simeion wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

simeion wrote: »

Sorry but this issue is a build or a learn to play issue.

Let me stop you right there, as this is neither. A spammable self buff that completely nullifies all projectile damage and cc to you, redirects it back onto the caster, prevents the caster from weaving light attacks, and allows you to attack the caster while immune to their damage is broken. There is no balancing such a mechanic, It must be removed from the game.

Sorry but saying it is and not supporting any data are two different things. I have fought plenty of Sorcs that build for DKs or play well against them and even win. Wings do not make you immune to CC, it has a two 2 snare immunity. Sorcs have plenty of ways to CC a DK besides using something that is reflectable. Players need to adjust. I guess it is a DK to winning a fight and a player to streak or cloak away and the DK has nothing they can do. There is balance. DK is strong against Sorcs. Sorcs are strong against Nightblades. Templars are strong against DKs.

DK deal with the same thing with extended ritual. DK needs to pressure with DOTS and when they are always being purged it hurts the DK. But the templar needs purge to be effective.

I just want to make sure I understand. If we remove wings it is okay for a class to T off on a melee class from range with no counter? I would listen to any idea that makes them more balanced? Let them only reflect projectiles over 7 meters, this put the player in DK attack range and give the ability to counter the wings beside using ones intelligence, but lets dumb down things for player morethatn they are already.

No offense, but you are just repeating the stuff people before you already said and that has been shown to be incorrect.

And why should the range be 7 meters? It would be completely one-sided and in favor of the DK as it forces ranged builds into melee range. If anything the threshold should be at medium range where neither the melee DK nor the ranged sorc are at their strongest or weakest!

Why not give ranged builds something that reflects anything that was fired from below 20m range? I mean such an mechanic is obviously not broken as you keep claiming!

Galarthor wrote: »

simeion wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

simeion wrote: »

Sorry but this issue is a build or a learn to play issue.

Let me stop you right there, as this is neither. A spammable self buff that completely nullifies all projectile damage and cc to you, redirects it back onto the caster, prevents the caster from weaving light attacks, and allows you to attack the caster while immune to their damage is broken. There is no balancing such a mechanic, It must be removed from the game.

Sorry but saying it is and not supporting any data are two different things. I have fought plenty of Sorcs that build for DKs or play well against them and even win. Wings do not make you immune to CC, it has a two 2 snare immunity. Sorcs have plenty of ways to CC a DK besides using something that is reflectable. Players need to adjust. I guess it is a DK to winning a fight and a player to streak or cloak away and the DK has nothing they can do. There is balance. DK is strong against Sorcs. Sorcs are strong against Nightblades. Templars are strong against DKs.

DK deal with the same thing with extended ritual. DK needs to pressure with DOTS and when they are always being purged it hurts the DK. But the templar needs purge to be effective.

I just want to make sure I understand. If we remove wings it is okay for a class to T off on a melee class from range with no counter? I would listen to any idea that makes them more balanced? Let them only reflect projectiles over 7 meters, this put the player in DK attack range and give the ability to counter the wings beside using ones intelligence, but lets dumb down things for player morethatn they are already.

No offense, but you are just repeating the stuff people before you already said and that has been shown to be incorrect.

And why should the range be 7 meters? It would be completely one-sided and in favor of the DK as it forces ranged builds into melee range. If anything the threshold should be at medium range where neither the melee DK nor the ranged sorc are at their strongest or weakest!

Why not give ranged builds something that reflects anything that was fired from below 20m range? I mean such an mechanic is obviously not broken as you keep claiming!

Because you can fire projectiles from up close, you can't use melee skills at range.

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

100% uptime? WHAT?! Lmao, short duration as well as unsustainable cost. Maybe make a Balanced build. My magsorc has no problems with wings. Haunting curse, Force pulse, wrath, meteor, and time in Crystal's and stuns for when wings drop. Nothing to see here.

I've fought dk's that have spammed flappy wings every 6 seconds or whenever 4 projectiles hits like clockwork. Wings spammers are the minority though. And even when they spam, I just keep hitting them and blocking the blowback. The do then has to keep casting it which runs them out of resources. Not too difficult.

It's great that you have mastered your rotation. For the average player who hasn't; wings might be difficult to deal with. Personally I just find it to be a very very very minor annoyance to have to change my fight style/rotation and nothing more than that.

Urvoth wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

It’s not hard. Use light attacks to take their wings off and make them waste magicka recasting. You can also use force pulse and rune cage instead of flame reach. Fighting dks on a sorc is a l2p issue.

WHAT? so 4 GCD is the way? dude you would be dead as a sorc or in 4 sec they would just recast. Seriously try and get into competitive PVP.

