Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
Can ZOS explain why Altmer is the lowest magicka DPS?
-
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Except no one said it was necessary to nerf altmers nor did they ask for nerfs. And the term mathematician doesnt even make sense in the context u used it. Sorry bud, you are not bright enough to be able to insult me.MLGProPlayer wrote: »
You got exposed. Get over it. Feel free to keep moving the goalposts now and further embarrass urself. No issue with me.Edited by pieratsos on February 9, 2019 7:49AM4 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And where is the infamous 6,5 stat reference? Altmer is 5,5 at most.
I do not take into consideration the 5% mitigation while casting. Seriously, what will be the uptime on it? 0% on dk, warden and nightblade, some small % on a sorcerer from occasional dark conversion. Only templar realisticaly benefits from it which is only 20% of all classes and you don't spend 24/7 sweeping.2 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Except no one said it was necessary to nerf altmers nor did they ask for nerfs. And the term mathematician doesnt even make sense in the context u used it. Sorry bud, you are not bright enough to be able to insult me.MLGProPlayer wrote: »
You got exposed. Get over it. Feel free to keep moving the goalposts now and further embarrass urself. No issue with me.
U r rite, u got me. Great retort.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 9, 2019 1:33PM0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »I offered to end it, but you wanted to continue!
Skyrim:
Altmer
+ 50 Magicka
+ 10 Illusion
+ 5 Alteration
+ 5 Destruction
+ 5 Enchanting
+ 5 Restoration
+ Faster Magicka Regeneration (Highborn)
Breton
+ 25% Magic Resist
+ 10 Conjuration
+ 5 Alchemy
+ 5 Alteration
+ 5 Restoration
+ 5 Speech
+ Spell Absorbtion (Dragonskin)
Altmer = All magic
Breton = Mostly magic + Speech + Alchemy
In-game description (Skyrim, the most recent Elder Scrolls game that is not limited by MMO balancing concerns)
"high elves are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races."
I am out!
You can let it rest.
If anyone claims that Altmer are not the most gifted in magic, lore wise, they have no idea. And using Battlespire as a reference, this has to be a joke.
Bretons are halfbloods between the Aldmer and the savage nedic, primal humans. It is only thanks to the powerful Aldmeri blood, that Bretons are gifted this way. Their blood is impure, while the Altmer still possess the primal aldmeri power. So if even a halfblood is good with magic, how strong will a pureblood be ?
There is litereally not a single indicator that Bretons could keep up with Altmer when it comes to magical affinity.
This is simply an example of a very bad informed opinion. Let's try to make a better assesment of the magicka affinity of Altmer and Bretons relying only on lore.
Some forgotten or entirely ignored nuances are required to truly evaluate the magicka performance of the races. Use of Magicka in Elder Scrolls is divided in many disciplines and one of them, spellcasting, has traditionally had seven schools: Destruction, Restoration, Conjuration, Alteration, Illusion, Mysticism and Thaumaturgy. So we should look to every one of these fields to compare the races. Doing so through lore and the initial bonuses to skills from Morrowind it is clear that the only discipline in which Altmer consistently surpass Bretons is Destruction. It's just a matter of fact as well that Bretons not only aren't inferior to Altmer in the rest of magic schools, but even are better in Conjuration and Restoration. That Bretons are the best conjurers is well established in lore and I admit that their mastery of Restoration can be argued since Skyrim, in which they are equals, but it's the only exception.
So, yes, Altmer are the most innate magicka gifted race, but that doesn't mean that they are the most powerful magicka users. It's well known that Bretons have inherited some of this affinity and relying in their intelligence and willpower they are capable of overcome the gap with Altmer and even excel in some disciplines related with magic. Including Alchemy, Enchanting and, of course, Necromancy, mastered by Bretons due to ther ability with summoning. Though Altmer, consequently, have always had greater pools of magicka, Bretons have enjoyed as well bonus to their magicka and have always bested Altmer in its regeneration capability. To sum up, Bretons are powerful with a more indirect or defensive use of magic, I would say, by no means weaker. Simply put, they are different.
Now, translating all this to the ESO mechanics is difficult, but I believe that the solution provided by ZOS (Altmer are the magicka damage race and Bretons are the magicka sustain race) is respectful with the lore and balanced, which I think is as important as the lore. Those who want imbalanced races ought to find arguments outside the lore sphere, at least in this topic.
PS: Taking into account what I have been able to read, the last change to Spellcharge has been overanalysed in relation to DPS and poorly analysed in relation to Healing. I think that ZOS, again, being respectful with the lore, might not want Altmer to be a top Healing race, which would be possible with the first round of racial changes, providing great Spell Damage and sustain.
Breton was going to be the best healer regardless. The old passive would have made Altmer just barely acceptable in the role (the same as they are now on live).
I think they would be better than before in certain clases (Templar and Warden), but it's true they are viable now because of bonus to Magicka Recovery, exactly the most disputable magic ability to attribute to Altmer.
Bretons have always been noteworthy for their DEFENSE to magic, not sustain and power. Compared to Altmer, of course.
