective for moving around a lot and switching targets, on these fights.
Different gear setups =/= duplicates of the same weapon with different enchantments. Nobody switches to another vMA staff with a different enchantment.
I quite literally have 5 different Gold VMA bow's in my bank with different traits and enchants. I carry two Masters bows on me with different traits and enchants and have 2 more in the bank, and I have an assortment of other bows in my Bank. I know most don't but I also know plenty of good players that do in fact have multiple weapons of one set for different situations.
Even if someone is swapping vMA staves with different enchants after every fight (we're talking 1% of the 1% here, at most), requiring such a mechanic to make Altmer competitive with Breton is beyond absurd. It's also not clear that it would actually improve your score as the waiting to leave combat to swap weapons (or to manually swap on console without add-ons) wastes time.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 14, 2019 11:33PM1 -
Lord_Umbranox✭✭✭First of all: Thank you for your time and effort. There's alot of Data to analyze and alot of good info.
There's a major flaw though: within one race and one setup there couldn't be more difference than 2k DPS (on 6 mil) unless there were some major flaws with rotation and buffs. I understand that PTS isn't perfect. Yet if something goes wrong with our tests - this creates unreliable data source for Zenimax and yet they still make decisions based on quite vague and uncertain data.
My point is: you did a great job with your tests (I hope you feel well and sane after all this
) but, this data is very uneven. Try to pick your highest Median and make statistics out of that. I hope it will make a more clear picture for players and Zen dev team to analyze 
"To give up the hard road is to bring suffering to the next traveler."Master Ahram3 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »There is no reason to pick any race other than Breton in PvE right now. That's a problem.
I don't want to be rude but this problem exists solely in your (and a few others') head(s).
Then explain to me a single endgame scenario where it is advantageous to pick Altmer over Breton.
You said Altmer are better in trash fights. How many people have duplicates of their vMA or other set staves and can just carry 2 around (1 with a berserker glyph and 1 with an absorb glyph) to swap out between trash fights and boss fights?
Uhh ... I would say that just about everyone who has any reason to be concerned over the general 1-2% DPS difference between the top magicka races probably has multiples of all of their staves (and likely jewelry, too) for a variety of content. And if they don't, they should, because that's going to make a bigger DPS difference than choice of race.
At least two copies of some frontbar set staff (likely BSW or Spell Strat), one with an elemental glyph and one with a Prismatic. At least two copies of a Maelstrom staff, one with Berserker and one with Absorb. Ideally a completely different trash setup with a Lightning staff, ideally a BRP Lightning, Grothdarr, etc.
Same goes for stam. Hell, in vMoL HM I run 4 completely different gear/skill setups throughout the trial on stam. Trash, first boss, Twins, and Rakkhat all have different presets in AlphaGear. HoF is the same way. Typical sustained damage setups with long ramp-up times (like Rele + AY or Siroria) don't work on Archcustodian or even Triplets (these are good examples of places where burst damage is advantageous in PvE as well). Lots of groups swap to something like Leviathan + Veiled Heritance/Briarheart, or some other burst combo that's more effective for moving around a lot and switching targets, on these fights.
Different gear setups =/= duplicates of the same weapon with different enchantments. Nobody switches to another vMA staff with a different enchantment.
I quite literally have 5 different Gold VMA bow's in my bank with different traits and enchants. I carry two Masters bows on me with different traits and enchants and have 2 more in the bank, and I have an assortment of other bows in my Bank. I know most don't but I also know plenty of good players that do in fact have multiple weapons of one set for different situations.
Even if someone is swapping vMA staves with different enchants after every fight (we're talking 1% of the 1% here, at most), requiring such a mechanic to make Altmer competitive with Breton is beyond absurd. It's also not clear that it would actually improve your score as the waiting to leave combat to swap weapons (or to manually swap on console without add-ons) wastes time.
Everyone in my raid group has multiples of VMA Staves and Bows. Absolutely essential for fights like Rakkhat as a Prismatic is a significant DPS increase.6 -
Skullstachio✭✭✭✭✭A thing to add in regards to stamina builds, have you considered the "Tzogvin's Warband" set, the critical bonus on the 5th piece isn't as potent as berserking warrior(advancing yokeda) or leviathan, but it makes up for it with a 10 second uptime, it procs from any source of critical damage done(long run they release a similar set to this one for magicka builds) and it also provides minor force while maintaining maximum stacks of precision.
that and the 4th piece bonus provides 1487 physical armor penetration.Edited by Skullstachio on February 15, 2019 12:05AMIf you see me anywhere. Know that I am sitting back with a bag of popcorn, watching as ESO burns the goodwill of its player base with practices that only disrespects the players time like it did to me and many others...
If a game does not respect your time, best thing to do is move on from it and find something else.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »There is no reason to pick any race other than Breton in PvE right now. That's a problem.
I don't want to be rude but this problem exists solely in your (and a few others') head(s).
Then explain to me a single endgame scenario where it is advantageous to pick Altmer over Breton.
You said Altmer are better in trash fights. How many people have duplicates of their vMA or other set staves and can just carry 2 around (1 with a berserker glyph and 1 with an absorb glyph) to swap out between trash fights and boss fights?
Uhh ... I would say that just about everyone who has any reason to be concerned over the general 1-2% DPS difference between the top magicka races probably has multiples of all of their staves (and likely jewelry, too) for a variety of content. And if they don't, they should, because that's going to make a bigger DPS difference than choice of race.
At least two copies of some frontbar set staff (likely BSW or Spell Strat), one with an elemental glyph and one with a Prismatic. At least two copies of a Maelstrom staff, one with Berserker and one with Absorb. Ideally a completely different trash setup with a Lightning staff, ideally a BRP Lightning, Grothdarr, etc.