I’m a high bg mmr magsorc that fights dk mains every game. You don’t spam light attacks, you weave them with non reflectable skills like wrath, curse, force pulse, and rune cage. If your positioning and timing is good, you can kill them fine and hit your burst when wings go down. Just don’t hit them with frags while wings are up.

So you can kill a dk with wrath, curse, force pulse, and rune cage ? Best joke in 2019. Please continue to amuse .

Urvoth wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

It’s not hard. Use light attacks to take their wings off and make them waste magicka recasting. You can also use force pulse and rune cage instead of flame reach. Fighting dks on a sorc is a l2p issue.

WHAT? so 4 GCD is the way? dude you would be dead as a sorc or in 4 sec they would just recast. Seriously try and get into competitive PVP.

I’m a high bg mmr magsorc that fights dk mains every game. You don’t spam light attacks, you weave them with non reflectable skills like wrath, curse, force pulse, and rune cage. If your positioning and timing is good, you can kill them fine and hit your burst when wings go down. Just don’t hit them with frags while wings are up.

So you can kill a dk with wrath, curse, force pulse, and rune cage ? Best joke in 2019. Please continue to amuse .

You can combo it with your ult and then with frags once you get their wings down. Are you at a disadvantage vs wings? Yeah, but you can play around it and still kill them.

The issue with the Rune Cage + Meteor combo—ever Since Wolfhunter where Cage got nerfed to zero damage—is that it isn't really a burst combo, not any more.

An unblocked Meteor has about twice the tooltip of a Force pulse. So a Meteor + Cage combo over 2 GCDs is doing the same rate of damage as a Force Pulse spammed twice in a row. A burst combo with the same DPS as a spammable.

Yes, it does have the advantage of being backloaded and unavoidable—so you CAN secure the kill on someone who got sloppy and let themselves fall into burst range. But how do you pressure through wings with nothing aside from Force Pulse and 1 Curse pop on an average of every 6 seconds? No light attacks, even, and these comprise a huge amount of DPS these days. The instant a DK gets wings up, they have far more than enough free GCDs at their disposal to heal-through any unflectable incoming pressure a Sorc can output.

That is assuming the Sorc even gets a chance to go on the offensive.

Sure, if a DK gets sloppy and lets themself get pressured into burst range in this manner, they could conceivably die to a well lined-up combo. But that's an issue of bad play on the DKs part, not because the matchup is an even one.

simeion wrote: »

Sorry but nothing I said has been shown to be incorrect. The seven meter was a suggestion to introduce a concept.

Why is 20 meter okay? Then a sorc just has to stay out of melee range and with in 20 meters to T-off on a non-mobile class. If the DK get close all the sorc has to do is streak a direction to get the advantage back into their favor. All this does is give Sorc total control. 7 meters put the player in harms way and counter the wings. This put the DK acceptable to a projectile and the range player in range of the DK abilities. How is this not a balanced citation.

20m b/c at that range you can use your gap closer. Don't have a gap closer? Though luck! Nobody expects a ranged class to get away from a melee without a gap opener, so melees should not be able to catch range classes without gap closers either.

simeion wrote: »

Force pulse from range non-felectable. Curse non-reflectable. Wraith non-relectable. Rune cage a cc that drops block for the DKs that don't know how to play DK without doing so. There are great options out there. Pets do a fare amount of damage. With an Asylum destro you apply some good debuffs. There are builds out there that Sorcs can put together and dont have to worry about reflect as much. You have to adapt to the fight.

I already answer why Force Pulse, Curse, Wrath, Rune Cage, and Atro are not really feasible or not enough (depending on the skills) and for the sake of brevity I am not gonna repeat that all in this post again.

As for pet: they take up 2 slots and sorc bar space is already issue as it is. And what they provide is pretty meager for taking up 2 bar slots.

Asylum, is a good weapon, but why it doesn't really work ties back to the issues regarding Force Pulse and Rune Cage addressed above.

simeion wrote: »

Please answer: Why it is okay for a range class to T-off on a melee class with limited mobility? How do you fix this with removing of wings? Make the fight fair, I am all about that. I agree reflect is strong, but it needs to be. Give me a better option or a counter option. What will you replace the ability with that will allow the stand you ground class to do so? Put yourself in the spot and tell me how to make it fair for all?

I really appreciate that you read my previous posts, b/c quite obviously I want to remove wings [/sarcasm]

First, all fights between a melee and a range class are already fought at melee range in this game 99.9% of the time. So there is no real situation where the DK (melee) cannot utilize their skills and is not fighting on home-turf. So wings or not, fights are already taking place in melee range and as such the arguement that you need a counter for all the bombardment you are taking from range is unsubstantiated.

Second, as soon as you are in gap closer range you are fair game. If you don't slot one as a melee then don't expect to get close to the range build, the same way a range build cannot expect to get away from a melee without a gap opener.

