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DPS Data and Analysis on Racial Passives through all PTS cycles (UPDATED with 4.3.3 Magplar data)

  • Somewhere
    Somewhere
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Magplar might not be the best spec to determine overall magdps potential because Templar’s crits deal 10% more damage than other classes, so of course Khajiit as a high crit race will top the rest.

    MagDK and mag sorc (while not particularly strong) don’t have innate crit synergies that heavily favor Khajiit crit bonus from the get-go, so they might be a better indicator of dps balance

    That being said though, Siroria can probably be swapped out for Scathing Mage on a Khajiit to almost the same effectiveness and doesn’t require staying in any particular area for the spell damage.

    I did testing myself with non-pet sorcerer with Argonian, Breton, Dunmer, Altmer, and Khajiit. All of my runs were self buffed and I found similar results: Khajiit has the highest damage, just barely above Altmer.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Playnice wrote: »
    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
    Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.

    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.

    CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
    Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

    17 Argonians

    6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Playnice wrote: »
    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
    Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.

    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.

    CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
    This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.
    Piercing Spear: increase your Critical Damage by 10%

    Its the Dunmer magDK effect, racials fit perfectly with class.
    My tips and probably ZoS response is changing Piercing Spear as they don't want an class=race setting.
    Yes you still get this because of sustain but its more spread out, Dunmer and Khajiit do better in classes with more build in sustain.
    Yes some chance this go life and get nerfed later.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    zaria wrote: »
    Playnice wrote: »
    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
    Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.

    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.

    CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
    This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.
    Piercing Spear: increase your Critical Damage by 10%

    Its the Dunmer magDK effect, racials fit perfectly with class.
    My tips and probably ZoS response is changing Piercing Spear as they don't want an class=race setting.
    Yes you still get this because of sustain but its more spread out, Dunmer and Khajiit do better in classes with more build in sustain.
    Yes some chance this go life and get nerfed later.

    I don't understand what you're getting at here.

    I know Templars have an additional 10% Crit Damage. That Crit Damage is additive to other sources of Crit Damage, so couple that with 56 points into Elfborn and Minor Force, Templars end up with 190% Crit Damage while other classes such as Sorcerers and Dragonknights are stuck at 180%.

    In the spreadsheet that I have posted (twice), I've recalculated the results that I've gotten to see what the numbers would be at if Piercing Spear was not unlocked, so basically scaling the 190% Crit Damage down to 180%. Even after the recalculations, Khajiit still came out on top.
    Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

    17 Argonians

    6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
  • zaria
    zaria
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    zaria wrote: »
    Playnice wrote: »
    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
    Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.

    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.

    CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
    This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.
    Piercing Spear: increase your Critical Damage by 10%

    Its the Dunmer magDK effect, racials fit perfectly with class.
    My tips and probably ZoS response is changing Piercing Spear as they don't want an class=race setting.
    Yes you still get this because of sustain but its more spread out, Dunmer and Khajiit do better in classes with more build in sustain.
    Yes some chance this go life and get nerfed later.

    I don't understand what you're getting at here.

    I know Templars have an additional 10% Crit Damage. That Crit Damage is additive to other sources of Crit Damage, so couple that with 56 points into Elfborn and Minor Force, Templars end up with 190% Crit Damage while other classes such as Sorcerers and Dragonknights are stuck at 180%.

    In the spreadsheet that I have posted (twice), I've recalculated the results that I've gotten to see what the numbers would be at if Piercing Spear was not unlocked, so basically scaling the 190% Crit Damage down to 180%. Even after the recalculations, Khajiit still came out on top.
    Putting less points into elfborn will reduce the effect of Khajiit racials, not eliminate it. the +10% damage from templar is still there.
    Have you tried parses on other classes?
    Again the solution is to change Elfborn.
    Or give Khajiit lower crit and more sustain. I would benefit from that.
    Edited by zaria on January 27, 2019 9:39PM
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    zaria wrote: »
    zaria wrote: »
    Playnice wrote: »
    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
    Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.

    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.

    CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
    This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.
    Piercing Spear: increase your Critical Damage by 10%

    Its the Dunmer magDK effect, racials fit perfectly with class.
    My tips and probably ZoS response is changing Piercing Spear as they don't want an class=race setting.
    Yes you still get this because of sustain but its more spread out, Dunmer and Khajiit do better in classes with more build in sustain.
    Yes some chance this go life and get nerfed later.

    I don't understand what you're getting at here.

    I know Templars have an additional 10% Crit Damage. That Crit Damage is additive to other sources of Crit Damage, so couple that with 56 points into Elfborn and Minor Force, Templars end up with 190% Crit Damage while other classes such as Sorcerers and Dragonknights are stuck at 180%.

    In the spreadsheet that I have posted (twice), I've recalculated the results that I've gotten to see what the numbers would be at if Piercing Spear was not unlocked, so basically scaling the 190% Crit Damage down to 180%. Even after the recalculations, Khajiit still came out on top.
    Putting less points into elfborn will reduce the effect of Khajiit racials, not eliminate it. the +10% damage from templar is still there.
    Have you tried parses on other classes?
    Again the solution is to change Elfborn.
    Or give Khajiit lower crit and more sustain. I would benefit from that.