Same goes for stam. Hell, in vMoL HM I run 4 completely different gear/skill setups throughout the trial on stam. Trash, first boss, Twins, and Rakkhat all have different presets in AlphaGear. HoF is the same way. Typical sustained damage setups with long ramp-up times (like Rele + AY or Siroria) don't work on Archcustodian or even Triplets (these are good examples of places where burst damage is advantageous in PvE as well). Lots of groups swap to something like Leviathan + Veiled Heritance/Briarheart, or some other burst combo that's more effective for moving around a lot and switching targets, on these fights.
Different gear setups =/= duplicates of the same weapon with different enchantments. Nobody switches to another vMA staff with a different enchantment.
LOL ok dude, whatever you say ...
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Smasherx74✭✭✭✭✭
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Magden is not an dps class, an Breton would do way more DPS as stamina warden.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Props for the hardwork. I still think racial changes should be free for a week after patch, but I think I a going to stop beating that particular horse. haha.
I will say that I am pretty satisfied where things ended up in terms of balance if this were to go live as is.
Also, LOL that you couldnt find a confident magden. Wonder why?
End of the day, the best race for each class is only giving around 3% damage at most it seems. In other words, it really doesnt matter for most people. It actually makes some of the races with passives that arent oriented around damage a lot more appealing assuming you dont spend all your time in a raid.
Edit: Oh, and Dunmer is still the master race it seems (never worse than 3rd). My inner Morrowind fanboy believes this is how it should be.
Magden will be a DPS class pretty soon.Master Debater0 -
Mattock_Romulus✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »So Altmer and Breton are virtually identical:
DK: +433 (0.7%)
NB: -449 (0.7%)
Sorc: -219 (0.36%)
Temp: -6 (0.001%)
It seems that variance in the data is greater than any real difference between them.
I can't see any scenario where Altmer would be the preferred race under those margins. Breton gives you virtually identical DPS in addition to superior sustain and survivability. Altmer need to have a bigger reason to pick them. It doesn't need to be more DPS, but something like more health or stronger shields.
Confirmation that there is no significant difference between the two samples:
That means Breton is the clear-cut BiS race for magicka DD as they get extra sustain at no DPS loss.
Actually it means nothing besides that Altmer and Breton are almost on par due to your insignificant differences. When on paper the differences are so tiny, they won't be bigger in a real scenario due to the ton of other variables that come into play and are not affected by racials - at all.
If DPS is the same and Breton has superior sustain, Breton is the better race.
Sustain is not everything. There are short fights where Bretons don't make any use of their sustain (and obviously won't totally change their setup) and there are longer fights were their sustain matters. In shorter fights where "power" matters Altmer pull ahead (that's not up for a debate), in longer fights Bretons might pull ahead. Both races are otherwise on par. That's almost perfect balance. Complaining has to stop as there is no point towards it anymore. Breton is not universally better as some want it to make.
Where does one find a short fight in endgame PvE?
Breton is 100% universally better in PvE. There is not a single scenario where Altmer outperform them.
The only scenario where Altmer is better is in PvP ganking where they can load up on more upfront damage (but die if the attack fails).
Alcast said it himself. Sustain becomes redundant when you can run gold food and have access a raid group that knows how to manage sustain. Of course, he made that argument criticizing Redguard sustain viability.0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Upcoming class re balancing for Elsweyr?Smasherx74 wrote: »
Magden is not an dps class, an Breton would do way more DPS as stamina warden.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Props for the hardwork. I still think racial changes should be free for a week after patch, but I think I a going to stop beating that particular horse. haha.
I will say that I am pretty satisfied where things ended up in terms of balance if this were to go live as is.
Also, LOL that you couldnt find a confident magden. Wonder why?
End of the day, the best race for each class is only giving around 3% damage at most it seems. In other words, it really doesnt matter for most people. It actually makes some of the races with passives that arent oriented around damage a lot more appealing assuming you dont spend all your time in a raid.
Edit: Oh, and Dunmer is still the master race it seems (never worse than 3rd). My inner Morrowind fanboy believes this is how it should be.
Magden will be a DPS class pretty soon.
Together with an cute and slightly OP Ohmes-raht as in Dunmer + Khajiit
That would be an buff for people who saved their race change tokens.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Mattock_Romulus✭✭✭✭✭Great work with these tests!
So here's proof that Orc is is completely and consistently outparsing everything else for Stam, while also having more HP than most races at the same time. Oh boy... I thought this was pretty obvious just from lookin at the numbers, but now heres actual proof... I really hope ZOS takes another look at this, seems like a massive oversight.
Lol, we still doing this? Yeah I’m sure ZOS didn’t realize. Uh oh there’s a new BiS Stam race in the house everyone yell and scream and abandon the game. Comes in a whole 50-100 dps above the next best race and like max 1k above the worst lol. Get over it. Basically all races have damn near equal DPS and Orc gets 1k health more. It’s only going to matter to the absolute min maxers. And if that’s how you want to play then don’t complain about it. I bet the difference will lessen/other races might come out on top once people start adjusting builds/coming up with new ones.
Well the meta dps races for magicka and stamina are also two of the toughest races available for their roles. Looks like the daggerfal covenant are now winning the pve racial passive meta for both stam and mag.
But Redguard has more sustain than Orcs..
But Altmer has more weapon damage than Bretons....
Is the meta sustain or weapon/spell power?
Pick one please.0 -
Mattock_Romulus✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Because raid buffs can make sustain redundant.
Because raid buffs can make sustain redundant.
You've never had a PVE large group encounter where you have to burn the boss down quickly?
LOL8