Third, DK is by faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar the best toolkit to ensure the oppoenent will stay in melee range. All the roots, stun-toos, and snare make it pretty much impossible for magicka builds to get away from DKs (and let's face it, most projectile builds are magicka builds).

Fourth, DKs already got strong survival tools. How the hell do you survive against all the melee builds whose attacks you cannot reflect? Or range builds whose attacks you cannot reflect? Projectile-based builds have to get through these defenses as well and on top of that they get have to get past the wings that reflect 80% to 90% of their damage back at them. So if you can survive and kill melee builds without reflecting their attacks, and all the fights are happening in melee range, then decreasing your opponents damage to 10% and effectively increasing yours to 200% is not really warranted or balanced!

Finally, just to reiterate for you:
I don't believe that the solution to the issue is in removing wings. I think the solution lies in enabling sorcs and NBs to effectivly use Force Pulse, which at least on part of the sorc requires Rune Cage to become a viable stun and not the easy to avoid and teethless shitshow it currently is.
I only suggested to make wings not reflect projectiles within a certain range as an alternative solution. As for the 15m to 20m, see above!

simeion wrote: »

It is pretty stupid to be fighting 1-3 players in melee range and have players at range also damaging you when you as a mDK cannot cloak (nightblade), shield and streak away (sorc), and purge damage (templar). I also am not saying the DK should win in this situation, but you have to give them the tools for what they are designed to do.

I will let you in on a little secret. With shields you don't even have to worry about that ranged guy when more than 1 person is attacking you in melee range. Because shields often already melt when 1 player is hitting them and they evaporate if there are 2 or more people hitting it. Do you know why that is? B/c shields like heals and to some extent your wings are scaled around 1v1 encounters ... well most heals that is (those leeching heals of DKs, Templars, and NBs are ofc not scaled around 1v1). But I can promise you, your Hardened Ward will not last as long as your wings will and neither does it reflect any damage back at the opponent or provide any immunity.

Galarthor wrote: »

simeion wrote: »

Sorry but nothing I said has been shown to be incorrect. The seven meter was a suggestion to introduce a concept.

Why is 20 meter okay? Then a sorc just has to stay out of melee range and with in 20 meters to T-off on a non-mobile class. If the DK get close all the sorc has to do is streak a direction to get the advantage back into their favor. All this does is give Sorc total control. 7 meters put the player in harms way and counter the wings. This put the DK acceptable to a projectile and the range player in range of the DK abilities. How is this not a balanced citation.

20m b/c at that range you can use your gap closer. Don't have a gap closer? Though luck! Nobody expects a ranged class to get away from a melee without a gap opener, so melees should not be able to catch range classes without gap closers either.



I already answer why Force Pulse, Curse, Wrath, Rune Cage, and Atro are not really feasible or not enough (depending on the skills) and for the sake of brevity I am not gonna repeat that all in this post again.

As for pet: they take up 2 slots and sorc bar space is already issue as it is. And what they provide is pretty meager for taking up 2 bar slots.

Asylum, is a good weapon, but why it doesn't really work ties back to the issues regarding Force Pulse and Rune Cage addressed above.

simeion wrote: »

Please answer: Why it is okay for a range class to T-off on a melee class with limited mobility? How do you fix this with removing of wings? Make the fight fair, I am all about that. I agree reflect is strong, but it needs to be. Give me a better option or a counter option. What will you replace the ability with that will allow the stand you ground class to do so? Put yourself in the spot and tell me how to make it fair for all?

I really appreciate that you read my previous posts, b/c quite obviously I want to remove wings [/sarcasm]

First, all fights between a melee and a range class are already fought at melee range in this game 99.9% of the time. So there is no real situation where the DK (melee) cannot utilize their skills and is not fighting on home-turf. So wings or not, fights are already taking place in melee range and as such the arguement that you need a counter for all the bombardment you are taking from range is unsubstantiated.

Second, as soon as you are in gap closer range you are fair game. If you don't slot one as a melee then don't expect to get close to the range build, the same way a range build cannot expect to get away from a melee without a gap opener.

Third, DK is by faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar the best toolkit to ensure the oppoenent will stay in melee range. All the roots, stun-toos, and snare make it pretty much impossible for magicka builds to get away from DKs (and let's face it, most projectile builds are magicka builds).

Fourth, DKs already got strong survival tools. How the hell do you survive against all the melee builds whose attacks you cannot reflect? Or range builds whose attacks you cannot reflect? Projectile-based builds have to get through these defenses as well and on top of that they get have to get past the wings that reflect 80% to 90% of their damage back at them. So if you can survive and kill melee builds without reflecting their attacks, and all the fights are happening in melee range, then decreasing your opponents damage to 10% and effectively increasing yours to 200% is not really warranted or balanced!