    1. I never stated that putting fewer points into Elfborn would eliminate the bonus you get from Khajiiti racials. I don't know where you got that from but I never said it. I also know putting fewer points into Elfborn would make Khajiiti racials give less of a bonus.

    The reason why I put 56 points into Elfborn is that it is a good middle ground of however many points people put into Elfborn, which ranges between 44 and 66, so +17% Crit Damage to +22% Crit Damage. Also, 56 points into Elfborn gives a nice and even +20% Crit Damage, which is a cleaner number to use for calculations overall.

    Besides, a difference of 5% Crit Damage from changing points in Elfborn is not going to affect the damage differences between races by any significant amount; as I have already demonstrated twice that difference in my Templar 190% Crit Damage to 180% Crit Damage conversion.

    2. Once more, I know about the +10% Crit Damage from Templar, and yet again, in the spreadsheet that I have posted twice in the comments, I have done calculations that eliminate that +10% Crit Damage so you can see the reduced numbers without the Templar +10% Crit Damage.

    For the third time, I have to post this image. I have done the testing, the calculations all check out, and I know what I am talking about.
    gmYAW77.png
    In case you can't read it, Khajiiti on 180% Crit Damage is 6.172% more effective than Nords, and Khajiiti on 190% Crit Damage is 6.564% more effective than Nords. So yes, I know their racial effectiveness scales with more Crit Damage.

    3. Yes, I've tried parsing on Magicka Sorcerers, but that was during Murkmire and, honestly, I can't be arsed. Yet again, I have to repeat myself: you can get an accurate approximation of the racial damage differences on different classes simply by tweaking the numbers that I've gotten on my Magicka Templar parses. The abilities still scale the same way and since there are no longer any +% max Magicka passives on races, the discrepancies in scaling between classes are going to be much less than before.

    So, at risk of repeating myself, I have no idea what your problem is with my testing and calculations. Every single thing you've said, I have already taken into consideration and factored into my calculations long before you started criticizing what I didn't even claim.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on January 28, 2019 4:42AM
    Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

    17 Argonians

    6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    I have updated the post with data from a recent testing session in PTS v4.3.1. While there were no racial changes for v4.3.1, I still needed to redo my testing to test out my new scripts (inb4 "hurr durr cheats") and testing methodology.

    All this should help me achieve more consistent and reliable results in future testing.
    Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

    17 Argonians

    6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
  • sneakymitchell
    sneakymitchell
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    @HatchetHaro The nord is going bring out nice ulti regen where there is a lot of AoE damage happening. Combined with war machine with a nb or sorc. High up time for major slayer for DPS group. The ulti regen going be nice on a DK for more resource return.
    Edited by sneakymitchell on February 3, 2019 9:45PM
    NA-Xbox one- Ebonheart Pact- Nord Tank DK
    PC-NA Ebonheart Pact Nord Stam Templar
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    @HatchetHaro The nord is going bring out nice ulti regen where there is a lot of AoE damage happening. Combined with war machine with a nb or sorc. High up time for major slayer for DPS group. The ulti regen going be nice on a DK for more resource return.

    Only when you take damage, and in the case of trials, you rarely do take sustained damage for any extended period of time.

    But okay, let's just assume that the Nord is a crappy dps and is constantly taking damage.

    Let's talk War Machine. Incapacitating Strike costs 70 ulti, and ulti regen is 3 per second while in-combat while taking damage or attacking with light or heavy attacks. This means that a NB can proc War Machine every 24 seconds, with a 10s uptime on the Major Slayer buff. This is effectively 6.25% more damage for the NB and 2 groupmates for the entire duration. Let's say the NB is a Nord; Nords have effectively 0.5 extra ultimate regen per second, so they can proc Major Slayer with Incap every 20 seconds, effectively 7.5% more damage for the NB and 2 groupmates for the entire duration. If you look at the damage difference, it is 1.25% extra damage per player, or in total 3.75% more damage for all three players. However, being on a race such as Redguard or Khajiit means that they deal about 6% more damage than Nords.

    So, you will always gain more out of a viable Stamina DPS than a Nord, whether it is for proccing War Machine or not.

    What this about DKs then?

    DK resource return is 46 per ulti spent, and DKs use Standard of Might (or Elemental Rage) which costs 250 ulti. Upon casting an ultimate, the DK gains 11500 Magicka and Stamina. Based on the base 3/s ulti regen, this means that DKs can cast Standard every 84 seconds, and get effectively 136.9/s Magicka and Stamina regen. Nords, however, can cast the same ulti every 72 seconds, and get effectively 159.7/s Magicka and Stamina regen. The difference is only 22.8/s Magicka and Stamina regen, only about a quarter of what Argonians have.