In fact, if we go back to Oblivion, Willpower increased your magicka regen rate and got more potent the higher your MAX MAGICKA was. So, Altmer had the highest sustain. And Skyrim gave us Highborn to get absurd magicka regen once per day. Their racial greater power was... sustain.
Lore-wise, Altmer cast stronger spells and for longer. You cannot argue that.
Sure, Skyrim brought great changes: freed Altmer of their weaknesses to elements and gave them Highborn, an ability without precedents. But Dragonskin allowed Bretons to regenerate magicka too. In Oblivion, although magicka regeneration was a percentage of the total of magicka, as in Skyrim, and so they were associated, the attribute that directly governed it was Willpower (in which Bretons had an initial advantage). In Morrowind, yet more different, the attribute governing the magicka regeneration was Intelligence (both races were equals here) and Willpower determined the success of casting spells. Clearly, the system hasn't been stabilised throughout the games, but we have some really defined patterns in relation to racial characteristics.
So, in Oblivion Altmer had the highest sustain if Willpower was levelled. And here is why I don't think that what we could potentially achieve with any race should inform our evaluation of the lore, as many of the racial characteristics were initial bonuses that allowed almost complete freedom developing the character in later stages of the game and these characteristics aren't the only source of lore.
This is what bothers me a bit. Bretons never had the best direct magicka sustain. Only when they take magic damage, they were able to restore it better than other races. So giving Breton unconditional free sustain and cost reduction is not what they used to be. If we really wanted to stick with the lore, Altmer would have some natural recovery and bretons great recovery when hit with magic.
In terms of ESO I also hate that Altmer are pretty much balanced around a high end raid group where they desperately leech as much magicka as they can from orbs and synergies. While Bretons are perfect and top in all content. I don't get why people base all arguments about those high end raid runs, that most of us aren't even being a part of. Altmer and Dunmer are worse everywhere except maybe in a perfect raid group.
This isn't and shouldn't be how he balance things, in my opinion.
Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos4 -
Eareindur✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »I offered to end it, but you wanted to continue!
Skyrim:
Altmer
+ 50 Magicka
+ 10 Illusion
+ 5 Alteration
+ 5 Destruction
+ 5 Enchanting
+ 5 Restoration
+ Faster Magicka Regeneration (Highborn)
Breton
+ 25% Magic Resist
+ 10 Conjuration
+ 5 Alchemy
+ 5 Alteration
+ 5 Restoration
+ 5 Speech
+ Spell Absorbtion (Dragonskin)
Altmer = All magic
Breton = Mostly magic + Speech + Alchemy
In-game description (Skyrim, the most recent Elder Scrolls game that is not limited by MMO balancing concerns)
"high elves are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races."
I am out!
You can let it rest.
If anyone claims that Altmer are not the most gifted in magic, lore wise, they have no idea. And using Battlespire as a reference, this has to be a joke.
Bretons are halfbloods between the Aldmer and the savage nedic, primal humans. It is only thanks to the powerful Aldmeri blood, that Bretons are gifted this way. Their blood is impure, while the Altmer still possess the primal aldmeri power. So if even a halfblood is good with magic, how strong will a pureblood be ?
There is litereally not a single indicator that Bretons could keep up with Altmer when it comes to magical affinity.
This is simply an example of a very bad informed opinion. Let's try to make a better assesment of the magicka affinity of Altmer and Bretons relying only on lore.
Some forgotten or entirely ignored nuances are required to truly evaluate the magicka performance of the races. Use of Magicka in Elder Scrolls is divided in many disciplines and one of them, spellcasting, has traditionally had seven schools: Destruction, Restoration, Conjuration, Alteration, Illusion, Mysticism and Thaumaturgy. So we should look to every one of these fields to compare the races. Doing so through lore and the initial bonuses to skills from Morrowind it is clear that the only discipline in which Altmer consistently surpass Bretons is Destruction. It's just a matter of fact as well that Bretons not only aren't inferior to Altmer in the rest of magic schools, but even are better in Conjuration and Restoration. That Bretons are the best conjurers is well established in lore and I admit that their mastery of Restoration can be argued since Skyrim, in which they are equals, but it's the only exception.
So, yes, Altmer are the most innate magicka gifted race, but that doesn't mean that they are the most powerful magicka users. It's well known that Bretons have inherited some of this affinity and relying in their intelligence and willpower they are capable of overcome the gap with Altmer and even excel in some disciplines related with magic. Including Alchemy, Enchanting and, of course, Necromancy, mastered by Bretons due to ther ability with summoning. Though Altmer, consequently, have always had greater pools of magicka, Bretons have enjoyed as well bonus to their magicka and have always bested Altmer in its regeneration capability. To sum up, Bretons are powerful with a more indirect or defensive use of magic, I would say, by no means weaker. Simply put, they are different.
Now, translating all this to the ESO mechanics is difficult, but I believe that the solution provided by ZOS (Altmer are the magicka damage race and Bretons are the magicka sustain race) is respectful with the lore and balanced, which I think is as important as the lore. Those who want imbalanced races ought to find arguments outside the lore sphere, at least in this topic.
