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DPS Data and Analysis on Racial Passives through all PTS cycles (UPDATED with 4.3.3 Magplar data)

  • Somewhere
    Somewhere
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Magplar might not be the best spec to determine overall magdps potential because Templar’s crits deal 10% more damage than other classes, so of course Khajiit as a high crit race will top the rest.

    MagDK and mag sorc (while not particularly strong) don’t have innate crit synergies that heavily favor Khajiit crit bonus from the get-go, so they might be a better indicator of dps balance

    That being said though, Siroria can probably be swapped out for Scathing Mage on a Khajiit to almost the same effectiveness and doesn’t require staying in any particular area for the spell damage.

    I did testing myself with non-pet sorcerer with Argonian, Breton, Dunmer, Altmer, and Khajiit. All of my runs were self buffed and I found similar results: Khajiit has the highest damage, just barely above Altmer.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Playnice wrote: »
    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
    Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.

    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.

    CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Playnice wrote: »
    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
    Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.

    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.

    CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
    This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.
    Piercing Spear: increase your Critical Damage by 10%

    Its the Dunmer magDK effect, racials fit perfectly with class.
    My tips and probably ZoS response is changing Piercing Spear as they don't want an class=race setting.
    Yes you still get this because of sustain but its more spread out, Dunmer and Khajiit do better in classes with more build in sustain.
    Yes some chance this go life and get nerfed later.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    zaria wrote: »
    Playnice wrote: »
    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
    Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.

    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.

    CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
    This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.
    Piercing Spear: increase your Critical Damage by 10%

    Its the Dunmer magDK effect, racials fit perfectly with class.
    My tips and probably ZoS response is changing Piercing Spear as they don't want an class=race setting.
    Yes you still get this because of sustain but its more spread out, Dunmer and Khajiit do better in classes with more build in sustain.
    Yes some chance this go life and get nerfed later.

    I don't understand what you're getting at here.

    I know Templars have an additional 10% Crit Damage. That Crit Damage is additive to other sources of Crit Damage, so couple that with 56 points into Elfborn and Minor Force, Templars end up with 190% Crit Damage while other classes such as Sorcerers and Dragonknights are stuck at 180%.

    In the spreadsheet that I have posted (twice), I've recalculated the results that I've gotten to see what the numbers would be at if Piercing Spear was not unlocked, so basically scaling the 190% Crit Damage down to 180%. Even after the recalculations, Khajiit still came out on top.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    zaria wrote: »
    Playnice wrote: »
    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
    Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.

    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.

    CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
    This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.
    Piercing Spear: increase your Critical Damage by 10%

    Its the Dunmer magDK effect, racials fit perfectly with class.
    My tips and probably ZoS response is changing Piercing Spear as they don't want an class=race setting.
    Yes you still get this because of sustain but its more spread out, Dunmer and Khajiit do better in classes with more build in sustain.
    Yes some chance this go life and get nerfed later.

    I don't understand what you're getting at here.

    I know Templars have an additional 10% Crit Damage. That Crit Damage is additive to other sources of Crit Damage, so couple that with 56 points into Elfborn and Minor Force, Templars end up with 190% Crit Damage while other classes such as Sorcerers and Dragonknights are stuck at 180%.

    In the spreadsheet that I have posted (twice), I've recalculated the results that I've gotten to see what the numbers would be at if Piercing Spear was not unlocked, so basically scaling the 190% Crit Damage down to 180%. Even after the recalculations, Khajiit still came out on top.
    Putting less points into elfborn will reduce the effect of Khajiit racials, not eliminate it. the +10% damage from templar is still there.
    Have you tried parses on other classes?
    Again the solution is to change Elfborn.
    Or give Khajiit lower crit and more sustain. I would benefit from that.
    Edited by zaria on January 27, 2019 9:39PM
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    zaria wrote: »
    zaria wrote: »
    Playnice wrote: »
    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
    Actually responded to the exact same critique about testing on Templar, so posting it here again.

    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.

    CP serves as a good starting point for comparisons. Besides, the only CP tree that affects the racial damage difference numbers would be Elfborn for Magicka users, so I put 56 points into it which is pretty normal practice for most damage-dealers. The range from what I've seen is somewhere between 44 and 66 points into Elfborn, which is an additive 17% - 22% Crit Damage. Once more, to put your mind at ease, we can extract the non-crit DPS from any parsing numbers we get as long as we know the Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and recalculate the damage with the modified Crit values to simulate different scenarios accurately.
    This is an templar thing, templar has an crit damage buff who makes very good for Khajiit with its increased crit chance.
    Piercing Spear: increase your Critical Damage by 10%

    Its the Dunmer magDK effect, racials fit perfectly with class.
    My tips and probably ZoS response is changing Piercing Spear as they don't want an class=race setting.
    Yes you still get this because of sustain but its more spread out, Dunmer and Khajiit do better in classes with more build in sustain.
    Yes some chance this go life and get nerfed later.

