Magplar might not be the best spec to determine overall magdps potential because Templar’s crits deal 10% more damage than other classes, so of course Khajiit as a high crit race will top the rest.
MagDK and mag sorc (while not particularly strong) don’t have innate crit synergies that heavily favor Khajiit crit bonus from the get-go, so they might be a better indicator of dps balance
That being said though, Siroria can probably be swapped out for Scathing Mage on a Khajiit to almost the same effectiveness and doesn’t require staying in any particular area for the spell damage.
Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.HatchetHaro wrote: »Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
Khajiiti are still at the top.
CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.HatchetHaro wrote: »Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
Khajiiti are still at the top.
CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
Piercing Spear: increase your Critical Damage by 10%
Its the Dunmer magDK effect, racials fit perfectly with class.
My tips and probably ZoS response is changing Piercing Spear as they don't want an class=race setting.
Yes you still get this because of sustain but its more spread out, Dunmer and Khajiit do better in classes with more build in sustain.
Yes some chance this go life and get nerfed later.
Putting less points into elfborn will reduce the effect of Khajiit racials, not eliminate it. the +10% damage from templar is still there.HatchetHaro wrote: »This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.HatchetHaro wrote: »Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
Khajiiti are still at the top.
CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
Piercing Spear: increase your Critical Damage by 10%
Its the Dunmer magDK effect, racials fit perfectly with class.
My tips and probably ZoS response is changing Piercing Spear as they don't want an class=race setting.
Yes you still get this because of sustain but its more spread out, Dunmer and Khajiit do better in classes with more build in sustain.
Yes some chance this go life and get nerfed later.
I don't understand what you're getting at here.
I know Templars have an additional 10% Crit Damage. That Crit Damage is additive to other sources of Crit Damage, so couple that with 56 points into Elfborn and Minor Force, Templars end up with 190% Crit Damage while other classes such as Sorcerers and Dragonknights are stuck at 180%.
In the spreadsheet that I have posted (twice), I've recalculated the results that I've gotten to see what the numbers would be at if Piercing Spear was not unlocked, so basically scaling the 190% Crit Damage down to 180%. Even after the recalculations, Khajiit still came out on top.
Putting less points into elfborn will reduce the effect of Khajiit racials, not eliminate it. the +10% damage from templar is still there.HatchetHaro wrote: »This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.HatchetHaro wrote: »Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
Khajiiti are still at the top.
CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
Piercing Spear: increase your Critical Damage by 10%
Its the Dunmer magDK effect, racials fit perfectly with class.
My tips and probably ZoS response is changing Piercing Spear as they don't want an class=race setting.
Yes you still get this because of sustain but its more spread out, Dunmer and Khajiit do better in classes with more build in sustain.
Yes some chance this go life and get nerfed later.
I don't understand what you're getting at here.
I know Templars have an additional 10% Crit Damage. That Crit Damage is additive to other sources of Crit Damage, so couple that with 56 points into Elfborn and Minor Force, Templars end up with 190% Crit Damage while other classes such as Sorcerers and Dragonknights are stuck at 180%.
In the spreadsheet that I have posted (twice), I've recalculated the results that I've gotten to see what the numbers would be at if Piercing Spear was not unlocked, so basically scaling the 190% Crit Damage down to 180%. Even after the recalculations, Khajiit still came out on top.
Have you tried parses on other classes?
Again the solution is to change Elfborn.
Or give Khajiit lower crit and more sustain. I would benefit from that.
sneakymitchell wrote: »@HatchetHaro The nord is going bring out nice ulti regen where there is a lot of AoE damage happening. Combined with war machine with a nb or sorc. High up time for major slayer for DPS group. The ulti regen going be nice on a DK for more resource return.
HatchetHaro wrote: »I have updated the post with PTS v4.3.2 data and numbers.
Not looking good. This first round of changes is a complete joke, I'll just be real here.
Seraphayel wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »I have updated the post with PTS v4.3.2 data and numbers.
Not looking good. This first round of changes is a complete joke, I'll just be real here.
Uhm besides a possible overestimating of the Khajiit crit chance the results look pretty fine. I don't see where the changes are a "complete joke".
HatchetHaro wrote: »Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.
These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".
Seraphayel wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.
These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".
No they weren't?
Well if you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then.
HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.
These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".
No they weren't?
Well if you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then.
Shall I post this again?
I have to make this clear: a damage difference of even 1% is a lot, and Khajiiti are now dealing 7.5% more damage than races with no Magicka passives. Even Altmer and Dunmer were scaled too high already.
Fact of the matter is that end-game raiders will min-max any and all stats, and Khajiiti dealing a full 1.1% more damage than Altmer, the next best race, means that no one will run any other race for Magicka DPS. Compared to Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons (on Blue food), not only do Khajiit have more damage, they also have much better sustain (70 Magicka per second just on Magplar, compared to... 0 on Altmer, 0 on Dunmer, and 0 on Breton).