PS: Taking into account what I have been able to read, the last change to Spellcharge has been overanalysed in relation to DPS and poorly analysed in relation to Healing. I think that ZOS, again, being respectful with the lore, might not want Altmer to be a top Healing race, which would be possible with the first round of racial changes, providing great Spell Damage and sustain.
Breton was going to be the best healer regardless. The old passive would have made Altmer just barely acceptable in the role (the same as they are now on live).
I think they would be better than before in certain clases (Templar and Warden), but it's true they are viable now because of bonus to Magicka Recovery, exactly the most disputable magic ability to attribute to Altmer.
Bretons have always been noteworthy for their DEFENSE to magic, not sustain and power. Compared to Altmer, of course.
In fact, if we go back to Oblivion, Willpower increased your magicka regen rate and got more potent the higher your MAX MAGICKA was. So, Altmer had the highest sustain. And Skyrim gave us Highborn to get absurd magicka regen once per day. Their racial greater power was... sustain.
Lore-wise, Altmer cast stronger spells and for longer. You cannot argue that.
Sure, Skyrim brought great changes: freed Altmer of their weaknesses to elements and gave them Highborn, an ability without precedents. But Dragonskin allowed Bretons to regenerate magicka too. In Oblivion, although magicka regeneration was a percentage of the total of magicka, as in Skyrim, and so they were associated, the attribute that directly governed it was Willpower (in which Bretons had an initial advantage). In Morrowind, yet more different, the attribute governing the magicka regeneration was Intelligence (both races were equals here) and Willpower determined the success of casting spells. Clearly, the system hasn't been stabilised throughout the games, but we have some really defined patterns in relation to racial characteristics.
So, in Oblivion Altmer had the highest sustain if Willpower was levelled. And here is why I don't think that what we could potentially achieve with any race should inform our evaluation of the lore, as many of the racial characteristics were initial bonuses that allowed almost complete freedom developing the character in later stages of the game and these characteristics aren't the only source of lore.
Altmer weakness to elements was only a Morrowind and Oblivion thing. Skyrim didn't free High Elves, it restored the old status. Neither Arena nor Daggerfall mention elemental weakness. They do mention the Breton's resistance to magic, though. That resistance is mentioned again and again and again and again and again. THIS IS THE BRETON'S THING!!! Once and for all!
What you and ZOS are doing is trying to retcon given lore (and ESO has been criticized for that couple of times). You WANT Bretons to be the sustain race, but they. are. not.
Arena and Dagger mention Altmer are the most gifted mages and no other racials apply (other than Altmer resistance to stuns). Morrowind has no permanent regen mechanic, but we can say that thanks to Altmers' significantly increased mag pool, they'll last longer before OOM. Oblivion has regen mechanic, and Altmer maximize it. Skyrim literally makes regen the Altmers' super power.
All you have to argue is a greater power that is defensive first and sustain second. And note that Dragonskin isn't even REGEN. It's ABSORP, like Atronach and Harness Magicka. And you have a really slight Willpower starting stat that only represents a completely untrained individual and caps out at the same value. That's very thin, man.
I rest my case. It's honestly ridiculous that we are discussing THE. MOST. SPECIALIZED. MAGICKA. RACE at all. It just shows how incredibly ignorant Zenimax of this legendary franchise's history are.
First, as I proposed, you have to argue why what you could potentially achieve with any race should decide in a lore oriented discussion given that racial bonuses only mattered at the beginning of the game. And did you even care to read my posts? What about the Bretons' well known mastery of summoning and defensive magic? As in ESO there wasn't classes and roles employing that disciplines: Sorcerer has an entire skill line, Templar, Warden... And Necromancer incoming, you know.
If you don't like the solution of ZOS (Altmer, damage race, and Breton, sustain race) just propose a new one, but, please, let it be balanced and respectful of the lore.
And with that said I leave this thread full of nonsense and hurt prides at least until there's some actual data to talk about balancing.3 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭altmer should of been given slightly enhanced magic shield strength rather than the channeling and stam regen.
maybe the equal of 2500 health as far as shields are concerned.only a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread is officially a nerf breton thread now. Lmao. Got to do what you got to do i guess.
2 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This thread is officially a nerf breton thread now. Lmao. Got to do what you got to do i guess.
It is not. It's just that Bretons are pictured as the greatest magicka master race from a lore perspective, while this was never the case. Since Altmer is now a hybrid race, Khajiit the best mages and Bretons the best sustain class; we can as well stop using lore as an excuse. Lore is pretty much lost at this point.
Edited by Dracane on February 9, 2019 2:18PMAuri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos2 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭altmer should of been given slightly enhanced magic shield strength rather than the channeling and stam regen.
maybe the equal of 2500 health as far as shields are concerned.
Literally the oppersite of what Altmers are known for. They're glass cannon mages.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade1 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »
Flat penetration would be fine. Fits glass cannons well, isn't OP thanks to penetration cap, isn't lorebreaking and is usable in PvP and PvE as well.
Similar case is increased chance to apply status effects.