    So the resource return based on that Ultimate generation is minimal as well.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 4, 2019 2:54PM
    Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

    17 Argonians

    6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
  • sneakymitchell
    sneakymitchell
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    @HatchetHaro Still having that ulti would remind some on the old ulti system. But the nord version is the lesser power version. It’s fine where it’s at with the passive. Still makes nord unquie though getting better ulti than the rest of the races than only having a high stat pool with some defenses. Also if it’s proc chance then it would be like having a small version of blood spawn. This ulti is like having small version of werewolf hide.
    Edited by sneakymitchell on February 4, 2019 1:54AM
    NA-Xbox one- Ebonheart Pact- Nord Tank DK
    PC-NA Ebonheart Pact Nord Stam Templar
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    I have updated the post with PTS v4.3.2 data and numbers.

    Not looking good. This first round of changes is a complete joke, I'll just be real here.
    Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

    17 Argonians

    6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    I have updated the post with PTS v4.3.2 data and numbers.

    Not looking good. This first round of changes is a complete joke, I'll just be real here.

    Besides a possible overestimation of the Khajiit crit chance the results look pretty fine.

    Altmer, Dunmer, Breton and Khajiit are generally on par with differences <500DPS (in most cases it's rather ~200 DPS).

    I don't see where the changes are a "complete joke". It's almost perfect balancing.
    Edited by Seraphayel on February 10, 2019 4:16PM
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I have updated the post with PTS v4.3.2 data and numbers.

    Not looking good. This first round of changes is a complete joke, I'll just be real here.

    Uhm besides a possible overestimating of the Khajiit crit chance the results look pretty fine. I don't see where the changes are a "complete joke".

    Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.

    The Altmer sustain passive has been reworked into a utility passive that restores their lowest resource. This passive now, by itself, is counter-intuitive to whatever you want to build on your Altmer, with the only feasible usage out of it being on tanks which prioritize high Stamina pools and high Magicka recovery, and even then that is a stretch.

    Dunmer were at the top for Stamina DPS and was really respectable for Magicka DPS for 4.3.1. They've just received a buff to their resources that put them almost exactly on par with Altmer for Magicka DPS, and even more powerful for their Stamina DPS. A hybrid race should not be at the top in terms of power for both categories.

    These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".
    Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

    17 Argonians

    6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.

    These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".

    No they weren't? They are in your examples because you're giving crit chance too much value (well that's just my opinion here).

    If you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then. Except they're not and your numbers even prove you and your mates wrong. Besides "overperforming" Khajiit due to crit Magicka races seem incredibly balanced.
    Edited by Seraphayel on February 10, 2019 4:35PM
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • vesselwiththepestle
    vesselwiththepestle
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    So Bretons are the weakest Magicka DD race now and not Altmer?

    What's wrong about Altmer, Dunmer and Bretons so close? It seems very balanced to me.
    1000+ CP
    PC/EU Ravenwatch Daggerfall Covenant

    Give me my wings back!
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.

    These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".

    No they weren't?

    Well if you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then.

    Shall I post this again?
    y2yEmNi.png

    I have to make this clear: a damage difference of even 1% is a lot, and Khajiiti are now dealing 7.5% more damage than races with no Magicka passives. Even Altmer and Dunmer were scaled too high already.

    Fact of the matter is that end-game raiders will min-max any and all stats, and Khajiiti dealing a full 1.1% more damage than Altmer, the next best race, means that no one will run any other race for Magicka DPS. Compared to Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons (on Blue food), not only do Khajiit have more damage, they also have much better sustain (70 Magicka per second just on Magplar, compared to... 0 on Altmer, 0 on Dunmer, and 0 on Breton).

    This is not balanced at all.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 10, 2019 4:32PM
    Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

    17 Argonians

    6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.

    These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".

    No they weren't?

    Well if you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then.

    Shall I post this again?
    y2yEmNi.png

    I have to make this clear: a damage difference of even 1% is a lot, and Khajiiti are now dealing 7.5% more damage than races with no Magicka passives. Even Altmer and Dunmer were scaled too high already.

    Fact of the matter is that end-game raiders will min-max any and all stats, and Khajiiti dealing a full 1.1% more damage than Altmer, the next best race, means that no one will run any other race for Magicka DPS. Compared to Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons (on Blue food), not only do Khajiit have more damage, they also have much better sustain (70 Magicka per second just on Magplar, compared to... 0 on Altmer, 0 on Dunmer, and 0 on Breton).

    This is not balanced at all.

    Let me just copy paste my response I edited after you already quoted me:

    No they weren't? They are in your examples because you're giving crit chance too much value (well that's just my opinion here).

    If you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then. Except they're not and your numbers even prove you and your mates wrong. Besides "overperforming" Khajiit due to crit Magicka races seem incredibly balanced.


    By the way, much better sustain? *lol*
    What about the Spell Damage Altmer & Dunmer have and Khajiit don't? Or the incredible cost reduction of Bretons, Khajiit don't have?
    Edited by Seraphayel on February 10, 2019 4:36PM
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.

    These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".

    No they weren't?

    Well if you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then.