    I don't understand what you're getting at here.

    I know Templars have an additional 10% Crit Damage. That Crit Damage is additive to other sources of Crit Damage, so couple that with 56 points into Elfborn and Minor Force, Templars end up with 190% Crit Damage while other classes such as Sorcerers and Dragonknights are stuck at 180%.

    In the spreadsheet that I have posted (twice), I've recalculated the results that I've gotten to see what the numbers would be at if Piercing Spear was not unlocked, so basically scaling the 190% Crit Damage down to 180%. Even after the recalculations, Khajiit still came out on top.
    Putting less points into elfborn will reduce the effect of Khajiit racials, not eliminate it. the +10% damage from templar is still there.
    Have you tried parses on other classes?
    Again the solution is to change Elfborn.
    Or give Khajiit lower crit and more sustain. I would benefit from that.

    1. I never stated that putting fewer points into Elfborn would eliminate the bonus you get from Khajiiti racials. I don't know where you got that from but I never said it. I also know putting fewer points into Elfborn would make Khajiiti racials give less of a bonus.

    The reason why I put 56 points into Elfborn is that it is a good middle ground of however many points people put into Elfborn, which ranges between 44 and 66, so +17% Crit Damage to +22% Crit Damage. Also, 56 points into Elfborn gives a nice and even +20% Crit Damage, which is a cleaner number to use for calculations overall.

    Besides, a difference of 5% Crit Damage from changing points in Elfborn is not going to affect the damage differences between races by any significant amount; as I have already demonstrated twice that difference in my Templar 190% Crit Damage to 180% Crit Damage conversion.

    2. Once more, I know about the +10% Crit Damage from Templar, and yet again, in the spreadsheet that I have posted twice in the comments, I have done calculations that eliminate that +10% Crit Damage so you can see the reduced numbers without the Templar +10% Crit Damage.

    For the third time, I have to post this image. I have done the testing, the calculations all check out, and I know what I am talking about.
    gmYAW77.png
    In case you can't read it, Khajiiti on 180% Crit Damage is 6.172% more effective than Nords, and Khajiiti on 190% Crit Damage is 6.564% more effective than Nords. So yes, I know their racial effectiveness scales with more Crit Damage.

    3. Yes, I've tried parsing on Magicka Sorcerers, but that was during Murkmire and, honestly, I can't be arsed. Yet again, I have to repeat myself: you can get an accurate approximation of the racial damage differences on different classes simply by tweaking the numbers that I've gotten on my Magicka Templar parses. The abilities still scale the same way and since there are no longer any +% max Magicka passives on races, the discrepancies in scaling between classes are going to be much less than before.

    So, at risk of repeating myself, I have no idea what your problem is with my testing and calculations. Every single thing you've said, I have already taken into consideration and factored into my calculations long before you started criticizing what I didn't even claim.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on January 28, 2019 4:42AM
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    I have updated the post with data from a recent testing session in PTS v4.3.1. While there were no racial changes for v4.3.1, I still needed to redo my testing to test out my new scripts (inb4 "hurr durr cheats") and testing methodology.

    All this should help me achieve more consistent and reliable results in future testing.
  • sneakymitchell
    sneakymitchell
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    @HatchetHaro The nord is going bring out nice ulti regen where there is a lot of AoE damage happening. Combined with war machine with a nb or sorc. High up time for major slayer for DPS group. The ulti regen going be nice on a DK for more resource return.
    Edited by sneakymitchell on February 3, 2019 9:45PM
    NA-Xbox one- Ebonheart Pact- Nord Dk Stam
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    @HatchetHaro The nord is going bring out nice ulti regen where there is a lot of AoE damage happening. Combined with war machine with a nb or sorc. High up time for major slayer for DPS group. The ulti regen going be nice on a DK for more resource return.

    Only when you take damage, and in the case of trials, you rarely do take sustained damage for any extended period of time.

    But okay, let's just assume that the Nord is a crappy dps and is constantly taking damage.