There are so many good options, yet we have this lorebreaking, PvP-only excrement.
5 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭given the work people have done here to test expecting more dmg isnt reasonable. Slightly stronger shields is quite reasonable and makes perfect sense given altmers mastery of "magic" and fits the utility theme.validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »
masters of magic can also include defensive options. Given the number of altmers that play mag classes currently this is a reasonable compromise on the shield changes of 2018.only a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would take this thread a lot more seriously if y'all stopped pretending you gave a rat's ass about lore.
You can nerf Bretons' magicka if you give us 50% MAGIC DAMAGE REDUCTION like we had in Oblivion, otherwise GTFO.
Edited by Emma_Overload on February 9, 2019 3:13PM#CAREBEARMASTERRACE4 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread is officially a nerf breton thread now. Lmao. Got to do what you got to do i guess.
It is not. It's just that Bretons are pictured as the greatest magicka master race from a lore perspective, while this was never the case. Since Altmer is now a hybrid race, Khajiit the best mages and Bretons the best sustain class; we can as well stop using lore as an excuse. Lore is pretty much lost at this point.
Sry my bad. This is now officially a "nerf Breton cause they don't fit the lore" thread.1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This thread is officially a nerf breton thread now. Lmao. Got to do what you got to do i guess.
It is not. It's just that Bretons are pictured as the greatest magicka master race from a lore perspective, while this was never the case. Since Altmer is now a hybrid race, Khajiit the best mages and Bretons the best sustain class; we can as well stop using lore as an excuse. Lore is pretty much lost at this point.
Sry my bad. This is now officially a "nerf Breton cause they don't fit the lore" thread.
Stop playing stupid. You are not stupid.
I don't want any race to be nerfed. It's for people who bring forth lore as an argument for Bretons. While the truth is, that Bretons are not representing this at the moment. Lore is clearly not valued anymore, so I think all further suggestions from our end are for nothing.
Altmer is a hybrid race now and that's how it's going to be.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos1 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »... yet we have this lorebreaking, PvP-only excrement.
Stop with this nonsense please.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread is officially a nerf breton thread now. Lmao. Got to do what you got to do i guess.
It is not. It's just that Bretons are pictured as the greatest magicka master race from a lore perspective, while this was never the case. Since Altmer is now a hybrid race, Khajiit the best mages and Bretons the best sustain class; we can as well stop using lore as an excuse. Lore is pretty much lost at this point.
Sry my bad. This is now officially a "nerf Breton cause they don't fit the lore" thread.
Stop playing stupid. You are not stupid.
I don't want any race to be nerfed. It's for people who bring forth lore as an argument for Bretons. While the truth is, that Bretons are not representing this at the moment. Lore is clearly not valued anymore, so I think all further suggestions from our end are for nothing.
Altmer is a hybrid race now and that's how it's going to be.
I'm not playing stupid. It is what it is. This thread started as altmer useless in end game content and not balanced. When that argument was thrown out of the window its all about solo. Now it's about bretons don't fit the lore and how they shouldn't be as powerful as altmer. Suddenly everyone want balance around the lore, lmao. Of course that is as long as it favors altmer.6 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This thread is officially a nerf breton thread now. Lmao. Got to do what you got to do i guess.
It is not. It's just that Bretons are pictured as the greatest magicka master race from a lore perspective, while this was never the case. Since Altmer is now a hybrid race, Khajiit the best mages and Bretons the best sustain class; we can as well stop using lore as an excuse. Lore is pretty much lost at this point.
Sry my bad. This is now officially a "nerf Breton cause they don't fit the lore" thread.
Stop playing stupid. You are not stupid.
I don't want any race to be nerfed. It's for people who bring forth lore as an argument for Bretons. While the truth is, that Bretons are not representing this at the moment. Lore is clearly not valued anymore, so I think all further suggestions from our end are for nothing.
Altmer is a hybrid race now and that's how it's going to be.
I'm not playing stupid. It is what it is. This thread started as altmer useless in end game content and not balanced. When that argument was thrown out of the window its all about solo. Now it's about bretons don't fit the lore and how they shouldn't be as powerful as altmer. Suddenly everyone want balance around the lore, lmao. Of course that is as long as it favors altmer.
Well, there was a wide spectrum of arguments made, that can't be denied.
But wasn't lore always the main point ? This argument is valid, true and my main concern anyway.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos2 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »I offered to end it, but you wanted to continue!
Skyrim:
Altmer
+ 50 Magicka
+ 10 Illusion
+ 5 Alteration
+ 5 Destruction
+ 5 Enchanting
+ 5 Restoration
+ Faster Magicka Regeneration (Highborn)
Breton
+ 25% Magic Resist
+ 10 Conjuration
+ 5 Alchemy
+ 5 Alteration
+ 5 Restoration
+ 5 Speech
+ Spell Absorbtion (Dragonskin)
Altmer = All magic
Breton = Mostly magic + Speech + Alchemy
In-game description (Skyrim, the most recent Elder Scrolls game that is not limited by MMO balancing concerns)
"high elves are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races."