    Shall I post this again?
    y2yEmNi.png

    I have to make this clear: a damage difference of even 1% is a lot, and Khajiiti are now dealing 7.5% more damage than races with no Magicka passives. Even Altmer and Dunmer were scaled too high already.

    Fact of the matter is that end-game raiders will min-max any and all stats, and Khajiiti dealing a full 1.1% more damage than Altmer, the next best race, means that no one will run any other race for Magicka DPS. Compared to Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons (on Blue food), not only do Khajiit have more damage, they also have much better sustain (70 Magicka per second just on Magplar, compared to... 0 on Altmer, 0 on Dunmer, and 0 on Breton).

    This is not balanced at all.

    Let me just copy paste my response I edited after you already quoted me:

    No they weren't? They are in your examples because you're giving crit chance too much value (well that's just my opinion here).

    If you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then. Except they're not and your numbers even prove you and your mates wrong. Besides "overperforming" Khajiit due to crit Magicka races seem incredibly balanced.


    By the way, much better sustain? *lol*
    What about the Spell Damage Altmer & Dunmer have and Khajiit don't? Or the incredible cost reduction of Bretons, Khajiit don't have?
    Critical Chance is a very important stat, especially in PvE, since they scale so well with certain buffs such as Major Force. 8% Critical Chance, by itself, is a 4.5%-5% damage boost.

    If you don't care about it, then you must be a PvPr, and that is understandable since PvP is based much more on skill than stats.

    And yes, much better sustain. 70 resources per second is nothing to laugh at, and as you have obviously seen from my charts, Khajiit don't need the Spell and Weapon damage to still be at the top of the Magicka DPS charts.

    Also, I've specifically stated Bretons on Blue food, which is the exact same sustain as Dunmer on Gold food, which is equivalent to 0 Magicka recovered per second on Gold food.
    So Bretons are the weakest Magicka DD race now and not Altmer?

    What's wrong about Altmer, Dunmer and Bretons so close? It seems very balanced to me.
    Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.

    The issue with Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons being really close is that if you flip the roles around, they would not be close at all. Dunmer are at the top for Stamina DPS (probably just behind Orcs), Bretons are still really potent healers. Altmer just have... nothing.

    Basically, there needs to be balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale, not just one single role.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 10, 2019 6:26PM
    Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

    17 Argonians

    6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
  • Kesstryl
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    I do think the races are moving in the right direction of being closer in terms of balance, however, they are not there yet. Some metas have simply been shifted, and that's not cool. I'm also not cool with some of the PvP race perks that only benefit PvP (looking at Bosmer and Altmer). I do like how some races are opened up to going in either a magika or stamina build like khajiit and dunmer. More races should have this to diversify builds.
    HEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts! Contact @Kesstryl in-game to join.
  • Jhalin
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    Khajiit is unarguably reliant on RNG and does in fact lack meaningful sustain. Breton pretty obviously has incredible sustain, and to say otherwise is very... odd considering you do present yourself as an end-game player.

    Altmer don’t have their sustain anymore, and their damage is matched quite easily by Bretons in 99% of fights due to their cost reduction passive which has far more effective recovery than a Khajiit could ever hope to match, and definitely more than an Altmer could ever dream of now.

    I’d advise you go look to these parses which explain and address the sustain concerns of the hardest hitters.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457935/stamina-magicka-raid-warhorn-dps-solo-sustain-dps-tests-graphs-with-cp-stat-boost-correction-4-3-2/p1

    He even says later on that the perfect uptimes replicates in the parses will almost never be achieved in a raid situation, even with the best teams, and he found Breton much more easy to parse with because their drain is far lower than any other race.

    Even just using elemental weapon three times in a 12s rotation, a Breton’s effective mag regen (60/s or 120 regen) matches and exceed Khajiit’s passive magicka regen, and that’s before accounting for literallly any other ability in that rotation.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    And yes, much better sustain. 70 resources per second is nothing to laugh at, and as you have obviously seen from my charts, Khajiit don't need the Spell and Weapon damage to still be at the top of the Magicka DPS charts.

    Also, I've specifically stated Bretons on Blue food, which is the exact same sustain as Dunmer on Gold food, which is equivalent to 0 Magicka recovered per second on Gold food.

    Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.

    The issue with Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons being really close is that if you flip the roles around, they would not be close at all. Dunmer are at the top for Stamina DPS (probably just behind Orcs), Bretons are still really potent healers. Altmer just have... nothing.

    Basically, there needs to be balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale, not just one single role.

    The one thing I have seen from your charts is that you - I don't know why - put too much emphasis on Crit in your testing. Maybe it's due to the class (MagPlar) or because you think it might be overall the most important thing but that's where I disagree. Crit chance is always random. So the 8% Crit from Khajiit and Shadow Mundus apply just with a specific percentage and not all the time whereas something like reduced costs / higher sustain / raw damage applies 100% of the time. So from that standpoint alone Altmer, Dunmer and the other max. resource + damage races are usually on top when it comes to raw damage.

    If we apply all of the benefits for Crit now it looks different and Khajiit is on top (which should be the case) but that's not happening all of the time and that's where the performance of Khajiit is totally fine in comparison to the other races.