This is not balanced at all.
Critical Chance is a very important stat, especially in PvE, since they scale so well with certain buffs such as Major Force. 8% Critical Chance, by itself, is a 4.5%-5% damage boost.Seraphayel wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.
These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".
No they weren't?
Well if you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then.
Shall I post this again?
I have to make this clear: a damage difference of even 1% is a lot, and Khajiiti are now dealing 7.5% more damage than races with no Magicka passives. Even Altmer and Dunmer were scaled too high already.
Fact of the matter is that end-game raiders will min-max any and all stats, and Khajiiti dealing a full 1.1% more damage than Altmer, the next best race, means that no one will run any other race for Magicka DPS. Compared to Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons (on Blue food), not only do Khajiit have more damage, they also have much better sustain (70 Magicka per second just on Magplar, compared to... 0 on Altmer, 0 on Dunmer, and 0 on Breton).
This is not balanced at all.
Let me just copy paste my response I edited after you already quoted me:
No they weren't? They are in your examples because you're giving crit chance too much value (well that's just my opinion here).
If you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then. Except they're not and your numbers even prove you and your mates wrong. Besides "overperforming" Khajiit due to crit Magicka races seem incredibly balanced.
By the way, much better sustain? *lol*
What about the Spell Damage Altmer & Dunmer have and Khajiit don't? Or the incredible cost reduction of Bretons, Khajiit don't have?
Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.vesselwiththepestle wrote: »So Bretons are the weakest Magicka DD race now and not Altmer?
What's wrong about Altmer, Dunmer and Bretons so close? It seems very balanced to me.
HatchetHaro wrote: »And yes, much better sustain. 70 resources per second is nothing to laugh at, and as you have obviously seen from my charts, Khajiit don't need the Spell and Weapon damage to still be at the top of the Magicka DPS charts.
Also, I've specifically stated Bretons on Blue food, which is the exact same sustain as Dunmer on Gold food, which is equivalent to 0 Magicka recovered per second on Gold food.
Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.
The issue with Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons being really close is that if you flip the roles around, they would not be close at all. Dunmer are at the top for Stamina DPS (probably just behind Orcs), Bretons are still really potent healers. Altmer just have... nothing.
Basically, there needs to be balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale, not just one single role.
HatchetHaro wrote: »And yes, much better sustain. 70 resources per second is nothing to laugh at, and as you have obviously seen from my charts, Khajiit don't need the Spell and Weapon damage to still be at the top of the Magicka DPS charts.
Also, I've specifically stated Bretons on Blue food, which is the exact same sustain as Dunmer on Gold food, which is equivalent to 0 Magicka recovered per second on Gold food.
Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.
The issue with Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons being really close is that if you flip the roles around, they would not be close at all. Dunmer are at the top for Stamina DPS (probably just behind Orcs), Bretons are still really potent healers. Altmer just have... nothing.
Basically, there needs to be balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale, not just one single role.
Seraphayel wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »And yes, much better sustain. 70 resources per second is nothing to laugh at, and as you have obviously seen from my charts, Khajiit don't need the Spell and Weapon damage to still be at the top of the Magicka DPS charts.
Also, I've specifically stated Bretons on Blue food, which is the exact same sustain as Dunmer on Gold food, which is equivalent to 0 Magicka recovered per second on Gold food.
Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.
The issue with Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons being really close is that if you flip the roles around, they would not be close at all. Dunmer are at the top for Stamina DPS (probably just behind Orcs), Bretons are still really potent healers. Altmer just have... nothing.
Basically, there needs to be balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale, not just one single role.
Another note from me:
Every race has distinctive features now with a "seasonsing" on top. In my opinion we can create four categories:
a) More resources (Stamina, Magicka, Health)
b) More sustain (Regen, cost reduction, passives that result in a sustain gain)
c) More damage/healing (Crit, Weapon/Spell damage)
d) More utility (other, e.g. procs)
Which brings the Magicka races to the following:
Altmer
Main: a (Magicka) + c (Spell Damage)
Secondary: b (Stamina)
Dunmer
Main: a (Magicka/Stamina) + c (Spell Damage)
Secondary: d (Fire resistance, Burning immunity)
Khajiit
Main: c (Weapon/Spell Crit)
Secondary: a (Magicka/Stamina) + b (Magicka/Stamina/Health)
Argonian
Main: c (+6% healing done) + d (Health, Magicka, Stamina restore on potion usage; +Health, Disease resistance, Disease immunity)
Secondary: a (Magicka)
Breton
Main: a (Magicka) + b (Cost reduction, Magicka recovery)
Secondary: d (Spell resistance)
When it comes to raw power, Altmer and Dunmer are on top (power).
When it comes to highest sustain, Breton is on top (sustain).