I am out!
You can let it rest.
If anyone claims that Altmer are not the most gifted in magic, lore wise, they have no idea. And using Battlespire as a reference, this has to be a joke.
Bretons are halfbloods between the Aldmer and the savage nedic, primal humans. It is only thanks to the powerful Aldmeri blood, that Bretons are gifted this way. Their blood is impure, while the Altmer still possess the primal aldmeri power. So if even a halfblood is good with magic, how strong will a pureblood be ?
There is litereally not a single indicator that Bretons could keep up with Altmer when it comes to magical affinity.
This is simply an example of a very bad informed opinion. Let's try to make a better assesment of the magicka affinity of Altmer and Bretons relying only on lore.
Some forgotten or entirely ignored nuances are required to truly evaluate the magicka performance of the races. Use of Magicka in Elder Scrolls is divided in many disciplines and one of them, spellcasting, has traditionally had seven schools: Destruction, Restoration, Conjuration, Alteration, Illusion, Mysticism and Thaumaturgy. So we should look to every one of these fields to compare the races. Doing so through lore and the initial bonuses to skills from Morrowind it is clear that the only discipline in which Altmer consistently surpass Bretons is Destruction. It's just a matter of fact as well that Bretons not only aren't inferior to Altmer in the rest of magic schools, but even are better in Conjuration and Restoration. That Bretons are the best conjurers is well established in lore and I admit that their mastery of Restoration can be argued since Skyrim, in which they are equals, but it's the only exception.
So, yes, Altmer are the most innate magicka gifted race, but that doesn't mean that they are the most powerful magicka users. It's well known that Bretons have inherited some of this affinity and relying in their intelligence and willpower they are capable of overcome the gap with Altmer and even excel in some disciplines related with magic. Including Alchemy, Enchanting and, of course, Necromancy, mastered by Bretons due to ther ability with summoning. Though Altmer, consequently, have always had greater pools of magicka, Bretons have enjoyed as well bonus to their magicka and have always bested Altmer in its regeneration capability. To sum up, Bretons are powerful with a more indirect or defensive use of magic, I would say, by no means weaker. Simply put, they are different.
Now, translating all this to the ESO mechanics is difficult, but I believe that the solution provided by ZOS (Altmer are the magicka damage race and Bretons are the magicka sustain race) is respectful with the lore and balanced, which I think is as important as the lore. Those who want imbalanced races ought to find arguments outside the lore sphere, at least in this topic.
PS: Taking into account what I have been able to read, the last change to Spellcharge has been overanalysed in relation to DPS and poorly analysed in relation to Healing. I think that ZOS, again, being respectful with the lore, might not want Altmer to be a top Healing race, which would be possible with the first round of racial changes, providing great Spell Damage and sustain.
Breton was going to be the best healer regardless. The old passive would have made Altmer just barely acceptable in the role (the same as they are now on live).
I think they would be better than before in certain clases (Templar and Warden), but it's true they are viable now because of bonus to Magicka Recovery, exactly the most disputable magic ability to attribute to Altmer.
Bretons have always been noteworthy for their DEFENSE to magic, not sustain and power. Compared to Altmer, of course.
In fact, if we go back to Oblivion, Willpower increased your magicka regen rate and got more potent the higher your MAX MAGICKA was. So, Altmer had the highest sustain. And Skyrim gave us Highborn to get absurd magicka regen once per day. Their racial greater power was... sustain.
Lore-wise, Altmer cast stronger spells and for longer. You cannot argue that.
Sure, Skyrim brought great changes: freed Altmer of their weaknesses to elements and gave them Highborn, an ability without precedents. But Dragonskin allowed Bretons to regenerate magicka too. In Oblivion, although magicka regeneration was a percentage of the total of magicka, as in Skyrim, and so they were associated, the attribute that directly governed it was Willpower (in which Bretons had an initial advantage). In Morrowind, yet more different, the attribute governing the magicka regeneration was Intelligence (both races were equals here) and Willpower determined the success of casting spells. Clearly, the system hasn't been stabilised throughout the games, but we have some really defined patterns in relation to racial characteristics.
So, in Oblivion Altmer had the highest sustain if Willpower was levelled. And here is why I don't think that what we could potentially achieve with any race should inform our evaluation of the lore, as many of the racial characteristics were initial bonuses that allowed almost complete freedom developing the character in later stages of the game and these characteristics aren't the only source of lore.
Altmer weakness to elements was only a Morrowind and Oblivion thing. Skyrim didn't free High Elves, it restored the old status. Neither Arena nor Daggerfall mention elemental weakness. They do mention the Breton's resistance to magic, though. That resistance is mentioned again and again and again and again and again. THIS IS THE BRETON'S THING!!! Once and for all!
What you and ZOS are doing is trying to retcon given lore (and ESO has been criticized for that couple of times). You WANT Bretons to be the sustain race, but they. are. not.