Finally, just to reiterate for you:
I don't believe that the solution to the issue is in removing wings. I think the solution lies in enabling sorcs and NBs to effectivly use Force Pulse, which at least on part of the sorc requires Rune Cage to become a viable stun and not the easy to avoid and teethless shitshow it currently is.
I only suggested to make wings not reflect projectiles within a certain range as an alternative solution. As for the 15m to 20m, see above!

simeion wrote: »

It is pretty stupid to be fighting 1-3 players in melee range and have players at range also damaging you when you as a mDK cannot cloak (nightblade), shield and streak away (sorc), and purge damage (templar). I also am not saying the DK should win in this situation, but you have to give them the tools for what they are designed to do.

I will let you in on a little secret. With shields you don't even have to worry about that ranged guy when more than 1 person is attacking you in melee range. Because shields often already melt when 1 player is hitting them and they evaporate if there are 2 or more people hitting it. Do you know why that is? B/c shields like heals and to some extent your wings are scaled around 1v1 encounters ... well most heals that is (those leeching heals of DKs, Templars, and NBs are ofc not scaled around 1v1). But I can promise you, your Hardened Ward will not last as long as your wings will and neither does it reflect any damage back at the opponent or provide any immunity.

Galarthor wrote: »

simeion wrote: »

Sorry but nothing I said has been shown to be incorrect. The seven meter was a suggestion to introduce a concept.

Why is 20 meter okay? Then a sorc just has to stay out of melee range and with in 20 meters to T-off on a non-mobile class. If the DK get close all the sorc has to do is streak a direction to get the advantage back into their favor. All this does is give Sorc total control. 7 meters put the player in harms way and counter the wings. This put the DK acceptable to a projectile and the range player in range of the DK abilities. How is this not a balanced citation.

20m b/c at that range you can use your gap closer. Don't have a gap closer? Though luck! Nobody expects a ranged class to get away from a melee without a gap opener, so melees should not be able to catch range classes without gap closers either.

simeion wrote: »

Force pulse from range non-felectable. Curse non-reflectable. Wraith non-relectable. Rune cage a cc that drops block for the DKs that don't know how to play DK without doing so. There are great options out there. Pets do a fare amount of damage. With an Asylum destro you apply some good debuffs. There are builds out there that Sorcs can put together and dont have to worry about reflect as much. You have to adapt to the fight.

I already answer why Force Pulse, Curse, Wrath, Rune Cage, and Atro are not really feasible or not enough (depending on the skills) and for the sake of brevity I am not gonna repeat that all in this post again.

As for pet: they take up 2 slots and sorc bar space is already issue as it is. And what they provide is pretty meager for taking up 2 bar slots.

Asylum, is a good weapon, but why it doesn't really work ties back to the issues regarding Force Pulse and Rune Cage addressed above.

simeion wrote: »

Please answer: Why it is okay for a range class to T-off on a melee class with limited mobility? How do you fix this with removing of wings? Make the fight fair, I am all about that. I agree reflect is strong, but it needs to be. Give me a better option or a counter option. What will you replace the ability with that will allow the stand you ground class to do so? Put yourself in the spot and tell me how to make it fair for all?

I really appreciate that you read my previous posts, b/c quite obviously I want to remove wings [/sarcasm]

First, all fights between a melee and a range class are already fought at melee range in this game 99.9% of the time. So there is no real situation where the DK (melee) cannot utilize their skills and is not fighting on home-turf. So wings or not, fights are already taking place in melee range and as such the arguement that you need a counter for all the bombardment you are taking from range is unsubstantiated.

Second, as soon as you are in gap closer range you are fair game. If you don't slot one as a melee then don't expect to get close to the range build, the same way a range build cannot expect to get away from a melee without a gap opener.

Third, DK is by faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar the best toolkit to ensure the oppoenent will stay in melee range. All the roots, stun-toos, and snare make it pretty much impossible for magicka builds to get away from DKs (and let's face it, most projectile builds are magicka builds).

Fourth, DKs already got strong survival tools. How the hell do you survive against all the melee builds whose attacks you cannot reflect? Or range builds whose attacks you cannot reflect? Projectile-based builds have to get through these defenses as well and on top of that they get have to get past the wings that reflect 80% to 90% of their damage back at them. So if you can survive and kill melee builds without reflecting their attacks, and all the fights are happening in melee range, then decreasing your opponents damage to 10% and effectively increasing yours to 200% is not really warranted or balanced!