When it comes to versatility, Khajiit is on top (power + sustain).
When it comes to utility, Argonian is on top (resources, sustain, utility).
None of the races is useless and that's what parses (even yours) indicate.
MartiniDaniels wrote: »Sorry, so Argonian is comparable to other mag dps now?
Dunmer is not an hybrid race, hybrids do not work for PvE DD, they and Khajiit are versatile,HatchetHaro wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »I have updated the post with PTS v4.3.2 data and numbers.
Not looking good. This first round of changes is a complete joke, I'll just be real here.
Uhm besides a possible overestimating of the Khajiit crit chance the results look pretty fine. I don't see where the changes are a "complete joke".
Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.
The Altmer sustain passive has been reworked into a utility passive that restores their lowest resource. This passive now, by itself, is counter-intuitive to whatever you want to build on your Altmer, with the only feasible usage out of it being on tanks which prioritize high Stamina pools and high Magicka recovery, and even then that is a stretch.
Dunmer were at the top for Stamina DPS and was really respectable for Magicka DPS for 4.3.1. They've just received a buff to their resources that put them almost exactly on par with Altmer for Magicka DPS, and even more powerful for their Stamina DPS. A hybrid race should not be at the top in terms of power for both categories.
These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".
1. RNG doesn't mean anything as long as the fight is long enough, and even something as short as 2 minutes is long enough.Khajiit is unarguably reliant on RNG and does in fact lack meaningful sustain. Breton pretty obviously has incredible sustain, and to say otherwise is very... odd considering you do present yourself as an end-game player.
Altmer don’t have their sustain anymore, and their damage is matched quite easily by Bretons in 99% of fights due to their cost reduction passive which has far more effective recovery than a Khajiit could ever hope to match, and definitely more than an Altmer could ever dream of now.
I’d advise you go look to these parses which explain and address the sustain concerns of the hardest hitters.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457935/stamina-magicka-raid-warhorn-dps-solo-sustain-dps-tests-graphs-with-cp-stat-boost-correction-4-3-2/p1
He even says later on that the perfect uptimes replicates in the parses will almost never be achieved in a raid situation, even with the best teams, and he found Breton much more easy to parse with because their drain is far lower than any other race.
Even just using elemental weapon three times in a 12s rotation, a Breton’s effective mag regen (60/s or 120 regen) matches and exceed Khajiit’s passive magicka regen, and that’s before accounting for literallly any other ability in that rotation.
It appears that you do not understand the very fundamentals of crits and why they matter.Seraphayel wrote: »The one thing I have seen from your charts is that you - I don't know why - put too much emphasis on Crit in your testing. Maybe it's due to the class (MagPlar) or because you think it might be overall the most important thing but that's where I disagree. Crit chance is always random. So the 8% Crit from Khajiit and Shadow Mundus apply just with a specific percentage and not all the time whereas something like reduced costs / higher sustain / raw damage applies 100% of the time. So from that standpoint alone Altmer, Dunmer and the other max. resource + damage races are usually on top when it comes to raw damage.
If we apply all of the benefits for Crit now it looks different and Khajiit is on top (which should be the case) but that's not happening all of the time and that's where the performance of Khajiit is totally fine in comparison to the other races.
There is no issue with Altmer, Dunmer or Bretons. Two days ago every Altmer player was frantic that Breton will be the BiS race because [reasons], now the mood shifts towards Khajiit will be the BiS race because [reasons]. In two days Imperial will be the BiS race because of [reasons]. The only thing what I get out of these threads is angry Altmer players that are dissatisfied until Altmer will be the undisputed top because of [reasons].
I mean Altmer have now a Stamina return passive which fits your argument of "there needs to be a balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale". The Altmer passive that I dislike is the reduced damage while casting/channeling - now that's useless for most classes. The Stamina proc is not.
This is not a realistic way of breaking down the roles within the game. I'll just put it this way: there's a stat-ceiling for damage-dealing, and there's none of that for any other role.Seraphayel wrote: »Another note from me:
Every race has distinctive features now with a "seasonsing" on top. In my opinion we can create four categories:
a) More resources (Stamina, Magicka, Health)
b) More sustain (Regen, cost reduction, passives that result in a sustain gain)
c) More damage/healing (Crit, Weapon/Spell damage)
d) More utility (other, e.g. procs)
When it comes to raw power, Altmer and Dunmer are on top (power).
When it comes to highest sustain, Breton is on top (sustain).
When it comes to versatility, Khajiit is on top (power + sustain).
When it comes to utility, Argonian is on top (resources, sustain, utility).
None of the races is useless and that's what parses (even yours) indicate.
Seraphayel wrote: »I agree on most points with you in your latest post @HatchetHaro , but I still think you overestimate Khajiit and underestimate Argonian performance. Not everything in this game must be broken down to raw numbers or a DPS net gain.