    Let's talk War Machine. Incapacitating Strike costs 70 ulti, and ulti regen is 3 per second while in-combat while taking damage or attacking with light or heavy attacks. This means that a NB can proc War Machine every 24 seconds, with a 10s uptime on the Major Slayer buff. This is effectively 6.25% more damage for the NB and 2 groupmates for the entire duration. Let's say the NB is a Nord; Nords have effectively 0.5 extra ultimate regen per second, so they can proc Major Slayer with Incap every 20 seconds, effectively 7.5% more damage for the NB and 2 groupmates for the entire duration. If you look at the damage difference, it is 1.25% extra damage per player, or in total 3.75% more damage for all three players. However, being on a race such as Redguard or Khajiit means that they deal about 6% more damage than Nords.

    So, you will always gain more out of a viable Stamina DPS than a Nord, whether it is for proccing War Machine or not.

    What this about DKs then?

    DK resource return is 46 per ulti spent, and DKs use Standard of Might (or Elemental Rage) which costs 250 ulti. Upon casting an ultimate, the DK gains 11500 Magicka and Stamina. Based on the base 3/s ulti regen, this means that DKs can cast Standard every 84 seconds, and get effectively 136.9/s Magicka and Stamina regen. Nords, however, can cast the same ulti every 72 seconds, and get effectively 159.7/s Magicka and Stamina regen. The difference is only 22.8/s Magicka and Stamina regen, only about a quarter of what Argonians have.

    So the resource return based on that Ultimate generation is minimal as well.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 4, 2019 2:54PM
  • sneakymitchell
    sneakymitchell
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    @HatchetHaro Still having that ulti would remind some on the old ulti system. But the nord version is the lesser power version. It’s fine where it’s at with the passive. Still makes nord unquie though getting better ulti than the rest of the races than only having a high stat pool with some defenses. Also if it’s proc chance then it would be like having a small version of blood spawn. This ulti is like having small version of werewolf hide.
    Edited by sneakymitchell on February 4, 2019 1:54AM
    NA-Xbox one- Ebonheart Pact- Nord Dk Stam
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    I have updated the post with PTS v4.3.2 data and numbers.

    Not looking good. This first round of changes is a complete joke, I'll just be real here.
  • vesselwiththepestle
    So Bretons are the weakest Magicka DD race now and not Altmer?

    What's wrong about Altmer, Dunmer and Bretons so close? It seems very balanced to me.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.

    These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".

    No they weren't?

    Well if you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then.

    Shall I post this again?
    y2yEmNi.png

    I have to make this clear: a damage difference of even 1% is a lot, and Khajiiti are now dealing 7.5% more damage than races with no Magicka passives. Even Altmer and Dunmer were scaled too high already.

    Fact of the matter is that end-game raiders will min-max any and all stats, and Khajiiti dealing a full 1.1% more damage than Altmer, the next best race, means that no one will run any other race for Magicka DPS. Compared to Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons (on Blue food), not only do Khajiit have more damage, they also have much better sustain (70 Magicka per second just on Magplar, compared to... 0 on Altmer, 0 on Dunmer, and 0 on Breton).

    This is not balanced at all.

    Let me just copy paste my response I edited after you already quoted me:

    No they weren't? They are in your examples because you're giving crit chance too much value (well that's just my opinion here).

    If you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then. Except they're not and your numbers even prove you and your mates wrong. Besides "overperforming" Khajiit due to crit Magicka races seem incredibly balanced.


    By the way, much better sustain? *lol*
    What about the Spell Damage Altmer & Dunmer have and Khajiit don't? Or the incredible cost reduction of Bretons, Khajiit don't have?
    Edited by Seraphayel on February 10, 2019 4:36PM
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.

    These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".

    No they weren't?

    Well if you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then.

    Shall I post this again?
    y2yEmNi.png

    I have to make this clear: a damage difference of even 1% is a lot, and Khajiiti are now dealing 7.5% more damage than races with no Magicka passives. Even Altmer and Dunmer were scaled too high already.

    Fact of the matter is that end-game raiders will min-max any and all stats, and Khajiiti dealing a full 1.1% more damage than Altmer, the next best race, means that no one will run any other race for Magicka DPS. Compared to Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons (on Blue food), not only do Khajiit have more damage, they also have much better sustain (70 Magicka per second just on Magplar, compared to... 0 on Altmer, 0 on Dunmer, and 0 on Breton).

    This is not balanced at all.