Finally, just to reiterate for you:
I don't believe that the solution to the issue is in removing wings. I think the solution lies in enabling sorcs and NBs to effectivly use Force Pulse, which at least on part of the sorc requires Rune Cage to become a viable stun and not the easy to avoid and teethless shitshow it currently is.
I only suggested to make wings not reflect projectiles within a certain range as an alternative solution. As for the 15m to 20m, see above!

simeion wrote: »

It is pretty stupid to be fighting 1-3 players in melee range and have players at range also damaging you when you as a mDK cannot cloak (nightblade), shield and streak away (sorc), and purge damage (templar). I also am not saying the DK should win in this situation, but you have to give them the tools for what they are designed to do.

I will let you in on a little secret. With shields you don't even have to worry about that ranged guy when more than 1 person is attacking you in melee range. Because shields often already melt when 1 player is hitting them and they evaporate if there are 2 or more people hitting it. Do you know why that is? B/c shields like heals and to some extent your wings are scaled around 1v1 encounters ... well most heals that is (those leeching heals of DKs, Templars, and NBs are ofc not scaled around 1v1). But I can promise you, your Hardened Ward will not last as long as your wings will and neither does it reflect any damage back at the opponent or provide any immunity.

First off I don't agree with your opinion on Rune Cage. It is amazing. It could be better. Rune needed to be changed to show it being applied and let the player determine if to break early and take full damage for breaking it early or sit in it stunned and take no damage. Magic based characters dont have the stam to dodge roll in and you win against a magDK by pressuring their stam. But this is not about Rune Cage.

20 meters is way to large. It is to easy for a sorc to cast all it non reflectables in that range then get close using streak to cast it reflectables and then get back to range. Fight has to be fair. I agree wings are strong and i am open to changes that still make them effective but puts everyone in a good playing field.

You are absolutely correct no other class can be as effective at locking down there target. I dont run talons. Immobilizing a player with no c/d is completely broken. Mag classes dont have the stam to be dodge rolling every 2+ seconds to move. Streak and cleanse does help but not the correct answer.

You said this above." So wings or not, fights are already taking place in melee range and as such the arguement that you need a counter for all the bombardment you are taking from range is unsubstantiated." Sorry but this is wrong. I get bombarded from range all the time when in a fight I am already in melee range. Every class has done it. Sorcs are just little more dangerous because of their capability to burst all the damage in 1-2 second window.

While chains have a gap closer function it is a horrible skill since the empower rework. You dont like Rune Cage option I dont like the chains.

"So if you can survive and kill melee builds without reflecting their attacks, and all the fights are happening in melee range, then decreasing your opponents damage to 10% and effectively increasing yours to 200% is not really warranted or balanced!"
Where do you get these numbers? Do you have data? You do know that relfected items damage gets recalculated with the reflectors tooltips. I can show you save combat logs where reflected damage with me fighting 2 sorcs was less than 4.5% of my damage. And yet 40% of all my damage was shielded. I personally thought is would be higher but the sorcs took turns moving in and out of range of my damage preventing me from focusing them. It was a well play fight with them to and ended in a draw. I can tell you if I played a sorc (which I plan to very soon) I can keep myself out of melee range of a magDK. Due to inexp of the class I probably not be able to win.

All being said I understand it is very frustrating to play against a magDK. Force Pulse builds using Rune Cage pressure them and you can do that from a distance. Curse is still an amazing skill and your Fury/Wrath works very well with timing burst with a sorc. Rune cage is not very friendly against stamina player who are able to dodge, the skill needs another rework.

In another post i made the suggestion of hard casting frags be non-reflctable. This allow counters on both side. Hard cast can get through wings and the reflector can interrupt. Makes for dynamic game play. If the reflector is a magDk the interrupt pressures the stam pool.

simeion wrote: »

First off I don't agree with your opinion on Rune Cage. It is amazing. It could be better. Rune needed to be changed to show it being applied and let the player determine if to break early and take full damage for breaking it early or sit in it stunned and take no damage. Magic based characters dont have the stam to dodge roll in and you win against a magDK by pressuring their stam. But this is not about Rune Cage.

Huh?
First of all, the bold sentence just makes no sense.
Secondly, you obviously have never been using Rune Cage ...
Also it is quite convenient how there is no counterplay to DK CC, but the CC against DKs HAS TO HAVE COUNTERPLAY. The DK got to have to choice between allowing himself to be stunned or not, but DK stuns always have to hit. Great balancing there. This statement shows that you are not about balance but about keeping your own imbalanced advantages!

And your "pressuring their stam" is also no valid arguement, as sorcs have equally little stamina and way less CC on a viable build than DKs do. Sorc stuns do not also root for free. And the Encase (root) is pretty useless so it is never slotted. Oh and since Rune Cage is not viable, Sorcs can't even stun the DK b/c their flame reach is being reflected and stuns themselves! As you can see, the sorcs stamina is under far more pressure than that of the DK!

simeion wrote: »

20 meters is way to large. It is to easy for a sorc to cast all it non reflectables in that range then get close using streak to cast it reflectables and then get back to range. Fight has to be fair. I agree wings are strong and i am open to changes that still make them effective but puts everyone in a good playing field.