    There is no issue with Altmer, Dunmer or Bretons. Two days ago every Altmer player was frantic that Breton will be the BiS race because [reasons], now the mood shifts towards Khajiit will be the BiS race because [reasons]. In two days Imperial will be the BiS race because of [reasons]. The only thing what I get out of these threads is angry Altmer players that are dissatisfied until Altmer will be the undisputed top because of [reasons].

    I mean Altmer have now a Stamina return passive which fits your argument of "there needs to be a balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale". The Altmer passive that I dislike is the reduced damage while casting/channeling - now that's useless for most classes. The Stamina proc is not.
    Edited by Seraphayel on February 10, 2019 7:57PM
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    And yes, much better sustain. 70 resources per second is nothing to laugh at, and as you have obviously seen from my charts, Khajiit don't need the Spell and Weapon damage to still be at the top of the Magicka DPS charts.

    Also, I've specifically stated Bretons on Blue food, which is the exact same sustain as Dunmer on Gold food, which is equivalent to 0 Magicka recovered per second on Gold food.

    Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.

    The issue with Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons being really close is that if you flip the roles around, they would not be close at all. Dunmer are at the top for Stamina DPS (probably just behind Orcs), Bretons are still really potent healers. Altmer just have... nothing.

    Basically, there needs to be balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale, not just one single role.

    Another note from me:

    Every race has distinctive features now with a "seasonsing" on top. In my opinion we can create four categories:

    a) More resources (Stamina, Magicka, Health)
    b) More sustain (Regen, cost reduction, passives that result in a sustain gain)
    c) More damage/healing (Crit, Weapon/Spell damage)
    d) More utility (other, e.g. procs)

    Which brings the Magicka races to the following:

    Altmer
    Main: a (Magicka) + c (Spell Damage)
    Secondary: b (Stamina)

    Dunmer
    Main: a (Magicka/Stamina) + c (Spell Damage)
    Secondary: d (Fire resistance, Burning immunity)

    Khajiit
    Main: c (Weapon/Spell Crit)
    Secondary: a (Magicka/Stamina) + b (Magicka/Stamina/Health)

    Argonian
    Main: c (+6% healing done) + d (Health, Magicka, Stamina restore on potion usage; +Health, Disease resistance, Disease immunity)
    Secondary: a (Magicka)

    Breton
    Main: a (Magicka) + b (Cost reduction, Magicka recovery)
    Secondary: d (Spell resistance)

    When it comes to raw power, Altmer and Dunmer are on top (power).

    When it comes to highest sustain, Breton is on top (sustain).

    When it comes to versatility, Khajiit is on top (power + sustain).

    When it comes to utility, Argonian is on top (resources, sustain, utility).

    None of the races is useless and that's what parses (even yours) indicate.
    Edited by Seraphayel on February 10, 2019 7:59PM
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • MartiniDaniels
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    And yes, much better sustain. 70 resources per second is nothing to laugh at, and as you have obviously seen from my charts, Khajiit don't need the Spell and Weapon damage to still be at the top of the Magicka DPS charts.

    Also, I've specifically stated Bretons on Blue food, which is the exact same sustain as Dunmer on Gold food, which is equivalent to 0 Magicka recovered per second on Gold food.

    Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.

    The issue with Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons being really close is that if you flip the roles around, they would not be close at all. Dunmer are at the top for Stamina DPS (probably just behind Orcs), Bretons are still really potent healers. Altmer just have... nothing.

    Basically, there needs to be balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale, not just one single role.

    Another note from me:

    Every race has distinctive features now with a "seasonsing" on top. In my opinion we can create four categories:

    a) More resources (Stamina, Magicka, Health)
    b) More sustain (Regen, cost reduction, passives that result in a sustain gain)
    c) More damage/healing (Crit, Weapon/Spell damage)
    d) More utility (other, e.g. procs)

    Which brings the Magicka races to the following:

    Altmer
    Main: a (Magicka) + c (Spell Damage)
    Secondary: b (Stamina)

    Dunmer
    Main: a (Magicka/Stamina) + c (Spell Damage)
    Secondary: d (Fire resistance, Burning immunity)

    Khajiit
    Main: c (Weapon/Spell Crit)
    Secondary: a (Magicka/Stamina) + b (Magicka/Stamina/Health)

    Argonian
    Main: c (+6% healing done) + d (Health, Magicka, Stamina restore on potion usage; +Health, Disease resistance, Disease immunity)
    Secondary: a (Magicka)

    Breton
    Main: a (Magicka) + b (Cost reduction, Magicka recovery)
    Secondary: d (Spell resistance)

    When it comes to raw power, Altmer and Dunmer are on top (power).

    When it comes to highest sustain, Breton is on top (sustain).

    When it comes to versatility, Khajiit is on top (power + sustain).

    When it comes to utility, Argonian is on top (resources, sustain, utility).

    None of the races is useless and that's what parses (even yours) indicate.