    Let me just copy paste my response I edited after you already quoted me:

    No they weren't? They are in your examples because you're giving crit chance too much value (well that's just my opinion here).

    If you and your mates say they are a complete joke I have to surrender, they must be a complete joke then. Except they're not and your numbers even prove you and your mates wrong. Besides "overperforming" Khajiit due to crit Magicka races seem incredibly balanced.


    By the way, much better sustain? *lol*
    What about the Spell Damage Altmer & Dunmer have and Khajiit don't? Or the incredible cost reduction of Bretons, Khajiit don't have?
    Critical Chance is a very important stat, especially in PvE, since they scale so well with certain buffs such as Major Force. 8% Critical Chance, by itself, is a 4.5%-5% damage boost.

    If you don't care about it, then you must be a PvPr, and that is understandable since PvP is based much more on skill than stats.

    And yes, much better sustain. 70 resources per second is nothing to laugh at, and as you have obviously seen from my charts, Khajiit don't need the Spell and Weapon damage to still be at the top of the Magicka DPS charts.

    Also, I've specifically stated Bretons on Blue food, which is the exact same sustain as Dunmer on Gold food, which is equivalent to 0 Magicka recovered per second on Gold food.
    So Bretons are the weakest Magicka DD race now and not Altmer?

    What's wrong about Altmer, Dunmer and Bretons so close? It seems very balanced to me.
    Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.

    The issue with Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons being really close is that if you flip the roles around, they would not be close at all. Dunmer are at the top for Stamina DPS (probably just behind Orcs), Bretons are still really potent healers. Altmer just have... nothing.

    Basically, there needs to be balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale, not just one single role.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 10, 2019 6:26PM
  • Kesstryl
    Kesstryl
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    I do think the races are moving in the right direction of being closer in terms of balance, however, they are not there yet. Some metas have simply been shifted, and that's not cool. I'm also not cool with some of the PvP race perks that only benefit PvP (looking at Bosmer and Altmer). I do like how some races are opened up to going in either a magika or stamina build like khajiit and dunmer. More races should have this to diversify builds.
    HEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts!

  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    ✭✭✭
    And yes, much better sustain. 70 resources per second is nothing to laugh at, and as you have obviously seen from my charts, Khajiit don't need the Spell and Weapon damage to still be at the top of the Magicka DPS charts.

    Also, I've specifically stated Bretons on Blue food, which is the exact same sustain as Dunmer on Gold food, which is equivalent to 0 Magicka recovered per second on Gold food.

    Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.

    The issue with Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons being really close is that if you flip the roles around, they would not be close at all. Dunmer are at the top for Stamina DPS (probably just behind Orcs), Bretons are still really potent healers. Altmer just have... nothing.

    Basically, there needs to be balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale, not just one single role.

    The one thing I have seen from your charts is that you - I don't know why - put too much emphasis on Crit in your testing. Maybe it's due to the class (MagPlar) or because you think it might be overall the most important thing but that's where I disagree. Crit chance is always random. So the 8% Crit from Khajiit and Shadow Mundus apply just with a specific percentage and not all the time whereas something like reduced costs / higher sustain / raw damage applies 100% of the time. So from that standpoint alone Altmer, Dunmer and the other max. resource + damage races are usually on top when it comes to raw damage.

    If we apply all of the benefits for Crit now it looks different and Khajiit is on top (which should be the case) but that's not happening all of the time and that's where the performance of Khajiit is totally fine in comparison to the other races.

    There is no issue with Altmer, Dunmer or Bretons. Two days ago every Altmer player was frantic that Breton will be the BiS race because [reasons], now the mood shifts towards Khajiit will be the BiS race because [reasons]. In two days Imperial will be the BiS race because of [reasons]. The only thing what I get out of these threads is angry Altmer players that are dissatisfied until Altmer will be the undisputed top because of [reasons].

    I mean Altmer have now a Stamina return passive which fits your argument of "there needs to be a balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale". The Altmer passive that I dislike is the reduced damage while casting/channeling - now that's useless for most classes. The Stamina proc is not.
    Edited by Seraphayel on February 10, 2019 7:57PM
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    ✭✭✭
    And yes, much better sustain. 70 resources per second is nothing to laugh at, and as you have obviously seen from my charts, Khajiit don't need the Spell and Weapon damage to still be at the top of the Magicka DPS charts.

    Also, I've specifically stated Bretons on Blue food, which is the exact same sustain as Dunmer on Gold food, which is equivalent to 0 Magicka recovered per second on Gold food.

    Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.