At the Range of 20m the sorc got exactly 1 (let me spell that out for you "O-N-E") global cooldown before the DK can use his full aresenal. And that is is the 1 GCD during which the DK is gap closing. After that the sorcs spends the entire time fighting at a disadvantage in melee range b/c they cannot escape the stuns, roots, and snares from the DK. You are either trolling or clueless if you think Sorcs can permanently stay at range so that DKs cannot hit them.

simeion wrote: »

You are absolutely correct no other class can be as effective at locking down there target. I dont run talons. Immobilizing a player with no c/d is completely broken. Mag classes dont have the stam to be dodge rolling every 2+ seconds to move. Streak and cleanse does help but not the correct answer.

At least we can agree on this one.
Streak does not break Roots, and since you can spam them but you cannot spam streak due to ever-increasing costs, streak can't really get you away from DKs.
Purge is just too expensive to use as often as DKs can root.

simeion wrote: »

You said this above." So wings or not, fights are already taking place in melee range and as such the arguement that you need a counter for all the bombardment you are taking from range is unsubstantiated." Sorry but this is wrong. I get bombarded from range all the time when in a fight I am already in melee range. Every class has done it. Sorcs are just little more dangerous because of their capability to burst all the damage in 1-2 second window.

Well there is no medicine against that. You are fighting mutliple opponents that are in different locations, so unless you can split up into multiple yous, you will always have to finish one fight at the time. Though if there is only 1 ranged build then you can easily gap closer to the ranged guy and simply lock him down with your OP DK toolkit, your melee opponents will follow you and the entire fight is in melee range again. If there are more than 2 range attackers in at least 2 different locations then that obviously doesn't work. But by then you are fighting at least 1v3 and given equal skill levels you should be losing anyway. That means you don't need some broken skill that completely shuts down any ranged build ... especially since there is nothing comparable in any other class (except the broken shimmering shields) or against any other build.

simeion wrote: »

While chains have a gap closer function it is a horrible skill since the empower rework. You dont like Rune Cage option I dont like the chains.

You have to be careful with the comparison here. Rune Cage is not doing its job anymore since everybody can just avoid the stun very easily. A far better comparison would be Streak. That skill also got gutted and I don't really like it. It's clunky, it is self-stunning, it is expensive, it can't do *** if the terrain is not perfectly flat, etc. However, due to the lack of alternatives and the importance of Gap Openers for range builds I am still using it - and the same applies for Chains. They might have been gutted, but Gap Closers are too important to not use them on a melee build. And if you don't have a more viable alternative, then you will have to use that gutted skill - like sorcs are using streak.

simeion wrote: »

"So if you can survive and kill melee builds without reflecting their attacks, and all the fights are happening in melee range, then decreasing your opponents damage to 10% and effectively increasing yours to 200% is not really warranted or balanced!"
Where do you get these numbers? Do you have data? You do know that relfected items damage gets recalculated with the reflectors tooltips. I can show you save combat logs where reflected damage with me fighting 2 sorcs was less than 4.5% of my damage. And yet 40% of all my damage was shielded. I personally thought is would be higher but the sorcs took turns moving in and out of range of my damage preventing me from focusing them. It was a well play fight with them to and ended in a draw. I can tell you if I played a sorc (which I plan to very soon) I can keep myself out of melee range of a magDK. Due to inexp of the class I probably not be able to win.

Numbers are pretty simple. In the current iteration of the game, Force Pulse builds are simply not viable, which means the DK reflects all damage except for the Curse. Yes, I know, now you want to tell me that Fury is also unreflectable, but no one is using Fury at a target that sits well above 90% HP and is not expected to fall anywhere even close to 20% HP anytime soon. So with CFrag and Spammable / Reach and light attacks and heavy attacks (b/c with a single target burst build you have to use Fire Staves) out of the picture and only a meager 3k to 5k damage every 3.5 sec tops, you have essentially reduced the damage output by about 90% - i.e. enemy damage output = 10%.

The 200% incorporates the 90% of the reflected damage plus the boost it gets from wings. Yes I know, only a moron will spamm these attacks non-stop. But even good sorcs will have to take a shot every now and then in the hopes to land the attack before you have refreshed your wings. And in any case the light attacks are always refelcted. So it is more realistic to assume a damage level of roughly 130% on the side of the DK. The 200% just illustrates how imbalanced the fight is. It doesn't quite reach that level in most fights, but that's b/c the sorc or magblade gimp themselves rather than due to the good balancing between projetile builds and wings.