    Ha-ha-ha, rofl, lmao, lol, i can't stop...
    mrwpbf9z27fh.jpg



    Sorry, so Argonian is comparable to other mag dps now?
  • Seraphayel
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    Sorry, so Argonian is comparable to other mag dps now?

    If you wouldn't have ignored the first part of my sentence which clearly refers Utility, then yes.

    Not everything in this game is about pure DPS.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I have updated the post with PTS v4.3.2 data and numbers.

    Not looking good. This first round of changes is a complete joke, I'll just be real here.

    Uhm besides a possible overestimating of the Khajiit crit chance the results look pretty fine. I don't see where the changes are a "complete joke".

    Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.

    The Altmer sustain passive has been reworked into a utility passive that restores their lowest resource. This passive now, by itself, is counter-intuitive to whatever you want to build on your Altmer, with the only feasible usage out of it being on tanks which prioritize high Stamina pools and high Magicka recovery, and even then that is a stretch.

    Dunmer were at the top for Stamina DPS and was really respectable for Magicka DPS for 4.3.1. They've just received a buff to their resources that put them almost exactly on par with Altmer for Magicka DPS, and even more powerful for their Stamina DPS. A hybrid race should not be at the top in terms of power for both categories.

    These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".
    Dunmer is not an hybrid race, hybrids do not work for PvE DD, they and Khajiit are versatile,
    The dunmer weapon damage is useless on an magic build and the stamina is utility like the Altmer stamina restore.
    For an stamina build both the magic and spell damage is useless. Same is true for Khajiit.

    The major thing missing in 4.3.2 is the CP changes to resources who did not get added because of bugs.
    This was stated in the patch notes for the Khajiit buff as Khajiit has less primary resources than other DD races.

    "With the introduction of CP scaling with the flat stats of the races, we made sure to make some minor adjustments so Khajiit wouldn't fall behind the other races. The bonus to the stealth..... "
    Had they seen Khajiit OP they would gotten some minor utility instead as return from the stealth reduction.

    This was also the reason for the Dunmer change and why Altmer was nerfed. Now you can say that the versatility should have an cost, see it as an minor bonus.

    The Altmer change was pretty stupid as its obvious unpopular, Had been smarter to just nerf magic return a bit if needed.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Khajiit is unarguably reliant on RNG and does in fact lack meaningful sustain. Breton pretty obviously has incredible sustain, and to say otherwise is very... odd considering you do present yourself as an end-game player.

    Altmer don’t have their sustain anymore, and their damage is matched quite easily by Bretons in 99% of fights due to their cost reduction passive which has far more effective recovery than a Khajiit could ever hope to match, and definitely more than an Altmer could ever dream of now.

    I’d advise you go look to these parses which explain and address the sustain concerns of the hardest hitters.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457935/stamina-magicka-raid-warhorn-dps-solo-sustain-dps-tests-graphs-with-cp-stat-boost-correction-4-3-2/p1

    He even says later on that the perfect uptimes replicates in the parses will almost never be achieved in a raid situation, even with the best teams, and he found Breton much more easy to parse with because their drain is far lower than any other race.

    Even just using elemental weapon three times in a 12s rotation, a Breton’s effective mag regen (60/s or 120 regen) matches and exceed Khajiit’s passive magicka regen, and that’s before accounting for literallly any other ability in that rotation.
    1. RNG doesn't mean anything as long as the fight is long enough, and even something as short as 2 minutes is long enough.

    2. Khajiit have 71 Magicka restored per second on Magicka Templars, and 77 Magicka restored per second on Magicka Nightblades, which is, again, a lot; just for comparison, Argonians with 4000 Magicka restored per potion use have effectively 88 Magicka restored per second. They are getting dangerously close to having as much sustain as Argonians do.

    3. Bretons have incredible sustain, yes, but I now have to clarify for the third time that a Breton on blue (bi-stat Health + Magicka) food has about the same sustain as Dunmer on gold food (Clockwork Citrus Filet). That's right, a Breton has about the same sustain (actually a tiny bit more) that a Clockwork Citrus Filet gives you. Odd indeed that people can't read.

    4. Yes, Bretons have more sustain if they are using gold food (IE Clockwork Citrus Filet), but given that I am parsing on the 6mil dummy, that is simply way too much sustain for them to even make good use of even without raid buffs and using my execute. The 6mil dummy, in my own experience, strikes the best balance between being an accurate parsing target in terms of mimicking trial bosses such as Ra Kotu, Varlariel, and the Mantikora, as well as preserving my own sanity in terms of not having to do consistent testing on the next highest dummy, which is the 25mil dummy. Once more, a Breton on blue bi-stat food has close enough sustain (actually a tiny tad more) to a Dunmer with gold food, with only one Spell Symmetry cast needed to fully kill the target skeleton using as much of their Magicka pool as possible without running out; the Khajiiti didn't need to use Spell Symmetry at all to fully kill the 6mi

    5. I've looked at those parses and I can easily tell you, right now, that those parses vary way too much for anyone to draw an accurate picture of what they look like, not to mention that the parser shifted HP around to balance the values without even considering the fact that raiders don't do that in score runs that matter. The charts may look pretty, but fact of the matter is that the data itself is inconsistent because person doing the parses is not able to replicate each parse close enough to each other, and therefore I can not, by any stretch of the imagination, take that data seriously.