Arena and Dagger mention Altmer are the most gifted mages and no other racials apply (other than Altmer resistance to stuns). Morrowind has no permanent regen mechanic, but we can say that thanks to Altmers' significantly increased mag pool, they'll last longer before OOM. Oblivion has regen mechanic, and Altmer maximize it. Skyrim literally makes regen the Altmers' super power.
All you have to argue is a greater power that is defensive first and sustain second. And note that Dragonskin isn't even REGEN. It's ABSORP, like Atronach and Harness Magicka. And you have a really slight Willpower starting stat that only represents a completely untrained individual and caps out at the same value. That's very thin, man.
I rest my case. It's honestly ridiculous that we are discussing THE. MOST. SPECIALIZED. MAGICKA. RACE at all. It just shows how incredibly ignorant Zenimax of this legendary franchise's history are.
First, as I proposed, you have to argue why what you could potentially achieve with any race should decide in a lore oriented discussion given that racial bonuses only mattered at the beginning of the game. And did you even care to read my posts? What about the Bretons' well known mastery of summoning and defensive magic? As in ESO there wasn't classes and roles employing that disciplines: Sorcerer has an entire skill line, Templar, Warden... And Necromancer incoming, you know.
If you don't like the solution of ZOS (Altmer, damage race, and Breton, sustain race) just propose a new one, but, please, let it be balanced and respectful of the lore.
And with that said I leave this thread full of nonsense and hurt prides at least until there's some actual data to talk about balancing.
Man, can you read? Bretons=defense. RESISTANCE.
Yes, Bretons have summoners and alteraters. That's in the initial skill levels and missing from ESO.
I won't argue why the most specialized magicka class in an RPG should produce the biggest number. Might as well have Redguard magicka templar outdps an Altmer/Dunmer sorc if we're following you.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread is officially a nerf breton thread now. Lmao. Got to do what you got to do i guess.
It is not. It's just that Bretons are pictured as the greatest magicka master race from a lore perspective, while this was never the case. Since Altmer is now a hybrid race, Khajiit the best mages and Bretons the best sustain class; we can as well stop using lore as an excuse. Lore is pretty much lost at this point.
Sry my bad. This is now officially a "nerf Breton cause they don't fit the lore" thread.
Stop playing stupid. You are not stupid.
I don't want any race to be nerfed. It's for people who bring forth lore as an argument for Bretons. While the truth is, that Bretons are not representing this at the moment. Lore is clearly not valued anymore, so I think all further suggestions from our end are for nothing.
Altmer is a hybrid race now and that's how it's going to be.
I'm not playing stupid. It is what it is. This thread started as altmer useless in end game content and not balanced. When that argument was thrown out of the window its all about solo. Now it's about bretons don't fit the lore and how they shouldn't be as powerful as altmer. Suddenly everyone want balance around the lore, lmao. Of course that is as long as it favors altmer.
Well, there was a wide spectrum of arguments made, that can't be denied.
But wasn't lore always the main point ? This argument is valid, true and my main concern anyway.
Since beta this is literally the first time that ive seen lore coming up as the main argument for balance instead of you know, the actual gameplay. Literally ive never ever seen something being balanced in game and everyone and their mother whining about why it has to change because in their version of lore its not good. But if you wanna go ahead and balance around lore, be sure to involve all of it and not whatever suits you. Im not much of a lore guy, but i do remember altmer being vulnerable to elemental dmg. I also seem to remember bretons being very resistant to magic. Like actually very resistant, not some spell res buff that everyone can match with ease by putting on a couple of pieces of gear. They did also have sustain through absorb so remember to put that too on their passives. But we both that if something like that was introduced ud find some other argument to make about why its not balanced.Edited by pieratsos on February 9, 2019 5:01PM2 -
Steelshiv✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »@Elric_Ashborn , so that's why I see physically fit and trained thalmor with swords all over Auridon... I don't think we should confuse altmers with faerie folk living in broughs and doing nothing but magic.
The races represent the average racial archetype. This is how it is for every other race. There is no race known more for magic and less for stamina than the Altmer.
Yes, but we aren't playing "average" members of the races. We are playing "heroic" members of the races. I imagine it to be similar to D&D where there are NPC classes and Heroic classes.0 -
grannas211✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Except no one said it was necessary to nerf altmers nor did they ask for nerfs. And the term mathematician doesnt even make sense in the context u used it. Sorry bud, you are not bright enough to be able to insult me.MLGProPlayer wrote: »
You got exposed. Get over it. Feel free to keep moving the goalposts now and further embarrass urself. No issue with me.
It doesnt make sense in any context in these forums if were being literal.
So high horse, please get down from0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭given the work people have done here to test expecting more dmg isnt reasonable. Slightly stronger shields is quite reasonable and makes perfect sense given altmers mastery of "magic" and fits the utility theme.validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »
masters of magic can also include defensive options. Given the number of altmers that play mag classes currently this is a reasonable compromise on the shield changes of 2018.
Not saying that you're wrong but I don't think that the number of people playing a distinct race should be a reason to buff or nerf. It's should be a signal for looking into it, if something is missing or too strong, sure, but not a reason to just change only bc of numbers.1 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭
Altmer is a hybrid race now and that's how it's going to be.This thread is officially a nerf breton thread now. Lmao. Got to do what you got to do i guess.