I can show you a combat log where 100% of damage is reflected, b/c the sorc was a moron. I can also show you a combat log where 0% is reflected, b/c the DK did not use wings or was bad at keeping them up. You combat log most likely was from a time when Force Pulse builds were viable. And I keep saying ... this is the crucial point. If magblades and sorcs could use Force Pulse the issue would be mostly resolved. But at least for sorcs that means to buff Rune Cage so that it actually stuns somebody! Or provide another viable stun option.

simeion wrote: »

All being said I understand it is very frustrating to play against a magDK. Force Pulse builds using Rune Cage pressure them and you can do that from a distance. Curse is still an amazing skill and your Fury/Wrath works very well with timing burst with a sorc. Rune cage is not very friendly against stamina player who are able to dodge, the skill needs another rework.

It's not even friendly against targets that cannot dodge that often. Why? B/c even if you stun them, there is nothing to follow the stun up with. It is easily broken in the instant that it drops b/c it has a 1.2 sec delay ... no other stun has that. If you give it a delay at least make sure it sticks. Other stuns give you no time to prepare yourself and they stick guaranteed!

Making Rune Cage undodgable is the most important change sorcs need in pvp. B/c it is the only way to be able to fight perma-dodgers and the only way to resolve the "wings-issue" without gutting the wings completely.

simeion wrote: »

In another post i made the suggestion of hard casting frags be non-reflctable. This allow counters on both side. Hard cast can get through wings and the reflector can interrupt. Makes for dynamic game play. If the reflector is a magDk the interrupt pressures the stam pool.

No offense, but that won't work. There is a reason nobody is casting anything in PvP. Even if hard-casted CFrags were unreflectable, no one would use this feature b/c it is completely impractical. And the interrupts will not even closely pressure the DKs stampool as much as the DKs perma-stun and perma-roots are pressuring the sorcs / magblades stampool.

The only really viable solution is to enable sorcs and magblades to run Force Pulse over Flame Reach again. Everything else would require larger-scale reworks of many different skills and the balance as a whole!

Galarthor wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

And that admission alone is reason enough, why there should not be a skill that indiscriminantly cancels out or suprresses ranged projectiles. You are getting a additional protection in the form of scales which assumes that you will spent a lot of time at range when fighting ranged builds - but this is simply not true. That's why this skill (and shimmering shields for that matter) is so overperforming.

so to this what about warden shield?
maybe it have no reflect but this absorb every projectile while giving back resource and ulti to this warden for every projectile absorbed and here is no expections for beams etc unreflectable etc, it is just projectile now which is fully absorbed

(if someone has significant changed with this skill dont flame me, wasnt looking at it in last days but just saying how atleast it worked last time when I saw this)

I agree. Shimmering Shields are also completely over performing against projectile based builds and also need to be addressed, as it got even less counterplay than Scales. While similarly OP as the scales of the DK, Shimmering Shields are not as detrimental to the enemy players, as they are "just" absorbing the damage, but not also damaging and stunning the opponent - like scales do. But just to reiterate: Both Scales & Shimmering are in desperate need of adjustment as both are designed under the assumption that fights are mostly fought at range when in reality fights are fought at melee range, and a such they are completely overperforming!

lucky_Sage wrote: »

If a dk has 100% uptime on wings they aren't going to be able to kill you. You have mages wrath, curse, force pulse, atro ult if you stay by it it does alot of pressure if they move out they can hit you. Then pets.
Dk sustain isn't good enough to have 100% uptime on wings if it wants kill potential.
I main a dk but I've played every mag class in the game wings is only strong in 1v1 it's is sub par. Unless your 3 bowtards and the dk doesn't have to attack to kill you

First off, you don't need 100% uptime to be unkillable.
Secondly, you can have 100% uptime.
Thirdly, you generally have to use it only every second or thrid global cooldown.
Fourthly, magSorc sustain is even worse than DK sustain.

Finally, as for your "mages fury, curse, force pulse, atro" is enough arguement: see above. I already explained why it's not. However, here is a short summary:
Fury is only good as an execute, basically deals no damage outside of execute range -> no pressure
Curse is a good skill, but takes 3.5 sec to deliver ~5k damage (=1.4k DPS) -> not enough pressure
Force Pulse is a great skill, allows to put pressure on the DK, unfortunately ZOS is forcing the Destructive Reach skill down our throats due to the lack of reliable & potent stun alteratives, which is reflectable -> no pressure, instead self-maiming
Atro, nice skill, if your opponent is mentally-handicapped and stays in range and line of sight to take a beating. However, damage can be quite easily outhealed and people generally move out of range or line of sight very quickly -> not enough pressure

As you can see, all your suggested solutions are either inadequate or outright infeasible. Most crucial problem is and remains the imposition of Destructive Reach through the lack of an adequate class stun. (See above)

Maybe it's a learn to play issue a good sorc can beat a Magdk. But sorc build havnt changed much since frag nerf. 98% of Sorcs play the same cookie cutter builds. The avg sorc is easy to fight because they all play the same. Which part of that is that half of the sorc abilties are reworked like daedric summoning and dark magic. But the best magsorc I ever fought and could never kill him was a 2h magsorc.but your argument on stun you have streak which is a solid strong stun and run cage can still be good against mag build who can dodge.