    The issue with Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons being really close is that if you flip the roles around, they would not be close at all. Dunmer are at the top for Stamina DPS (probably just behind Orcs), Bretons are still really potent healers. Altmer just have... nothing.

    Basically, there needs to be balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale, not just one single role.

    Another note from me:

    Every race has distinctive features now with a "seasonsing" on top. In my opinion we can create four categories:

    a) More resources (Stamina, Magicka, Health)
    b) More sustain (Regen, cost reduction, passives that result in a sustain gain)
    c) More damage/healing (Crit, Weapon/Spell damage)
    d) More utility (other, e.g. procs)

    Which brings the Magicka races to the following:

    Altmer
    Main: a (Magicka) + c (Spell Damage)
    Secondary: b (Stamina)

    Dunmer
    Main: a (Magicka/Stamina) + c (Spell Damage)
    Secondary: d (Fire resistance, Burning immunity)

    Khajiit
    Main: c (Weapon/Spell Crit)
    Secondary: a (Magicka/Stamina) + b (Magicka/Stamina/Health)

    Argonian
    Main: c (+6% healing done) + d (Health, Magicka, Stamina restore on potion usage; +Health, Disease resistance, Disease immunity)
    Secondary: a (Magicka)

    Breton
    Main: a (Magicka) + b (Cost reduction, Magicka recovery)
    Secondary: d (Spell resistance)

    When it comes to raw power, Altmer and Dunmer are on top (power).

    When it comes to highest sustain, Breton is on top (sustain).

    When it comes to versatility, Khajiit is on top (power + sustain).

    When it comes to utility, Argonian is on top (resources, sustain, utility).

    None of the races is useless and that's what parses (even yours) indicate.
    Edited by Seraphayel on February 10, 2019 7:59PM
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    And yes, much better sustain. 70 resources per second is nothing to laugh at, and as you have obviously seen from my charts, Khajiit don't need the Spell and Weapon damage to still be at the top of the Magicka DPS charts.

    Also, I've specifically stated Bretons on Blue food, which is the exact same sustain as Dunmer on Gold food, which is equivalent to 0 Magicka recovered per second on Gold food.

    Bretons have their sustain, which makes them much more suited for utility roles such as healing, and that is where I suspect they will be at. They are still really potent for Magicka DPS, and are basically better than Argonians even for Healing.

    The issue with Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons being really close is that if you flip the roles around, they would not be close at all. Dunmer are at the top for Stamina DPS (probably just behind Orcs), Bretons are still really potent healers. Altmer just have... nothing.

    Basically, there needs to be balance between Magicka and Stamina DPS and sustain, as well as utility on a smaller scale, not just one single role.

    Another note from me:

    Every race has distinctive features now with a "seasonsing" on top. In my opinion we can create four categories:

    a) More resources (Stamina, Magicka, Health)
    b) More sustain (Regen, cost reduction, passives that result in a sustain gain)
    c) More damage/healing (Crit, Weapon/Spell damage)
    d) More utility (other, e.g. procs)

    Which brings the Magicka races to the following:

    Altmer
    Main: a (Magicka) + c (Spell Damage)
    Secondary: b (Stamina)

    Dunmer
    Main: a (Magicka/Stamina) + c (Spell Damage)
    Secondary: d (Fire resistance, Burning immunity)

    Khajiit
    Main: c (Weapon/Spell Crit)
    Secondary: a (Magicka/Stamina) + b (Magicka/Stamina/Health)

    Argonian
    Main: c (+6% healing done) + d (Health, Magicka, Stamina restore on potion usage; +Health, Disease resistance, Disease immunity)
    Secondary: a (Magicka)

    Breton
    Main: a (Magicka) + b (Cost reduction, Magicka recovery)
    Secondary: d (Spell resistance)

    When it comes to raw power, Altmer and Dunmer are on top (power).

    When it comes to highest sustain, Breton is on top (sustain).

    When it comes to versatility, Khajiit is on top (power + sustain).

    When it comes to utility, Argonian is on top (resources, sustain, utility).

    None of the races is useless and that's what parses (even yours) indicate.

    Ha-ha-ha, rofl, lmao, lol, i can't stop...
    mrwpbf9z27fh.jpg



    Sorry, so Argonian is comparable to other mag dps now?
    Don Quixote against the cookie-cutters
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Sorry, so Argonian is comparable to other mag dps now?

    If you wouldn't have ignored the first part of my sentence which clearly refers Utility, then yes.