    6. You don't do 12s rotations on Magicka. Rotations are typically 8s for Magicka, and 12s only on Stamina. If you are doing 12s rotations on Magicka, you are most likely doing something really, really wrong.
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    The one thing I have seen from your charts is that you - I don't know why - put too much emphasis on Crit in your testing. Maybe it's due to the class (MagPlar) or because you think it might be overall the most important thing but that's where I disagree. Crit chance is always random. So the 8% Crit from Khajiit and Shadow Mundus apply just with a specific percentage and not all the time whereas something like reduced costs / higher sustain / raw damage applies 100% of the time. So from that standpoint alone Altmer, Dunmer and the other max. resource + damage races are usually on top when it comes to raw damage.

    If we apply all of the benefits for Crit now it looks different and Khajiit is on top (which should be the case) but that's not happening all of the time and that's where the performance of Khajiit is totally fine in comparison to the other races.

    There is no issue with Altmer, Dunmer or Bretons. Two days ago every Altmer player was frantic that Breton will be the BiS race because [reasons], now the mood shifts towards Khajiit will be the BiS race because [reasons]. In two days Imperial will be the BiS race because of [reasons]. The only thing what I get out of these threads is angry Altmer players that are dissatisfied until Altmer will be the undisputed top because of [reasons].

    I mean Altmer have now a Stamina return passive which fits your argument of "there needs to be a balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale". The Altmer passive that I dislike is the reduced damage while casting/channeling - now that's useless for most classes. The Stamina proc is not.
    It appears that you do not understand the very fundamentals of crits and why they matter.

    Crit is extremely important. Over 60% of the damage in my parses came from critical hits, and this is purely from a non-crit-based build; imagine how it's going to be in a crit-based build.

    It is not exclusive to certain classes either either; I've posted charts that even removes the 10% Crit Damage Templars get, and Khajiiti are still at the top.

    The thing is that, given a long enough fight, or given enough fights, critical chance is always going to normalize to its default value. Even in shorter fights such as the 2-minute fights on the 6mil dummy, the damage from critical hits are always consistently within a 5% range, and only 8% at the max.

    I'll put it this way: you're saying that coin flips aren't fair because it's RNG that drives whether they land heads or tails, even though you know that the chance of them landing on either heads or tails is 50%. You're saying it's not fair because there is a chance that it will land on heads 75% of the time and tails 25% of the time, and while that is possible, the more you do it, the closer and closer it will get to 50%/50%.

    That is the inherent misconception you have with RNG, that the fact that anything is possible with RNG makes them unfair, when realistically, with enough iterations, with enough coin flips, with enough sources of damage in a single fight, that RNG will normalize, the coin will land on heads 50% of the time and tails 50% of the time, and among all of my damage, 51.8% (or whatever my Spell Crit is) of them will crit.

    Just to comment on the Altmer-Breton argument, those claims were done on dubious grounds with inconsistent and inaccurate data to back them up. I do not trust them; I trust my own testing that has been meticulously crafted to eliminate as much human error and RNG influence as possible.

    I don't care which race is BiS as long as they're not incredibly overpowered and no race is avoided for their inability to do damage. Heck, I'm fine with Altmer being BiS for Magicka as long as the other Magicka races are close behind.

    The thing is that the Altmer do not have a Stamina return passive; they have a passive that returns their lowest resource, meaning that it will be useless 99.9% of the time and meh the remaining 0.1% of the time. With a Stamina return passive, they would at least get Stamina sustain for their Stamina DPS build, but the moment they spec into a Stamina DPS build they'd get Magicka back instead. Trust me, it is very, very useless. Honestly, it would just be better if they had an actual Stamina return passive that restores their Stamina regardless of their builds.
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Another note from me:

    Every race has distinctive features now with a "seasonsing" on top. In my opinion we can create four categories:

    a) More resources (Stamina, Magicka, Health)
    b) More sustain (Regen, cost reduction, passives that result in a sustain gain)
    c) More damage/healing (Crit, Weapon/Spell damage)
    d) More utility (other, e.g. procs)

    When it comes to raw power, Altmer and Dunmer are on top (power).

    When it comes to highest sustain, Breton is on top (sustain).

    When it comes to versatility, Khajiit is on top (power + sustain).

    When it comes to utility, Argonian is on top (resources, sustain, utility).

    None of the races is useless and that's what parses (even yours) indicate.
    This is not a realistic way of breaking down the roles within the game. I'll just put it this way: there's a stat-ceiling for damage-dealing, and there's none of that for any other role.

    What I mean by that is that an amazing player will be able to tank and PvP to the same effectiveness on an Altmer as they can on an Argonian, given that the player has enough skill to pull it off, because those roles depend mostly on player skill rather than stats. The same amazing player cannot do the same for DPSing because those are inherently limited by stats, not skill.