Then why does Legend, the premier duelling guild on PCNA, expressly ban wings in a DK vs. ranged matchup?

Either they all bad "cookie cutter" players,

or you're just a bad DK who lost to an incredibly gimped Sorc running a utility Forward Momentum build.

I have a pretty good idea which.

Why do people always go to duels when talking about skills? AvA has nothing to do with 1v1. AvA isn't like old kung-fu movies where one person fights you at a time, either.

It seems to always boil down to "Well, I can't single target ranged pewpew you on my setup..." and it comes from either the shield-stacking class (shields which absorb incoming damage from multiple targets) or the cloaking class which can disappear in the blink of an eye.

Gee, I don't know. Maybe b/c the Topic is "Magicka Sorc vs DK Reflective Scales Bookmark". Or maybe b/c a 1v20 isn't really suitable to ascertain how well class A does against class B.

You complain about wings not being strong in AvA and implicitly in 1vX. I will let you in on a little secret: Shields are even worse in these scenarios. A 10k to 12k Shields is not going to survive 4 hits. And neither is it dealing any damage to the enemy or making the sorc immune to snares.

And just to reiterate: I think this problem should be solved on the side of sorcs and magblades, by giving them damage skills that can bypass the wings to put pressure on the DK. Nerfing wings directly doesn't really make sense. If anything I'd give wings some defense against stamina melee builds as well.

The purpose of wings should be that the DK does not get burst down from range before he can react / reach the target. This is achieved by either (1) preventing the burst spikes or (2) having wings only reflect abilities shot from a certain range (i.e. 15m to 20m).

The solution can even be rather simple, e.g.: make Rune Cage viable again. Then sorcs get a non-reflectable spammable in the form of Force Pulse and can put pressure on the DK, but the CFrags are still reflectable so the DK won't get burst down as long as he pays attention.

A similar solution can be found fo magblades.

-> Wings remain unchanged
-> Sorcs and magBlades can fight DKs on equal footing
-> Who wins and who loses does no longer depend on which class you play.

I think the whole making Wings only reflect at a certain range is a possible do-able nerf. My thing is that that isn't the main reason people have been crying and will keep crying about wings. Its a slippery slope to say yes to that change when months down the line people are asking for another nerf all because they are still killing themselves off of wings...

Reupping this thread because the skill is embarassingly OP as *** and alognside Fossizile DESTROYS every single magicka build out there.
"But it can only reflect projectiles!", tell me ANY OTHER skill in the game that counters ENTIRE Builds/Playstyle...easy said than done, there is NONE!

Edziu wrote: »

KurtAngle2 wrote: »

Reupping this thread because the skill is embarassingly OP as *** and alognside Fossizile DESTROYS every single magicka build out there.
"But it can only reflect projectiles!", tell me ANY OTHER skill in the game that counters ENTIRE Builds/Playstyle...easy said than done, there is NONE!

nb cloak

just cloak and go away xD and then return in stealth and attack from nowhere again, if target is not killed then again cloak and away xD

Cloak has MANY counters...there are skills that reveal and ANY AOE literally removes the cloak (don't even get me started enumerating them because they are literally THE MOST SPAMMED skills in game like Steel Tornado)...what is the real counter of Wings? Be a stamina melee class? AHHAHAHA

can we stop acting like this mag dk vs sorc thing is one sided? Please

If your dying to a magdk in cyrodill on Mag sorc, you need a better build. either that or hes one of these zerg dks with max damage and no survivability in witch case they prolly not running wings anyway.

Sorcs have trouble dealing with skilllful Magdks, Magdks can’t do jack *** against a Skillful Mag Sorc.

On my mag dk i usually ignore sorcs and and my magsorc mag dks are just harness magicka fuel.

Mag dks Can’t kill Good sorcs

Sorcs can’t kill good dks.

why does it feel like people who make nerf threads only play one type of character?

Elusiin wrote: »

As a Magicka Sorc, how do I counter the 100% uptime DK's have with reflect scales in PvP? Everything I cast just comes back to me, and then they talons and whip me to death in close combat. I don't feel like this is very balanced.

And to say "everything" you cast comes back is in exaggeration. Frags is your only class skill that comes back. I'm guessing you also run flame clench. So you want the slow DK to sit and take all of your stuff and as soon as he gets close enough to use any of his offensive skills, you streak to keep distance and then continue your attack from range....am I right? Sounds fair. (sense the sarcasm)

Yay Necro's!