It is not. It's just that Bretons are pictured as the greatest magicka master race from a lore perspective, while this was never the case. Since Altmer is now a hybrid race, Khajiit the best mages and Bretons the best sustain class; we can as well stop using lore as an excuse. Lore is pretty much lost at this point.
Sry my bad. This is now officially a "nerf Breton cause they don't fit the lore" thread.
This is a complete joke. Having a utility passive that restores your lowest max resource whether that be magicka or stamina does not make you a hybrid race. This is hyperbolic to absurd levels. Additionally, now that your ridiculous hysteria has been exposed as unfounded you have all transformed lore purists. I don't know how anyone can take anything any of you say seriously.1 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭i was thinking here with a utility that made sense and would be readily accepted.only a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
Darlon✭✭✭✭✭I am amazed about all the arguments that something should be a certain way because of lore.
Sure, lore is important, and should be taken into account, but first of all this is an MMO, not a single player RPG. Sometimes sacrifices must be made for the sake of balance and gameplay, even if it is not exactly according to the lore or previous games (which were single player).
Lore can never be an argument to create an imbalance.
So even if according to lore Altmer are the absolute masters of magicka, it cannot be like that in an mmo. There must always be something in other races (in other alliances) that could give them an advantage over Altmer (like bretons sustain).
In the end all 3 alliances should have a race for magicka users that performs on a relative same level, lore or not.3 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭grannas211 wrote: »
Except no one said it was necessary to nerf altmers nor did they ask for nerfs. And the term mathematician doesnt even make sense in the context u used it. Sorry bud, you are not bright enough to be able to insult me.MLGProPlayer wrote: »
You got exposed. Get over it. Feel free to keep moving the goalposts now and further embarrass urself. No issue with me.
It doesnt make sense in any context in these forums if were being literal.
So high horse, please get down from
It was not about being used in its literal context. Nice strawman right there.Edited by pieratsos on February 9, 2019 5:30PM1 -
nsmurfer✭✭✭✭✭Any one citing lore for balance in TES franchise does not **** about TES lore. The very scrolls themselves have directly stated that almost everything takes place in alternate strings of reality weaving in together when Nirn needs to. Go and look at the Loremaster's leaving letter. funny but he mentioned this exact thing, that lore does not dictate what somebody can do or not, it is them that dictates the lore.
There has been various retcons and racial lore change in the game. In Arena, Daggerfall, khajiit had nothing much to do with stealth and were expert climbers, berserkers and was a generally brawler, while Bosmer was the indisputable king of stealth. Then with the drop of the acrobatics mechanics, they choose to make the Khajiit the new bis race of stealth.
What lore did they add to prove that? The "5 years war" between Bosmer and Khajiit. Initially the Bosmer was winning against the brawler khajiits who advised in war by nords. Then the khajiit decided to drop them and decided to use some ancient stealth guerrilla style with medium armor, that was a lost art to the khajiit of that age. These new cat assassins immediately changed the face of the war, winning battle after battle by ganking the bosmers and by beating the bosmer assassins soundly at their own game. This forced the bosmer to activate Wild hunt and the khajiit assassins sealed the warzone leaving the feral bosmer to eat each other and used the opportunity to infiltrate Valenwood and assassinate the bosmeri leadership, effectively winning the war, lorewise proving khajiit>bosmer for stealth, which was an entirely new field for them atm.
As so many here are stating that it makes no sense for khajiit to come near altmer in terms of magic, it is a very big possibility that Zos is going to pull something very similar with the lore next patch, revealing some ancient khajiiti magic beyond anything altmer is capable. For that matter, ES6 can simply add soemthing in similar veins of a magical war in which altmer was beaten by khajiit. It is very easy given we know little to nothing about the khajiit's capability or even one named khajiit hero for that matter.
As for an actual lore for khajiit to at least equal altmer is already given. Altmer lorewise are the descendants of aedra and khajiit are the specially modified and improved race by Azura to one day defeat all divines including the aedra. Khajiit and altmer are essentially born nemesis of each other.Edited by nsmurfer on February 9, 2019 5:42PM4 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »Going all the way back to Daggerfall lore:The tall, golden-skinned High Elves are easily equal to Bretons in sorcerous ability due to their high intelligence, force of will, and agility. They are more susceptible to spells than the people of High Rock, but by their nature are completely immune to paralyzation.
That says they are equals in sorcerous ability. So what is this all of this caterwauling about, honestly? You can't have the Altmer just be flat-out better mages than Bretons in this game, even if it did satisfy "muh lore", because then no one would play Bretons (which is the situation we have in live).
So now Altmer have the highest damage potential in the game courtesy of the highest raw magicka and spell damage stats.
And now Bretons have the highest sustain potential in the game along with a boost to spell resistance.
The same semblance of balance has been struck elsewhere in the game: just compare Orc to Altmer and Redguard to Breton.
This thread descended into lunacy long ago. Y'all need to get a grip.
Really? You are going with this quote as your reasoning for certain balance changes?