    Here's how it is more clearly broken down:

    a) Stamina Damage + Sustain (Max Stamina, Weapon Damage, Weapon Crit, Stamina Recovery)
    b) Magicka Damage + Sustain (Max Magicka, Spell Damage, Spell Crit, Magicka Recovery)
    c) Utility (Max Health, Healing Done, survival stuff)

    The key here is that a) and b) can be swapped for more c), but a) cannot be swapped for b), b) cannot be swapped for a), and c) cannot be swapped for either a) or b). This is based on how the roles actually work as I've just described above.

    For example, if a Redguard wants to tank, sure, they're not the best race for it, but due to their additional Stamina pool, they are able to put fewer points into Stamina and more points into Health to better match an Imperial, therefore converting Stamina to Health, because utility roles make use of Health and at least one additional resource. Their racial passives don't exactly limit their ability to tank effectively.

    However, damage roles do not use any utility resources, and therefore any utility passives they get cannot be converted into something useful for them; for example, if a Nord wants to be a Stamina DPS, they don't have anything to DPS with other than a measly 1500 Stamina and no sustain to speak of, and there is no way they can convert the Health they have into extra Stamina that they can make use of. This limits the scope of their ability to do anything other than tanking.

    So, in your case, raw power takes precedence over others, because any type of raw resource from either Stamina or Magicka can be converted into utility; you can make use of Altmer Spell Damage to increase your healing power and spec more of your gear towards Magicka sustain, and you can make use of Dunmer resources for your tanking purposes. Utility just isn't as flexible or as worth it; the Healing Done passive on Argonians do nothing for them outside of a Healing role, and the Max Health that Imperials have don't really do anything to help them do damage.

    So, when it comes to raw power, Khajiit, Altmer, and Dunmer are on top.

    When it comes to sustain, Bretons are on top.

    When it comes to utility, objectively the worst kind of thing to have due to their limitations, Argonians, are, of course, on top, and even then Khajiiti and Dunmer are encroaching on that territory.

    Let's talk how useful races are.

    DPS: Khajiit, Altmer, Orc, Dunmer, Breton, all of them leaps and bounds ahead of Argonians

    Tanking: Nords for ultigen, Imperials because they have a much superior Health pool and a tri-stat resource regen to rival Argonians

    Healing: Bretons, hands down; even on Live their 3% reduced Magicka cost is already putting them slightly ahead of Argonians, so their 8% reduced Magicka cost in addition to the Argonian Magicka sustain nerf makes it a no-brainer

    So yeah, Argonians just aren't useful anymore. Maybe they'll make tanking slightly easier but that advantage is so easily overshadowed by Nords, Imperials, and even Khajiiti that they're not even desirable.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 10, 2019 9:18PM
    Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

    17 Argonians

    6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
  • Seraphayel
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    I agree on most points with you in your latest post @HatchetHaro , but I still think you overestimate Khajiit and underestimate Argonian performance. Not everything in this game must be broken down to raw numbers or a DPS net gain.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • HatchetHaro
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I agree on most points with you in your latest post @HatchetHaro , but I still think you overestimate Khajiit and underestimate Argonian performance. Not everything in this game must be broken down to raw numbers or a DPS net gain.

    I already have numbers to prove that Khajiiti performance is substantially higher than any other Magicka race, and Argonian performance is far too low. Breaking things down to raw numbers is the best way to prove it in a controlled environment, and I can tell you this: a DPS net gain is always going to be more desirable than any utility differences because utility differences can easily be replaced through speccing differently but any DPS difference is completely lost, not to mention that the grand majority of this game consists of players playing DPS.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 10, 2019 9:15PM
    Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

    17 Argonians

    6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Those are your numbers. They're fine but there are other numbers that show that the four Magicka races are almost on par, every excelling in slightly different environments. If there are differences, they are hardly noticeable. Khajiit are not overperforming in the other parses, just in yours and not even that much - I mean even a 1.5% difference that it might be in your tests is not much when we factor in rng (yes, rng again). I'm thankful for everyone who contributes to this discussion with own numbers and parses so thanks for that.

    If Argonians come close to a performance of the other four races they must drop one of their utility racials and I don't know if that should be the case. Measuring everything towards DPS might be the easiest way (and even if most players play DPS), but it's neither the only nor the best way to prove the usefulness of any race.
    Edited by Seraphayel on February 10, 2019 9:26PM
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • nsmurfer
    nsmurfer
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    I think we are on the same page. Except, you are talking about the class in which Khajiit is the top DPS. Liko, @susmitds , streamers all got the same result with Khajiit in being the Templar DPS. The very same testers got very different results in MagNB. susmitds even rated Khajiit being the top templar DPS and I read in some post, he stated that one of his raid teammates got like 500 higher DPS on khajiit stamplar compared to orc/dunmer in 4.3.1. Khajiit was the BiS new Templar DPS on both Mag/Stam Templar before these changes.

    Your mistake is thinking Magplar DPS = magicka DPS in general. it is not though.
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