    Not everything in this game is about pure DPS.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I have updated the post with PTS v4.3.2 data and numbers.

    Not looking good. This first round of changes is a complete joke, I'll just be real here.

    Uhm besides a possible overestimating of the Khajiit crit chance the results look pretty fine. I don't see where the changes are a "complete joke".

    Khajiiti Critical Chance being "'possibly overestimated" is a gross understatement. The changes gave them an additional 125 Magicka, Stamina, and Health, which only made them more powerful for Magicka DPS. The joke here is that they were already leaps and bounds more powerful than other races even before that change.

    The Altmer sustain passive has been reworked into a utility passive that restores their lowest resource. This passive now, by itself, is counter-intuitive to whatever you want to build on your Altmer, with the only feasible usage out of it being on tanks which prioritize high Stamina pools and high Magicka recovery, and even then that is a stretch.

    Dunmer were at the top for Stamina DPS and was really respectable for Magicka DPS for 4.3.1. They've just received a buff to their resources that put them almost exactly on par with Altmer for Magicka DPS, and even more powerful for their Stamina DPS. A hybrid race should not be at the top in terms of power for both categories.

    These changes are a complete joke. Me and my raid pals were actually discussing the changes and we all agreed that these changes were a "complete joke". You can ask any raider and they would confirm that these changes are a "complete joke".
    Dunmer is not an hybrid race, hybrids do not work for PvE DD, they and Khajiit are versatile,
    The dunmer weapon damage is useless on an magic build and the stamina is utility like the Altmer stamina restore.
    For an stamina build both the magic and spell damage is useless. Same is true for Khajiit.

    The major thing missing in 4.3.2 is the CP changes to resources who did not get added because of bugs.
    This was stated in the patch notes for the Khajiit buff as Khajiit has less primary resources than other DD races.

    "With the introduction of CP scaling with the flat stats of the races, we made sure to make some minor adjustments so Khajiit wouldn't fall behind the other races. The bonus to the stealth..... "
    Had they seen Khajiit OP they would gotten some minor utility instead as return from the stealth reduction.

    This was also the reason for the Dunmer change and why Altmer was nerfed. Now you can say that the versatility should have an cost, see it as an minor bonus.

    The Altmer change was pretty stupid as its obvious unpopular, Had been smarter to just nerf magic return a bit if needed.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    I agree on most points with you in your latest post @HatchetHaro , but I still think you overestimate Khajiit and underestimate Argonian performance. Not everything in this game must be broken down to raw numbers or a DPS net gain.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I agree on most points with you in your latest post @HatchetHaro , but I still think you overestimate Khajiit and underestimate Argonian performance. Not everything in this game must be broken down to raw numbers or a DPS net gain.

    I already have numbers to prove that Khajiiti performance is substantially higher than any other Magicka race, and Argonian performance is far too low. Breaking things down to raw numbers is the best way to prove it in a controlled environment, and I can tell you this: a DPS net gain is always going to be more desirable than any utility differences because utility differences can easily be replaced through speccing differently but any DPS difference is completely lost, not to mention that the grand majority of this game consists of players playing DPS.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 10, 2019 9:15PM
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Those are your numbers. They're fine but there are other numbers that show that the four Magicka races are almost on par, every excelling in slightly different environments. If there are differences, they are hardly noticeable. Khajiit are not overperforming in the other parses, just in yours and not even that much - I mean even a 1.5% difference that it might be in your tests is not much when we factor in rng (yes, rng again). I'm thankful for everyone who contributes to this discussion with own numbers and parses so thanks for that.

    If Argonians come close to a performance of the other four races they must drop one of their utility racials and I don't know if that should be the case. Measuring everything towards DPS might be the easiest way (and even if most players play DPS), but it's neither the only nor the best way to prove the usefulness of any race.
    Edited by Seraphayel on February 10, 2019 9:26PM
  • nsmurfer
    nsmurfer
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    I think we are on the same page. Except, you are talking about the class in which Khajiit is the top DPS. Liko, @susmitds , streamers all got the same result with Khajiit in being the Templar DPS. The very same testers got very different results in MagNB. susmitds even rated Khajiit being the top templar DPS and I read in some post, he stated that one of his raid teammates got like 500 higher DPS on khajiit stamplar compared to orc/dunmer in 4.3.1. Khajiit was the BiS new Templar DPS on both Mag/Stam Templar before these changes.

    Your mistake is thinking Magplar DPS = magicka DPS in general. it is not though.
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