Let's see what it says:
1) Altmers and Bretons are equal in sorcerous abilities.
-> Argueably achieved by the whole Spell Damage VS Regen thing (though Bretons got 2 set bonuses more than Altmers)
2) Altmers are more susceptible to spells.
-> Achieved by the additional 2.3k to 4.6k spell resistence of the Bretons
3) Altmers are immune to paralyzation - i.e. stuns
-> Where is the Altmer stun/CC immunity?
Kind feels like Altmer is getting the short end of the stick. Bretons got everything, Altmers only part of what makes up their race.
Coming to think of it ... I like your proposed foundation of interracial balancing. PvP will be so much more fun on my sorc! Thank you for furnishing Altmers a fit occasion.1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This thread is officially a nerf breton thread now. Lmao. Got to do what you got to do i guess.
It is not. It's just that Bretons are pictured as the greatest magicka master race from a lore perspective, while this was never the case. Since Altmer is now a hybrid race, Khajiit the best mages and Bretons the best sustain class; we can as well stop using lore as an excuse. Lore is pretty much lost at this point.
Sry my bad. This is now officially a "nerf Breton cause they don't fit the lore" thread.
Stop playing stupid. You are not stupid.
I don't want any race to be nerfed. It's for people who bring forth lore as an argument for Bretons. While the truth is, that Bretons are not representing this at the moment. Lore is clearly not valued anymore, so I think all further suggestions from our end are for nothing.
Altmer is a hybrid race now and that's how it's going to be.
I'm not playing stupid. It is what it is. This thread started as altmer useless in end game content and not balanced. When that argument was thrown out of the window its all about solo. Now it's about bretons don't fit the lore and how they shouldn't be as powerful as altmer. Suddenly everyone want balance around the lore, lmao. Of course that is as long as it favors altmer.
Well, there was a wide spectrum of arguments made, that can't be denied.
But wasn't lore always the main point ? This argument is valid, true and my main concern anyway.
Since beta this is literally the first time that ive seen lore coming up as the main argument for balance instead of you know, the actual gameplay. Literally ive never ever seen something being balanced in game and everyone and their mother whining about why it has to change because in their version of lore its not good. But if you wanna go ahead and balance around lore, be sure to involve all of it and not whatever suits you. Im not much of a lore guy, but i do remember altmer being vulnerable to elemental dmg. I also seem to remember bretons being very resistant to magic. Like actually very resistant, not some spell res buff that everyone can match with ease by putting on a couple of pieces of gear. They did also have sustain through absorb so remember to put that too on their passives. But we both that if something like that was introduced ud find some other argument to make about why its not balanced.
If listened to or not, it is always good to bring up lore arguments. Elder Scrolls has a rich lore and ESO claims to try to follow it. Even if it's ignored in the end, I will never stop bringing it up.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos1 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread is officially a nerf breton thread now. Lmao. Got to do what you got to do i guess.
It is not. It's just that Bretons are pictured as the greatest magicka master race from a lore perspective, while this was never the case. Since Altmer is now a hybrid race, Khajiit the best mages and Bretons the best sustain class; we can as well stop using lore as an excuse. Lore is pretty much lost at this point.
Sry my bad. This is now officially a "nerf Breton cause they don't fit the lore" thread.
Stop playing stupid. You are not stupid.
I don't want any race to be nerfed. It's for people who bring forth lore as an argument for Bretons. While the truth is, that Bretons are not representing this at the moment. Lore is clearly not valued anymore, so I think all further suggestions from our end are for nothing.
Altmer is a hybrid race now and that's how it's going to be.
I'm not playing stupid. It is what it is. This thread started as altmer useless in end game content and not balanced. When that argument was thrown out of the window its all about solo. Now it's about bretons don't fit the lore and how they shouldn't be as powerful as altmer. Suddenly everyone want balance around the lore, lmao. Of course that is as long as it favors altmer.
Well, there was a wide spectrum of arguments made, that can't be denied.
But wasn't lore always the main point ? This argument is valid, true and my main concern anyway.
Since beta this is literally the first time that ive seen lore coming up as the main argument for balance instead of you know, the actual gameplay. Literally ive never ever seen something being balanced in game and everyone and their mother whining about why it has to change because in their version of lore its not good. But if you wanna go ahead and balance around lore, be sure to involve all of it and not whatever suits you. Im not much of a lore guy, but i do remember altmer being vulnerable to elemental dmg. I also seem to remember bretons being very resistant to magic. Like actually very resistant, not some spell res buff that everyone can match with ease by putting on a couple of pieces of gear. They did also have sustain through absorb so remember to put that too on their passives. But we both that if something like that was introduced ud find some other argument to make about why its not balanced.
If listened to or not, it is always good to bring up lore arguments. Elder Scrolls has a rich lore and ESO claims to try to follow it. Even if it's ignored in the end, I will never stop bringing it up.
Yeah altmer abusers suddenly all care about muh lore when an altmer pve nerf is in sight. Everyone suddenly cares about lore now that their overperforming race is getting rebalanced
. 5